Cold Fusion38
SUPER GENIUS
Hey Navy I am new here can you explain what the power ranking and icons on the top left of your post is all about?
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This program is the SAME THING THEY DID TO THE MORTGAGE INDUSTRY... they subsidized mortgages, making them cheaper and easier to get...
What did that do? it shoved up the price of the underlying product; REAL ESTATE.
This will do one thing... drive up the price of USED CARS... as it reduces the number of available used cars.
Now who buys used cars?
That's right... this program is going to make it harder for that single Mom with bad credit to run out and grab herself a reliable used car, which is priced within her means...
And who do ya suppose we're going to need to FIX THAT PROBLEM? Why, just like always, we'll need those WHO CAUSED THE PROBLEM TO FIX IT.
ROFL...
Leftists...
If not for that last part, that's a good angle. But it's not "leftists" and by using that term you show that you are being partisan still. The rest though, is one side effect those supporting this stupidity have not considered.
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- General Motors and Chrysler LLC asked the government Tuesday for $21.6 billion in additional loans, but the final cost of a bailout of the auto industry could be significantly higher.
The two struggling auto giants have already received a total of $17.4 billion in loans. If they get the new loans they want, the price tag of the bailout would climb to $39 billion.
What's more, $7.5 billion in loans have already been approved for the financing arms of GM and Chrysler. Congress also approved funding last year for $25 billion in loans to help automakers convert their plants to produce more fuel efficient cars.
But dealers and suppliers are also asking for federal aid. And consumers may eventually get further incentives from the government to buy new cars.
All told, it could take up to $130 billion to save Detroit. Here's a breakdown of the rest of the money that might be needed.
Loan guarantees requested by auto parts suppliers: $18.5 billion. The trade groups for parts suppliers are asking loan guarantees for the amount they're owed by domestic automakers. They are also seeking guarantees on other types of commercial loans and help so General Motors (GM, Fortune 500) and Chrysler pay their suppliers more quickly.
Loan guarantees being requested by auto dealers: $5 billion to $20 billion. This is still in the works. But the National Automobile Dealers Association is working on a request for federal loan guarantees to make sure they can get the cash they need to finance their inventories. NADA vice president and general counsel Andrew Koblenz said the range is likely to be in the $5 billion to $20 billion range.
Line of credit being requested by Ford: $9 billion. Ford Motor (F, Fortune 500) continues to insist that it shouldn't need federal help, primarily because it locked up financing years before the credit markets dried up.
Auto bailout tab could top $130 billion - Feb. 18, 2009
I'm sorry Care with all the money given to these companies already, programs like this for addtional billion and now they want 2 billion more don't convince me. Especially since you take into consideration the bank bail-out along with the auto bail-out and all the other problems associated with this. What this program is doing is giving more help to an industry that has already received a LOT of help at the expense of many many others. Here is something to consider, rather than actually destroying these cars because someone worships at the alter of global warming in the Administration, perhaps the Govt. could have taken them and auctioned them off and taken that money and paid down the debt? I'm sorry this type of thing IMO just gives me further proof that all this is nothing but giving a little payback to large groups that support their campaigns.
I'm sorry Navy, you are simply wrong on this....this money was WELL SPENT and there is NOTHING to complain about....it HELPED the auto industry, and since we own 70% of it, it helped us....that's the bottom line.
It also helped the credit industry, with all the new car loans, so this too helped us, since we bailed them out for preferred stock...
trying to make this successful promotion out to be a bomb when it clearly WAS NOT, is nothing but needless partisan hackery imo.
I suppose either way, it being successful or it being a bomb, you would have been there saying it was a bomb and a mistake, am I right? If it hadn't of worked this successfully, you still would be on here bitching about it, right?
Not trying to be hard on ya, but i don't think you have the understanding on what a good stimulus promotion is because you can not recognize one when you see one...there is such a thing ya know.... a successful reaction to a stimulus promotion or an ineffective reaction...
Care
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- General Motors and Chrysler LLC asked the government Tuesday for $21.6 billion in additional loans, but the final cost of a bailout of the auto industry could be significantly higher.
The two struggling auto giants have already received a total of $17.4 billion in loans. If they get the new loans they want, the price tag of the bailout would climb to $39 billion.
What's more, $7.5 billion in loans have already been approved for the financing arms of GM and Chrysler. Congress also approved funding last year for $25 billion in loans to help automakers convert their plants to produce more fuel efficient cars.
But dealers and suppliers are also asking for federal aid. And consumers may eventually get further incentives from the government to buy new cars.
All told, it could take up to $130 billion to save Detroit. Here's a breakdown of the rest of the money that might be needed.
Loan guarantees requested by auto parts suppliers: $18.5 billion. The trade groups for parts suppliers are asking loan guarantees for the amount they're owed by domestic automakers. They are also seeking guarantees on other types of commercial loans and help so General Motors (GM, Fortune 500) and Chrysler pay their suppliers more quickly.
Loan guarantees being requested by auto dealers: $5 billion to $20 billion. This is still in the works. But the National Automobile Dealers Association is working on a request for federal loan guarantees to make sure they can get the cash they need to finance their inventories. NADA vice president and general counsel Andrew Koblenz said the range is likely to be in the $5 billion to $20 billion range.
Line of credit being requested by Ford: $9 billion. Ford Motor (F, Fortune 500) continues to insist that it shouldn't need federal help, primarily because it locked up financing years before the credit markets dried up.
Auto bailout tab could top $130 billion - Feb. 18, 2009
I'm sorry Care with all the money given to these companies already, programs like this for addtional billion and now they want 2 billion more don't convince me. Especially since you take into consideration the bank bail-out along with the auto bail-out and all the other problems associated with this. What this program is doing is giving more help to an industry that has already received a LOT of help at the expense of many many others. Here is something to consider, rather than actually destroying these cars because someone worships at the alter of global warming in the Administration, perhaps the Govt. could have taken them and auctioned them off and taken that money and paid down the debt? I'm sorry this type of thing IMO just gives me further proof that all this is nothing but giving a little payback to large groups that support their campaigns.
I'm sorry Navy, you are simply wrong on this....this money was WELL SPENT and there is NOTHING to complain about....it HELPED the auto industry, and since we own 70% of it, it helped us....that's the bottom line.
It also helped the credit industry, with all the new car loans, so this too helped us, since we bailed them out for preferred stock...
trying to make this successful promotion out to be a bomb when it clearly WAS NOT, is nothing but needless partisan hackery imo.
I suppose either way, it being successful or it being a bomb, you would have been there saying it was a bomb and a mistake, am I right? If it hadn't of worked this successfully, you still would be on here bitching about it, right?
Not trying to be hard on ya, but i don't think you have the understanding on what a good stimulus promotion is because you can not recognize one when you see one...there is such a thing ya know.... a successful reaction to a stimulus promotion or an ineffective reaction...
Care
Hmm... WOW! So we own a siginificant percentage of Toyote, Nissan and Hyundai? That's news... when did THAT happen?
But setting that aside, lets just assume for the sake of argument that 'we own 70% of the auto industry'...
Now, we loan ourselves money to go buy the products, that we loaned ourselves, to buy the companies which we loaned money to, so they could produce those products... how's that helping us, exactly?
Now Care will be unable to explain how our subsidizing the purchasing of new cars, which must drive up the the cost of used cars; which we did buy taking out loans to buy the products, which we took out loans to but the companies that produced them, helps us...
All she knows is that 'it sounds good, so it must BE GOOD...'
After watching the destruction of what looks to be a fairly new Volvo alongside some rather late model SUV's and some other vids. I have seen lately of the cars that are being destroyed this just add's more evidence to the sheer nonsense of this program. Destroying these cars does NOTHING and I mean NOTHING at ALL other than smooth over some environmentalist ego or perhaps some new car companies Union.
Hey Navy I am new here can you explain what the power ranking and icons on the top left of your post is all about?
After watching the destruction of what looks to be a fairly new Volvo alongside some rather late model SUV's and some other vids. I have seen lately of the cars that are being destroyed this just add's more evidence to the sheer nonsense of this program. Destroying these cars does NOTHING and I mean NOTHING at ALL other than smooth over some environmentalist ego or perhaps some new car companies Union.
I have got to respectfully disagree with ya on this little point N1960...
When one removes a product which is being sought by consumers; one reduces supply of that product, thus where demand remains steady, the value of that product increases...
So, what destroying those cars does, is to increase the value of the remaining cars...
However, with that said, lets consider the weak economy, thus the natural increase in demand for used cars, during such periods; add that to the equation and IF these boneheads crush enough cars, we could be looking at quite a sellers market for the used car owners...
Now the cool part here is how this 'unintended consequence' as they so often DO... will actually end up INCREASING the number of used cars that remain on the road... and thus work AGAINST the eco-cranks and their goal to reduce auto-carbon emissions...
ROFL... They truly are the Ideological equivilent of The Keystone Cops.
sorry....i called it as it is caela! google is a friend!
here's just one quip on it!
GM-Union Deal Raises U.S. Stake - WSJ.com
By JOHN D. STOLL, JEFF MCCRACKEN and NEIL KING JR.
General Motors Corp. and the United Auto Workers have agreed to a new restructuring plan that would give the union a significantly smaller stake in the company than previously envisioned, and leave the U.S. government owning as much as 70% of the car maker.
The government's plan also calls for paying off in full GM's secured lenders, banks including Citigroup Inc. and J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. that are owed about $6 billion. That would remove one potential obstacle to a speedy bankruptcy reorganization.
well, what would you call it?
care
After watching the destruction of what looks to be a fairly new Volvo alongside some rather late model SUV's and some other vids. I have seen lately of the cars that are being destroyed this just add's more evidence to the sheer nonsense of this program. Destroying these cars does NOTHING and I mean NOTHING at ALL other than smooth over some environmentalist ego or perhaps some new car companies Union.
I have got to respectfully disagree with ya on this little point N1960...
When one removes a product which is being sought by consumers; one reduces supply of that product, thus where demand remains steady, the value of that product increases...
So, what destroying those cars does, is to increase the value of the remaining cars...
However, with that said, lets consider the weak economy, thus the natural increase in demand for used cars, during such periods; add that to the equation and IF these boneheads crush enough cars, we could be looking at quite a sellers market for the used car owners...
Now the cool part here is how this 'unintended consequence' as they so often DO... will actually end up INCREASING the number of used cars that remain on the road... and thus work AGAINST the eco-cranks and their goal to reduce auto-carbon emissions...
ROFL... They truly are the Ideological equivilent of The Keystone Cops.
Well there is that PI, and I stand corrected in that respect. I was trying to point out that each time it's pointed out that this program has some sort of enviromental impact makes me laugh when just about every environmental group has said that it has the equivilant of about an hours with of emissions. The idea of crushing these car's in the name of environmental protection has to be the dumbest idea since FDR wanted to add 6 more supremes to the court. I find it totally stupid to destroy an asset that the Govt. has purchased with taxpayer money especially when you consider the fact the Federal Govt. is not exactly in the black at the moment. This sort of reminds me of the same Govt. that sends Spruance class destroyers to the bottom as targets when other nations wanted to purchase them. Here's an idea, how about taking the cars and sending them to an auto auction and then taking that money and paying back all that money the Govt. has been borrowing from China for all this social engineering?
sorry....i called it as it is caela! google is a friend!
here's just one quip on it!
GM-Union Deal Raises U.S. Stake - WSJ.com
By JOHN D. STOLL, JEFF MCCRACKEN and NEIL KING JR.
General Motors Corp. and the United Auto Workers have agreed to a new restructuring plan that would give the union a significantly smaller stake in the company than previously envisioned, and leave the U.S. government owning as much as 70% of the car maker.
The government's plan also calls for paying off in full GM's secured lenders, banks including Citigroup Inc. and J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. that are owed about $6 billion. That would remove one potential obstacle to a speedy bankruptcy reorganization.
well, what would you call it?
care
I call it the fat cats in Washington finding yet another way to line their pockets at taxpayers expense and managing to convince some people to thank them for it! Just because the government and GM agree that DC own's 70% of GM doesn't mean that WE own shit. With the way things stand now all the "ownership" really means is that the taxpayers have now been put on the hook to continue to help pay for a company that should have been allowed to die.
That may sound harsh but I am not a believer in the credo "It was to big to let it fail", that DC seems to like to spout these days. A number of people would have lost their jobs but (and this is my personal belief only) I don't think it would be nearly so many as the politicians would like to scare us into believing. I personally think a number of other companies would, likely, have taken advantage of picking up some cheap factories and equipment and that many of GM's workers, if they wanted to continue in the auto industry, would simply have ended up working for a different company.
But back to the original point I was making in my initial post... If you don't have a stock certificate YOU don't own ANY part of a company.
The U.S. Treasury is prepared to provide approximately $30.1 billion of financing to support GM through an expedited chapter 11 proceeding and transition the new GM through its restructuring plan. The U.S. Treasury does not anticipate providing any additional assistance to GM beyond this commitment. In exchange for funds already committed by the U.S. Treasury and the new injection of $30.1 billion, the U.S. government will receive approximately $8.8 billion in debt and preferred stock in the new GM and approximately 60% of the equity of the new GM. The U.S. Treasury will also have the right to appoint the initial directors other than those that will be selected by the VEBA and the Canadian government.
The Governments of Canada and Ontario will participate alongside the U.S. Treasury by lending $9.5 billion to GM and New GM. The Canadian and Ontario governments will receive approximately $1.7 billion in debt and preferred stock, and approximately 12% of the equity of the new GM. Based on its substantial financial contribution, the Canadian government will also have the right to select one initial director.
Based on these steps, the new GM will have far less debt and a world class balance sheet. This will allow the company the financial stability to weather future market downturns and generate significant excess free cash flow to invest in the business.
The new GM will also pursue a commitment to build a new small car in an idled UAW factory, which when in place will increase the share of U.S. production for U.S. sale from its current level of about 66% to over 70%.
The White House - Press Office - Fact Sheet on Obama Administration Auto Restructuring Initiative for General Motors
we have a STAKE in the industry doing well, at this point...we need them to do well!
we have a STAKE in the industry doing well, at this point...we need them to do well!
What --a liberal becoming enlightened ??? You know who OWNS industries ???
(rich people)![]()
we have a STAKE in the industry doing well, at this point...we need them to do well!
What --a liberal becoming enlightened ??? You know who OWNS industries ???
(rich people)![]()
that might be the case under most circumstances, but in this case us measly tax payers own 70% of gm, not the rich.....at least not the rich right at the moment, until they pay us back.
What --a liberal becoming enlightened ??? You know who OWNS industries ???
(rich people)![]()
that might be the case under most circumstances, but in this case us measly tax payers own 70% of gm, not the rich.....at least not the rich right at the moment, until they pay us back.
dreamer![]()
Duane Paddock, who owns a Chevrolet dealership near Buffalo, N.Y., said dealers may stop selling clunkers under the program because of the funding lags.
"I've got dealers who are reporting to me that they've got over $3 million that they've fronted and they haven't been paid anything. It's just killing dealer cash flow right now," said Paddock, who serves as co-chair of GM's northeast region dealer council.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, the federal agency overseeing the program also known as NHTSA, said Friday that dealers have submitted requests for rebates that total $1.5 billion half of the money allocated to the program through the online system set up to process and pay the claims. But NHTSA did not provide a dollar figure for the total amount that has actually been paid since the program began July 27.
There are indications that not much of that money has actually flowed to dealers. A survey of about one-fifth of Virginia's 519 dealerships done this week by the Virginia Automobile Dealers Association found that only 2.8 percent of the roughly 4,000 Cash for Clunkers deals submitted to the government have been paid.