Clearing The Misunderstanding

[Andylusion]

So are kids who don't pass entrance exams destined for a life making a crap wage of 25 or even 30 dollars an hour for life? That's telling them the dream is gone. Can they take the exam more than once? Will students be told what concepts, not questions, but what concepts are on the test so they can prepare? What are the other options for those who fail the entrance exam?

Well yes and no.

First, you are implying as if somehow it is different now.

It is not different now. The only difference is, I would be making the high schools more effective, and restore value to a high school diploma.

Right now, kids get through high school, have a diploma, and are still not qualified for anything but crappy low wage, garbage jobs.

The reason why, is because they were sent through public schools, without being educated.

Most high schools today are turning out diplomas that are worth less than toilet paper. And I know you think I'm exaggerating, but I have had to deal with people who had high school educations, and couldn't work a calculator effectively. And I mean a calculator. I'm not making this up.

So what I am proposing, isn't changing anything for the students who already will not learn. Those students, that would not be able to get into high school, are students that already come out of school unable to get a decent job.

Nothing would be different, except I would be restoring the value of a diploma.

To kind of validate my claim, when I was with a company that ran a warehouse, they were requiring that new employees, take a basic reading and math test. By basic, I mean 5 times 8. And word math problems, like "If you have six pallets with 46 units each, and the manager says ship 5 of them, how many did you ship?"

Why did they do this? Because people were showing up with high school diplomas, and were unable to do basic math, or understand simple directions.

So with that in mind, all I'm doing is preventing the absolute waste of millions of dollars on students that are not going to learn anyway.
And I'm allowing more students to get a quality education. Because problem students do not magically become good students, when they are around good students. Instead good student turn into problem students, when they are around problem students.

Again, this is why Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, most of the world operates this way. Kids that don't make the grades, are removed.

So what can we do with those kids? Well first off, there will be far fewer of them to begin with.

When kids learn they can't go to high school with their friends, unless they pass the test, they tend to study for the test.

But obviously there will be some that will not keep up no matter what. What do we do with them?

Well there were three basic options.
1. Have trade schools that teach pipe fitting, welding, electrician, carpentry, brick laying, construction, and so on.

2. Have special high schools specifically for under achievers. If I remember right, Finland has this. If you fail out, unable to get into any quality high school, and don't want to go to a trade school, you can go to these under achiever schools (My name for it), where you are put into bare minimum requirement educational system.

Now just to point out the obvious, students that get diplomas from those high schools, tend to get lower paying jobs, because the diploma is obviously, a lower level of education.

And lastly the military, or you are on your own.

I think that's fair all the way around. The students that are doing their best, are not hampered and hindered by boat anchor students that will never learn anyway.

And at the same time, all the problem students are given more than enough chances to make something of themselves.

 

[Andylusion]

Yes, I agree, except we can see clearly its not working.

Why are private and charter schools, having better results, if they don't have unions? In fact, why do the charter and private schools in your own post doing equally as well, without unions?

So something is missing from your equation, no matter how logical it sounds.

Again private and (some) charter schools have better results than some public schools because they have the ability to deny students-public schools don't. I've taught in classes full of gang members before (mostly Latin Kings)-you think they're going to be accepted to a private school?

Who do you think is going to care more about their education a kid from a family that values education enough to pay for private school, kids who meet the requirements for charter...or the kids who are in school to sell molly and break into houses on the weekend? At the first school I worked out we used to get arrest reports in our mailbox from students in our classes who were arrested. I'd have 2-3 a week. Come on now...

And just as I said before, that's *MY* point. All schools should be able to deny bad students, and thus improve educational outcomes.

If you are saying this reason above, is why X school does better, and why public schools do not, then we need to apply that system to public schools.... or we need to end public schools.

If you are saying the reasons they can't teach in public schools, is because of bad students they can't get rid of, and public schools can't end that policy.... then we need to end public schools.

The point of a school is to educate. If they can't educate because of a bad policy, then we need to either end the policy, or end the school.

What is the point of having 7 public schools in Baltimore, where 0% of students come out able to do math?

At the first school I worked out we used to get arrest reports in our mailbox from students in our classes who were arrested. I'd have 2-3 a week. Come on now...

And again, that is my point. You are making my point.

That would never happen in Japan. That would never happen in Finland. That would never happen in most of the world.

Because most of the world does not have such idiotic policies like "no child left behind". Heck no, they leave your butt behind.

They just kick your criminal butt out of school, and that's it for you. Good luck flipping burgers at McDonalds.

Because that's where such a person is going to end up anyway. Should we waste millions on millions of tax dollars, for people who is going to just end up criminals anyway?

In Finland, the moment a student shows up with disciplinary problems, they walk your butt to the door. You can go to a special boot-camp like school for trouble makers, or you simply don't go to school.

And this by the way, this is exactly why they have fewer problem children in Japan, and Finland and so on.

Your students know that if they go to jail, when they get out, they go right back to school. They know this. So they don't worry about being kicked out of school, when they get caught breaking into someone's car.

In Japan and others, the school gets notice that the police have you, they just remove your name from the enrollment list, and that's the end of that.

You think that makes students think twice about getting into trouble? Of course!

Again, everything you are saying, is exactly why charter and private schools do better. You are making my case for charter and private schools.

It is currently illegal for public schools in the US to deny entry for students living in their zone.

Personally I agree we need to end a lot of the policies that are becoming less and less strict for students. It's really getting out of hand what students can/can't do and get away with it is ridiculous. I'm not arguing about getting rid of bums in the schools-I agree with you. They have so many barriers in their way (our principal has tried to rid most of them but the school board wont allow it).

My point though is comparing private and/or charter schools that don't need to put up with that to schools that currently do is comparing apples to oranges.

It is currently illegal for public schools in the US to deny entry for students living in their zone.

Yes. Which is one of several reasons Charter and Private schools are better.

My point though is comparing private and/or charter schools that don't need to put up with that to schools that currently do is comparing apples to oranges.

That's ridiculous. If Ford automobiles had boat anchors that dragged along behind them, because of some government imposed rule.... would you say:

"Well you can't say that Toyota cars are better because they don't have boat anchors dragging behind them, because the Ford boat anchor is mandated by law"

Of course you can compare the two. The Toyota would still be better because it doesn't have a boat anchor dragging behind it.

The reason for the boat anchor, doesn't change the fact that Toyotas would drive better (and cause less damage), than Fords because they didn't have a boat anchor dragging behind the car.

Think about that in any other situation. If your grocery store was required by law, to leave vegetables refrigerated for 10 days, before selling them, and the other was not required to do this, would you say you can't compare the stores? Of course you can. One has stale vegies, and the other does not. Just because government is the cause, doesn't change the comparison, or reality.

Just because government has a horrific policy that ruins the school, does not mean the school must be considered good, when it is not. Or that you can't compare those schools, to schools that don't have that horrible policy.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

So are kids who don't pass entrance exams destined for a life making a crap wage of 25 or even 30 dollars an hour for life? That's telling them the dream is gone. Can they take the exam more than once? Will students be told what concepts, not questions, but what concepts are on the test so they can prepare? What are the other options for those who fail the entrance exam?

Well yes and no.

First, you are implying as if somehow it is different now.

It is not different now. The only difference is, I would be making the high schools more effective, and restore value to a high school diploma.

Right now, kids get through high school, have a diploma, and are still not qualified for anything but crappy low wage, garbage jobs.

The reason why, is because they were sent through public schools, without being educated.

Most high schools today are turning out diplomas that are worth less than toilet paper. And I know you think I'm exaggerating, but I have had to deal with people who had high school educations, and couldn't work a calculator effectively. And I mean a calculator. I'm not making this up.

So what I am proposing, isn't changing anything for the students who already will not learn. Those students, that would not be able to get into high school, are students that already come out of school unable to get a decent job.

Nothing would be different, except I would be restoring the value of a diploma.

To kind of validate my claim, when I was with a company that ran a warehouse, they were requiring that new employees, take a basic reading and math test. By basic, I mean 5 times 8. And word math problems, like "If you have six pallets with 46 units each, and the manager says ship 5 of them, how many did you ship?"

Why did they do this? Because people were showing up with high school diplomas, and were unable to do basic math, or understand simple directions.

So with that in mind, all I'm doing is preventing the absolute waste of millions of dollars on students that are not going to learn anyway.
And I'm allowing more students to get a quality education. Because problem students do not magically become good students, when they are around good students. Instead good student turn into problem students, when they are around problem students.

Again, this is why Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, most of the world operates this way. Kids that don't make the grades, are removed.

So what can we do with those kids? Well first off, there will be far fewer of them to begin with.

When kids learn they can't go to high school with their friends, unless they pass the test, they tend to study for the test.

But obviously there will be some that will not keep up no matter what. What do we do with them?

Well there were three basic options.
1. Have trade schools that teach pipe fitting, welding, electrician, carpentry, brick laying, construction, and so on.

2. Have special high schools specifically for under achievers. If I remember right, Finland has this. If you fail out, unable to get into any quality high school, and don't want to go to a trade school, you can go to these under achiever schools (My name for it), where you are put into bare minimum requirement educational system.

Now just to point out the obvious, students that get diplomas from those high schools, tend to get lower paying jobs, because the diploma is obviously, a lower level of education.

And lastly the military, or you are on your own.

I think that's fair all the way around. The students that are doing their best, are not hampered and hindered by boat anchor students that will never learn anyway.

And at the same time, all the problem students are given more than enough chances to make something of themselves.

Listen, up! As to your third choice, you need to get a grip! I graduated near the top of my high school class and joined the Navy as a nuclear propulsion operator. It was so academically advanced, I received a 4-year scholarship to college. My first shore duty was as a Navy recruiter. I now work for the Army in recruiting, so I think I know a little bit about what it takes to join the military. You apparently do NOT!

 

[mgh80]

Yes, I agree, except we can see clearly its not working.

Why are private and charter schools, having better results, if they don't have unions? In fact, why do the charter and private schools in your own post doing equally as well, without unions?

So something is missing from your equation, no matter how logical it sounds.

Again private and (some) charter schools have better results than some public schools because they have the ability to deny students-public schools don't. I've taught in classes full of gang members before (mostly Latin Kings)-you think they're going to be accepted to a private school?

Who do you think is going to care more about their education a kid from a family that values education enough to pay for private school, kids who meet the requirements for charter...or the kids who are in school to sell molly and break into houses on the weekend? At the first school I worked out we used to get arrest reports in our mailbox from students in our classes who were arrested. I'd have 2-3 a week. Come on now...

And just as I said before, that's *MY* point. All schools should be able to deny bad students, and thus improve educational outcomes.

If you are saying this reason above, is why X school does better, and why public schools do not, then we need to apply that system to public schools.... or we need to end public schools.

If you are saying the reasons they can't teach in public schools, is because of bad students they can't get rid of, and public schools can't end that policy.... then we need to end public schools.

The point of a school is to educate. If they can't educate because of a bad policy, then we need to either end the policy, or end the school.

What is the point of having 7 public schools in Baltimore, where 0% of students come out able to do math?

At the first school I worked out we used to get arrest reports in our mailbox from students in our classes who were arrested. I'd have 2-3 a week. Come on now...

And again, that is my point. You are making my point.

That would never happen in Japan. That would never happen in Finland. That would never happen in most of the world.

Because most of the world does not have such idiotic policies like "no child left behind". Heck no, they leave your butt behind.

They just kick your criminal butt out of school, and that's it for you. Good luck flipping burgers at McDonalds.

Because that's where such a person is going to end up anyway. Should we waste millions on millions of tax dollars, for people who is going to just end up criminals anyway?

In Finland, the moment a student shows up with disciplinary problems, they walk your butt to the door. You can go to a special boot-camp like school for trouble makers, or you simply don't go to school.

And this by the way, this is exactly why they have fewer problem children in Japan, and Finland and so on.

Your students know that if they go to jail, when they get out, they go right back to school. They know this. So they don't worry about being kicked out of school, when they get caught breaking into someone's car.

In Japan and others, the school gets notice that the police have you, they just remove your name from the enrollment list, and that's the end of that.

You think that makes students think twice about getting into trouble? Of course!

Again, everything you are saying, is exactly why charter and private schools do better. You are making my case for charter and private schools.

It is currently illegal for public schools in the US to deny entry for students living in their zone.

Personally I agree we need to end a lot of the policies that are becoming less and less strict for students. It's really getting out of hand what students can/can't do and get away with it is ridiculous. I'm not arguing about getting rid of bums in the schools-I agree with you. They have so many barriers in their way (our principal has tried to rid most of them but the school board wont allow it).

My point though is comparing private and/or charter schools that don't need to put up with that to schools that currently do is comparing apples to oranges.

It is currently illegal for public schools in the US to deny entry for students living in their zone.

Yes. Which is one of several reasons Charter and Private schools are better.

My point though is comparing private and/or charter schools that don't need to put up with that to schools that currently do is comparing apples to oranges.

That's ridiculous. If Ford automobiles had boat anchors that dragged along behind them, because of some government imposed rule.... would you say:

"Well you can't say that Toyota cars are better because they don't have boat anchors dragging behind them, because the Ford boat anchor is mandated by law"

Of course you can compare the two. The Toyota would still be better because it doesn't have a boat anchor dragging behind it.

The reason for the boat anchor, doesn't change the fact that Toyotas would drive better (and cause less damage), than Fords because they didn't have a boat anchor dragging behind the car.

Think about that in any other situation. If your grocery store was required by law, to leave vegetables refrigerated for 10 days, before selling them, and the other was not required to do this, would you say you can't compare the stores? Of course you can. One has stale vegies, and the other does not. Just because government is the cause, doesn't change the comparison, or reality.

Just because government has a horrific policy that ruins the school, does not mean the school must be considered good, when it is not. Or that you can't compare those schools, to schools that don't have that horrible policy.

It's the reason why SOME private and charter schools are better than SOME public schools.

I would say that the Toyota is performing better due to the current scenario it's operating within. This doesn't mean that the actual car is better than the Ford. Instead of a Ford make it a Porsche 911 Turbo vs a Corolla. Nobody-even in that scenario-would say "well you know that Corolla over there is really something special compared to that Porsche".

You seem to be painting a rather broad brush of public schools and I'm not entirely sure where that comes from. The notion that all public schools suck just isn't true, it's as untrue as the notion that every private and charter school is good. Some are, some aren't. I've had many kids come to my school from a charter (and some from private but not as many) who just average in class in terms of ability. Many students-especially AP and IB-kids at traditional public schools perform better than many students at charter schools.

 

[mgh80]

So are kids who don't pass entrance exams destined for a life making a crap wage of 25 or even 30 dollars an hour for life? That's telling them the dream is gone. Can they take the exam more than once? Will students be told what concepts, not questions, but what concepts are on the test so they can prepare? What are the other options for those who fail the entrance exam?

Well yes and no.

First, you are implying as if somehow it is different now.

It is not different now. The only difference is, I would be making the high schools more effective, and restore value to a high school diploma.

Right now, kids get through high school, have a diploma, and are still not qualified for anything but crappy low wage, garbage jobs.

The reason why, is because they were sent through public schools, without being educated.

Most high schools today are turning out diplomas that are worth less than toilet paper. And I know you think I'm exaggerating, but I have had to deal with people who had high school educations, and couldn't work a calculator effectively. And I mean a calculator. I'm not making this up.

So what I am proposing, isn't changing anything for the students who already will not learn. Those students, that would not be able to get into high school, are students that already come out of school unable to get a decent job.

Nothing would be different, except I would be restoring the value of a diploma.

To kind of validate my claim, when I was with a company that ran a warehouse, they were requiring that new employees, take a basic reading and math test. By basic, I mean 5 times 8. And word math problems, like "If you have six pallets with 46 units each, and the manager says ship 5 of them, how many did you ship?"

Why did they do this? Because people were showing up with high school diplomas, and were unable to do basic math, or understand simple directions.

So with that in mind, all I'm doing is preventing the absolute waste of millions of dollars on students that are not going to learn anyway.
And I'm allowing more students to get a quality education. Because problem students do not magically become good students, when they are around good students. Instead good student turn into problem students, when they are around problem students.

Again, this is why Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, most of the world operates this way. Kids that don't make the grades, are removed.

So what can we do with those kids? Well first off, there will be far fewer of them to begin with.

When kids learn they can't go to high school with their friends, unless they pass the test, they tend to study for the test.

But obviously there will be some that will not keep up no matter what. What do we do with them?

Well there were three basic options.
1. Have trade schools that teach pipe fitting, welding, electrician, carpentry, brick laying, construction, and so on.

2. Have special high schools specifically for under achievers. If I remember right, Finland has this. If you fail out, unable to get into any quality high school, and don't want to go to a trade school, you can go to these under achiever schools (My name for it), where you are put into bare minimum requirement educational system.

Now just to point out the obvious, students that get diplomas from those high schools, tend to get lower paying jobs, because the diploma is obviously, a lower level of education.

And lastly the military, or you are on your own.

I think that's fair all the way around. The students that are doing their best, are not hampered and hindered by boat anchor students that will never learn anyway.

And at the same time, all the problem students are given more than enough chances to make something of themselves.

1. Almost every educator and almost every person I know involved in education thinks that we should more alternatives in terms of teaching trades from a traditional high school. You're preaching to the choir.

2. We basically have these (alternative schools).

The real problem is the culture of America. Everybody gets a trophy, every kid passes due to having a pulse and a warm body, everybody gets 8675309 second chances, nobody takes any personal responsibility, etc. Just this morning I had a student from last year email me to see if I can accept late work and change his grade. School ended in May and it's nearly August now...I wrote back an email explaining no. Mom emailed me separately begging for him to pass. smdh.

 

[Andylusion]

So are kids who don't pass entrance exams destined for a life making a crap wage of 25 or even 30 dollars an hour for life? That's telling them the dream is gone. Can they take the exam more than once? Will students be told what concepts, not questions, but what concepts are on the test so they can prepare? What are the other options for those who fail the entrance exam?

Well yes and no.

First, you are implying as if somehow it is different now.

It is not different now. The only difference is, I would be making the high schools more effective, and restore value to a high school diploma.

Right now, kids get through high school, have a diploma, and are still not qualified for anything but crappy low wage, garbage jobs.

The reason why, is because they were sent through public schools, without being educated.

Most high schools today are turning out diplomas that are worth less than toilet paper. And I know you think I'm exaggerating, but I have had to deal with people who had high school educations, and couldn't work a calculator effectively. And I mean a calculator. I'm not making this up.

So what I am proposing, isn't changing anything for the students who already will not learn. Those students, that would not be able to get into high school, are students that already come out of school unable to get a decent job.

Nothing would be different, except I would be restoring the value of a diploma.

To kind of validate my claim, when I was with a company that ran a warehouse, they were requiring that new employees, take a basic reading and math test. By basic, I mean 5 times 8. And word math problems, like "If you have six pallets with 46 units each, and the manager says ship 5 of them, how many did you ship?"

Why did they do this? Because people were showing up with high school diplomas, and were unable to do basic math, or understand simple directions.

So with that in mind, all I'm doing is preventing the absolute waste of millions of dollars on students that are not going to learn anyway.
And I'm allowing more students to get a quality education. Because problem students do not magically become good students, when they are around good students. Instead good student turn into problem students, when they are around problem students.

Again, this is why Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, most of the world operates this way. Kids that don't make the grades, are removed.

So what can we do with those kids? Well first off, there will be far fewer of them to begin with.

When kids learn they can't go to high school with their friends, unless they pass the test, they tend to study for the test.

But obviously there will be some that will not keep up no matter what. What do we do with them?

Well there were three basic options.
1. Have trade schools that teach pipe fitting, welding, electrician, carpentry, brick laying, construction, and so on.

2. Have special high schools specifically for under achievers. If I remember right, Finland has this. If you fail out, unable to get into any quality high school, and don't want to go to a trade school, you can go to these under achiever schools (My name for it), where you are put into bare minimum requirement educational system.

Now just to point out the obvious, students that get diplomas from those high schools, tend to get lower paying jobs, because the diploma is obviously, a lower level of education.

And lastly the military, or you are on your own.

I think that's fair all the way around. The students that are doing their best, are not hampered and hindered by boat anchor students that will never learn anyway.

And at the same time, all the problem students are given more than enough chances to make something of themselves.

Listen, up! As to your third choice, you need to get a grip! I graduated near the top of my high school class and joined the Navy as a nuclear propulsion operator. It was so academically advanced, I received a 4-year scholarship to college. My first shore duty was as a Navy recruiter. I now work for the Army in recruiting, so I think I know a little bit about what it takes to join the military. You apparently do NOT!

What? What part did I get wrong? I didn't suggest that you take high school drop outs, and put them in charge of nuclear reactors.

Where did I say that?

But I think the very few kids that refuse to go to trade school, and are not qualified for high schools... I think they can drive a truck for the military supply chain.... don't you? I think they can do something for the military, don't you?

You made a rather absurd leap in logic in that post. Saying "join the military" doesn't mean "Build nuclear warheads for ICBMs".

There are many low-IQ jobs in the military, are there not?

 

[Andylusion]

So are kids who don't pass entrance exams destined for a life making a crap wage of 25 or even 30 dollars an hour for life? That's telling them the dream is gone. Can they take the exam more than once? Will students be told what concepts, not questions, but what concepts are on the test so they can prepare? What are the other options for those who fail the entrance exam?

Well yes and no.

First, you are implying as if somehow it is different now.

It is not different now. The only difference is, I would be making the high schools more effective, and restore value to a high school diploma.

Right now, kids get through high school, have a diploma, and are still not qualified for anything but crappy low wage, garbage jobs.

The reason why, is because they were sent through public schools, without being educated.

Most high schools today are turning out diplomas that are worth less than toilet paper. And I know you think I'm exaggerating, but I have had to deal with people who had high school educations, and couldn't work a calculator effectively. And I mean a calculator. I'm not making this up.

So what I am proposing, isn't changing anything for the students who already will not learn. Those students, that would not be able to get into high school, are students that already come out of school unable to get a decent job.

Nothing would be different, except I would be restoring the value of a diploma.

To kind of validate my claim, when I was with a company that ran a warehouse, they were requiring that new employees, take a basic reading and math test. By basic, I mean 5 times 8. And word math problems, like "If you have six pallets with 46 units each, and the manager says ship 5 of them, how many did you ship?"

Why did they do this? Because people were showing up with high school diplomas, and were unable to do basic math, or understand simple directions.

So with that in mind, all I'm doing is preventing the absolute waste of millions of dollars on students that are not going to learn anyway.
And I'm allowing more students to get a quality education. Because problem students do not magically become good students, when they are around good students. Instead good student turn into problem students, when they are around problem students.

Again, this is why Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, most of the world operates this way. Kids that don't make the grades, are removed.

So what can we do with those kids? Well first off, there will be far fewer of them to begin with.

When kids learn they can't go to high school with their friends, unless they pass the test, they tend to study for the test.

But obviously there will be some that will not keep up no matter what. What do we do with them?

Well there were three basic options.
1. Have trade schools that teach pipe fitting, welding, electrician, carpentry, brick laying, construction, and so on.

2. Have special high schools specifically for under achievers. If I remember right, Finland has this. If you fail out, unable to get into any quality high school, and don't want to go to a trade school, you can go to these under achiever schools (My name for it), where you are put into bare minimum requirement educational system.

Now just to point out the obvious, students that get diplomas from those high schools, tend to get lower paying jobs, because the diploma is obviously, a lower level of education.

And lastly the military, or you are on your own.

I think that's fair all the way around. The students that are doing their best, are not hampered and hindered by boat anchor students that will never learn anyway.

And at the same time, all the problem students are given more than enough chances to make something of themselves.

1. Almost every educator and almost every person I know involved in education thinks that we should more alternatives in terms of teaching trades from a traditional high school. You're preaching to the choir.

2. We basically have these (alternative schools).

The real problem is the culture of America. Everybody gets a trophy, every kid passes due to having a pulse and a warm body, everybody gets 8675309 second chances, nobody takes any personal responsibility, etc. Just this morning I had a student from last year email me to see if I can accept late work and change his grade. School ended in May and it's nearly August now...I wrote back an email explaining no. Mom emailed me separately begging for him to pass. smdh.

Right, and in a public school, the parents contact the administration, and they argue and protest, and if you make an issue out of it, then they have the student moved to a different teacher, and that teacher passes them, and they eventually get what they want.

I've heard stories like what you said, a dozen times. In fact, my own mother had this problem, because she had a problem child that refused to learn, the parent started arguing with her over it.

Again, what you just said is exactly why charter and private schools are better.

There is no arguing with the administration at a private or charter schools, because the administration doesn't care. They have a reputation to maintain of excellence, and if they start passing uneducated kids, that reputation will be wrecked, and then they'll lose money and go bankrupt.

Because their profits are exclusively based on educational reputation of the school.

Whereas a school district doesn't have to worry about making profits, only keeping government happy, which means not pissing off voters.

As long as mommy is happy enough to not vote badly in the election, the quality of education doesn't matter.

You should read Thomas Sowells book, "A personal Odyssey". He talks about running a special inner city education program, and everything was perfectly fine until one student decided they simply wouldn't do the work. He kicked the student out. The parents got involved, the administration got involved, and finally it was handed down that he was required to keep the student in class.

Then unsurprising to us on the right-wing, when all the other students realized they could get away with not working very hard, and there was nothing the teacher could do to remove them, the quality of educational work throughout the class fell dramatically, and Thomas Sowell turned in his notice that he would not continue teaching there.

Would that have happened at a private or charter school? No. It would not.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

So are kids who don't pass entrance exams destined for a life making a crap wage of 25 or even 30 dollars an hour for life? That's telling them the dream is gone. Can they take the exam more than once? Will students be told what concepts, not questions, but what concepts are on the test so they can prepare? What are the other options for those who fail the entrance exam?

Well yes and no.

First, you are implying as if somehow it is different now.

It is not different now. The only difference is, I would be making the high schools more effective, and restore value to a high school diploma.

Right now, kids get through high school, have a diploma, and are still not qualified for anything but crappy low wage, garbage jobs.

The reason why, is because they were sent through public schools, without being educated.

Most high schools today are turning out diplomas that are worth less than toilet paper. And I know you think I'm exaggerating, but I have had to deal with people who had high school educations, and couldn't work a calculator effectively. And I mean a calculator. I'm not making this up.

So what I am proposing, isn't changing anything for the students who already will not learn. Those students, that would not be able to get into high school, are students that already come out of school unable to get a decent job.

Nothing would be different, except I would be restoring the value of a diploma.

To kind of validate my claim, when I was with a company that ran a warehouse, they were requiring that new employees, take a basic reading and math test. By basic, I mean 5 times 8. And word math problems, like "If you have six pallets with 46 units each, and the manager says ship 5 of them, how many did you ship?"

Why did they do this? Because people were showing up with high school diplomas, and were unable to do basic math, or understand simple directions.

So with that in mind, all I'm doing is preventing the absolute waste of millions of dollars on students that are not going to learn anyway.
And I'm allowing more students to get a quality education. Because problem students do not magically become good students, when they are around good students. Instead good student turn into problem students, when they are around problem students.

Again, this is why Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, most of the world operates this way. Kids that don't make the grades, are removed.

So what can we do with those kids? Well first off, there will be far fewer of them to begin with.

When kids learn they can't go to high school with their friends, unless they pass the test, they tend to study for the test.

But obviously there will be some that will not keep up no matter what. What do we do with them?

Well there were three basic options.
1. Have trade schools that teach pipe fitting, welding, electrician, carpentry, brick laying, construction, and so on.

2. Have special high schools specifically for under achievers. If I remember right, Finland has this. If you fail out, unable to get into any quality high school, and don't want to go to a trade school, you can go to these under achiever schools (My name for it), where you are put into bare minimum requirement educational system.

Now just to point out the obvious, students that get diplomas from those high schools, tend to get lower paying jobs, because the diploma is obviously, a lower level of education.

And lastly the military, or you are on your own.

I think that's fair all the way around. The students that are doing their best, are not hampered and hindered by boat anchor students that will never learn anyway.

And at the same time, all the problem students are given more than enough chances to make something of themselves.

Listen, up! As to your third choice, you need to get a grip! I graduated near the top of my high school class and joined the Navy as a nuclear propulsion operator. It was so academically advanced, I received a 4-year scholarship to college. My first shore duty was as a Navy recruiter. I now work for the Army in recruiting, so I think I know a little bit about what it takes to join the military. You apparently do NOT!

What? What part did I get wrong? I didn't suggest that you take high school drop outs, and put them in charge of nuclear reactors.

Where did I say that?

But I think the very few kids that refuse to go to trade school, and are not qualified for high schools... I think they can drive a truck for the military supply chain.... don't you? I think they can do something for the military, don't you?

You made a rather absurd leap in logic in that post. Saying "join the military" doesn't mean "Build nuclear warheads for ICBMs".

There are many low-IQ jobs in the military, are there not?

Actually , no, there are not any low IQ jobs in the military. What even makes you think these academic failures can be successful in the military by passing the ASVAB test? Do you think we just assign the to their job based on what they think they can do? There is also a great deal of self-discipline that these failures often lack as the root cause of their problems.

 

[Andylusion]

So are kids who don't pass entrance exams destined for a life making a crap wage of 25 or even 30 dollars an hour for life? That's telling them the dream is gone. Can they take the exam more than once? Will students be told what concepts, not questions, but what concepts are on the test so they can prepare? What are the other options for those who fail the entrance exam?

Well yes and no.

First, you are implying as if somehow it is different now.

It is not different now. The only difference is, I would be making the high schools more effective, and restore value to a high school diploma.

Right now, kids get through high school, have a diploma, and are still not qualified for anything but crappy low wage, garbage jobs.

The reason why, is because they were sent through public schools, without being educated.

Most high schools today are turning out diplomas that are worth less than toilet paper. And I know you think I'm exaggerating, but I have had to deal with people who had high school educations, and couldn't work a calculator effectively. And I mean a calculator. I'm not making this up.

So what I am proposing, isn't changing anything for the students who already will not learn. Those students, that would not be able to get into high school, are students that already come out of school unable to get a decent job.

Nothing would be different, except I would be restoring the value of a diploma.

To kind of validate my claim, when I was with a company that ran a warehouse, they were requiring that new employees, take a basic reading and math test. By basic, I mean 5 times 8. And word math problems, like "If you have six pallets with 46 units each, and the manager says ship 5 of them, how many did you ship?"

Why did they do this? Because people were showing up with high school diplomas, and were unable to do basic math, or understand simple directions.

So with that in mind, all I'm doing is preventing the absolute waste of millions of dollars on students that are not going to learn anyway.
And I'm allowing more students to get a quality education. Because problem students do not magically become good students, when they are around good students. Instead good student turn into problem students, when they are around problem students.

Again, this is why Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, most of the world operates this way. Kids that don't make the grades, are removed.

So what can we do with those kids? Well first off, there will be far fewer of them to begin with.

When kids learn they can't go to high school with their friends, unless they pass the test, they tend to study for the test.

But obviously there will be some that will not keep up no matter what. What do we do with them?

Well there were three basic options.
1. Have trade schools that teach pipe fitting, welding, electrician, carpentry, brick laying, construction, and so on.

2. Have special high schools specifically for under achievers. If I remember right, Finland has this. If you fail out, unable to get into any quality high school, and don't want to go to a trade school, you can go to these under achiever schools (My name for it), where you are put into bare minimum requirement educational system.

Now just to point out the obvious, students that get diplomas from those high schools, tend to get lower paying jobs, because the diploma is obviously, a lower level of education.

And lastly the military, or you are on your own.

I think that's fair all the way around. The students that are doing their best, are not hampered and hindered by boat anchor students that will never learn anyway.

And at the same time, all the problem students are given more than enough chances to make something of themselves.

Listen, up! As to your third choice, you need to get a grip! I graduated near the top of my high school class and joined the Navy as a nuclear propulsion operator. It was so academically advanced, I received a 4-year scholarship to college. My first shore duty was as a Navy recruiter. I now work for the Army in recruiting, so I think I know a little bit about what it takes to join the military. You apparently do NOT!

What? What part did I get wrong? I didn't suggest that you take high school drop outs, and put them in charge of nuclear reactors.

Where did I say that?

But I think the very few kids that refuse to go to trade school, and are not qualified for high schools... I think they can drive a truck for the military supply chain.... don't you? I think they can do something for the military, don't you?

You made a rather absurd leap in logic in that post. Saying "join the military" doesn't mean "Build nuclear warheads for ICBMs".

There are many low-IQ jobs in the military, are there not?

Actually , no, there are not any low IQ jobs in the military. What even makes you think these academic failures can be successful in the military by passing the ASVAB test? Do you think we just assign the to their job based on what they think they can do? There is also a great deal of self-discipline that these failures often lack as the root cause of their problems.

Honestly I was excluding people with zero self-discipline. I said before, either join the military or you are on your own.

Well the people whose problem is zero self-discipline, I'm assuming they would just be on their own.

Because there is nothing anyone can do with such people. They are a waste of tax money in public schools, and they are not going to learn a trade skills... so... McDonald's.

You think forcing them into public schools, under the theory of "no child left behind" is going to make them successful, because you passed a person with a 5th grade reading level, and gave them a diploma?

I know you don't believe that. But that's what is happening.

The people I thought could join the military, are the ones who can't cut it, but are willing to work. The people who might not have academic skills, but nevertheless can drive a truck, build latrines, and carry supplies.

If I am wrong, then... McDonald's for them to. Again, no matter what they do, it's still better than shuffling them through public schools, at the cost of millions, to have them come out unable to work a calculator.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

So are kids who don't pass entrance exams destined for a life making a crap wage of 25 or even 30 dollars an hour for life? That's telling them the dream is gone. Can they take the exam more than once? Will students be told what concepts, not questions, but what concepts are on the test so they can prepare? What are the other options for those who fail the entrance exam?

Well yes and no.

First, you are implying as if somehow it is different now.

It is not different now. The only difference is, I would be making the high schools more effective, and restore value to a high school diploma.

Right now, kids get through high school, have a diploma, and are still not qualified for anything but crappy low wage, garbage jobs.

The reason why, is because they were sent through public schools, without being educated.

Most high schools today are turning out diplomas that are worth less than toilet paper. And I know you think I'm exaggerating, but I have had to deal with people who had high school educations, and couldn't work a calculator effectively. And I mean a calculator. I'm not making this up.

So what I am proposing, isn't changing anything for the students who already will not learn. Those students, that would not be able to get into high school, are students that already come out of school unable to get a decent job.

Nothing would be different, except I would be restoring the value of a diploma.

To kind of validate my claim, when I was with a company that ran a warehouse, they were requiring that new employees, take a basic reading and math test. By basic, I mean 5 times 8. And word math problems, like "If you have six pallets with 46 units each, and the manager says ship 5 of them, how many did you ship?"

Why did they do this? Because people were showing up with high school diplomas, and were unable to do basic math, or understand simple directions.

So with that in mind, all I'm doing is preventing the absolute waste of millions of dollars on students that are not going to learn anyway.
And I'm allowing more students to get a quality education. Because problem students do not magically become good students, when they are around good students. Instead good student turn into problem students, when they are around problem students.

Again, this is why Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, most of the world operates this way. Kids that don't make the grades, are removed.

So what can we do with those kids? Well first off, there will be far fewer of them to begin with.

When kids learn they can't go to high school with their friends, unless they pass the test, they tend to study for the test.

But obviously there will be some that will not keep up no matter what. What do we do with them?

Well there were three basic options.
1. Have trade schools that teach pipe fitting, welding, electrician, carpentry, brick laying, construction, and so on.

2. Have special high schools specifically for under achievers. If I remember right, Finland has this. If you fail out, unable to get into any quality high school, and don't want to go to a trade school, you can go to these under achiever schools (My name for it), where you are put into bare minimum requirement educational system.

Now just to point out the obvious, students that get diplomas from those high schools, tend to get lower paying jobs, because the diploma is obviously, a lower level of education.

And lastly the military, or you are on your own.

I think that's fair all the way around. The students that are doing their best, are not hampered and hindered by boat anchor students that will never learn anyway.

And at the same time, all the problem students are given more than enough chances to make something of themselves.

Listen, up! As to your third choice, you need to get a grip! I graduated near the top of my high school class and joined the Navy as a nuclear propulsion operator. It was so academically advanced, I received a 4-year scholarship to college. My first shore duty was as a Navy recruiter. I now work for the Army in recruiting, so I think I know a little bit about what it takes to join the military. You apparently do NOT!

What? What part did I get wrong? I didn't suggest that you take high school drop outs, and put them in charge of nuclear reactors.

Where did I say that?

But I think the very few kids that refuse to go to trade school, and are not qualified for high schools... I think they can drive a truck for the military supply chain.... don't you? I think they can do something for the military, don't you?

You made a rather absurd leap in logic in that post. Saying "join the military" doesn't mean "Build nuclear warheads for ICBMs".

There are many low-IQ jobs in the military, are there not?

Actually , no, there are not any low IQ jobs in the military. What even makes you think these academic failures can be successful in the military by passing the ASVAB test? Do you think we just assign the to their job based on what they think they can do? There is also a great deal of self-discipline that these failures often lack as the root cause of their problems.

Honestly I was excluding people with zero self-discipline. I said before, either join the military or you are on your own.

Well the people whose problem is zero self-discipline, I'm assuming they would just be on their own.

Because there is nothing anyone can do with such people. They are a waste of tax money in public schools, and they are not going to learn a trade skills... so... McDonald's.

You think forcing them into public schools, under the theory of "no child left behind" is going to make them successful, because you passed a person with a 5th grade reading level, and gave them a diploma?

I know you don't believe that. But that's what is happening.

The people I thought could join the military, are the ones who can't cut it, but are willing to work. The people who might not have academic skills, but nevertheless can drive a truck, build latrines, and carry supplies.

If I am wrong, then... McDonald's for them to. Again, no matter what they do, it's still better than shuffling them through public schools, at the cost of millions, to have them come out unable to work a calculator.

We had a comprehensive academic test in Florida which students were required to pass before graduation. They had to do away with it. Why, you ask? Parents were tired of Little Johnnie or Little Susie from being held accountable for their education. Elected state legislators did away with it, or face losing their reelection bid. Again, not the teacher's problem!

 

[Rev.Hellh0und]

io
Government employees should not be allowed to have unions. They weren't for 200+ years.

Whether they should or not does not fall under "allowed."

The language of the Constitution is clear: the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

That's exactly what unions do.



Now....whether public unions or any unions, are in the best interests of the nation, that's a political question, rather than a legal one.....meaning, legislatures can carve out an exception, and the courts can determine if it fits the Constitutions clear language, or if an amendment is called for.


But.....if you understand the nature of politicians, you know it will never happen.


I'll provide a post as to how Franklin Roosevelt got the Supreme Court to anoint the unions as untouchable.

but if you work for the government, you.... wait for it.... ARE THE GOVERNMENT.

 

[Andylusion]

So are kids who don't pass entrance exams destined for a life making a crap wage of 25 or even 30 dollars an hour for life? That's telling them the dream is gone. Can they take the exam more than once? Will students be told what concepts, not questions, but what concepts are on the test so they can prepare? What are the other options for those who fail the entrance exam?

Well yes and no.

First, you are implying as if somehow it is different now.

It is not different now. The only difference is, I would be making the high schools more effective, and restore value to a high school diploma.

Right now, kids get through high school, have a diploma, and are still not qualified for anything but crappy low wage, garbage jobs.

The reason why, is because they were sent through public schools, without being educated.

Most high schools today are turning out diplomas that are worth less than toilet paper. And I know you think I'm exaggerating, but I have had to deal with people who had high school educations, and couldn't work a calculator effectively. And I mean a calculator. I'm not making this up.

So what I am proposing, isn't changing anything for the students who already will not learn. Those students, that would not be able to get into high school, are students that already come out of school unable to get a decent job.

Nothing would be different, except I would be restoring the value of a diploma.

To kind of validate my claim, when I was with a company that ran a warehouse, they were requiring that new employees, take a basic reading and math test. By basic, I mean 5 times 8. And word math problems, like "If you have six pallets with 46 units each, and the manager says ship 5 of them, how many did you ship?"

Why did they do this? Because people were showing up with high school diplomas, and were unable to do basic math, or understand simple directions.

So with that in mind, all I'm doing is preventing the absolute waste of millions of dollars on students that are not going to learn anyway.
And I'm allowing more students to get a quality education. Because problem students do not magically become good students, when they are around good students. Instead good student turn into problem students, when they are around problem students.

Again, this is why Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, most of the world operates this way. Kids that don't make the grades, are removed.

So what can we do with those kids? Well first off, there will be far fewer of them to begin with.

When kids learn they can't go to high school with their friends, unless they pass the test, they tend to study for the test.

But obviously there will be some that will not keep up no matter what. What do we do with them?

Well there were three basic options.
1. Have trade schools that teach pipe fitting, welding, electrician, carpentry, brick laying, construction, and so on.

2. Have special high schools specifically for under achievers. If I remember right, Finland has this. If you fail out, unable to get into any quality high school, and don't want to go to a trade school, you can go to these under achiever schools (My name for it), where you are put into bare minimum requirement educational system.

Now just to point out the obvious, students that get diplomas from those high schools, tend to get lower paying jobs, because the diploma is obviously, a lower level of education.

And lastly the military, or you are on your own.

I think that's fair all the way around. The students that are doing their best, are not hampered and hindered by boat anchor students that will never learn anyway.

And at the same time, all the problem students are given more than enough chances to make something of themselves.

Listen, up! As to your third choice, you need to get a grip! I graduated near the top of my high school class and joined the Navy as a nuclear propulsion operator. It was so academically advanced, I received a 4-year scholarship to college. My first shore duty was as a Navy recruiter. I now work for the Army in recruiting, so I think I know a little bit about what it takes to join the military. You apparently do NOT!

What? What part did I get wrong? I didn't suggest that you take high school drop outs, and put them in charge of nuclear reactors.

Where did I say that?

But I think the very few kids that refuse to go to trade school, and are not qualified for high schools... I think they can drive a truck for the military supply chain.... don't you? I think they can do something for the military, don't you?

You made a rather absurd leap in logic in that post. Saying "join the military" doesn't mean "Build nuclear warheads for ICBMs".

There are many low-IQ jobs in the military, are there not?

Actually , no, there are not any low IQ jobs in the military. What even makes you think these academic failures can be successful in the military by passing the ASVAB test? Do you think we just assign the to their job based on what they think they can do? There is also a great deal of self-discipline that these failures often lack as the root cause of their problems.

Honestly I was excluding people with zero self-discipline. I said before, either join the military or you are on your own.

Well the people whose problem is zero self-discipline, I'm assuming they would just be on their own.

Because there is nothing anyone can do with such people. They are a waste of tax money in public schools, and they are not going to learn a trade skills... so... McDonald's.

You think forcing them into public schools, under the theory of "no child left behind" is going to make them successful, because you passed a person with a 5th grade reading level, and gave them a diploma?

I know you don't believe that. But that's what is happening.

The people I thought could join the military, are the ones who can't cut it, but are willing to work. The people who might not have academic skills, but nevertheless can drive a truck, build latrines, and carry supplies.

If I am wrong, then... McDonald's for them to. Again, no matter what they do, it's still better than shuffling them through public schools, at the cost of millions, to have them come out unable to work a calculator.

We had a comprehensive academic test in Florida which students were required to pass before graduation. They had to do away with it. Why, you ask? Parents were tired of Little Johnnie or Little Susie from being held accountable for their education. Elected state legislators did away with it, or face losing their reelection bid. Again, not the teacher's problem!

I never said that teachers were exclusively the problem. Where did you get that from?

Everything you said, I agree with. This again is why my solution is charter and private schools, where parents can whiny and cry all they want, because the schools are not accountable to politicians.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

So are kids who don't pass entrance exams destined for a life making a crap wage of 25 or even 30 dollars an hour for life? That's telling them the dream is gone. Can they take the exam more than once? Will students be told what concepts, not questions, but what concepts are on the test so they can prepare? What are the other options for those who fail the entrance exam?

Well yes and no.

First, you are implying as if somehow it is different now.

It is not different now. The only difference is, I would be making the high schools more effective, and restore value to a high school diploma.

Right now, kids get through high school, have a diploma, and are still not qualified for anything but crappy low wage, garbage jobs.

The reason why, is because they were sent through public schools, without being educated.

Most high schools today are turning out diplomas that are worth less than toilet paper. And I know you think I'm exaggerating, but I have had to deal with people who had high school educations, and couldn't work a calculator effectively. And I mean a calculator. I'm not making this up.

So what I am proposing, isn't changing anything for the students who already will not learn. Those students, that would not be able to get into high school, are students that already come out of school unable to get a decent job.

Nothing would be different, except I would be restoring the value of a diploma.

To kind of validate my claim, when I was with a company that ran a warehouse, they were requiring that new employees, take a basic reading and math test. By basic, I mean 5 times 8. And word math problems, like "If you have six pallets with 46 units each, and the manager says ship 5 of them, how many did you ship?"

Why did they do this? Because people were showing up with high school diplomas, and were unable to do basic math, or understand simple directions.

So with that in mind, all I'm doing is preventing the absolute waste of millions of dollars on students that are not going to learn anyway.
And I'm allowing more students to get a quality education. Because problem students do not magically become good students, when they are around good students. Instead good student turn into problem students, when they are around problem students.

Again, this is why Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, most of the world operates this way. Kids that don't make the grades, are removed.

So what can we do with those kids? Well first off, there will be far fewer of them to begin with.

When kids learn they can't go to high school with their friends, unless they pass the test, they tend to study for the test.

But obviously there will be some that will not keep up no matter what. What do we do with them?

Well there were three basic options.
1. Have trade schools that teach pipe fitting, welding, electrician, carpentry, brick laying, construction, and so on.

2. Have special high schools specifically for under achievers. If I remember right, Finland has this. If you fail out, unable to get into any quality high school, and don't want to go to a trade school, you can go to these under achiever schools (My name for it), where you are put into bare minimum requirement educational system.

Now just to point out the obvious, students that get diplomas from those high schools, tend to get lower paying jobs, because the diploma is obviously, a lower level of education.

And lastly the military, or you are on your own.

I think that's fair all the way around. The students that are doing their best, are not hampered and hindered by boat anchor students that will never learn anyway.

And at the same time, all the problem students are given more than enough chances to make something of themselves.

1. Almost every educator and almost every person I know involved in education thinks that we should more alternatives in terms of teaching trades from a traditional high school. You're preaching to the choir.

2. We basically have these (alternative schools).

The real problem is the culture of America. Everybody gets a trophy, every kid passes due to having a pulse and a warm body, everybody gets 8675309 second chances, nobody takes any personal responsibility, etc. Just this morning I had a student from last year email me to see if I can accept late work and change his grade. School ended in May and it's nearly August now...I wrote back an email explaining no. Mom emailed me separately begging for him to pass. smdh.

Right, and in a public school, the parents contact the administration, and they argue and protest, and if you make an issue out of it, then they have the student moved to a different teacher, and that teacher passes them, and they eventually get what they want.

I've heard stories like what you said, a dozen times. In fact, my own mother had this problem, because she had a problem child that refused to learn, the parent started arguing with her over it.

Again, what you just said is exactly why charter and private schools are better.

There is no arguing with the administration at a private or charter schools, because the administration doesn't care. They have a reputation to maintain of excellence, and if they start passing uneducated kids, that reputation will be wrecked, and then they'll lose money and go bankrupt.

Because their profits are exclusively based on educational reputation of the school.

Whereas a school district doesn't have to worry about making profits, only keeping government happy, which means not pissing off voters.

As long as mommy is happy enough to not vote badly in the election, the quality of education doesn't matter.

You should read Thomas Sowells book, "A personal Odyssey". He talks about running a special inner city education program, and everything was perfectly fine until one student decided they simply wouldn't do the work. He kicked the student out. The parents got involved, the administration got involved, and finally it was handed down that he was required to keep the student in class.

Then unsurprising to us on the right-wing, when all the other students realized they could get away with not working very hard, and there was nothing the teacher could do to remove them, the quality of educational work throughout the class fell dramatically, and Thomas Sowell turned in his notice that he would not continue teaching there.

Would that have happened at a private or charter school? No. It would not.

Hey bonehead! Charter schools ARE public schools!

 

[Andylusion]

So are kids who don't pass entrance exams destined for a life making a crap wage of 25 or even 30 dollars an hour for life? That's telling them the dream is gone. Can they take the exam more than once? Will students be told what concepts, not questions, but what concepts are on the test so they can prepare? What are the other options for those who fail the entrance exam?

Well yes and no.

First, you are implying as if somehow it is different now.

It is not different now. The only difference is, I would be making the high schools more effective, and restore value to a high school diploma.

Right now, kids get through high school, have a diploma, and are still not qualified for anything but crappy low wage, garbage jobs.

The reason why, is because they were sent through public schools, without being educated.

Most high schools today are turning out diplomas that are worth less than toilet paper. And I know you think I'm exaggerating, but I have had to deal with people who had high school educations, and couldn't work a calculator effectively. And I mean a calculator. I'm not making this up.

So what I am proposing, isn't changing anything for the students who already will not learn. Those students, that would not be able to get into high school, are students that already come out of school unable to get a decent job.

Nothing would be different, except I would be restoring the value of a diploma.

To kind of validate my claim, when I was with a company that ran a warehouse, they were requiring that new employees, take a basic reading and math test. By basic, I mean 5 times 8. And word math problems, like "If you have six pallets with 46 units each, and the manager says ship 5 of them, how many did you ship?"

Why did they do this? Because people were showing up with high school diplomas, and were unable to do basic math, or understand simple directions.

So with that in mind, all I'm doing is preventing the absolute waste of millions of dollars on students that are not going to learn anyway.
And I'm allowing more students to get a quality education. Because problem students do not magically become good students, when they are around good students. Instead good student turn into problem students, when they are around problem students.

Again, this is why Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, most of the world operates this way. Kids that don't make the grades, are removed.

So what can we do with those kids? Well first off, there will be far fewer of them to begin with.

When kids learn they can't go to high school with their friends, unless they pass the test, they tend to study for the test.

But obviously there will be some that will not keep up no matter what. What do we do with them?

Well there were three basic options.
1. Have trade schools that teach pipe fitting, welding, electrician, carpentry, brick laying, construction, and so on.

2. Have special high schools specifically for under achievers. If I remember right, Finland has this. If you fail out, unable to get into any quality high school, and don't want to go to a trade school, you can go to these under achiever schools (My name for it), where you are put into bare minimum requirement educational system.

Now just to point out the obvious, students that get diplomas from those high schools, tend to get lower paying jobs, because the diploma is obviously, a lower level of education.

And lastly the military, or you are on your own.

I think that's fair all the way around. The students that are doing their best, are not hampered and hindered by boat anchor students that will never learn anyway.

And at the same time, all the problem students are given more than enough chances to make something of themselves.

1. Almost every educator and almost every person I know involved in education thinks that we should more alternatives in terms of teaching trades from a traditional high school. You're preaching to the choir.

2. We basically have these (alternative schools).

The real problem is the culture of America. Everybody gets a trophy, every kid passes due to having a pulse and a warm body, everybody gets 8675309 second chances, nobody takes any personal responsibility, etc. Just this morning I had a student from last year email me to see if I can accept late work and change his grade. School ended in May and it's nearly August now...I wrote back an email explaining no. Mom emailed me separately begging for him to pass. smdh.

Right, and in a public school, the parents contact the administration, and they argue and protest, and if you make an issue out of it, then they have the student moved to a different teacher, and that teacher passes them, and they eventually get what they want.

I've heard stories like what you said, a dozen times. In fact, my own mother had this problem, because she had a problem child that refused to learn, the parent started arguing with her over it.

Again, what you just said is exactly why charter and private schools are better.

There is no arguing with the administration at a private or charter schools, because the administration doesn't care. They have a reputation to maintain of excellence, and if they start passing uneducated kids, that reputation will be wrecked, and then they'll lose money and go bankrupt.

Because their profits are exclusively based on educational reputation of the school.

Whereas a school district doesn't have to worry about making profits, only keeping government happy, which means not pissing off voters.

As long as mommy is happy enough to not vote badly in the election, the quality of education doesn't matter.

You should read Thomas Sowells book, "A personal Odyssey". He talks about running a special inner city education program, and everything was perfectly fine until one student decided they simply wouldn't do the work. He kicked the student out. The parents got involved, the administration got involved, and finally it was handed down that he was required to keep the student in class.

Then unsurprising to us on the right-wing, when all the other students realized they could get away with not working very hard, and there was nothing the teacher could do to remove them, the quality of educational work throughout the class fell dramatically, and Thomas Sowell turned in his notice that he would not continue teaching there.

Would that have happened at a private or charter school? No. It would not.

Hey bonehead! Charter schools ARE public schools!

Then how are they able to kick out problem students, when public schools apparently can not?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

So are kids who don't pass entrance exams destined for a life making a crap wage of 25 or even 30 dollars an hour for life? That's telling them the dream is gone. Can they take the exam more than once? Will students be told what concepts, not questions, but what concepts are on the test so they can prepare? What are the other options for those who fail the entrance exam?

Well yes and no.

First, you are implying as if somehow it is different now.

It is not different now. The only difference is, I would be making the high schools more effective, and restore value to a high school diploma.

Right now, kids get through high school, have a diploma, and are still not qualified for anything but crappy low wage, garbage jobs.

The reason why, is because they were sent through public schools, without being educated.

Most high schools today are turning out diplomas that are worth less than toilet paper. And I know you think I'm exaggerating, but I have had to deal with people who had high school educations, and couldn't work a calculator effectively. And I mean a calculator. I'm not making this up.

So what I am proposing, isn't changing anything for the students who already will not learn. Those students, that would not be able to get into high school, are students that already come out of school unable to get a decent job.

Nothing would be different, except I would be restoring the value of a diploma.

To kind of validate my claim, when I was with a company that ran a warehouse, they were requiring that new employees, take a basic reading and math test. By basic, I mean 5 times 8. And word math problems, like "If you have six pallets with 46 units each, and the manager says ship 5 of them, how many did you ship?"

Why did they do this? Because people were showing up with high school diplomas, and were unable to do basic math, or understand simple directions.

So with that in mind, all I'm doing is preventing the absolute waste of millions of dollars on students that are not going to learn anyway.
And I'm allowing more students to get a quality education. Because problem students do not magically become good students, when they are around good students. Instead good student turn into problem students, when they are around problem students.

Again, this is why Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, most of the world operates this way. Kids that don't make the grades, are removed.

So what can we do with those kids? Well first off, there will be far fewer of them to begin with.

When kids learn they can't go to high school with their friends, unless they pass the test, they tend to study for the test.

But obviously there will be some that will not keep up no matter what. What do we do with them?

Well there were three basic options.
1. Have trade schools that teach pipe fitting, welding, electrician, carpentry, brick laying, construction, and so on.

2. Have special high schools specifically for under achievers. If I remember right, Finland has this. If you fail out, unable to get into any quality high school, and don't want to go to a trade school, you can go to these under achiever schools (My name for it), where you are put into bare minimum requirement educational system.

Now just to point out the obvious, students that get diplomas from those high schools, tend to get lower paying jobs, because the diploma is obviously, a lower level of education.

And lastly the military, or you are on your own.

I think that's fair all the way around. The students that are doing their best, are not hampered and hindered by boat anchor students that will never learn anyway.

And at the same time, all the problem students are given more than enough chances to make something of themselves.

1. Almost every educator and almost every person I know involved in education thinks that we should more alternatives in terms of teaching trades from a traditional high school. You're preaching to the choir.

2. We basically have these (alternative schools).

The real problem is the culture of America. Everybody gets a trophy, every kid passes due to having a pulse and a warm body, everybody gets 8675309 second chances, nobody takes any personal responsibility, etc. Just this morning I had a student from last year email me to see if I can accept late work and change his grade. School ended in May and it's nearly August now...I wrote back an email explaining no. Mom emailed me separately begging for him to pass. smdh.

Right, and in a public school, the parents contact the administration, and they argue and protest, and if you make an issue out of it, then they have the student moved to a different teacher, and that teacher passes them, and they eventually get what they want.

I've heard stories like what you said, a dozen times. In fact, my own mother had this problem, because she had a problem child that refused to learn, the parent started arguing with her over it.

Again, what you just said is exactly why charter and private schools are better.

There is no arguing with the administration at a private or charter schools, because the administration doesn't care. They have a reputation to maintain of excellence, and if they start passing uneducated kids, that reputation will be wrecked, and then they'll lose money and go bankrupt.

Because their profits are exclusively based on educational reputation of the school.

Whereas a school district doesn't have to worry about making profits, only keeping government happy, which means not pissing off voters.

As long as mommy is happy enough to not vote badly in the election, the quality of education doesn't matter.

You should read Thomas Sowells book, "A personal Odyssey". He talks about running a special inner city education program, and everything was perfectly fine until one student decided they simply wouldn't do the work. He kicked the student out. The parents got involved, the administration got involved, and finally it was handed down that he was required to keep the student in class.

Then unsurprising to us on the right-wing, when all the other students realized they could get away with not working very hard, and there was nothing the teacher could do to remove them, the quality of educational work throughout the class fell dramatically, and Thomas Sowell turned in his notice that he would not continue teaching there.

Would that have happened at a private or charter school? No. It would not.

Hey bonehead! Charter schools ARE public schools!

Then how are they able to kick out problem students, when public schools apparently can not?

Another misconception in your part? They just kick them out to general public schools.

 

[initforme]

Admiral is correct here. Our district cannot kick out any students. We must accept any that move into the district. We do occasionally get kids who have left charter schools. Most are just fine, some cause trouble. We keep them despite this.

 

[Andylusion]

So are kids who don't pass entrance exams destined for a life making a crap wage of 25 or even 30 dollars an hour for life? That's telling them the dream is gone. Can they take the exam more than once? Will students be told what concepts, not questions, but what concepts are on the test so they can prepare? What are the other options for those who fail the entrance exam?

Well yes and no.

First, you are implying as if somehow it is different now.

It is not different now. The only difference is, I would be making the high schools more effective, and restore value to a high school diploma.

Right now, kids get through high school, have a diploma, and are still not qualified for anything but crappy low wage, garbage jobs.

The reason why, is because they were sent through public schools, without being educated.

Most high schools today are turning out diplomas that are worth less than toilet paper. And I know you think I'm exaggerating, but I have had to deal with people who had high school educations, and couldn't work a calculator effectively. And I mean a calculator. I'm not making this up.

So what I am proposing, isn't changing anything for the students who already will not learn. Those students, that would not be able to get into high school, are students that already come out of school unable to get a decent job.

Nothing would be different, except I would be restoring the value of a diploma.

To kind of validate my claim, when I was with a company that ran a warehouse, they were requiring that new employees, take a basic reading and math test. By basic, I mean 5 times 8. And word math problems, like "If you have six pallets with 46 units each, and the manager says ship 5 of them, how many did you ship?"

Why did they do this? Because people were showing up with high school diplomas, and were unable to do basic math, or understand simple directions.

So with that in mind, all I'm doing is preventing the absolute waste of millions of dollars on students that are not going to learn anyway.
And I'm allowing more students to get a quality education. Because problem students do not magically become good students, when they are around good students. Instead good student turn into problem students, when they are around problem students.

Again, this is why Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, most of the world operates this way. Kids that don't make the grades, are removed.

So what can we do with those kids? Well first off, there will be far fewer of them to begin with.

When kids learn they can't go to high school with their friends, unless they pass the test, they tend to study for the test.

But obviously there will be some that will not keep up no matter what. What do we do with them?

Well there were three basic options.
1. Have trade schools that teach pipe fitting, welding, electrician, carpentry, brick laying, construction, and so on.

2. Have special high schools specifically for under achievers. If I remember right, Finland has this. If you fail out, unable to get into any quality high school, and don't want to go to a trade school, you can go to these under achiever schools (My name for it), where you are put into bare minimum requirement educational system.

Now just to point out the obvious, students that get diplomas from those high schools, tend to get lower paying jobs, because the diploma is obviously, a lower level of education.

And lastly the military, or you are on your own.

I think that's fair all the way around. The students that are doing their best, are not hampered and hindered by boat anchor students that will never learn anyway.

And at the same time, all the problem students are given more than enough chances to make something of themselves.

1. Almost every educator and almost every person I know involved in education thinks that we should more alternatives in terms of teaching trades from a traditional high school. You're preaching to the choir.

2. We basically have these (alternative schools).

The real problem is the culture of America. Everybody gets a trophy, every kid passes due to having a pulse and a warm body, everybody gets 8675309 second chances, nobody takes any personal responsibility, etc. Just this morning I had a student from last year email me to see if I can accept late work and change his grade. School ended in May and it's nearly August now...I wrote back an email explaining no. Mom emailed me separately begging for him to pass. smdh.

Right, and in a public school, the parents contact the administration, and they argue and protest, and if you make an issue out of it, then they have the student moved to a different teacher, and that teacher passes them, and they eventually get what they want.

I've heard stories like what you said, a dozen times. In fact, my own mother had this problem, because she had a problem child that refused to learn, the parent started arguing with her over it.

Again, what you just said is exactly why charter and private schools are better.

There is no arguing with the administration at a private or charter schools, because the administration doesn't care. They have a reputation to maintain of excellence, and if they start passing uneducated kids, that reputation will be wrecked, and then they'll lose money and go bankrupt.

Because their profits are exclusively based on educational reputation of the school.

Whereas a school district doesn't have to worry about making profits, only keeping government happy, which means not pissing off voters.

As long as mommy is happy enough to not vote badly in the election, the quality of education doesn't matter.

You should read Thomas Sowells book, "A personal Odyssey". He talks about running a special inner city education program, and everything was perfectly fine until one student decided they simply wouldn't do the work. He kicked the student out. The parents got involved, the administration got involved, and finally it was handed down that he was required to keep the student in class.

Then unsurprising to us on the right-wing, when all the other students realized they could get away with not working very hard, and there was nothing the teacher could do to remove them, the quality of educational work throughout the class fell dramatically, and Thomas Sowell turned in his notice that he would not continue teaching there.

Would that have happened at a private or charter school? No. It would not.

Hey bonehead! Charter schools ARE public schools!

Then how are they able to kick out problem students, when public schools apparently can not?

Another misconception in your part? They just kick them out to general public schools.

Now you are contradicting yourself. You just posted a problem student, that didn't do his work, and the parents complained until he was allowed to turn in late work.

That is a problem student.

But that said, I've seen other problem students too. I've seen stuff that was shocking to me.

So I worked at the homeless shelter down town. They had a group of students from the local high school come in to help.

This woman teacher, was very close to being molested by the 3 different male students. They were touching her, and grabbing her, in ways that I would have been terrified to do. Never a billion years, would have considered treating a teacher that way in school.

But not only did this teacher not slap these reprobates across the face with a backhand, but she appeared as though this was 'normal' to her. Which is why I did not do anything. I wanted to, but if this is 'normal' and acceptable in public schools, then I'll be just causing a problem.

But I promise you, if you saw what I did, happen to your wife, you would leave that man a greasy spot on the ground. And if my parents heard I acted that way toward any women, they would leave me a greasy spot on the ground. And rightly so.

But that is going on in public schools, and those kids are not expelled. Again, maybe your specific school you taught at, was not like that. Other people are having a different experience.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

So are kids who don't pass entrance exams destined for a life making a crap wage of 25 or even 30 dollars an hour for life? That's telling them the dream is gone. Can they take the exam more than once? Will students be told what concepts, not questions, but what concepts are on the test so they can prepare? What are the other options for those who fail the entrance exam?

Well yes and no.

First, you are implying as if somehow it is different now.

It is not different now. The only difference is, I would be making the high schools more effective, and restore value to a high school diploma.

Right now, kids get through high school, have a diploma, and are still not qualified for anything but crappy low wage, garbage jobs.

The reason why, is because they were sent through public schools, without being educated.

Most high schools today are turning out diplomas that are worth less than toilet paper. And I know you think I'm exaggerating, but I have had to deal with people who had high school educations, and couldn't work a calculator effectively. And I mean a calculator. I'm not making this up.

So what I am proposing, isn't changing anything for the students who already will not learn. Those students, that would not be able to get into high school, are students that already come out of school unable to get a decent job.

Nothing would be different, except I would be restoring the value of a diploma.

To kind of validate my claim, when I was with a company that ran a warehouse, they were requiring that new employees, take a basic reading and math test. By basic, I mean 5 times 8. And word math problems, like "If you have six pallets with 46 units each, and the manager says ship 5 of them, how many did you ship?"

Why did they do this? Because people were showing up with high school diplomas, and were unable to do basic math, or understand simple directions.

So with that in mind, all I'm doing is preventing the absolute waste of millions of dollars on students that are not going to learn anyway.
And I'm allowing more students to get a quality education. Because problem students do not magically become good students, when they are around good students. Instead good student turn into problem students, when they are around problem students.

Again, this is why Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, most of the world operates this way. Kids that don't make the grades, are removed.

So what can we do with those kids? Well first off, there will be far fewer of them to begin with.

When kids learn they can't go to high school with their friends, unless they pass the test, they tend to study for the test.

But obviously there will be some that will not keep up no matter what. What do we do with them?

Well there were three basic options.
1. Have trade schools that teach pipe fitting, welding, electrician, carpentry, brick laying, construction, and so on.

2. Have special high schools specifically for under achievers. If I remember right, Finland has this. If you fail out, unable to get into any quality high school, and don't want to go to a trade school, you can go to these under achiever schools (My name for it), where you are put into bare minimum requirement educational system.

Now just to point out the obvious, students that get diplomas from those high schools, tend to get lower paying jobs, because the diploma is obviously, a lower level of education.

And lastly the military, or you are on your own.

I think that's fair all the way around. The students that are doing their best, are not hampered and hindered by boat anchor students that will never learn anyway.

And at the same time, all the problem students are given more than enough chances to make something of themselves.

Listen, up! As to your third choice, you need to get a grip! I graduated near the top of my high school class and joined the Navy as a nuclear propulsion operator. It was so academically advanced, I received a 4-year scholarship to college. My first shore duty was as a Navy recruiter. I now work for the Army in recruiting, so I think I know a little bit about what it takes to join the military. You apparently do NOT!

What? What part did I get wrong? I didn't suggest that you take high school drop outs, and put them in charge of nuclear reactors.

Where did I say that?

But I think the very few kids that refuse to go to trade school, and are not qualified for high schools... I think they can drive a truck for the military supply chain.... don't you? I think they can do something for the military, don't you?

You made a rather absurd leap in logic in that post. Saying "join the military" doesn't mean "Build nuclear warheads for ICBMs".

There are many low-IQ jobs in the military, are there not?

Actually , no, there are not any low IQ jobs in the military. What even makes you think these academic failures can be successful in the military by passing the ASVAB test? Do you think we just assign the to their job based on what they think they can do? There is also a great deal of self-discipline that these failures often lack as the root cause of their problems.

Honestly I was excluding people with zero self-discipline. I said before, either join the military or you are on your own.

Well the people whose problem is zero self-discipline, I'm assuming they would just be on their own.

Because there is nothing anyone can do with such people. They are a waste of tax money in public schools, and they are not going to learn a trade skills... so... McDonald's.

You think forcing them into public schools, under the theory of "no child left behind" is going to make them successful, because you passed a person with a 5th grade reading level, and gave them a diploma?

I know you don't believe that. But that's what is happening.

The people I thought could join the military, are the ones who can't cut it, but are willing to work. The people who might not have academic skills, but nevertheless can drive a truck, build latrines, and carry supplies.

If I am wrong, then... McDonald's for them to. Again, no matter what they do, it's still better than shuffling them through public schools, at the cost of millions, to have them come out unable to work a calculator.

McDonald's will not hire anyone of age that does not have a high school diploma. Bet you didn't know that?

 

[Andylusion]

So are kids who don't pass entrance exams destined for a life making a crap wage of 25 or even 30 dollars an hour for life? That's telling them the dream is gone. Can they take the exam more than once? Will students be told what concepts, not questions, but what concepts are on the test so they can prepare? What are the other options for those who fail the entrance exam?

Well yes and no.

First, you are implying as if somehow it is different now.

It is not different now. The only difference is, I would be making the high schools more effective, and restore value to a high school diploma.

Right now, kids get through high school, have a diploma, and are still not qualified for anything but crappy low wage, garbage jobs.

The reason why, is because they were sent through public schools, without being educated.

Most high schools today are turning out diplomas that are worth less than toilet paper. And I know you think I'm exaggerating, but I have had to deal with people who had high school educations, and couldn't work a calculator effectively. And I mean a calculator. I'm not making this up.

So what I am proposing, isn't changing anything for the students who already will not learn. Those students, that would not be able to get into high school, are students that already come out of school unable to get a decent job.

Nothing would be different, except I would be restoring the value of a diploma.

To kind of validate my claim, when I was with a company that ran a warehouse, they were requiring that new employees, take a basic reading and math test. By basic, I mean 5 times 8. And word math problems, like "If you have six pallets with 46 units each, and the manager says ship 5 of them, how many did you ship?"

Why did they do this? Because people were showing up with high school diplomas, and were unable to do basic math, or understand simple directions.

So with that in mind, all I'm doing is preventing the absolute waste of millions of dollars on students that are not going to learn anyway.
And I'm allowing more students to get a quality education. Because problem students do not magically become good students, when they are around good students. Instead good student turn into problem students, when they are around problem students.

Again, this is why Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, most of the world operates this way. Kids that don't make the grades, are removed.

So what can we do with those kids? Well first off, there will be far fewer of them to begin with.

When kids learn they can't go to high school with their friends, unless they pass the test, they tend to study for the test.

But obviously there will be some that will not keep up no matter what. What do we do with them?

Well there were three basic options.
1. Have trade schools that teach pipe fitting, welding, electrician, carpentry, brick laying, construction, and so on.

2. Have special high schools specifically for under achievers. If I remember right, Finland has this. If you fail out, unable to get into any quality high school, and don't want to go to a trade school, you can go to these under achiever schools (My name for it), where you are put into bare minimum requirement educational system.

Now just to point out the obvious, students that get diplomas from those high schools, tend to get lower paying jobs, because the diploma is obviously, a lower level of education.

And lastly the military, or you are on your own.

I think that's fair all the way around. The students that are doing their best, are not hampered and hindered by boat anchor students that will never learn anyway.

And at the same time, all the problem students are given more than enough chances to make something of themselves.

Listen, up! As to your third choice, you need to get a grip! I graduated near the top of my high school class and joined the Navy as a nuclear propulsion operator. It was so academically advanced, I received a 4-year scholarship to college. My first shore duty was as a Navy recruiter. I now work for the Army in recruiting, so I think I know a little bit about what it takes to join the military. You apparently do NOT!

What? What part did I get wrong? I didn't suggest that you take high school drop outs, and put them in charge of nuclear reactors.

Where did I say that?

But I think the very few kids that refuse to go to trade school, and are not qualified for high schools... I think they can drive a truck for the military supply chain.... don't you? I think they can do something for the military, don't you?

You made a rather absurd leap in logic in that post. Saying "join the military" doesn't mean "Build nuclear warheads for ICBMs".

There are many low-IQ jobs in the military, are there not?

Actually , no, there are not any low IQ jobs in the military. What even makes you think these academic failures can be successful in the military by passing the ASVAB test? Do you think we just assign the to their job based on what they think they can do? There is also a great deal of self-discipline that these failures often lack as the root cause of their problems.

Honestly I was excluding people with zero self-discipline. I said before, either join the military or you are on your own.

Well the people whose problem is zero self-discipline, I'm assuming they would just be on their own.

Because there is nothing anyone can do with such people. They are a waste of tax money in public schools, and they are not going to learn a trade skills... so... McDonald's.

You think forcing them into public schools, under the theory of "no child left behind" is going to make them successful, because you passed a person with a 5th grade reading level, and gave them a diploma?

I know you don't believe that. But that's what is happening.

The people I thought could join the military, are the ones who can't cut it, but are willing to work. The people who might not have academic skills, but nevertheless can drive a truck, build latrines, and carry supplies.

If I am wrong, then... McDonald's for them to. Again, no matter what they do, it's still better than shuffling them through public schools, at the cost of millions, to have them come out unable to work a calculator.

McDonald's will not hire anyone of age that does not have a high school diploma. Bet you didn't know that?

I worked at McDonalds, when I was 15 years old, and certainly did not have a diploma.

Maybe they changed their policy since then, but my point wasn't specifically McDonalds. I meant a job with low skill requirements in general. Obviously not every single high school drop out, can work at McDonalds, but there are more than enough low-skill no-skill jobs.

Where are the illegals working, that have no high school diploma? They have to be working somewhere, or they wouldn't come here.

If those people can get a job that pays them money illegally, then obviously people who are here legally, and actually understand English, can get a job.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

So are kids who don't pass entrance exams destined for a life making a crap wage of 25 or even 30 dollars an hour for life? That's telling them the dream is gone. Can they take the exam more than once? Will students be told what concepts, not questions, but what concepts are on the test so they can prepare? What are the other options for those who fail the entrance exam?

Well yes and no.

First, you are implying as if somehow it is different now.

It is not different now. The only difference is, I would be making the high schools more effective, and restore value to a high school diploma.

Right now, kids get through high school, have a diploma, and are still not qualified for anything but crappy low wage, garbage jobs.

The reason why, is because they were sent through public schools, without being educated.

Most high schools today are turning out diplomas that are worth less than toilet paper. And I know you think I'm exaggerating, but I have had to deal with people who had high school educations, and couldn't work a calculator effectively. And I mean a calculator. I'm not making this up.

So what I am proposing, isn't changing anything for the students who already will not learn. Those students, that would not be able to get into high school, are students that already come out of school unable to get a decent job.

Nothing would be different, except I would be restoring the value of a diploma.

To kind of validate my claim, when I was with a company that ran a warehouse, they were requiring that new employees, take a basic reading and math test. By basic, I mean 5 times 8. And word math problems, like "If you have six pallets with 46 units each, and the manager says ship 5 of them, how many did you ship?"

Why did they do this? Because people were showing up with high school diplomas, and were unable to do basic math, or understand simple directions.

So with that in mind, all I'm doing is preventing the absolute waste of millions of dollars on students that are not going to learn anyway.
And I'm allowing more students to get a quality education. Because problem students do not magically become good students, when they are around good students. Instead good student turn into problem students, when they are around problem students.

Again, this is why Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, most of the world operates this way. Kids that don't make the grades, are removed.

So what can we do with those kids? Well first off, there will be far fewer of them to begin with.

When kids learn they can't go to high school with their friends, unless they pass the test, they tend to study for the test.

But obviously there will be some that will not keep up no matter what. What do we do with them?

Well there were three basic options.
1. Have trade schools that teach pipe fitting, welding, electrician, carpentry, brick laying, construction, and so on.

2. Have special high schools specifically for under achievers. If I remember right, Finland has this. If you fail out, unable to get into any quality high school, and don't want to go to a trade school, you can go to these under achiever schools (My name for it), where you are put into bare minimum requirement educational system.

Now just to point out the obvious, students that get diplomas from those high schools, tend to get lower paying jobs, because the diploma is obviously, a lower level of education.

And lastly the military, or you are on your own.

I think that's fair all the way around. The students that are doing their best, are not hampered and hindered by boat anchor students that will never learn anyway.

And at the same time, all the problem students are given more than enough chances to make something of themselves.

Listen, up! As to your third choice, you need to get a grip! I graduated near the top of my high school class and joined the Navy as a nuclear propulsion operator. It was so academically advanced, I received a 4-year scholarship to college. My first shore duty was as a Navy recruiter. I now work for the Army in recruiting, so I think I know a little bit about what it takes to join the military. You apparently do NOT!

What? What part did I get wrong? I didn't suggest that you take high school drop outs, and put them in charge of nuclear reactors.

Where did I say that?

But I think the very few kids that refuse to go to trade school, and are not qualified for high schools... I think they can drive a truck for the military supply chain.... don't you? I think they can do something for the military, don't you?

You made a rather absurd leap in logic in that post. Saying "join the military" doesn't mean "Build nuclear warheads for ICBMs".

There are many low-IQ jobs in the military, are there not?

Actually , no, there are not any low IQ jobs in the military. What even makes you think these academic failures can be successful in the military by passing the ASVAB test? Do you think we just assign the to their job based on what they think they can do? There is also a great deal of self-discipline that these failures often lack as the root cause of their problems.

Honestly I was excluding people with zero self-discipline. I said before, either join the military or you are on your own.

Well the people whose problem is zero self-discipline, I'm assuming they would just be on their own.

Because there is nothing anyone can do with such people. They are a waste of tax money in public schools, and they are not going to learn a trade skills... so... McDonald's.

You think forcing them into public schools, under the theory of "no child left behind" is going to make them successful, because you passed a person with a 5th grade reading level, and gave them a diploma?

I know you don't believe that. But that's what is happening.

The people I thought could join the military, are the ones who can't cut it, but are willing to work. The people who might not have academic skills, but nevertheless can drive a truck, build latrines, and carry supplies.

If I am wrong, then... McDonald's for them to. Again, no matter what they do, it's still better than shuffling them through public schools, at the cost of millions, to have them come out unable to work a calculator.

McDonald's will not hire anyone of age that does not have a high school diploma. Bet you didn't know that?

I worked at McDonalds, when I was 15 years old, and certainly did not have a diploma.

Maybe they changed their policy since then, but my point wasn't specifically McDonalds. I meant a job with low skill requirements in general. Obviously not every single high school drop out, can work at McDonalds, but there are more than enough low-skill no-skill jobs.

Where are the illegals working, that have no high school diploma? They have to be working somewhere, or they wouldn't come here.

If those people can get a job that pays them money illegally, then obviously people who are here legally, and actually understand English, can get a job.

I surmised you couldn't read the words "of age".

Admitting you lost by deflecting to illegals?