Capitalism Guarantees Rising Inequality

There is no law forcing you to live with a den of thieves, you are free to move about the country to find and make your opportunities.

Laws are not the only means of getting people to obey. Having never grown up in poverty one will not know that the opportunity to choose to leave the neighborhood or stay is not there.

Peer pressure, social pressure, going where the money is (crime) can constrict one's innate ability to choose liberty. Indeed, they can leads to bad decisions and it's often because people are ill informed. Our education system panders to wealth just like opportunities to work do. Though more service jobs exist than ever, they are often shameful and are dead end.

There is so much that can be said here but if you are unwilling to recognize the disparity in this country is not just income, it runs all the way down into the psyche. I know because I grew up in it and have been homeless. If you haven't lived that way you simply have no genuine idea what really means and what the causes are. You hear others who've never been homeless talk about it but that's as good as the info gets. It's an entirely different world to be in poverty, it's plain and simple and no one is willing to try that because poverty is not inviting.

59% of Americans will experience poverty for a year or more. If you haven't then you aren't part of the majority of people. You may want to recalibrate your understanding to account for the breadth of this problem. It's a human problem stemming from bad policy and greed. There is a war going on against the poor and working class. The 2 minute video explains this with rigor.
War on the Poor
Their War on the Poor

"Most Americans are on a downward escalator. Median household pay is dropping, adjusted for inflation. A smaller share of working-age Americans are in jobs than at any time in the last three decades.

Only 113,000 jobs were added to the U.S. economy in January, on top of a paltry 75,000 in December.

"We need a new WPA to rebuild the nation's crumbling infrastructure, a higher minimum wage, strong unions, investments in education, and extended unemployment benefits for those who still can't find a job.

"When 95% of the economic gains go to the top 1%, the middle class and poor don't have the purchasing power to keep it going."

"Most Americans are on a downward escalator. Median household pay is dropping, adjusted for inflation. A smaller share of working-age Americans are in jobs than at any time in the last three decades.

Obama and Obamacare, killing jobs, shrinking incomes, all across America.
 
Laws are not the only means of getting people to obey. Having never grown up in poverty one will not know that the opportunity to choose to leave the neighborhood or stay is not there.

Peer pressure, social pressure, going where the money is (crime) can constrict one's innate ability to choose liberty. Indeed, they can leads to bad decisions and it's often because people are ill informed. Our education system panders to wealth just like opportunities to work do. Though more service jobs exist than ever, they are often shameful and are dead end.

There is so much that can be said here but if you are unwilling to recognize the disparity in this country is not just income, it runs all the way down into the psyche. I know because I grew up in it and have been homeless. If you haven't lived that way you simply have no genuine idea what really means and what the causes are. You hear others who've never been homeless talk about it but that's as good as the info gets. It's an entirely different world to be in poverty, it's plain and simple and no one is willing to try that because poverty is not inviting.

59% of Americans will experience poverty for a year or more. If you haven't then you aren't part of the majority of people. You may want to recalibrate your understanding to account for the breadth of this problem. It's a human problem stemming from bad policy and greed. There is a war going on against the poor and working class. The 2 minute video explains this with rigor.
War on the Poor
Their War on the Poor

"Most Americans are on a downward escalator. Median household pay is dropping, adjusted for inflation. A smaller share of working-age Americans are in jobs than at any time in the last three decades.

Only 113,000 jobs were added to the U.S. economy in January, on top of a paltry 75,000 in December.

"We need a new WPA to rebuild the nation's crumbling infrastructure, a higher minimum wage, strong unions, investments in education, and extended unemployment benefits for those who still can't find a job.

"When 95% of the economic gains go to the top 1%, the middle class and poor don't have the purchasing power to keep it going."

"Most Americans are on a downward escalator. Median household pay is dropping, adjusted for inflation. A smaller share of working-age Americans are in jobs than at any time in the last three decades.

Obama and Obamacare, killing jobs, shrinking incomes, all across America.

Another example of the superhuman powers of the private sector markets. They can predict legislation decades in advance!

:eek:
 
Their War on the Poor

"Most Americans are on a downward escalator. Median household pay is dropping, adjusted for inflation. A smaller share of working-age Americans are in jobs than at any time in the last three decades.

Only 113,000 jobs were added to the U.S. economy in January, on top of a paltry 75,000 in December.

"We need a new WPA to rebuild the nation's crumbling infrastructure, a higher minimum wage, strong unions, investments in education, and extended unemployment benefits for those who still can't find a job.

"When 95% of the economic gains go to the top 1%, the middle class and poor don't have the purchasing power to keep it going."

"Most Americans are on a downward escalator. Median household pay is dropping, adjusted for inflation. A smaller share of working-age Americans are in jobs than at any time in the last three decades.

Obama and Obamacare, killing jobs, shrinking incomes, all across America.

Another example of the superhuman powers of the private sector markets. They can predict legislation decades in advance!

:eek:

The situation today has nothing to do with your misunderstanding of markets or your poor reading skills.
Obamacare and the loss of jobs it caused didn't have to be predicted decades ago to hurt us today.
 
Where is Democracy to be found in a world where the three richest individuals have assets that exceed the combined GDP of 47 countries?

A world where the richest 2% of global citizens "own" more than 51% of global assets?

Ready for the best part?

Capitalism ensures an already bad problem will only get worse.


"The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) states that income inequality 'first started to rise in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s in America and Britain (and also in Israel)'.

"The ratio between the average incomes of the top 5 per cent to the bottom 5 per cent in the world increased from 78:1 in 1988, to 114:1 in 1993..."

"Stiglitz relays that from 1988 to 2008 people in the world’s top 1 per cent saw their incomes increase by 60 per cent, while those in the bottom 5 per cent had no change in their income.

"In America, home to the 2008 recession, from 2009 to 2012, incomes of the top 1 per cent in America, many of which no doubt had a greedy hand in the causes of the meltdown, increased more than 31 per cent, while the incomes of the 99 per cent grew 0.4 per cent less than half a percentage point."

Spotlight on Worldwide Inequality

There are alternatives that don't require infinite "growth."

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Voodoo wrecked and IS WRECKING the nonrich to the point where demand for products and services has dried up, along with their savings...before the corruption and cronyism housing and credit meltdown of 2008- while the rich have quadrupled their wealth...

Memorize the facts, hater dupes:

1. WORKERS past 63 years worker productivity has grown by 2.0% per year.But after 1980, workers received a smaller share every year. Labor’s share of income (1992 = 100%):1950 = 101%1960 = 105%1970 = 105%1980 = 105% – Reagan1990 = 100%2000 = 96%2007 = 92%A 13% drop since 1980A 13% drop since 1980

2. THE TOP 10% GET A LARGER SHARE.Share of National Income going to Top 10%:1950 = 35%1960 = 34%1970 = 34%1980 = 34% – Reagan1990 = 40%2000 = 47%2007 = 50% TO MAKE UP FOR THE LOSS.Household Debt as percentage of GDP:1965 = 46%1970 = 45%1980 = 50% – Reagan1990 = 61%2000 = 69%2007 = 95% An increase of 16% since Reagan.

3. WORKERS COMPENSATED FOR THE LOSS OF INCOME BY SPENDING THEIR SAVINGS.The savings Rose up to Reagan and fell during and after.1950 = 6.0%1960 = 7.0%1970 = 8.5%1980 = 10.0% – Reagan1982 = 11.2% – Peak1990 = 7.0%2000 = 2.0%2006 = -1.1% (Negative = withdrawing from savings)

4. Household Debt as percentage of GDP:1965 = 46%1970 = 45%1980 = 50% – Reagan1990 = 61%2000 = 69%2007 = 95%A 45% increase after 1980.

5. SO THE GAP BETWEEN THE RICHEST AND THE POOREST HAS GROWN.Gap Between the Share of Capital Income earned by the top 1%and the bottom 80%:1980 = 10%2003 = 56%A 5.6 times increase.

6. AND THE AMERICAN DREAM IS GONE.The Probabilityy of Moving Up from the Bottom 40% to the Top 40%:1945 = 12%1958 = 6%1990 = 3%2000 = 2%A 10% Decrease.

Links:1 = ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/pf/totalf1.txt1 = https://www.clevelandfed.org/Researc...s/No7Nov04.pdf1 = Clipboard01.jpg (image)2 – Congratulations to Emmanuel Saez | The White House3 = http://www.demos.org/inequality/imag...ving_thumb.gif3 = http://www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/...&LastYear=20104 = http://www.prudentbear.com/index.php...or-debt-of-gdp4 = FRB: Z.1 Release--Financial Accounts of the United States--June 6, 20135/6 = Wealth And Inequality In America - Business Insiderhttp://factleft.com/2011/03/28/the-demise-of-the-american-middle-class-in-numbers/
 
Obamacare will help people who don't want to work just to have health care cut back, quit, and retire, opening up jobs for the UE. THAT'S ACTUAL FREEDOM, hater dupes lol...
 
Obamacare will help people who don't want to work just to have health care cut back, quit, and retire, opening up jobs for the UE. THAT'S ACTUAL FREEDOM, hater dupes lol...

Obamacare will also help people who want to work get cut back to part time.

Thanks for fucking up the economy, even more.
 
WAP20140129503_md.jpg


Inequality Myopia

There's more to it than Democrats care to know.

By Ron Ross – 2.6.14
SmallerLarger

...

At least in their rhetoric, Democrats have made equality their number one priority. It has become more an obsession than a policy objective. Mother Jones contributor Kevin Drum writes, “The heart and soul of liberalism is economic egalitarianism.” According to Jon N. Hall, “For progressives, equality is an end in itself, and a higher value than freedom, happiness, or prosperity.”

Furthermore, liberals have a one-dimensional vision of equality. Virtually the only kind of inequality they ever address is income inequality. The human experience, however, is multi-faceted.

If it were possible to create conditions that would result in equal incomes for all Americans, there would still be wide differences in intelligence, athletic ability, health, ambition, and beauty, just to name a few. If we all had equal incomes, we would not all magically feel equal. Equality of incomes does not equal equality, and equality does not equal fairness.

For liberals it is an article of faith that income inequality is increasing in America. They cite statistics indicating as much. Nevertheless, those statistics are themselves over-simplifications. Such statistics usually hide at least as much as they reveal. Economist Walter Williams observes that “Most of what’s said about income inequality is stupid or, at best, ill-informed.”

...

Exaggerating and over-emphasizing negative news while ignoring positive news is not a harmless endeavor. The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation just released “The 2014 Gates Annual Letter.” They title it “3 Myths That Block Progress for the Poor.” Here is how they summarize their letter:

By almost any measure, the world is better than it has ever been. People are living longer, healthier lives. Many nations that were aid recipients are now self-sufficient. You might think that such striking progress would be widely celebrated, but in fact, Melinda and are I are struck by how many people think the world is getting worse. The belief that the world can’t solve extreme poverty and disease isn’t just mistaken. It is harmful. That’s why in this year’s letter we take apart some of the myths that slow down the work. The next time you hear these myths, we hope you will do the same.

That’s excellent advice. I wonder, however, if the Gates have asked themselves why there are so many people who think the world is getting worse? It’s in large part because creating the myth serves the purposes of liberal politicians.

...

In a number of speeches President Obama has referred to “millionaires and billionaires,” with contempt and resentment practically dripping from those words. The resentment toward “the one percent” is driven primarily by envy rather than actually wanting to do something for the poor. Envy is not a sound foundation for public policy. The left apparently is bothered more by the existence of rich people than by the existence of poor people. They subscribe to the absurd belief that wealth causes poverty.

...

When it comes to addressing the issue, Democrat policies increase the amount of inequality rather than reduce it. Inequality is a problem liberals would rather hype than solve.

Inequality Myopia | The American Spectator
 
Saying Obamacare is the main problem distracts from the fact the top 1% is siphoning off most of the profits generated by capitalism. It's a way to instill division when the real issues are happening behind closed doors and right under our noses. The media has successfully hijacked our understanding of what's high priority and what isn't.

I can agree Obamacare is not the best piece of legislation but having become a beneficiary and can finally get my rotting teeth checked, Naturally Obamacare has its downside and a small upside as do most things. To isolate focus on negativity, "anger points" (see Karl Rove 2004) and "the other side" (see concept of Othering) keeps us divided so the rich can maintain their power. Public relations campaigns are exactly propaganda but this word has taken a negative connotation and is not used. This is destroying America from within. Keeping the middle class and working class divided against itself on wedge issues that don't mean a whole lot to economy or the average citizen trying to make a living.

Goethe said, "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."

Indeed, the American public is intentionally divided against itself by billions of dollars spent to misinform the voters and cause them to make irrational decisions (e.g. go into unpayable debt) which is the opposite of a truly free market. In a free market people make decisions rationally. The depth of consumerism based on whims and irrational behaviors is enormous. Until we correctly prioritize our platforms, we will never overcome the master/slave dialectic that's been in place for quite some time. If you don't think it's a master/slave then how do you explain 85 individuals owning as much as 3.5 billion people globally? That is unthinkable and yet concrete.
 
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Saying Obamacare is the main problem distracts from the fact the top 1% is siphoning off most of the profits generated by capitalism. It's a way to instill division when the real issues are happening behind closed doors and right under our noses. The media has successfully hijacked our understanding of what's high priority and what isn't.

I can agree Obamacare is not the best piece of legislation but having become a beneficiary and can finally get my rotting teeth checked, Naturally Obamacare has its downside and a small upside as do most things. To isolate focus on negativity, "anger points" (see Karl Rove 2004) and "the other side" (see concept of Othering) keeps us divided so the rich can maintain their power. Public relations campaigns are exactly propaganda but this word has taken a negative connotation and is not used. This is destroying America from within. Keeping the middle class and working class divided against itself on wedge issues that don't mean a whole lot to economy or the average citizen trying to make a living.

Goethe said, "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."

Indeed, the American public is intentionally divided against itself by billions of dollars spent to misinform the voters and cause them to make irrational decisions (e.g. go into unpayable debt) which is the opposite of a truly free market. In a free market people make decisions rationally. The depth of consumerism based on whims and irrational behaviors is enormous. Until we correctly prioritize our platforms, we will never overcome the master/slave dialectic that's been in place for quite some time. If you don't think it's a master/slave then how do you explain 85 individuals owning as much as 3.5 billion people globally? That is unthinkable and yet concrete.

If you don't think it's a master/slave then how do you explain 85 individuals owning as much as 3.5 billion people globally?

It's called productivity and freedom.
 
WAP20140129503_md.jpg


Inequality Myopia

There's more to it than Democrats care to know.

By Ron Ross – 2.6.14
SmallerLarger

...

At least in their rhetoric, Democrats have made equality their number one priority. It has become more an obsession than a policy objective. Mother Jones contributor Kevin Drum writes, “The heart and soul of liberalism is economic egalitarianism.” According to Jon N. Hall, “For progressives, equality is an end in itself, and a higher value than freedom, happiness, or prosperity.”

Furthermore, liberals have a one-dimensional vision of equality. Virtually the only kind of inequality they ever address is income inequality. The human experience, however, is multi-faceted.

If it were possible to create conditions that would result in equal incomes for all Americans, there would still be wide differences in intelligence, athletic ability, health, ambition, and beauty, just to name a few. If we all had equal incomes, we would not all magically feel equal. Equality of incomes does not equal equality, and equality does not equal fairness.

For liberals it is an article of faith that income inequality is increasing in America. They cite statistics indicating as much. Nevertheless, those statistics are themselves over-simplifications. Such statistics usually hide at least as much as they reveal. Economist Walter Williams observes that “Most of what’s said about income inequality is stupid or, at best, ill-informed.”

...

Exaggerating and over-emphasizing negative news while ignoring positive news is not a harmless endeavor. The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation just released “The 2014 Gates Annual Letter.” They title it “3 Myths That Block Progress for the Poor.” Here is how they summarize their letter:

By almost any measure, the world is better than it has ever been. People are living longer, healthier lives. Many nations that were aid recipients are now self-sufficient. You might think that such striking progress would be widely celebrated, but in fact, Melinda and are I are struck by how many people think the world is getting worse. The belief that the world can’t solve extreme poverty and disease isn’t just mistaken. It is harmful. That’s why in this year’s letter we take apart some of the myths that slow down the work. The next time you hear these myths, we hope you will do the same.

That’s excellent advice. I wonder, however, if the Gates have asked themselves why there are so many people who think the world is getting worse? It’s in large part because creating the myth serves the purposes of liberal politicians.

...

In a number of speeches President Obama has referred to “millionaires and billionaires,” with contempt and resentment practically dripping from those words. The resentment toward “the one percent” is driven primarily by envy rather than actually wanting to do something for the poor. Envy is not a sound foundation for public policy. The left apparently is bothered more by the existence of rich people than by the existence of poor people. They subscribe to the absurd belief that wealth causes poverty.

...

When it comes to addressing the issue, Democrat policies increase the amount of inequality rather than reduce it. Inequality is a problem liberals would rather hype than solve.

Inequality Myopia | The American Spectator

Technological progress doesn't mean income inequality doesn't matter. There was massive increases in technological progress leading up to the early 1900's but the depressed working classes in Italy, Germany, and Russia were still used to help set up dictators and push nations towards war in large part because of income inequality.

These days nations protect themselves from such eventualities and some people in the US consider it to be socialism when in reality it is a desperate attempt to prevent real socialism from taking over.

The end goal is not equality but market economies that don't concentrate the income gains into just one class of people.

Income inequality isn't just a problem that exists in a bubble. It is something that is caused by other problems. Namely a weak labor market that doesn't just lead to income inequality but unemployment and inefficiency and slower growth in demand. This growth in demand becomes very important as we look at our current economic problems because it is rather clear at this point that US consumption has helped support global economic production increases for decades but it has been artificially propped up by debt and trade imbalances. Eventually this tactic would stop working and the entire world is starting to face the consequences. Demand has to grow with Production increases. This is a very hard fact that supply-siders don't seem to get.
 
It is like you want me to think you are a clown.

I have explained what I thought about the price increases in 1997 like 3 times now and you don't know if I know the prices increased in 1997.

:cuckoo:

I owe an apology. I thought you had repeated the idea that it didn't start in 1997. My mistake. I jumped too quick in my reply.

Now I can move on from that point.

Saying that a price spike is not unusual, doesn't mean anything. Nor does it change anything that I have said.

The price spikes in the 1970s were the result of high inflation, which drove up prices. Drastic devaluing of the currency through high inflation, typically results in people investing in property. That increase in people investing in property as a hedge against inflation, naturally results in a price increase. If you look, the housing price bubble started in 1976, right after inflation peaked in 1975 at 12%.

In the 1980s, the cause was a sudden lowering of interest rates, and a high GDP growth rate. The boom started right at 1984, when the growth rate hit nearly 10%, and the interest rates were cut in half from their 1970s high.

Both of these have clear policy causes.

If you look at the broad spectrum of the graph, house prices have been relatively stable from the late 1940s, until 1997, with only those two exceptions of the 1970s inflation, and the 1980s interest rate cut and high GDP.

What happened in 1997? None of these. There was no huge inflation. There was no spike in interest rates, or sudden drop in interest rates. There was no boom in the economy, which was fairly steady at 4% to 5%.

There is no explanation, and yet the housing market made a drastic increase in prices.

You have not given any satisfactory explanation to why that happened. I suggest I did. Freddie Mac, validating Sub-prime Mortgage Backed Securities, with a AAA rating, in 1997, would explain why there was suddenly a drastic increase in sub-prime loans, and that would explain why prices dramatically increased, because lowering the lending standards, by securitizing sub-prime loans, increased the number of people who qualified to get a mortgage. Increased Demand, static supply... price goes up.

Again, unlike the prior two booms, you can't blame it on interest rates going up or down, because they didn't in the late 1990s. You can't blame it on inflation driving investment, because there was little inflation. You can't blame it on a booming economy, because there was no booming economy.

There is no logical, identifiable reason for this price bubble, other than what I have outlined.

So again, here is your opportunity to give your own reason. What do you think caused the price bubble in 1997?

Interesting side note, the Home Mortgage Disclosure Act, was pushed by liberals as a solution to so-called mortgage discrimination, and passed in 1975. Odd that directly after the very first attempt at mortgage affirmative action, that there was a bubble. However, I can find no evidence linking the bubble to this act. It was more likely the high inflation rate. It is an interesting coincidence.

Like I said before there are many reasons why the prices would have started to increase in 1997. If I was only given two choices, lower standards on loans or the rise of MBS that hid those sub-prime loans I would go with the MBS. That said there were other nations seeing a rise in home prices and it is very hard to know exactly why there was a boom in 1997.

There is no doubt that MBS played a massive part in the boom and bust as I have already talked about. No one is denying this as far as I am aware and the single biggest problem with the MBS is the hidden risk. A risk that increases drastically in a bubble and hides poor behavior by those creating the mortgages in the first place.

A lot of people at these financial institutions and ratings agencies get paid a lot of money to know the risk on an investment. Decision makers are paid a lot of money to know and make the right decision for their companies. The idea that a government agency is at fault for hiding risk from them is absolutely ridiculous. I don't care if F&F rated them AAA(which they have no authority to do), there is no way a private company would outsource the health of their own company to a government agency's analysis. The system doesn't work that way and you keep suggesting that it does which is absurd.

While I am uncertain about 1997 I am certain that the drop in interest rates played a big part in the crisis as did the proliferation of sub-prime loans that were not mandated by the government.

You can blame the government for failing to regulate and failing to enforce regulations. You can blame F&F for not understanding the risk of the MBS. You can blame government for repealing Glass-Steagall. You can blame the The Commodities Futures Modernization Act. You can blame interest rates. You can blame anyone who ever thought markets could regulate themselves. Blame is everywhere but very little of it actually rests at the feet of some poor people getting a sub-prime loan. That is what this issue is ultimately about, not blaming government generally or capitalism or whatever. There is enough blame for everyone except the people who actually need these laws. The economy doesn't come crashing down because some poor people got a mortgage.

But see, we know the "many reasons" for the 1970s and 1980s bubbles.

The 'many reasons' that happened in those bubbles, didn't exist in the 1997 bubble.

You mention lowering mortgage standards, and Mortgage Backed Securities.

Here's the key to both of those. They were both results of the government. Who created Mortgage Backed Securities?

Government created MBS.

Ginnie Mae guaranteed the first mortgage pass-through security of an approved lender in 1968. In 1971, Freddie Mac issued its first mortgage pass-through, called a participation certificate, composed primarily of private mortgages. In 1981, Fannie Mae issued its first mortgage pass-through, called a mortgage-backed security. In 1983, Freddie Mac issued the first collateralized mortgage obligation.

The first mortgage security, the first MBS, the first collateralized debt (mortgage) obligation (CDOs). All of them were created by the government.

Further, if it was merely MBSs that caused the problem, then why didn't it start in 1968? Or 71? Or 81? Or 83? Mortgage securities have existed for nearly 30 years, before it caused a price bubble of 1997.

Can you explain why after so many years, suddenly MBSs ruined the entire market?

I can... Before 1997, you couldn't make, or securitize an MBS with sub-prime loans. Freddie Mac changed that by inking a deal in 1997, to bundle sub-prime loans into MBSs, and that drastically altered the entire fundamentals of the market, and led to all the other problems.

In other words, the lowered mortgage standards is what caused the problem. Not MBSs, or the problem would have happened for 30 years prior, or even today. MBSs are still the primary mode of mortgages today. Nothing has changed in that regard, so we should expect the same problems all over again.

A lot of people at these financial institutions and ratings agencies get paid a lot of money to know the risk on an investment.

Yes, but the government was suing them. Listen, if *I* myself, am working at a bank, and they are paying me to minimize risk, and the government comes and says "You either make these bad loans, or we're suing you, and you'll lose your $200K job, and you'll get creamed in the press for 'mortgage decrimination' and your reputation will be ruined for life", chances are I'm going to rate them how the government says to.

Here's the kicker.... YOU WOULD TOO. If you have a job making $200K, and the government says make bad loans or lose your $200K job... you'll make the bad loans. Most people would. Why should you lose your life, for the sake of a government edict?

I don't care if F&F rated them AAA(which they have no authority to do), there is no way a private company would outsource the health of their own company to a government agency's analysis.

They don't have the authority? F&F is backed by the Federal Government. There is no higher authority in this country. Have you not read the history of Freddie and Fannie? The whole point of these institutions is to directly influence the mortgage market on behalf of the government, and you think private companies are not influenced by them, when that is their whole entire purpose for existing??

Of course they are influenced by F&F. They all are. Now you can say they shouldn't.... yeah I agree. But they are... cause F&F are the biggest players in the entire economy, and they are backed by the highest authority in the entire country.

Sorry, but that is a weak, very weak argument.

While I am uncertain about 1997 I am certain that the drop in interest rates played a big part in the crisis as did the proliferation of sub-prime loans that were not mandated by the government.

Right, but again, just like your previous statement.... the mortgage market is influenced by the biggest players, which are F&F, who have the backing of the Federal Government.

If I can find the congressional testimony, I'll post it where a CEO of a bank, openly said the whole reason they started bundling sub-prime loans in their MBSs, was because Freddie Mac started doing it.

If Freddie Mac, or Fannie Mae, or both, are doing X, and they are backed by the Federal Government, then obviously X is safe.

Now you can claim that private banks should not have assumed X was safe, just because the government did it, but the fact is, that is what people assumed. You can't say 'sub-prime loan from Bear Stearns is safe' and 'sub-prime loan from Bank X is not safe'..... why would you assume that?

Again, once Freddie Mac gave their seal of approval on Sub-prime loans, the rest of the market followed. You can say they should not have, but that is denying the entire purpose of Freddie and Fannie, which is to influence the market, with the authority of the Federal Government. That's the whole reason they exist.

You can blame the government for failing to regulate and failing to enforce regulations. You can blame F&F for not understanding the risk of the MBS. You can blame government for repealing Glass-Steagall. You can blame the The Commodities Futures Modernization Act. You can blame interest rates. You can blame anyone who ever thought markets could regulate themselves. Blame is everywhere but very little of it actually rests at the feet of some poor people getting a sub-prime loan.

I don't think they 'failed to regulate'. It was actually those regulations that pushed bad loans, that the banks were following. When the government is suing banks to make bad loans, all claims that "they failed to regulate" are mute. Did you really expect the regulators to come and fine banks for making bad loans that the Clinton Administration just sued them to make? Think about that.... the regulators go and levy fines on banks for making loans the Clinton administration, just sued them to make.... is that going to happen? No. They were supporting the regulations of the administration, to push sub-prime loans.

Further, Glass Steagall had NOTHING to do with the crash. NOTHING, as in NOT ONE THING to do with it. First, the supposed repeal happened in 99, and clearly the bubble and sub-prime boom, started in 1997.

Second, most of the banks that failed, would have not been affected either way by Glass Steagall.

Third, most of the rest of the world, has never had Glass Steagall regulations, and the problem didn't originate in Europe, nor did it happen in the last 50 years they didn't have GSA regulations.

There is zero evidence that Glass Steagall, had any effect either way, on the sub-prime melt down.

True or False... IF no unworthy borrowers has borrowed any sub-prime loans, there would not have been a crash.

If True, explain how they can't possibly be partly to blame?
 
Laws are not the only means of getting people to obey. Having never grown up in poverty one will not know that the opportunity to choose to leave the neighborhood or stay is not there.

Peer pressure, social pressure, going where the money is (crime) can constrict one's innate ability to choose liberty. Indeed, they can leads to bad decisions and it's often because people are ill informed. Our education system panders to wealth just like opportunities to work do. Though more service jobs exist than ever, they are often shameful and are dead end.

There is so much that can be said here but if you are unwilling to recognize the disparity in this country is not just income, it runs all the way down into the psyche. I know because I grew up in it and have been homeless. If you haven't lived that way you simply have no genuine idea what really means and what the causes are. You hear others who've never been homeless talk about it but that's as good as the info gets. It's an entirely different world to be in poverty, it's plain and simple and no one is willing to try that because poverty is not inviting.

59% of Americans will experience poverty for a year or more. If you haven't then you aren't part of the majority of people. You may want to recalibrate your understanding to account for the breadth of this problem. It's a human problem stemming from bad policy and greed. There is a war going on against the poor and working class. The 2 minute video explains this with rigor.
War on the Poor
Their War on the Poor

"Most Americans are on a downward escalator. Median household pay is dropping, adjusted for inflation. A smaller share of working-age Americans are in jobs than at any time in the last three decades.

Only 113,000 jobs were added to the U.S. economy in January, on top of a paltry 75,000 in December.

"We need a new WPA to rebuild the nation's crumbling infrastructure, a higher minimum wage, strong unions, investments in education, and extended unemployment benefits for those who still can't find a job.

"When 95% of the economic gains go to the top 1%, the middle class and poor don't have the purchasing power to keep it going."

"Most Americans are on a downward escalator. Median household pay is dropping, adjusted for inflation. A smaller share of working-age Americans are in jobs than at any time in the last three decades.

Obama and Obamacare, killing jobs, shrinking incomes, all across America.
Obama is no different from the rich bitches that have come before him:

"In 2007, $407,056 was the average income of households at the lower boundary of America’s
top one percent; and the average income at the divide between the 99.9 percent and the top
one-tenth of one percent was $2,065,541.

 "In 2007, all 'very rich' households in the top one-tenth of one percent earned nearly $4.5
million on average; and the 'rich' households in the rest of the top one percent averaged just
over one million dollars. By 2010, the very rich households averaged $4.9 million in income,
and the rich households were still earning just over one million per year (a tad more than in
2007).
 "To offer some perspective on these income levels: over the 2007-10 period, the least affluent
90% of U.S. households made $30,000 a year on average; those between the 90th and 95th
percentiles averaged $130,000 a year; and households between from the 95th through the 98th
percentiles took in an average of $210,000 a year."

http://www.scholarsstrategynetwork.org/sites/default/files/ssn_basic_facts_hicks_on_the_very_rich.pdf
 
Their War on the Poor

"Most Americans are on a downward escalator. Median household pay is dropping, adjusted for inflation. A smaller share of working-age Americans are in jobs than at any time in the last three decades.

Only 113,000 jobs were added to the U.S. economy in January, on top of a paltry 75,000 in December.

"We need a new WPA to rebuild the nation's crumbling infrastructure, a higher minimum wage, strong unions, investments in education, and extended unemployment benefits for those who still can't find a job.

"When 95% of the economic gains go to the top 1%, the middle class and poor don't have the purchasing power to keep it going."

"Most Americans are on a downward escalator. Median household pay is dropping, adjusted for inflation. A smaller share of working-age Americans are in jobs than at any time in the last three decades.

Obama and Obamacare, killing jobs, shrinking incomes, all across America.
Obama is no different from the rich bitches that have come before him:

"In 2007, $407,056 was the average income of households at the lower boundary of America’s
top one percent; and the average income at the divide between the 99.9 percent and the top
one-tenth of one percent was $2,065,541.

 "In 2007, all 'very rich' households in the top one-tenth of one percent earned nearly $4.5
million on average; and the 'rich' households in the rest of the top one percent averaged just
over one million dollars. By 2010, the very rich households averaged $4.9 million in income,
and the rich households were still earning just over one million per year (a tad more than in
2007).
 "To offer some perspective on these income levels: over the 2007-10 period, the least affluent
90% of U.S. households made $30,000 a year on average; those between the 90th and 95th
percentiles averaged $130,000 a year; and households between from the 95th through the 98th
percentiles took in an average of $210,000 a year."

http://www.scholarsstrategynetwork.org/sites/default/files/ssn_basic_facts_hicks_on_the_very_rich.pdf

Obama is no different from the rich bitches that have come before him:

He is a lot less qualified than the previous rich bitches.

Hell, he makes Bush look good by comparison.
 
There were housing bubbles in other nations in 97 too. There are a lot of reasons why there can be a bubble starting in 97 but a lot of things happened between 97 and the crash that caused this historic bubble besides what was going on in 97.

There is no doubt that F&F played a part in the MBS problem. The thing is the market is not set up to depend on them to make all the decisions. The market is not set up to allow a government institution to be a ratings agency or manage the risk portfolios of these financial institutions.

The risk that was taken on by these institutions was in no way limited to what the government was mandating. I have said this multiple times and it is important. The demand for sub-prime mortgages far outstripped the requirements of the government. The claim that these institutions failed because of risk that was forced upon them is simply false.

Secondly the institutions lowered their standards far below what the CRA asked for. In fact one of the major faults you can place at the feet of government is the failure to regulate the markets both in terms of loan standards and balance sheet requirements.

If you don't understand that private institutions are in charge of their own financial security then I don't know what to tell you. There were plenty of banks that met CRA guidelines and didn't crash. The ones that crashed generally tried to maximize their profits by betting on the AAA rating of MBS.

You are overstating the backing of F&F by the Federal government which was a mistake many investors made. They equated F&F to the federal government beyond what the law actually establishes. The bailout of F&F went beyond what the Federal government was legally required to do.

The whole reason F&F exists isn't to make financial decisions for the entire market. Those decisions to go above and beyond the federal requirements were their own. F&F was not regulated enough either btw.

Glass Steagall mattered because it played a major part in the amount of capital flowing into the bubble and the assets that were put at risk. Glass Steagall is important when talking about the size of the bubble and the need for a bailout.
 
There were housing bubbles in other nations in 97 too. There are a lot of reasons why there can be a bubble starting in 97 but a lot of things happened between 97 and the crash that caused this historic bubble besides what was going on in 97.

There is no doubt that F&F played a part in the MBS problem. The thing is the market is not set up to depend on them to make all the decisions. The market is not set up to allow a government institution to be a ratings agency or manage the risk portfolios of these financial institutions.

The risk that was taken on by these institutions was in no way limited to what the government was mandating. I have said this multiple times and it is important. The demand for sub-prime mortgages far outstripped the requirements of the government. The claim that these institutions failed because of risk that was forced upon them is simply false.

Secondly the institutions lowered their standards far below what the CRA asked for. In fact one of the major faults you can place at the feet of government is the failure to regulate the markets both in terms of loan standards and balance sheet requirements.

If you don't understand that private institutions are in charge of their own financial security then I don't know what to tell you. There were plenty of banks that met CRA guidelines and didn't crash. The ones that crashed generally tried to maximize their profits by betting on the AAA rating of MBS.

You are overstating the backing of F&F by the Federal government which was a mistake many investors made. They equated F&F to the federal government beyond what the law actually establishes. The bailout of F&F went beyond what the Federal government was legally required to do.

The whole reason F&F exists isn't to make financial decisions for the entire market. Those decisions to go above and beyond the federal requirements were their own. F&F was not regulated enough either btw.

Glass Steagall mattered because it played a major part in the amount of capital flowing into the bubble and the assets that were put at risk. Glass Steagall is important when talking about the size of the bubble and the need for a bailout.

The CRA did force them to lower the standards, it appears you admit that. Then, however, you appear to believe that they provided more sub-prime loans than the government mandated, thus going beyond what the law established.

Ok, please tell the class what criteria they should have used to deny people sub-prime loans that the government was mandating they provide. Color of skin maybe? Was this CRA thing just supposed to reparations for blacks? What am I missing?
 
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