BDS and "The Color Purple."

[georgephillip]

Rocco...excuse me for butting in.
Is it accurate the say that in 1948 Mandate Palestine 650,000 Jews and 1.2 million Arabs lived on the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River?

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

The administration of Palestine and Transjordan was separate from the time the time the Mandate was adopted forward. Show me anytime this was not true.

He asked you for references concerning your claim that Transjordan wasn't part of the original Mandate. He provided a source. All you are doing is giving your opinion.

Once again Sherri, the fact that Transjordan was part of the original Mandate is NOT UP FOR DEBATE ...

Since you can't comprehend the what Rocco has posted, this should make it easier for you:

https://www.google.ca/search?q=orig...ource=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=8HW0UcHUJTq0wH9q4H4AQ

Transjordan was carved out of Palestine from the time the Mandate was adopted and was never administered with Palestine. That is not up for debate.

 

[toastman]

Transjordan was part of the original British Mandate before the 1947 UN Partition Plan.

End of story

 

[RoccoR]

georgephillip; et al,

You're not butting-in.

Rocco...excuse me for butting in.
Is it accurate the say that in 1948 Mandate Palestine 650,000 Jews and 1.2 million Arabs lived on the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River?

(COMMENT)

Yes! I won't argue with the numbers (See Page 5: Chapter 1: The Question of Palestine before the United Nations: http://unispal.un.org/pdfs/DPI2499.pdf ), they are close enough for general discussion.

Article 25 did use the Jordan River as a marker for the Western portion versus the Eastern portion. Trans-Jordan was often referred to as the "territories lying between the Jordan and the eastern boundary of Palestine;" leaving what we normally consider the Palestine as West of the Jordan (as you say: Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River).

(SIDEBAR)

The Mandate was concluded in July 1922, made effective in August. During the course of the War, certain promises were made by the Allied Powers to certain Arab Leaders who made a contribution to the war effort. On May 15, 1923, the Emirate of Transjordan (Emir Abdullah) was given formal recognition under Article 25 of the Palestine Mandate (territorial specific), and self-governance under Article 2 of the Palestine Mandate (General Authority). This was the first carve-out of the Mandate for an Arab State. While still subject to the Mandate, the Emirate of Transjordan was largely under self-rule, subject to the oversight of the Mandatory. The Treaty of London (1946) superseded all the previous laws and agreements (Anglo-Transjordan treaty and the Organic Law of 1928), granting full independence, but with a financial dependency on the UK (that would not end until the 1950's). In May 1946, the Emirate of Transjordan became the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan; admitted to the UN in 1955.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

The administration of Palestine and Transjordan was separate from the time the time the Mandate was adopted forward. Show me anytime this was not true.

He asked you for references concerning your claim that Transjordan wasn't part of the original Mandate. He provided a source. All you are doing is giving your opinion.

Once again Sherri, the fact that Transjordan was part of the original Mandate is NOT UP FOR DEBATE ...

Since you can't comprehend the what Rocco has posted, this should make it easier for you:

https://www.google.ca/search?q=orig...ource=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=8HW0UcHUJTq0wH9q4H4AQ

Transjordan was carved out of Palestine from the time the Mandate was adopted and was never administered with Palestine. That is not up for debate.

Palestine and Transjordan were administered as two separate mandates.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Hummm,

Palestine and Transjordan were administered as two separate mandates.

(QUESTION)

Can you point me to the Mandate for Trans-Jordan?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[toastman]

He asked you for references concerning your claim that Transjordan wasn't part of the original Mandate. He provided a source. All you are doing is giving your opinion.

Once again Sherri, the fact that Transjordan was part of the original Mandate is NOT UP FOR DEBATE ...

Since you can't comprehend the what Rocco has posted, this should make it easier for you:

https://www.google.ca/search?q=orig...ource=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=8HW0UcHUJTq0wH9q4H4AQ

Transjordan was carved out of Palestine from the time the Mandate was adopted and was never administered with Palestine. That is not up for debate.

Palestine and Transjordan were administered as two separate mandates.

This statement is 100% false. Plain and simple

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Hummm,

Palestine and Transjordan were administered as two separate mandates.

(QUESTION)

Can you point me to the Mandate for Trans-Jordan?

Most Respectfully,
R

A mincing of words.

The territory was officially under the British Mandate for Palestine but had a fully autonomous governing system from Mandatory Palestine.

Transjordan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They were the same "mandate" but administered separately.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

The*Emirate of Transjordan*(Arabic:*إمارة شرق الأردنImārat Sharq al-Urdun), also hyphenated asTrans-Jordan*and previously known asTransjordania*or*Trans-Jordania, was a*British protectorate*established in April 1921. TheHashemite*dynasty ruled the protectorate as well as the neighbouring protectorate of*Iraq, following the*Cairo Conference. The territory was officially under the*British Mandate for Palestine*but had a fully autonomous governing system from Mandatory Palestine. In 1946, the*Emiratebecame an independent state. The state was renamed to*Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. Transjordan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

We are having arguments largely semantic, essentially what have is British Mandate Palestine that includes from Day 1 of the Mandate two independently administered regions, Mandatory Palestine and Transjordan.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

"This article is about the Mandate instrument passed by the League of Nations granting Britain a mandate over the area currently occupied by Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and Jordan. For a history of the period, see*Mandatory Palestine*and*Transjordan." http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_for_Palestine_(legal_instrument)

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

"The*British Mandate for Palestine, or simply the*Mandate for Palestine, was a*legal commission*for the administration of the territory that had formerly constituted the*OttomanSanjaks*of*Nablus,*Acre, the Southern portion of the*Beirut Vilayet, and the*Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem, prior to the*Armistice of Mudros. The draft of the Mandate was formally confirmed by the Council of the*League of Nations*on 24 July 1922, amended via the 16 September 1922Transjordan memorandum[1][2]*and which came into effect on 29 September 1923[1]*following the ratification of the*Treaty of Lausanne.[3][4]*The mandate ended at midnight on 14 May 1948.The document was based on the principles contained in Article 22 of the draft*Covenant of the League of Nations*and the*San Remo Resolution*of 25 April 1920 by the principal*Allied and associated powers*after the First World War.[1]*The mandate formalised*British*rule in the southern part of*Ottoman Syria*from 1923–1948.The formal objective of the League of Nations Mandate system was to administer parts of the defunct*Ottoman Empire, which had been in control of the Middle East since the 16th century, "until such time as they are able to stand alone."[5]*The mandate document formalised the division of the British protectorates -*Palestine, to include a*national home for the Jewish people, under direct British rule, and*Transjordan, an*Emirate*governed semi-autonomously from Britain under the rule of the*Hashemite*family." [1] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_for_Palestine_(legal_instrument)

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore; et al,

Now who is quibbling?

P F Tinmore, et al,

Hummm,

Palestine and Transjordan were administered as two separate mandates.

(QUESTION)

Can you point me to the Mandate for Trans-Jordan?

Most Respectfully,
R

A mincing of words.

The territory was officially under the British Mandate for Palestine but had a fully autonomous governing system from Mandatory Palestine.

Transjordan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They were the same "mandate" but administered separately.

(COMMENT)

Well, I did not defer to "wikipedia" in search of an answer that could be manipulated into something that I already explained in Postings #71, #95 and #104; as well as, Posting #76 of the The '67 Borders Discussion as to the why.

The first misinterpretation is the claim you (and Sherry) make is that "it was not part of the Mandate of Palestine." It most certainly was part of the Mandate; clearly.

The second misinterpretation is the claim that it was "administered separately" from the Mandate. It was not; it was administered in accordance with Articles 2 and 25 of the Mandate, pursuant to pre-Mandate arrangements made and agreed upon with the HRH Amir Faisal on 3 January 1919, on behalf of the Arab Kingdom of Hejaz.

To suggest that the Emirate was autonomous is not the same as saying it was not under Mandate. The same troops were stationed in the Emirate as were stationed West of the Jordan River. The borders were set, through Arab agreement, by the same commission, and the bills were generally paid by the same government as paid for the administration of West of the Jordan River (financial dependence).
​

To say that between 1922 and 1946 (during the period TransJordan was known as the Emirate of Transjordan) it was administered separately is disingenuous. It would be fair to say that it was administered differently; as I said previously, do to promises made, even before the Treaty of Sevres was concluded, it was agreed that the Emirate would not be considered part of the land apportionment for the Jewish National Home. So those aspects of the Mandate for Palestine were not were not applied to the Administration. However, the agreement between the made Arab Leadership on behalf of the Arab Kingdom of Hejaz (later to be known as Saudi Arabia) did agree to "encourage and stimulate immigration of Jews into Palestine on a large scale, and as quickly as possible to settle Jewish immigrants." (Or as you say, the "foreigns" were invited by the Arab Leadership.) All this was done under the Mandate for Palestine as the tool to the agreement made by the Arab Leadership.

To be administered differently under the same tool, is not the same as being administered separately under a different tool --- as you and Sherry claimed. It is like using a claw hammer. Same tool; but one side of the head puts the nail in, the other side pulls the nail out --- but it is the same tool; by the same user, for ultimately the same job. (No quibbling with the facts required!)

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

"The boundaries of the Palestine Mandate were not defined when it was awarded in April 1920 at the*San Remo conference. In a telegram to the Foreign Office summarising the conclusions of the San Remo conference, the Foreign Secretary, Lord Curzon, stated: "The boundaries will not be defined in Peace Treaty but are to be determined at a later date by principal Allied Powers". When Samuel set up the civil mandatory government in mid-1920 he was explicitly instructed by Curzon that his jurisdiction did not include Transjordan.[36] " http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_for_Palestine(legal_instrument)

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Administration of governments within Mandatory Palestine and Transjordan were separate from the beginning of the British Mandate and throughout the entire Mandate. Mandatory Palestine never included Transjordan and Transjordan never included Mandatory Palestine.

 

[RoccoR]

SherriMunnerlyn; et al,

Yes, agreed.

"The boundaries of the Palestine Mandate were not defined when it was awarded in April 1920 at the*San Remo conference. In a telegram to the Foreign Office summarising the conclusions of the San Remo conference, the Foreign Secretary, Lord Curzon, stated: "The boundaries will not be defined in Peace Treaty but are to be determined at a later date by principal Allied Powers". When Samuel set up the civil mandatory government in mid-1920 he was explicitly instructed by Curzon that his jurisdiction did not include Transjordan.[36] " http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_for_Palestine(legal_instrument)

(COMMENT)

This is exactly the same position I've posted several times. It comes from Article 95 of the Treaty, which I've posted many times. But in fact, it was an arrangement made in 1919 by agreement with the Arab Leadership; NOT the 1920 San Remo Conference which merely summarizes several agreements.

It is a very short agreement but had enormous consequences.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Hossfly]

hoss thinks a "worse" atrocity always justifies a lesser atrocity...and all for the greater glory of god.

No, Hoss recognizes a bunch of phony baloney when he sees it, but you close your eyes to whatever you don't want to know, and this has been going on for years by you..
South African lawmaker: Israel NOT an apartheid state - Israel Today | Israel News

Do you recognize a lie when you see it?

Your link:

"In my numerous visits to Israel, I did not see any of the above," stated Meshoe. "Black, brown and white Jews and the Arab minority mingle freely in all public places, universities, restaurants, voting stations and public transportation. All people have the right to vote."

In fact only a minority of Arabs living between the River and the sea have the right to vote for those writing the laws they currently live under. Is Meshoe calling for one person; one vote in Palestine?

Are you?

Sorry to take so long in answering you, Georgie Boy. Instead of sitting in a one-room apartment, I was out with some old buddies having a good time. It's really fun to actually have conversations with real human beings in person. Try it some time. Meanwhile, all citizens of Israel have the right to vote. Those living in the territories are not citizens of Israel, and they can vote in their own elections, I have a great idea. Why don't you take a bus down to Watts or Compton and ask your friends to contribute something to their brethren in Africa to make the lives of these Africans in need more comfortable since you seem so concerned about people?

 

[Hossfly]

You and "Brand Israel" are the prime bologna on this thread, Hossie:

Palestine Conditions "More brutal" than in U.S. South 50 Years Ago | Alice Walker | The Official Website for the American Novelist & Poet

How many hours did you donate today to those in "dire need?"

Just whom do you think you are kidding, Georgie Boy, when it is obvious that your eyes are really closed to what is actually going on in the Arab world when it comes to the abuses and murder of innocent people. And, Georigie Boy, why not read up about this so-called Israel apartheid from those who actually lived under apartheid in South Africa, or perhaps it is too much trouble for you to learn the truth.

Your crocodile tears over the many abuses and murder of innocent people in the Arab world seems hypocritical since they serve primarily as a deflection against documented instances of Israeli apartheid in Palestine, or maybe I've missed the many threads you've started on Arab atrocities in Sudan and Somalia?

"In a 2007 report, United Nations Special Rapporteur for Palestine John Dugard stated that 'elements of the Israeli occupation constitute forms of colonialism and of apartheid, which are contrary to international law' and suggested that the 'legal consequences of a prolonged occupation with features of colonialism and apartheid' be put to the International Court of Justice.[36]

"In 2009 South Africa's statutory research agency the Human Sciences Research Council (HSRC) published a report stating that 'the State of Israel exercises control in the [Occupied Palestinian Territories] with the purpose of maintaining a system of domination by Jews over Palestinians and that this system constitutes a breach of the prohibition of apartheid.'"

Can you refute the claim that Jews currently enforce a system of domination over Arabs living between the River and the sea?

Israel and the apartheid analogy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Don't give me this baloney about crocodile tears, Georgie Boy. Do you really think that everyone here, the posters and the viewers alike, think you would be even posting about the "poor Palestinians" if the Jews were not involved. So tell us, since you have all the time in the world, how many forums are you actually on condemning what is happening to innocent people in the Muslim world. Why not list these forums for us so we can check out what you are saying since you want us to believe that you are this "great" humanitarian who is concerned for all?

 

[Hossfly]

Warning Graphic Images in Video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZRdUWEx8a8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

For a period of time this video could be watched in full, but I notice now you can only watch a preview and have to pay a rental fee to watch the full documentary. It can also be purchased online, and TShirts are also being sold online.

How come your friends never see fit to make videos about what is happening to innocent people in Muslims countries? Is it because the Jews are not involved so that they actually don't care what happens to these innocent people -- no matter how many are murdered? I think any intelligent person can see how big this Arab propaganda machine is by now. It's a good thing (much to Frau Sherri's annoyance) that there are Christian groups operating in different Muslim countries that are able to keep people apprised of just what is happening, and there is someone like Raymond Ibrahim to collect all this information.
Raymond Ibrahim's Articles | Human Events

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

"G4S’ involvement in the detention of Palestinian children in Israeli jails dominated the company’s Annual General Meeting (AGM) on Thursday 6th June, overshadowing all other business, including last year’s Olympic security fiasco, said Palestinian Solidarity Campaign (PSC) in a press release.Throughout the two hour AGM, Palestinian solidarity campaigners demanded to know when G4S would be ending its contracts with Israeli prisons, where Palestinian children, women and men are held, often without trial, and routinely tortured.Of the 16 questions asked by shareholders, seven were about G4S’ Israeli prison contracts.Campaigners holding shares were dotted amongst the total of 60 shareholders.Activists from PSC made it clear to new CEO, Ashley Almanza, and the G4S board that the torture of children is ‘absolutely prohibited’ under international law and yet is documented as taking place at Al Jalame prison in Israel.*" G4S Annual General Meeting Dominated by Controversy Over Israeli Prison Contracts ? International Middle East Media Center | Ramy Abdeljabbar's Palestine and World News A Continuing BDS Success Story! Go BDS!