Charles Krauthammer Explains Problem With Ground Zero Mosque Perfectly

[cad]

I agree, that's why I also agree with those who talk of buying property right next door and putting up whatever they want, even if it is in the face of their Muslim neighbors.

It's about property rights.

it's not about rights, it's about what's right.

take the example of the noisy neighbor.

say you have a neighbor whom you get a long with. on certain fridays he has his band over and they practice in his garage. your neighbor's house is one of 3 places they go to practice. local noise ordinances allow him to play his music until 10, an ordinance they always abide by. you find the music a tad bit annoying, but have gotten used to it, and after all, he's a good guy.
this friday is his scheduled band night. this concerns you because your two children have come down with the flu, and you are supposed to be catching a flight early in the morning. on top of that, your wife is taking the bar exam at 8am, and needless to say, would like to get a good nights sleep.
you go over to your neighbors house and ask him if there's any way the band could practice at one of their locations friday night. he looks you in the eye and says "no, the law says i can play until ten, i'm gonna play until ten."

does he have the legal right to say that. absolutely.
if he wants to get invited to your super bowl party, is that the best stance for him to take?

I see what you're saying up to the last line. Were you planning on inviting Muslims to your Superbowl party up to the point where they insisted on building their community center on THEIR property?

it goes to the idea that the purpose of the mosque is to build bridges, bring people of different faiths together. (the super bowl party represents people of different rooting interests getting together to celebrate a common event)

 

[bodecea]

it's not about rights, it's about what's right.

take the example of the noisy neighbor.

say you have a neighbor whom you get a long with. on certain fridays he has his band over and they practice in his garage. your neighbor's house is one of 3 places they go to practice. local noise ordinances allow him to play his music until 10, an ordinance they always abide by. you find the music a tad bit annoying, but have gotten used to it, and after all, he's a good guy.
this friday is his scheduled band night. this concerns you because your two children have come down with the flu, and you are supposed to be catching a flight early in the morning. on top of that, your wife is taking the bar exam at 8am, and needless to say, would like to get a good nights sleep.
you go over to your neighbors house and ask him if there's any way the band could practice at one of their locations friday night. he looks you in the eye and says "no, the law says i can play until ten, i'm gonna play until ten."

does he have the legal right to say that. absolutely.
if he wants to get invited to your super bowl party, is that the best stance for him to take?

I see what you're saying up to the last line. Were you planning on inviting Muslims to your Superbowl party up to the point where they insisted on building their community center on THEIR property?

it goes to the idea that the purpose of the mosque is to build bridges, bring people of different faiths together. (the super bowl party represents people of different rooting interests getting together to celebrate a common event)

Will you agree with me that there are MANY, MANY people to whom it does not matter WHERE they build this community center? It's the FACT that Muslims are doing it that is sticking in their craw? How do you build bridges with people like that who are just looking for excuses to not like you?

 

[johnrocks]

I don't think it's bigotry that is driving this issue so much as emotion, the people who oppose are good people just like the ones who support it are;for the most part; it boils down to private property rights for me, I have no emotional capital invested here.

I agree, that's why I also agree with those who talk of buying property right next door and putting up whatever they want, even if it is in the face of their Muslim neighbors.

It's about property rights.

it's not about rights, it's about what's right.

take the example of the noisy neighbor.

say you have a neighbor whom you get a long with. on certain fridays he has his band over and they practice in his garage. your neighbor's house is one of 3 places they go to practice. local noise ordinances allow him to play his music until 10, an ordinance they always abide by. you find the music a tad bit annoying, but have gotten used to it, and after all, he's a good guy.
this friday is his scheduled band night. this concerns you because your two children have come down with the flu, and you are supposed to be catching a flight early in the morning. on top of that, your wife is taking the bar exam at 8am, and needless to say, would like to get a good nights sleep.
you go over to your neighbors house and ask him if there's any way the band could practice at one of their locations friday night. he looks you in the eye and says "no, the law says i can play until ten, i'm gonna play until ten."

does he have the legal right to say that. absolutely.
if he wants to get invited to your super bowl party, is that the best stance for him to take?

Actually, I think this is the best analogy or explanation I've seen thus for but I do have a question.

Where is the reciprocating "super bowl party" at, honestly, I can't recall an "olive branch" extended toward the Muslim community as a whole since 9-1 happened, that's why I strive to keep my emotions in check on this issue and limit it to what is and isn't lawful and Constitutional.

 

[Shogun]

Nice dishonest attack CurveLight.

If you actually can put a legitimate thought together and have something you wish to say that is counter to what I have said feel free. Or you can continue to show your mendacity as you just did with the above post. I prefer the latter as it shows you are intellectually bankrupt on this topic.



@ Ravi. See the 2 pictures I showed of ground zero (overhead and ground view). You can see the top of the 3rd building back from the ground zero location. When that is converted to a cultural center and mosque of the same height you will also be able to see the top of it in the same way. Even the picture you posted shows that the first building in front of the mosque is shorter than 13 stories.

so what. get the fuck over it.

or, while it gets built, just try not to be too ironic.

They have ever right to build it and I, under the same constitutional premise, have every right to express my dislike for the location. My friend Hadir, a Muslim from Turkey, agrees with me that its a poor location and sends the wrong message...he must be an anti-Muslim bigot eh?

This lady must be a Muslim fearing hater too
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmKYd74nulk]YouTube - O'Reilly Factor: Raheel Raza Speaks Out Against 9/11 Mosque[/ame]


I love the dishonest attacks of "your a bigot" or "you don't like the constitution" You guys really don't have any solid ground to stand on here do you? If you do please articulate it, if not please continue to look foolish and intellectually bankrupt.

I can find jews who insist that jesus was the saviour.. so what. Those jews do not represent the rest of the Hebrew culture any more than your exception examples prove anything about the rule.


While you are crying bout MY lack of ground to stand on, feel free to cry yourself to sleep tonight knowing that this WILL be built BECAUSE OF exactly the Constitutional issues that you keep crying foul over.


You can tell me about who looks foolish after the ribbon cutting ceremony that opens the doors to this mosque.

 

[cad]

I agree, that's why I also agree with those who talk of buying property right next door and putting up whatever they want, even if it is in the face of their Muslim neighbors.

It's about property rights.

it's not about rights, it's about what's right.

take the example of the noisy neighbor.

say you have a neighbor whom you get a long with. on certain fridays he has his band over and they practice in his garage. your neighbor's house is one of 3 places they go to practice. local noise ordinances allow him to play his music until 10, an ordinance they always abide by. you find the music a tad bit annoying, but have gotten used to it, and after all, he's a good guy.
this friday is his scheduled band night. this concerns you because your two children have come down with the flu, and you are supposed to be catching a flight early in the morning. on top of that, your wife is taking the bar exam at 8am, and needless to say, would like to get a good nights sleep.
you go over to your neighbors house and ask him if there's any way the band could practice at one of their locations friday night. he looks you in the eye and says "no, the law says i can play until ten, i'm gonna play until ten."

does he have the legal right to say that. absolutely.
if he wants to get invited to your super bowl party, is that the best stance for him to take?

Actually, I think this is the best analogy or explanation I've seen thus for but I do have a question.

Where is the reciprocating "super bowl party" at, honestly, I can't recall an "olive branch" extended toward the Muslim community as a whole since 9-1 happened, that's why I strive to keep my emotions in check on this issue and limit it to what is and isn't lawful and Constitutional.

what kind of olive branch is needed? muslims have been welcomed in to this society just like christians, jews, hindus, buddhists, athests, wickers have been. have there been hate crimes? yes, but the last time i looked, hate crimes against jews are much more prevalent in this country.

 

[cad]

I see what you're saying up to the last line. Were you planning on inviting Muslims to your Superbowl party up to the point where they insisted on building their community center on THEIR property?

it goes to the idea that the purpose of the mosque is to build bridges, bring people of different faiths together. (the super bowl party represents people of different rooting interests getting together to celebrate a common event)

Will you agree with me that there are MANY, MANY people to whom it does not matter WHERE they build this community center? It's the FACT that Muslims are doing it that is sticking in their craw? How do you build bridges with people like that who are just looking for excuses to not like you?

of course it's the fact that muslims are doing it that's bothering them. no shit.
let me ask you this. if a group of mexican drug lords had planned 9/11, do you think anybody would have a problem with a mosque being built near ground zero?

 

[cad]

sorry, i read your post wrong.

are there people who don't want any mosques being built? yes, unfortunately there are.
are there muslims who want to blow up americans no matter what we do? yes, unfortunately there are.

i can only speak for myself. when i first heard a mosque was being built near ground zero, my first reaction was, are you fucking kidding me?

call me islamaphobic all you want. i know i'm not. i think if you want to build bridges there's better ways to go about it.

 

[Shogun]

..yes, clearly limiting Constitutional protections to good chrisitan 'mericans is the way to go.

 

[cad]

..yes, clearly limiting Constitutional protections to good chrisitan 'mericans is the way to go.

again, who is talking about limiting constitutional protections?

how many times does someone have to say "I'M NOT SAYING THEY DON'T HAVE THE LEGAL RIGHT TO BUILD THERE, I'M SAYING IT ISN'T THE RIGHT THING TO DO" before you actually start beliving them?

now argue, "who are you to say what's right and what's wrong" all you want. that's fine.

just stop telling me i dont want muslims to have the smae first ammendment rights i do.

 

[johnrocks]

it's not about rights, it's about what's right.

take the example of the noisy neighbor.

say you have a neighbor whom you get a long with. on certain fridays he has his band over and they practice in his garage. your neighbor's house is one of 3 places they go to practice. local noise ordinances allow him to play his music until 10, an ordinance they always abide by. you find the music a tad bit annoying, but have gotten used to it, and after all, he's a good guy.
this friday is his scheduled band night. this concerns you because your two children have come down with the flu, and you are supposed to be catching a flight early in the morning. on top of that, your wife is taking the bar exam at 8am, and needless to say, would like to get a good nights sleep.
you go over to your neighbors house and ask him if there's any way the band could practice at one of their locations friday night. he looks you in the eye and says "no, the law says i can play until ten, i'm gonna play until ten."

does he have the legal right to say that. absolutely.
if he wants to get invited to your super bowl party, is that the best stance for him to take?

Actually, I think this is the best analogy or explanation I've seen thus for but I do have a question.

Where is the reciprocating "super bowl party" at, honestly, I can't recall an "olive branch" extended toward the Muslim community as a whole since 9-1 happened, that's why I strive to keep my emotions in check on this issue and limit it to what is and isn't lawful and Constitutional.

what kind of olive branch is needed? muslims have been welcomed in to this society just like christians, jews, hindus, buddhists, athests, wickers have been. have there been hate crimes? yes, but the last time i looked, hate crimes against jews are much more prevalent in this country.

I oppose hate crime legislation, we're probably pretty close on most issues cad or at least a lot of them, I see your posts, you seem like someone who loves his Country, peace.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

I don't think it's bigotry that is driving this issue so much as emotion, the people who oppose are good people just like the ones who support it are;for the most part; it boils down to private property rights for me, I have no emotional capital invested here.

I agree, that's why I also agree with those who talk of buying property right next door and putting up whatever they want, even if it is in the face of their Muslim neighbors.

It's about property rights.

EDIT: This is also my response to Shogun, the guy who thinks that acting angry and insulting people makes him right.


And not once have I, the creator of this thread, ever stated that those who wish to build the Cordoba center in that spot do not have the right to do so. What people, like myself, are saying is that the location is not a good choice for the obvious reasons that the attackers on 9/11 were muslims who used that faith as their motivation to murder 3,000 americans of all religions. Just like it would be bad to build a church in mecca and call it the crusaders church, it is and would be disrespectful to the inhabitants of the area.

Just because you have the rigth to do something doesn't mean you should. Examples of this can be found in the quote in the first post.

 

[boedicca]

If the promoters of Cordoba House were really concerned with Acceptance, Tolerance, and promoting Goodwill among those of other beliefs, they wouldn't be plowing ahead on a project that is hurtful to the majority of Americans. Symbolism matters. And the Symbol in this case is quite hostile.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

The name Cordoba represents religious waring and hatred between Christians and Muslims. First the muslims conqured cordoba, tore down their church, and build a mosque on the ground. Then the christians re-conqured the area, tore down the mosque, and built another church.

Here do some light reading Great Mosque of Córdoba - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Great Mosque of Córdoba, now known as the Catedral de Nuestra Señora de la Asunción (English: Cathedral of Our Lady of the Assumption) was a mosque built by the Umayyads on the site of a Christian Visigothic Church[1] in the Andalusian city of Córdoba, Spain. It is regarded as perhaps the most accomplished monument of the Umayyad dynasty of Córdoba. After the Spanish Reconquista, it was rebuilt as Roman Catholic church with a Gothic cathedral inserted into the centre of the large Moorish building. Today the entire building is used to house the Cathedral of the diocese of Córdoba in Spain.

 

[cad]

Actually, I think this is the best analogy or explanation I've seen thus for but I do have a question.

Where is the reciprocating "super bowl party" at, honestly, I can't recall an "olive branch" extended toward the Muslim community as a whole since 9-1 happened, that's why I strive to keep my emotions in check on this issue and limit it to what is and isn't lawful and Constitutional.

what kind of olive branch is needed? muslims have been welcomed in to this society just like christians, jews, hindus, buddhists, athests, wickers have been. have there been hate crimes? yes, but the last time i looked, hate crimes against jews are much more prevalent in this country.

I oppose hate crime legislation, we're probably pretty close on most issues cad or at least a lot of them, I see your posts, you seem like someone who loves his Country, peace.

i oppose the idea of hate crimes as well. if its a crime, its a crime. but these stupid stats exist, and they show jews are "targeted" more than muslims. do americans have a jew-hating problem?

 

[Bfgrn]

Charles Krauthammer Explains Problem With Ground Zero Mosque Perfectly

"A place is made sacred by a widespread belief that it was visited by the miraculous or the transcendent (Lourdes, the Temple Mount), by the presence there once of great nobility and sacrifice (Gettysburg), or by the blood of martyrs and the indescribable suffering of the innocent (Auschwitz). When we speak of Ground Zero as hallowed ground, what we mean is that it belongs to those who suffered and died there -- and that such ownership obliges us, the living, to preserve the dignity and memory of the place, never allowing it to be forgotten, trivialized or misappropriated. ... Religious institutions in this country are autonomous. Who is to say that the [near-Ground Zero] mosque won't one day hire an Anwar al-Aulaqi -- spiritual mentor to the Fort Hood shooter and the Christmas Day bomber, and one-time imam at the Virginia mosque attended by two of the 9/11 terrorists? An Aulaqi preaching in Virginia is a security problem. An Aulaqi preaching at Ground Zero is a sacrilege. Location matters. Especially this location. Ground Zero is the site of the greatest mass murder in American history -- perpetrated by Muslims of a particular Islamist orthodoxy in whose cause they died and in whose name they killed...

This is islamophobia. It is not an indictment of the crimes committed on 911, it is an indictment of Islam.

Ironic; the US Constitution the right always points to as a document that must never be ignored, is now an inconvenience.

 

[CurveLight]

So you will be able to see the tower from the mosque and the mosque from the tower.

I don't see how that changes the picture I showed you of the view where you can see, from ground zero, the 14 story building that stands on the proposed center/mosque lot. The mosque would be visible from the park in that picture of the plan you just showed just like the other building is now.

Examine those 3 pictures very carefully Ravi. On the bottom two Look for the blue rooftop and the area where the destroyed building is. On the top two you can see they are laid out in the same direction, compare those to get an idea of the mosques location then compare the bottom 2 and you can see that the top of the center will be visible.

There are only 2 buildings, one 10 stories high, between the lot for the mosque and ground zero.

The mosque will be visible from the tower...as will everything else in Manhattan. So fucking what? It won't be visible from the memorial.

As a matter of fact, the freedom tower will have its back to the mosque.

Again, the mosque won't be at Ground Zero...it will be two blocks away and invisible to those paying their respects.

The 14 story building standing on the lot for the center/mosque is visible now from ground zero as the mosque will be. The entirety of ground zero is the memorial including the tower, pools, and gardens.

The facts, as proven by the photographs provided (including your own), contradict your claims.

I don't think it's bigotry that is driving this issue so much as emotion, the people who oppose are good people just like the ones who support it are;for the most part; it boils down to private property rights for me, I have no emotional capital invested here.

I agree, that's why I also agree with those who talk of buying property right next door and putting up whatever they want, even if it is in the face of their Muslim neighbors.

It's about property rights.

EDIT: This is also my response to Shogun, the guy who thinks that acting angry and insulting people makes him right.


And not once have I, the creator of this thread, ever stated that those who wish to build the Cordoba center in that spot do not have the right to do so. What people, like myself, are saying is that the location is not a good choice for the obvious reasons that the attackers on 9/11 were muslims who used that faith as their motivation to murder 3,000 americans of all religions. Just like it would be bad to build a church in mecca and call it the crusaders church, it is and would be disrespectful to the inhabitants of the area.

Just because you have the rigth to do something doesn't mean you should. Examples of this can be found in the quote in the first post.

There are 9/11 survivors and familes that totally support the mosque being built. Maybe the problem is they are what you pretend to be: Americans.

 

[johnrocks]

what kind of olive branch is needed? muslims have been welcomed in to this society just like christians, jews, hindus, buddhists, athests, wickers have been. have there been hate crimes? yes, but the last time i looked, hate crimes against jews are much more prevalent in this country.

I oppose hate crime legislation, we're probably pretty close on most issues cad or at least a lot of them, I see your posts, you seem like someone who loves his Country, peace.

i oppose the idea of hate crimes as well. if its a crime, its a crime. but these stupid stats exist, and they show jews are "targeted" more than muslims. do americans have a jew-hating problem?

I don't know, I think our government is controlled too much by special interests and one of the most powerful lobbyist groups is the Jewish lobby and I think our Country's foreign policy is waaaaaay to entangled with Israel; among others; but I don't see people in the "real world " hating them.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Charles Krauthammer Explains Problem With Ground Zero Mosque Perfectly

"A place is made sacred by a widespread belief that it was visited by the miraculous or the transcendent (Lourdes, the Temple Mount), by the presence there once of great nobility and sacrifice (Gettysburg), or by the blood of martyrs and the indescribable suffering of the innocent (Auschwitz). When we speak of Ground Zero as hallowed ground, what we mean is that it belongs to those who suffered and died there -- and that such ownership obliges us, the living, to preserve the dignity and memory of the place, never allowing it to be forgotten, trivialized or misappropriated. ... Religious institutions in this country are autonomous. Who is to say that the [near-Ground Zero] mosque won't one day hire an Anwar al-Aulaqi -- spiritual mentor to the Fort Hood shooter and the Christmas Day bomber, and one-time imam at the Virginia mosque attended by two of the 9/11 terrorists? An Aulaqi preaching in Virginia is a security problem. An Aulaqi preaching at Ground Zero is a sacrilege. Location matters. Especially this location. Ground Zero is the site of the greatest mass murder in American history -- perpetrated by Muslims of a particular Islamist orthodoxy in whose cause they died and in whose name they killed...

This is islamophobia. It is not an indictment of the crimes committed on 911, it is an indictment of Islam.

Ironic; the US Constitution the right always points to as a document that must never be ignored, is now an inconvenience.

Where did he say in that quote, or in the link provided with it, that they do not have a right to build the church? Try reading a little before making a dishonest assesment of what the quote is saying. Re-read it.

And not once have I, the creator of this thread, ever stated that those who wish to build the Cordoba center in that spot do not have the right to do so. What people, like myself, are saying is that the location is not a good choice for the obvious reasons that the attackers on 9/11 were muslims who used that faith as their motivation to murder 3,000 americans of all religions. Just like it would be bad to build a church in mecca and call it the crusaders church, it is and would be disrespectful to the inhabitants of the area.

Just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean you should. Examples of this can be found in the quote in the first post.

 

[jillian]

What is wrong with stripper clubs?? Her body...her choice.

did anyone argue there is something wrong with strip clubs?

or did you think the little dig passed for humor?

Well golly gee, I sure would be all broken up inside if you didn't appreciate my comments.

I'm not the one here trying to make a comparison...but I think you know that, miss smarty pants.

why would i have appreciated it? it wasn't intended for anyone who thinks like me to appreciate it. it was intended for the echo chamber.

as it happened, i edited it out but you jumped on the post too quickly.

i can't help it if nasty little digs pass as funny to you.

 

[Sherry]

did anyone argue there is something wrong with strip clubs?

or did you think the little dig passed for humor?

Well golly gee, I sure would be all broken up inside if you didn't appreciate my comments.

I'm not the one here trying to make a comparison...but I think you know that, miss smarty pants.

why would i have appreciated it? it wasn't intended for anyone who thinks like me to appreciate it. it was intended for the echo chamber.

as it happened, i edited it out but you jumped on the post too quickly.

i can't help it if nasty little digs pass as funny to you.

No, it's just that you can't help making assumptions...which is your problem.