Civil Disobedience and Terry Schaivo

[MissileMan]

God passed this info to me through the Bible and through getting to know Him as a person.

If a mother refused to feed her baby, would that be allowing her to die or killing her? We have a moral obligation to help the helpless. "Whatsoever you do to the least of these, that you do unto me."

I most certainly believe in Heaven, and it seems like Terri would get there; being a devout Catholic, she would believe in Jesus, and hopefully have accepted His lordship. If she died and went to Heaven, she would be better off. However, the whole point is.... (drumroll).... This is not our decision to make. We are not the authors of life. We have no right to make editorial cuts! (I thought that was a good analogy, wasn't it?)

A very good analogy, except we make editorial cuts every day. We perform medical procedures by the millions that affect whether a person dies or not. The question is whether we are morally obligated to maintain the hopeless. Nearly the entire medical community agrees that she is not nor ever will be cognizant. So, to what end do we keep her body alive?

 

[Avatar4321]

you just don't understand how stupid that sounds.

Makes perfect sense to about everyone but you.

 

[SmarterThanYou]

Makes perfect sense to about everyone but you.

apparently not.

 

[Avatar4321]

If there were any REAL evidence that Terry is even the slightest bit cognizant, then Mom and Sis would have presented it to the courts. All it would take is a video camera if it were true.

You haven't seen the videos?

 

[Avatar4321]

A very good analogy, except we make editorial cuts every day. We perform medical procedures by the millions that affect whether a person dies or not. The question is whether we are morally obligated to maintain the hopeless. Nearly the entire medical community agrees that she is not nor ever will be cognizant. So, to what end do we keep her body alive?

BS there are a number of medical professionals saying she might be rehabilitated if they just bother trying. There is nothing hopeless about this. In fact nothing is hopeless unless you give up hope.

 

[MissileMan]

BS there are a number of medical professionals saying she might be rehabilitated if they just bother trying. There is nothing hopeless about this. In fact nothing is hopeless unless you give up hope.

Rehibilitated from the status of a houseplant to a biomechanical food processor...she has very little brain matter left in her head, there is no dispute that she'll NEVER be cognizant again. Whatever essence that made her Terry is gone, the only thing left is a shell.

What kind of hope is it that you think there is in this case? Maybe she'll be the first human being EVER to spontaneously regrow an entire brain? You would have fit right in on the OJ jury...

 

[Annie]

IMHO I don't think enough of us, on whichever side really have enough information to be calling names. I do have a problem with the federal intrusion, for the same reason that I have problems with Roe V Wade, it really is a state matter.

This has been a very out of the ordinary case from the beginning. I don't know if it is because the family had good media ties, political ties, or the husband is just that bad of a guy.

I do know now, heard about this a few hours ago, that it probably is NOT over:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=597180&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

Bush Returning to Washington Over Schiavo
Bush Changing Schedule to Return to Washington to Sign Emergency Legislation on Schiavo Case
By JENNIFER LOVEN
The Associated Press
Mar. 20, 2005 - President Bush is changing his schedule to return to the White House on Sunday to be in place to sign emergency legislation that would shift the case of a brain-damaged Florida woman to federal courts, the White House said Saturday.

"Everyone recognizes that time is important here," White House press secretary Scott McClellan said. "This is about defending life."

After Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was removed on Friday, members of Congress worked out a deal to pass legislation to allow federal courts to decide the 41-year-old woman's fate and in the hopes of supporters of the woman's parents restore the tube that was keeping her alive.

The House and Senate hoped to act on the legislation Sunday, so Bush decided he needed to be in Washington so he could immediately sign the bill, McClellan said.

"The president intends to sign legislation as quickly as possible once it is passed," McClellan said.

During previous travels, Bush has had legislation flown to him overnight by military plane for his signature. But in this case, McClellan said that the fact that a woman's life is at stake made it necessary for him to travel to the bill.

"Terri Schiavo's feeding tube has been removed and we stand with ... all those who are working to defend her life," he said.

Bush was spending the weekend at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, arriving there Friday night after a day traveling in Florida to pitch his plans to overhaul Social Security.

On Monday, he was to leave from Texas for a two-day trip in the West to continue pitching his Social Security proposals. Now, McClellan said, he would likely keep his Social Security appearances but depart for them from Washington instead.

On Wednesday, Bush is due to host Mexican President Vicente Fox and Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin at his ranch, and there was no indication that would change.

He was then to spend the rest of the Easter week before returning to Washington March 28.

McClellan said that Bush had not talked with any members of Congress Saturday about the case, but was kept apprised by his staff. He dismissed any suggestion that there were any political considerations at work, either in the quick and aggressive congressional action or the president's hurried return to the White House.

The Senate convened briefly Saturday evening to give formal permission for the House to meet Sunday, when it otherwise would be adjourned for the Easter recess.

The plan is for the House to act on the two-page bill Sunday or just after midnight Monday morning. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist said the Senate then would act on the House legislation, assuming it passes the House as envisioned.

 

[Bullypulpit]

There are many reasons people are unwilling to admit the finality of a diagnosis of a loved one being in a persistent vegetative state. There can be unresolved feelings of guilt, psychological projection and religious beliefs, all of which play a role in the denial of the reality of their loved one's true state. The whole issue becomes even more complicated when the patient opens their eyes. If they open their eyes and return to full consciousness, then it is a good thing. But if they do nothing more than open their eyes, with no other apparent signs of consciousness, it can only deepen the denial of those arounfd the patient.

This is what has happened in Teri Schiavo's case. She opens her eyes, but evinces no other signs of returning consciousness or awareness. Her parents, and other relatives, in their desperate need to see that their daughter and loved one will "come back to them" are projecting their own needs onto their her, their own denial of her true state only deepened. When God did not answer their prayers, they sought intervention from the state. At that point, it stopped being about Teri's stated wishes to her husband and became a political football which could alter the whole nature of how we, as a society, deal with end of life issues. What Teri's parents and others who are seeking to maintaint her current exixstence, I use existence because she is not truly living but merely existing, fail to realize is that sometimes the answer to one's prayers is "No."

 

[Annie]

As I said in the post before Bully's, I really don't see this as a good ploy. I wish FL would find a way to step in, but that looks unlikely.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050320/ap_on_go_co/schiavo_congress

House GOP Fails to OK Schiavo Legislation

51 minutes ago Politics - U. S. Congress


By JIM ABRAMS, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - House Republicans, seeing Congress as a last hope for brain-damaged Terri Schiavo, failed during an extraordinary Palm Sunday session to pass legislation aimed at prolonging the Florida woman's life.

Once Democrats refused to allow the measure to go ahead without objection, Republicans began scrambling to bring lawmakers, who had just started their Easter recess, back to Washington.


Majority Republicans called a recess after the four-minute session and said they planned to meet as early as one minute after midnight on Monday — if they get at least 218 of the 435-member House to attend.


The Senate awaited the chance for quick approval of a bill that congressional leaders said would allow Schiavo's feeding tube to be reconnected. President Bush (news - web sites) was cutting short a stay at his Texas ranch and returning to the White House by Sunday evening in hopes of being able to sign the bill.


"Her feeding tube was removed, so time was important at this point," White House spokesman Scott McClellan said, explaining Bush's decision to return to the capital. "Hours do matter at this point," McClellan told reporters aboard Air Force One.


He said the president had not made any calls to lawmakers about the legislation, drafted after an order from a Florida judge allowed Schiavo's husband to have the feeding tube disconnected on Friday afternoon. McClellan said the bill was an effort to give Schiavo's parents "an opportunity to save their daughter's life."


After Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., gaveled the House into session, Democrats made clear they would not let the bill pass on a voice vote. That meant the need for GOP leaders to gather the required number of lawmakers for a roll call vote.


The House has 232 Republicans, 202 Democrats and one independent.


Like McClellan, congressional Republicans denied that political motivations were behind legislative efforts.


"I hope we're not ... making this human tragedy a political issue," said Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record), R-Ariz. "We've got plenty of other issues that are political in nature for us to fight about."


The bill would give Schiavo's parents the right to file suit in federal court relating to the withdrawal of food and medical treatment needed to sustain the life of their daughter.


The bill states that the U.S. District Court, after determining the merits of the suit, "shall issue such declaratory and injunctive relief as may be necessary to protect the rights" of the woman. Injunctive relief in this case could mean the reinserting of feeding tubes...

 

[SmarterThanYou]

what happens, say, if this bill passes and the schindlers file in federal court and the federal courts rule the same as the state court? This will go all the way to the USSC and if they rule the same way? how loud will the cries of 'pro-death' and judicial activism be?


Hell is being someone elses cause.

 

[theim]

"I use existence because she is not truly living but merely existing"

I hear that takes some of the guilt away when you take a life. Does it work?

 

[5stringJeff]

the family is obviously biased.

And the husband - who has questionable motives - isn't?

 

[Bosox21]

It is sad that some of you people onyl hear what you want to hear. I got my facts from the doctors that have been and are currently working with Terri. YOu right wingers are getting your facts from politcains who havent seen or treated her. Lets see who should I belive? Funny thing now is they found a memo going around for the Republicans to support Terri because it will help them get points in the next election, but their just trying to help Terri, LOL.

I think it's fine you guys think Fox is fair and balanced, thats why I get my news from my fair and balanced source, Jon Stewart. Fox is one of the biggest hypocrasies, there is. They have people the preach the sanctity of marrige yet their same network runs shows called, who wants to marry a millionare, and Joe Millionaire. Nothing says love and honor than metting a person for 15 minutes and getting hitched does it.

As far as the death penalty your stance is agian hypocritical. I've heard for the past 4 days on TV Only god can take a life it's not for man to decide. Well if thats true it doesnt matter if the person commits a crime, it says only god can take a life. Unless there is some cluase I missed allowing for criminals, which I doubt.

"I do not think God approves the death penalty for any crime - rape and murder included. Capital punishment is against the best judgment of modern criminology and, above all, against the highest expression of love in the nature of God." Dr Martin Luther King Jr

 

[Annie]

It is sad that some of you people onyl hear what you want to hear. I got my facts from the doctors that have been and are currently working with Terri. YOu right wingers are getting your facts from politcains who havent seen or treated her. Lets see who should I belive? Funny thing now is they found a memo going around for the Republicans to support Terri because it will help them get points in the next election, but their just trying to help Terri, LOL.

Can't wait to hear your sources.

I think it's fine you guys think Fox is fair and balanced, thats why I get my news from my fair and balanced source, Jon Stewart. Fox is one of the biggest hypocrasies, there is. They have people the preach the sanctity of marrige yet their same network runs shows called, who wants to marry a millionare, and Joe Millionaire. Nothing says love and honor than metting a person for 15 minutes and getting hitched does it.

and FOX has what to do with this topic?

As far as the death penalty your stance is agian hypocritical. I've heard for the past 4 days on TV Only god can take a life it's not for man to decide. Well if thats true it doesnt matter if the person commits a crime, it says only god can take a life. Unless there is some cluase I missed allowing for criminals, which I doubt.

"I do not think God approves the death penalty for any crime - rape and murder included. Capital punishment is against the best judgment of modern criminology and, above all, against the highest expression of love in the nature of God." Dr Martin Luther King Jr

Bully for you, where are the citations from those arguing for Terri that they are for capital punishment? Links please.

You are posting nonsense and it isn't cogent.

 

[5stringJeff]

I think it's fine you guys think Fox is fair and balanced, thats why I get my news from my fair and balanced source, Jon Stewart.

You get your news from the Comedy Channel?? You must be a real academic...

 

[SmarterThanYou]

And the husband - who has questionable motives - isn't?

That, I didn't say. The history says that in deference to her parents, he allowed the courts to intervene and assign a pro-tem guardian for terri and let the courts decide the issue. They ruled that terri would not want to live this way AFTER weighing all witness reports and testimony.

 

[musicman]

Funny thing now is they found a memo going around for the Republicans to support Terri because it will help them get points in the next election, but their just trying to help Terri, LOL.

"THEY"???!!! What a humorous little person you are.

"I do not think God approves the death penalty for any crime - rape and murder included. Capital punishment is against the best judgment of modern criminology and, above all, against the highest expression of love in the nature of God." Dr Martin Luther King Jr

History would seem to indicate that Dr. King's head was up his ass on this one.

 

[Avatar4321]

It is sad that some of you people onyl hear what you want to hear. I got my facts from the doctors that have been and are currently working with Terri. YOu right wingers are getting your facts from politcains who havent seen or treated her. Lets see who should I belive? Funny thing now is they found a memo going around for the Republicans to support Terri because it will help them get points in the next election, but their just trying to help Terri, LOL.

Doing what is right does tend to get people reelected. Funny how that works isn't it.

I think it's fine you guys think Fox is fair and balanced, thats why I get my news from my fair and balanced source, Jon Stewart. Fox is one of the biggest hypocrasies, there is. They have people the preach the sanctity of marrige yet their same network runs shows called, who wants to marry a millionare, and Joe Millionaire. Nothing says love and honor than metting a person for 15 minutes and getting hitched does it.

Not that Fox is a real topic here but whats so unfair about fox? They give both points of view and let the viewer decide. Its not our fault that liberalism just doesnt look good compared to the truth.

BTW Fox News is a different division than the actual Channel. The only thing worth watching is the Simpsons.

As far as the death penalty your stance is agian hypocritical. I've heard for the past 4 days on TV Only god can take a life it's not for man to decide. Well if thats true it doesnt matter if the person commits a crime, it says only god can take a life. Unless there is some cluase I missed allowing for criminals, which I doubt.

There is a huge different between murdering an innocent person because they are sick and bringing to justice a serial killer.

The hypocritical positions is favoring life for hardened criminals and supporting the Fraticide of unborn babies.

"I do not think God approves the death penalty for any crime - rape and murder included. Capital punishment is against the best judgment of modern criminology and, above all, against the highest expression of love in the nature of God." Dr Martin Luther King Jr

Well, I am going to have to respectively disagree with Dr. King on this one. Capital Punishment is expressly commanded in the scriptures. In fact, Capital punishment is the reason we die to begin with. Adam broke the commandment of God and fell and his punishment was death. God is a God of justice as well as a God of mercy. God may be merciful but Mercy cannot rob justice. Thats the whole point of the Atonement. Christ suffered to satisfied the demands for justice, so He could extend mercy to all those that love Him on conditions of Repentence. Murder is a crime that is impossible to fully repent of because repentance involves restitution and man cannot store life. The only way those guilty of murder can repent fully is with their own life. Then the Atonement can take full effect.

 

[SmarterThanYou]

Doing what is right does tend to get people reelected. Funny how that works isn't it.

popularity doesnt mean right. otherwise explain ted kennedy.

 

[Avatar4321]

popularity doesnt mean right. otherwise explain ted kennedy.

Ted Kennedy is neither popular or right.