Civil Servants under attack by the Right Wing.

[Sallow]

The only XXXXXXX here is between your legs. Girly man.

Is this cocksucking idiot Shogun?

You like to have your cock sucked by Shogun?

Damn..I sorta knew you were a girly man..but I didn't know you were a full on Gayster.

It's okay..although I like women..I respect your type's life style.

Just don't stand to close.

 

[Harry Dresden]

In the article several times it is mentioned how the workers interviewed are taking this personally or are feeling as though their work ethic is being questioned. Not so.
And people must be reminded that this is not personal. This is business. This is the taxpayers saying ENOUGH!

yea right....how many Posts in the Threads in here about Govt Jobs do you see the Poster call Govt Workers Lazy useless fuckers?......in every thread it is said more than once....

 

[Trajan]

In the article several times it is mentioned how the workers interviewed are taking this personally or are feeling as though their work ethic is being questioned. Not so.
And people must be reminded that this is not personal. This is business. This is the taxpayers saying ENOUGH!

yea right....how many Posts in the Threads in here about Govt Jobs do you see the Poster call Govt Workers Lazy useless fuckers?......in every thread it is said more than once....

well we are...

 

[Harry Dresden]

The perks have to go first. Public workers should no longer be permitted to bank vacation and sick time. All banked time should be taken away immediately. This would prevent a mass retirement of eligible workers. The concept on this is simple....Paying people to NOT work is absurd. If these workers wanted or needed vacation ,they should have taken it in the year it was forthcoming. Very few private enterprises allow employees to bank ANY sick or vacation time.

Why?.....if i get X amount of Sick days a year....and i never call in sick....why should i not be able to bank them in case something happens and i might be off of work for a while,like an injury preventing me from working?.....the fucking Company sure as hell is not going to give a dam if i dont get paid.....they dont give a shit about you.....banking unused sick leave that you have earned,gives you pay for however many hours you have saved up...

 

[Harry Dresden]

really?.....but no attack on the people responsible for getting the Country to this point?....

And who might that be?

the fucking politicians who else....

 

[thereisnospoon]

Yes ,I have heard the "best and brightest" argument used many times in concert with the high wages of public workers. It's bunk.
A few years ago an article in the Bergen Record of NJ ran a story which made a lot of people in the pubic worker sector very angry.

[...]

I lived for most of my life in New York City and I was employed by New York City. While I'm retired and presently live in New Jersey I know virtually nothing about civil service policies here but I've noticed that New Jersey civil service workers have become the focus of public resentment. Based on some of the things I've recently read and heard there might be some valid cause for the complaints against New Jersey's civil service policies. But I see an impression taking form which presumes the same circumstances exist in the civil service policies of every state and municipality in America, which simply isn't true.

I know that most if not all New York City civil service unions base their salary and benefit negotiations on private sector analogues. But I am not aware of any New York City or New York State civil service union whose members derive the kind of excessive benefits presently attributed to New Jersey's union members. So I'm inclined to believe this generalized and all-encompassing attack on civil service unions is in fact the successful effect of a calculated effort on the part of an emerging corporatocracy, which is eminently represented by New Jersey's extreme right-wing Conservative governor Christy.

Ever since Ronald Reagan commenced the destruction of the American middle class there has been an incremental dissolution of unions along with nearly absolute stagnation of wages in all areas of commerce. There has been a consistently rising pattern of unemployment via the exportation of jobs and the consequent transfer of wealth from the hands of the dimished American working class to the coffers of a 1% minority -- the American neo-nobility. The super-rich.

There is no question that America is becoming a two-class society, the rich and the poor. It has taken thirty years for the corporatists who control our government via subornation to undo almost all of that which has been accomplished by FDR's New Deal. At this time the only thing standing in the way of total economic oppression by the rapidly emerging ruling class are the remaining labor unions. And because the corporatists do not have direct hands-on influence over the civil service unions it appears they are attempting to turn the public against this remaining bastion of middle class stability.

If the civil service wage and benefit standards have managed to outpace some segments of the private sector it is not because civil servants are greedy and spoiled. It's because the corporatocracy has managed to depress the wage and benefit standard of private sector employees -- which is why their CEOs are taking home multi-million and billion dollar bonuses. So instead of raising the bridge by giving more to their employees their current strategy is to lower the water by focusing their attack on the civil service unions in the hope of turning the public against them.

If New Jersey's unions are indeed out of line we need to take a closer look at them and make corrections where appropriate. But in the meantime I respectfully recommend that we do not allow what appears to be corporatist manipulation to incite us into working against our own interests by helping to lower the wage standard across the board. Instead we need to concentrate on raising the wage standard in the private sector by putting pressure on the super-rich who are pocketing our share of this Nation's wealth resources.

Don't let them turn us against the unions because the unions are all we have. They raise the bar for all of us!

NO....we are in this situation because the unions representing public workers got greedy and the workers complacent and entitled. In effect the unions LOWERED the bar. They did this by encouraging government to increase taxes to pay for the public worker benefits and wages. Those companies that could leave those states, did just that. I read a report that stated in the last 7 years nearly $70 billion in wealth has left the state....
If you live in NJ and do not know of that state's civil service policies I might ask you what it is you do in your retirement. This is a huge issue in NJ right now and if you own property in the Garden State all you have to do is look at your property tax bill.
The reason why private sector wages are not increased to meet union supported public sector wages is that businesses must generate their own revenue to pay employees higher salaries. Very simple concept. The company has to realize a profit in order to raise wages. Government needs only to increase taxes which for most politicians with union bosses supporting their campaigns is very easy to do.
It is the public sector worker wages/benefits in big union states that are unrealistic. Not the other way around. Ask any taxpayer.
Quite frankly there is too much government. All these so-called services are really unnecessary. The low tax states have figured this out.
In my home town in NJ of 4,700 people there are over 100 municipal employees.
The Dept of Public works which is nothing more than a glorified landscaping division has 25 people on the payroll making an average of $50,000 per year. HUH?....The DPW plows snow, repairs pot holes, runs a street sweeper, Vacuums up leaves from street sides in fall. Cuts the grass and maintains the ball fields in the town's two parks, collects yard waste once a week and has people in the town hall doing general busy work at the VOLUNTEER fire house, washing police cars, washing the town's two ambulances and various and sundry little things....All of this stuff can be contracted out to private enterprise at a huge savings......Earlier I mentioned the Borough of Fort Lee. You know where this is.. There are about 11,000 or so people in that town....In an article I read a couple of years ago, the town had over 300 municipal workers. One third of them made over $100,000 per year.....WHAT?!!!!! and more importantly WHY?!!!!!!
Spare us the nonsense of the rich and the poor.
The American middle class continues to grow.
Reagan....You're referring to the PATCO strike. The union knew very well it was illegal for federal workers to stage a work stoppage. They decided to call Reagan's bluff after he told them he'd have all striking PATCO members who went on strike, terminated from their postions. PATCO lost. Since then, there has never been a federal worker strike.
That had ZERO to do with any perceived destruction of the middle class. So you can stow that notion in the attic.
The bottom line is public sector unions are in bed with politicians who they support with campaign contributions and virtual 100% support from members at the voting polls. It's self serving.
In right to work states,public worker unions are held at bay in that while members can join, they do not enjoy collective bargaining rights. This protects the public from the kind of nonsense that we are seeing in forced union/civil service states. High taxes and crushing debt.

 

[thereisnospoon]

The reason is the taxpayers cannot subsidize these perks and high wages anymore.
Do you really think paying over $1,000 per month in property taxes is reasonable?

I live in Yorktown, VA - which many consider the mid-south.


Our property tax is $0.6575 per $100 of assessed value. Our home is valued at about $375,000 which means our property taxes are $2432.75 PER YEAR. ( LINK )


How about linking to your tax rates for your locality please. See property taxes (those associated with home ownership) are a function of the tax rate and the value of the home.

So it would be interesting to see what the condition are in your area. At the .6575 rate, the house would have to be valued at 1.7 million.. Or on the other hand you could get to that same tax rate by charging almost 5 times the tax as a 3.250 rate per $100 produces a tax bill of just over $12,000 per year ($1,000 per month).


So do you have an extremely expensive house and a low tax rate, or does your area have an extremely high tax rate even for modest houses?




>>>>

http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/pdf/lpt/gtr10ber.pdf

For example....The Borough of Northvale has a tax rate of $1.97 per $100 of assessed value. NJ requires valuations to reflect 100% of market value at the time of valuation..
The home I grew up in is a split level home on a .30 acre lot. It is a tract home built in 1962. It has since been added onto for what appears to be roughly 2,000 square feet.
The last reval for this home in 2008 was $535,000 .Most of that value is in the lot. Just $180,000 is in the structure.....At the above tax rate the annual tax bill is $10,539.50...over $800 per month....Now lets take The Borough of Midland Park....BTW home there are in a higher price point. They average over $700,000. But for clarity and fairness ,let's drop my old house in here.....Midland Park's town rate is $3.057...So that $535,000 home now has a tax bill of.....$16,354.95....or $1,362.91 per month....See where we are going here? IN all of NJ there are high tax rates. Some communities( Alpine being one) have high end homes topping 3 or 4 million dollars. The tax rate has been adjusted downward to bring about revenue neutrality with each revaluation.

Here's another example..Illinois which which has a civil service system with unionized public workers....Remember the movie "Ferris Buehler's Day Off"?....In that movie there was a home used for a scene. That home is located in a Chicago suburb of Highland Park.
There was a story on yahoo news that said the home is for sale...The asking price is $1.2 million...So I did some checking....in 2001 the home was assessed at $430,000. That township's tax website estimates the market value to be approx $1.3 million. The Highland Park tax rate is over $6 per $100 of assessed value...Meaning, the owner pays a whopping $24,000 per year in property taxes....$2,000 PER MONTH......

 

[thereisnospoon]

A house in Westchester county in NYS that sells for $700K will have property tax of well in excess of $12K. IIRC, 5 or 6 of the highest property-taxed counties in the US are in NYS.

OK, I think I get it.

Even though thereisnospoon's location is listed at mid-south it appears you are trying to justify his/her figure by picking an area that he/she doesn't pay taxes. BTW - at $700,000 on the home that would be about a rate of 1.75 per 100 of assessed value.


So thereisnospoon what is the value of your home and what rate do you actually pay in the "mid-south"?



>>>>

This is a right to work state. Our state constitution places limits on municipal and county governments. State and local political offices are NOT full time jobs. The position of mayor is essentially ceremonial. The same goes for the chair of County Commissioners. This is by design. Government functions as well if not better than in places where political offices are considered careers. Public service here is actually looked upon as public "service"....Yes, there are problems. With government ,when are there not.
We have the fifth highest gas tax in the US. Our top state income tax is 8%. Yep...That's a high number.
Property taxes here are low compared to other states. My combined town( 12 cents) and county taxes bring our per hundred rate to $0.78. My annual taxes are about $1,100 per year on a home with a tax value of $169,000.
In nearby South Carolina, property taxes are even lower. I have a friend who just finished moving into a house that he bought for $260k. His property taxes are about the same as mine.
How is this possible? We have adequate services. County water/sewer. Police/volunteer fire dept. Trash pickup costs $15 per month. Our town contracts with the County Sheriff's office to provide police protection/patrol. These deputies are exclusive to our town. This contract costs $800,000 per year. A town police dept would cost 4 times that. We don't need it. So how is this accomplished. Simple. We do not have a bloated municipal payroll full of non-essential employees with civil service protection and a union looking after their interests..That's how.
The concept of limited government could be installed anywhere.
Now you may ask, "what do these municipal workers do if they lose their government jobs?"...answer....Same as everyone else. Battle it out in the private sector. I see nothing wrong with that.

 

[thereisnospoon]

OK, I think I get it. Even though thereisnospoon's location is listed at mid-south it appears you are trying to justify his/her figure by picking an area that he/she doesn't pay taxes. BTW - at $700,000 on the home that would be about a rate of 1.75 per 100 of assessed value.So thereisnospoon what is the value of your home and what rate do you actually pay in the "mid-south"?

Highest property taxes in the country - Sep. 30, 2010

"Westchester County, N.Y., has the highest property taxes of all 792 high-population counties (65,000 and up) in the United States."

I didn't say that cherry-picking one of the most expensive counties wouldn't result in taxes in that range.

So most people live in $1,700,000 homes? Or even $700,000 homes?


Funny he didn't point out that Louisanna had a median property tax bill of $243 per year.




The point being that pulling a number out of thin air is not representative of very much. Are there people that pay $12,000 a year in property taxes? Sure, but most of us don't live in million dollar homes.



>>>>

Thank you for your service to the country...
Now, what is the point of bringing up Louisiana?...
The issue here is unionized civil service wokers who earn far above the prevailing market rate for their work and receive benefits and perks that those in the private sector( the ones that pay the taxes to support these) would only dream of. In these big union states, property and other taxes have skyrocketed to stratospheric levels. The resentment among the taxpayers is that while they struggle to get by, the people who are employed to serve THEM are retiring at an early age with free or very low cost medical insurance,saved up sick and vacation time( sometimes as much as two years worth paid weekly) and draw pensions equal to as much as 75% of their last two or three years average weekly or yearly earnings. Oh and these people are permitted to work as much overtime as they want to pad their wages in preparation for retirement.
Then there are the "double dippers"...Those who retire at say 50 years old from one government job and take another. They then become vested in that pension system and re-retire so they can draw TWO pensions.....
For them the system is gold plated. For the taxpayer in the private sector it's a kick in the gut.

 

[thereisnospoon]

In the article several times it is mentioned how the workers interviewed are taking this personally or are feeling as though their work ethic is being questioned. Not so.
And people must be reminded that this is not personal. This is business. This is the taxpayers saying ENOUGH!

yea right....how many Posts in the Threads in here about Govt Jobs do you see the Poster call Govt Workers Lazy useless fuckers?......in every thread it is said more than once....

Useless banter. It is not the perception of the majority.
However, to say there are not lazy or useless public service employees who don't give a rat's ass about the people they are supposed to be serving, is ignoring the facts.

Now, back to the subject matter at hand.
Look, what you or any other defender of the public sector says is immaterial. The era of these high wages and perks is over. They are unsustainable and unaffordable. The gravy train has left the station. There is no more money.

 

[thereisnospoon]

The perks have to go first. Public workers should no longer be permitted to bank vacation and sick time. All banked time should be taken away immediately. This would prevent a mass retirement of eligible workers. The concept on this is simple....Paying people to NOT work is absurd. If these workers wanted or needed vacation ,they should have taken it in the year it was forthcoming. Very few private enterprises allow employees to bank ANY sick or vacation time.

Why?.....if i get X amount of Sick days a year....and i never call in sick....why should i not be able to bank them in case something happens and i might be off of work for a while,like an injury preventing me from working?.....the fucking Company sure as hell is not going to give a dam if i dont get paid.....they dont give a shit about you.....banking unused sick leave that you have earned,gives you pay for however many hours you have saved up...

Holy shit...Those sick and vacation days are offered as a fringe benefit. They are not "earned" as part of the compensation package. In the private sector one cannot bank personal time off (PTO) days in perpetuity. Why should public sector workers get that perk?

Oh, to answer your question about the "company not giving a damn".....Umm the TAXPAYERS are the ones funding this. Ask them if THEY have the money for you to take two years off before your official retirement day.....
In the private sector, you use your vacation time or lose it. Then you get a new set of time the next year. Also. Iin the private sector sick days are NOT an entitlement. They are not to be used because you "just don't feel like coming to work" on a particular day. many companies have simply stopped offering "sick" days. They have all inclusive PTO days.
Te company where my wife works allows employees to carry over a max of 5 PTO days but one cannot have more than 10 extra PTO days saved. Sounds fair to me..
You people are by far the most self centered greedy individuals known to mankind. You care only for yourselves and don't mind screwing your next door neighbor( taxpayer) to get what you think you are entitled to.
The banking of time by public sector workers costs taxpayers billions of dollars and the sad part is most people do not know these shenanigans go on. If they did, they'd be furious.

 

[rhodescholar]

the fucking politicians who else....

So you admit that politicians buying votes from public sector unions by granting them ever higher, unsustainable pensions and benefits, is problematic for you? Congratulations for seeing the light

 

[Sallow]

really?.....but no attack on the people responsible for getting the Country to this point?....

And who might that be?

the fucking politicians who else....

To large extent I would agree with this..but it goes hand in hand with the desires of lobbyists who are on the payrolls of private interests. It extents to both parties although it is my opinion that Republicans bear most of the blame. And I find it interest that the right continues to attack people that run into burning buildings with over a hundred pounds of gear on their backs to save people or guys that will risk their lives coaxing some crazed nutbar from a bridge or guys that work against time to pry accident victims out of twisted metal or people with masters that teach kids how to read and write but will defend ad nauseum people that come with complex algorithms that fleece financial systems and bring the economy to a crashing halt while pocketing billions.

In NYC, Mayor Bloomberg, whom I have a great deal of respect for, brought Sanitation worker numbers to a level not seen in 3 decades. Then we were hit with some pretty major snow storms. Under manned the Sanitation workers had to deal with some very rough conditions. Some places didn't get plowed for several days. And the people that complained the loudest here were conservatives.

 

[Harry Dresden]

In the article several times it is mentioned how the workers interviewed are taking this personally or are feeling as though their work ethic is being questioned. Not so.
And people must be reminded that this is not personal. This is business. This is the taxpayers saying ENOUGH!

yea right....how many Posts in the Threads in here about Govt Jobs do you see the Poster call Govt Workers Lazy useless fuckers?......in every thread it is said more than once....

Useless banter. It is not the perception of the majority.
However, to say there are not lazy or useless public service employees who don't give a rat's ass about the people they are supposed to be serving, is ignoring the facts.

Now, back to the subject matter at hand.
Look, what you or any other defender of the public sector says is immaterial. The era of these high wages and perks is over. They are unsustainable and unaffordable. The gravy train has left the station. There is no more money.

your the one who said its not a personal attack on the workers.....and yet in many of the posts it is.....useless banter?....i dont think so.....

 

[thereisnospoon]

the fucking politicians who else....

So you admit that politicians buying votes from public sector unions by granting them ever higher, unsustainable pensions and benefits, is problematic for you? Congratulations for seeing the light

They know the benefits and wages are unsustainable. They see that when they get their tax bills.
Their objection lies in the disappearance of what they see as an entitlement. They see a way of life going away. They use the "CEO" straw man argument mixing in private sector issues into public sector.

 

[thereisnospoon]

And who might that be?

the fucking politicians who else....

To large extent I would agree with this..but it goes hand in hand with the desires of lobbyists who are on the payrolls of private interests. It extents to both parties although it is my opinion that Republicans bear most of the blame. And I find it interest that the right continues to attack people that run into burning buildings with over a hundred pounds of gear on their backs to save people or guys that will risk their lives coaxing some crazed nutbar from a bridge or guys that work against time to pry accident victims out of twisted metal or people with masters that teach kids how to read and write but will defend ad nauseum people that come with complex algorithms that fleece financial systems and bring the economy to a crashing halt while pocketing billions.

In NYC, Mayor Bloomberg, whom I have a great deal of respect for, brought Sanitation worker numbers to a level not seen in 3 decades. Then we were hit with some pretty major snow storms. Under manned the Sanitation workers had to deal with some very rough conditions. Some places didn't get plowed for several days. And the people that complained the loudest here were conservatives.

One last time....And let this sink in...No one is attacking the workers. The taxpayers in the private sector are objecting to their having to fund public worker wages and benefits.
The unions have convinced their rank and file to run with propaganda that turns this into a personal battle. It isn't.
Umm, ALL of the NYC news outlets ran stories with video of NYC Sanitation snow plow drivers SLEEPING in their trucks. In fact an illegal rule book slowdown by the union was uncovered. So don't hand us the "poor overworked and abused public worker" crap. it won't wash here.
Besides, any city or town could easily hire private contractors to do the job at a set rate.
The reason why this does not happen in because of the all powerful unions.
Oh, the second storm in NYC....streets plowed on time. Not a peep from anyone. Why? The Sanitation workers were actually WORKING instead of lolligagging.

 

[thereisnospoon]

yea right....how many Posts in the Threads in here about Govt Jobs do you see the Poster call Govt Workers Lazy useless fuckers?......in every thread it is said more than once....

Useless banter. It is not the perception of the majority.
However, to say there are not lazy or useless public service employees who don't give a rat's ass about the people they are supposed to be serving, is ignoring the facts.

Now, back to the subject matter at hand.
Look, what you or any other defender of the public sector says is immaterial. The era of these high wages and perks is over. They are unsustainable and unaffordable. The gravy train has left the station. There is no more money.

your the one who said its not a personal attack on the workers.....and yet in many of the posts it is.....useless banter?....i dont think so.....

Hardly the point. Since you opened the door. You hypersensitive useful maroons cannot get over the fact that their is a big difference between criticism and a personal attack.
This is about the protection of the taxpayers and the development of a more equitable system which places a balance between public and private sector wages and benefits.

 

[rhodescholar]

They know the benefits and wages are unsustainable. They see that when they get their tax bills. Their objection lies in the disappearance of what they see as an entitlement. They see a way of life going away. They use the "CEO" straw man argument mixing in private sector issues into public sector.

The public-union paid consultants have not been particularly creative when developing their obfuscation talking points. "Rich bankers" and "Wealthy CEOs" just aren't going to carry any weight with an audience over the age of 7 who has any grasp of basic economics.

 

[Barb]

Useless banter. It is not the perception of the majority.
However, to say there are not lazy or useless public service employees who don't give a rat's ass about the people they are supposed to be serving, is ignoring the facts.

Now, back to the subject matter at hand.
Look, what you or any other defender of the public sector says is immaterial. The era of these high wages and perks is over. They are unsustainable and unaffordable. The gravy train has left the station. There is no more money.

your the one who said its not a personal attack on the workers.....and yet in many of the posts it is.....useless banter?....i dont think so.....

Hardly the point. Since you opened the door. You hypersensitive useful maroons cannot get over the fact that their is a big difference between criticism and a personal attack.
This is about the protection of the taxpayers and the development of a more equitable system which places a balance between public and private sector wages and benefits.

It would not be a "balance," it would rather be a leveling of wages and benefits, and the only direction privately owned industry will level wages and benefits is down. Meanwhile, prices continue to rise, customer service continues to suck because of layoffs, and well, you will get what you advocate for, but it is in nobody's best interest what you are suggesting.

 

[Intense]

And who might that be?

the fucking politicians who else....

To large extent I would agree with this..but it goes hand in hand with the desires of lobbyists who are on the payrolls of private interests. It extents to both parties although it is my opinion that Republicans bear most of the blame. And I find it interest that the right continues to attack people that run into burning buildings with over a hundred pounds of gear on their backs to save people or guys that will risk their lives coaxing some crazed nutbar from a bridge or guys that work against time to pry accident victims out of twisted metal or people with masters that teach kids how to read and write but will defend ad nauseum people that come with complex algorithms that fleece financial systems and bring the economy to a crashing halt while pocketing billions.

In NYC, Mayor Bloomberg, whom I have a great deal of respect for, brought Sanitation worker numbers to a level not seen in 3 decades. Then we were hit with some pretty major snow storms. Under manned the Sanitation workers had to deal with some very rough conditions. Some places didn't get plowed for several days. And the people that complained the loudest here were conservatives.

Your head is stuck so far up Bloomberg's Ass, how do you even know what day it is Sallow??? Seriously... Who are you kissing up to? Maybe next year Bloomberg will take you to the Bahama's with him, is that it? Bloomberg wasn't even here during the Storm, but you know that. I personally know Sanitation Drivers that were put on hold, not plowing for 3to 7 hours in the Slow down. You can fuck yourself with your spin and your PC Ass Kissing. If you truly don't know the facts, the last thing you should be doing is lecturing others about what you know nothing about. Hiding behind Firemen is beneath you too Sallow. You have been away from the streets for too long Prima Donna.