Bridge the gap between Israel and Palestine?

[The Rabbi]

It can't, because that statement about immigration is not true. Nor is there any official designation of a state religion. A 'state religion' is a different matter entirely from simply a majority of citizens being nominal adherents of one religion.

There is difficulty enough in seeking to communicate by 'printed' words only: let's not exacerbate the obstacles to discussion by being sloppy in using those words. Please, it will only make communication more difficult and distract from the discussion.

All Jews are allowed to immigrate to Israel. No questions asked.

No other religious group has such a benefit.

Jews who immigrate to Israel also get all sorts of financial benefits, that NO OTHER immigrants can get.

That's sort of the case. The state interprets "Jewish" to mean at least one Jewish grandparent. That has led to many many Russians sometimes fabricating a Jewish grandparent to get there. Obviously a person whose mother is not Jewish is not Jewish themselves, barring conversion. So the state has let in a lot of non Jews masquerading as Jews.

 

[whitehall]

Palestinians live in peace in Israel. Israelis are persecuted and murdered in jihad occupied countries. What does that tell you about the situation?

 

[Hyrcanus]

Palestinians live in peace in Israel. Israelis are persecuted and murdered in jihad occupied countries. What does that tell you about the situation?

when's the last time an Israeli was "murdered" in a "jihad occupied" country?

 

[Auteur]

There is no good faith with a radical that want you to cease existing. The problems there extend far beyond Israel’s militarism or Palestinians claims over land. There is generational hate and as we should well know at this point, there is nothing you can do with someone that fervently believes you have no business existing. War has racked that place for a very long time and there is nothing that America can accomplish that will force that area into peace other that simply eliminating one of the sides. Such is not a solution worth discussing.

The genocide card is one that Israel has played continuously- and shamelessly- since the 1940's. In times of high stress, such as war, people will make extreme statements, especially in the Arab world, which tends more towards hyperbole. At times, prominent Jews have made similar statements about wiping out the Palestinians.

I think it is important to look towards more responsible people and institutions. Today the Arab League, and the PA, have a position that urges peace based on 1967 boundaries, with minor adjustments here and there as required, establishment of trade and normal relations, and some sort of just resolution of the Arab refugee issue. This latter has been left open, and may mean compensation rather than massive return of a population. It is a reasonable deal, and is a heck of a long way from "genocide".

The image of Jews being slaughtered wholesale has been a tool to obtain favor in the US, and a very successful one. It is an insult, when you think about it, to the millions of Jews who actually were slaughtered in WW2.

Please provide some factual information to support your contentions, with citations. I was unaware that either the AL or the PA/PLO had retracted their so-clearly stated and repeated objective of removing Israel completely.

As a newby, apparently I can't provide links for the first few posts. However, here is a piece from the BBC that describes the Saudi peace initiative, one later widely adopted in the Arab world. My previous post quoted policy from the PA's website, which is essentially the same.

This is the official translation of the Saudi-proposed Arab peace initiative adopted at the annual Arab League Summit in Beirut in 2002.
The Council of the League of Arab States at the Summit Level, at its 14th Ordinary Session,
- Reaffirming the resolution taken in June 1996 at the Cairo Extra-Ordinary Arab Summit that a just and comprehensive peace in the Middle East is the strategic option of the Arab Countries, to be achieved in accordance with International Legality, and which would require a comparable commitment on the part of the Israeli Government.
- Having listened to the statement made by His Royal Highness Prince Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz, the Crown Prince of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia in which his Highness presented his Initiative, calling for full Israeli withdrawal from all the Arab territories occupied since June 1967, in implementation of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, reaffirmed by the Madrid Conference of 1991 and the land for peace principle, and Israel's acceptance of an independent Palestinian State, with East Jerusalem as its capital, in return for the establishment of normal relations in the context of a comprehensive peace with Israel.
- Emanating from the conviction of the Arab countries that a military solution to the conflict will not achieve peace or provide security for the parties, the council:
1. Requests Israel to reconsider its policies and declare that a just peace is its strategic option as well.
2. Further calls upon Israel to affirm:
a. Full Israeli withdrawal from all the territories occupied since 1967, including the Syrian Golan Heights to the lines of June 4, 1967 as well as the remaining occupied Lebanese territories in the south of Lebanon.
b. Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian Refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with UN General Assembly Resolution 194.
c. The acceptance of the establishment of a Sovereign Independent Palestinian State on the Palestinian territories occupied since the 4th of June 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza strip, with East Jerusalem as its capital.
3. Consequently, the Arab Countries affirm the following:
a. Consider the Arab-Israeli conflict ended, and enter into a peace agreement with Israel, and provide security for all the states of the region.
b. Establish normal relations with Israel in the context of this comprehensive peace.
4. Assures the rejection of all forms of Palestinian patriation which conflict with the special circumstances of the Arab host countries.
5. Calls upon the Government of Israel and all Israelis to accept this initiative in order to safeguard the prospects for peace and stop the further shedding of blood, enabling the Arab Countries and Israel to live in peace and good neighborliness and provide future generations with security, stability, and prosperity.
6. Invites the International Community and all countries and Organizations to support this initiative.
7. Requests the Chairman of the Summit to form a special committee composed of some of its concerned member states and the Secretary General of the League of Arab States to pursue the necessary contacts to gain support for this initiative at all levels, particularly from the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States of America, the Russian Federation, the Muslim States and the European Union.

When needing to make a point, it is usually easy to find extremists whose actions discredit their society, and hence support one's own negative views. There are no shortage of such individuals in Arab societies. But to be fair, they're not alone. The US, for example, would be an easy target if the world took the maunderings of Ron Paul, or Sara Palin very seriously.

 

[whitehall]

Palestinians live in peace in Israel. Israelis are persecuted and murdered in jihad occupied countries. What does that tell you about the situation?

when's the last time an Israeli was "murdered" in a "jihad occupied" country?

Read Brigitte Gabriel's book "Because they Hate" for a primer on radical jihad hatred. When was the last time an Israeli strapped on a bomb vest and invaded a Mosque? Never?

 

[Hyrcanus]

Read Brigitte Gabriel's book "Because they Hate" for a primer on radical jihad hatred. When was the last time an Israeli strapped on a bomb vest and invaded a Mosque? Never?

Remember the massacre at the Hebron Tomb?

 

[The Rabbi]

Read Brigitte Gabriel's book "Because they Hate" for a primer on radical jihad hatred. When was the last time an Israeli strapped on a bomb vest and invaded a Mosque? Never?

Remember the massacre at the Hebron Tomb?

Roundly condemned by most Israelis.
What kind of condemnation came from Palestinians when they murdered the two reservists in Ramallah?

 

[whitehall]

Read Brigitte Gabriel's book "Because they Hate" for a primer on radical jihad hatred. When was the last time an Israeli strapped on a bomb vest and invaded a Mosque? Never?

Remember the massacre at the Hebron Tomb?

Roundly condemned by most Israelis.
What kind of condemnation came from Palestinians when they murdered the two reservists in Ramallah?

Which one? In 1929 Arabs slaughtered 64 Jews. In 1996 a crazed Jew killed 30 Palestinians. The difference is that the 1929 atrocity was a state authorized killing and the 1996 killings was a criminal act. Do jihad cheer leaders recognize the difference?

 

[TemplarKormac]

How many Palestinians have Israeli "extremists" killed? How many Israelis by Palestinians? Calling some Palestinians "extremists" implies that there are Palestinian moderates. There are not. They are all extremists. They are all terrorists. It is nice to play the "equivalence" card but the truth is there is no equivalence. Israelis kill Palestinians because Palestinians kill Israelis. If Palestinians dont want to be killed they should stop killing Israelis.
The solution is what would happen in any other area. Everyone should butt out and the Israelis should turn the cameras off and do what they need to do.

All Palestinians are terrorists? That's a pretty stupid and racist statement.

What do YOU think the Israelis should do to solve this problem?

Kill them all? Force them all into Jordan?

Getting Palestine to stop proclaiming their "right of return" would be a good thing for starters. Israel has the legitimate rights to all the land it won fair and square during the Six Day War and the Yom Kippur war, as well as the First, Second and Third Intifadas. I believe they have a right to all the land granted them by the Balfour Declaration. In fact, Arabs began selling land to the Jewish as early as the 1920s. It wasn't till later that the Grand Mufti Haj Amin Al Husseini (an Arab Nazi Collaborator) issued fatwas commanding Arabs to massacre Jews in the settlements they had originally given to the Zionists. Secondly, we can get them to ditch the "disproportionate force" contention. When you attack a superior military force, you are asking for heavy casualties.

 

[TemplarKormac]

A good example of Palestine's unwillingness to negotiate with Israel came on Halloween Day of 2011, when I wrote this article:

October 31, 2011

Palestinian Rocket Attacks Continue for Second Straight Day Sunday

For those of you who think that we/Israel can negotiate a pact with Palestine, think again. A rogue Islamic Jihadist cell was caught red handed yesterday trying to fire rockets into the country. The militant movement responsible within Palestine for launching rockets into Ashdod paid the price. Those who are responsible for the death of a man in Ashkelon also paid the price. For those of you who think Palestine wont stop trying to kill Israel, a little self introspection on your part may be required. I stand with Israel in her quest for defending her right to exist and be left alone.

I commend the Israeli Defense Force for executing its duty to protect the Israeli people.

IDF aircraft strike rocket launching cell in Gaza | JPost | Israel News

Ashkelon rocket victim dies - Israel News, Ynetnews

Palestinian Rocket Attacks Continue for Second Straight Day Sunday | AthensTalks.com

And yes I still support Israel's right as a sovereign nation to defend herself. I might be a libertarian, but I am no fool. I was a different person on this board, the name "RightWingExtremist" no longer applies to me anymore.

 

[georgephillip]

Remember the massacre at the Hebron Tomb?

Roundly condemned by most Israelis.
What kind of condemnation came from Palestinians when they murdered the two reservists in Ramallah?

Which one? In 1929 Arabs slaughtered 64 Jews. In 1996 a crazed Jew killed 30 Palestinians. The difference is that the 1929 atrocity was a state authorized killing and the 1996 killings was a criminal act. Do jihad cheer leaders recognize the difference?

When did the British state authorize the killing of 133 Jews in 1929 Palestine?

"The 1929 Palestine riots, also known as the Western Wall Uprising, the 1929 Massacres... refers to a series of demonstrations and riots in late August 1929 when a long-running dispute between Muslims and Jews over access to the Western Wall in Jerusalem escalated into violence.

"The riots took the form in the most part of attacks by Arabs on Jews accompanied by destruction of Jewish property.

"During the week of riots from 23 to 29 August 133 Jews were killed by Arabs and 339 others were injured, while 110 Arabs were killed by British police and 232 were injured while the British were trying to suppress the riots..."

"Avraham Sela described the riots as 'unprecedented in the history of the Arab-Jewish conflict in Palestine, in duration, geographical scope and direct damage to life and property.'"

1929 Palestine riots - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unprecedented until 1948 when 650,000 Jews imposed their nation by force of arms on 1.2 million Arabs in Palestine.

 

[The Rabbi]

Actually the UN imposed it. But facts are not the friends of anti Semites ever.

 

[georgephillip]

I thought the UN took over from His Majesty?

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Lipush]

Palestinians live in peace in Israel. Israelis are persecuted and murdered in jihad occupied countries. What does that tell you about the situation?

when's the last time an Israeli was "murdered" in a "jihad occupied" country?

Remember her?

She's still looking for justice.

 

[Hyrcanus]

Remember her?

She's still looking for justice.

and that is?

 

[Hyrcanus]

I thought the UN took over from His Majesty?

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some folks argue that Israel has the right to settle Jews throughout the entire West Bank, because the Balfour Declaration and the Palestine Mandate called for Jewish settlement in all of Palestine...and somehow the Palestine Mandate is still valid 63 years after it expired.

However, the Palestine Mandate and the Balfour Declaration ALSO says that Jewish settlement in Palestine will be allowed as long as nothing is done that prejudices the civil and religious rights of non-Jewish communities in Palestine.

Israel, has clearly violated that clause.

 

[The Rabbi]

I thought the UN took over from His Majesty?

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some folks argue that Israel has the right to settle Jews throughout the entire West Bank, because the Balfour Declaration and the Palestine Mandate called for Jewish settlement in all of Palestine...and somehow the Palestine Mandate is still valid 63 years after it expired.

However, the Palestine Mandate and the Balfour Declaration ALSO says that Jewish settlement in Palestine will be allowed as long as nothing is done that prejudices the civil and religious rights of non-Jewish communities in Palestine.

Israel, has clearly violated that clause.

"Clearly"=I have no proof.
A strawman argument if there ever was one. Israel conquered those territories and needs them for its legitimate security concerns.

 

[Hyrcanus]

"Clearly"=I have no proof.
A strawman argument if there ever was one. Israel conquered those territories and needs them for its legitimate security concerns.

You "clearly" don't know what a strawman argument is.

Israel's various rules and regulations for the Palestinians in the West Bank discriminate against them constantly.

THEIR homes and farms are torn apart to build walls and roads for the Jews, while Israelis are protected by the IDF and receive generous government subsidies to biuld their homes and infrastructure.

Even worse, the Israel govt. is now trying to retro-actively legalize Jewish settlements that were built without any permits.

When was the last time Israel attempted to retro-atcively grant building permits to Palestinian construction?

Israel has violated the respect & protection for Gentile communities clause of the Palestine Mandate.

 

[georgephillip]

I thought the UN took over from His Majesty?

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some folks argue that Israel has the right to settle Jews throughout the entire West Bank, because the Balfour Declaration and the Palestine Mandate called for Jewish settlement in all of Palestine...and somehow the Palestine Mandate is still valid 63 years after it expired.

However, the Palestine Mandate and the Balfour Declaration ALSO says that Jewish settlement in Palestine will be allowed as long as nothing is done that prejudices the civil and religious rights of non-Jewish communities in Palestine.

Israel, has clearly violated that clause.

"Clearly"=I have no proof.
A strawman argument if there ever was one. Israel conquered those territories and needs them for its legitimate security concerns.

Since Israel's "conquest" occurred after 1949 the Jewish state is violating the international law by settling its civilians in territories it occupies:

"The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."

Israel would have have fewer "legitimate security concerns" if it stopped stealing land and water from its neighbors. (not to mention using Arab children for target practice)

Fourth Geneva Convention - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[The Rabbi]

"Clearly"=I have no proof.
A strawman argument if there ever was one. Israel conquered those territories and needs them for its legitimate security concerns.

You "clearly" don't know what a strawman argument is.

Israel's various rules and regulations for the Palestinians in the West Bank discriminate against them constantly.

THEIR homes and farms are torn apart to build walls and roads for the Jews, while Israelis are protected by the IDF and receive generous government subsidies to biuld their homes and infrastructure.

Even worse, the Israel govt. is now trying to retro-actively legalize Jewish settlements that were built without any permits.

When was the last time Israel attempted to retro-atcively grant building permits to Palestinian construction?

Israel has violated the respect & protection for Gentile communities clause of the Palestine Mandate.

If you dont think you engaged in a strawman argument with that last post I have news fro you.
Israel discriminates against Palestinians who try to kill Israelis. It discriminates against Palestinians who aid and abet those trying to kill Israelis. It protects Palestinians otherwise. Israelis are citizens of Israel. Of course the IDF protects them (although settlers in the Gaza might have a different view). Palis in the territories are not Israeli citizens. See the difference?