Collective wealth leads to collective well-being

[beagle9]

What's wrong with the merit system that gauges a person's character before just handing the person money in which the person would use wrongfully or in evil ways ??

Who gets to decide who is evil and who is good? Animal loving vegans who are obsessed with running the trains on time?

If you can't define what evil and good is (or) decern between the two, then you need help my friend. People aren't dumb, but then again by today's examples I'm probably big time wrong on that one. LOL

Actually, when people act collectively, they can be quite stupid.

There are people who believe you can be evil if your skin is a different color, or if you are a different religion, or if you smoke, or drink, or eat meat. Some people think you're evil based on how you love another adult.

When those people are in charge, how will they decide who is, and isn't, worthy of receiving their share of the government's 'gifts'?

It is why the government doesn't determine worthyness of an individual, but rather it only judges the actions of the individual in which adds to the overall good in society, and doesn't add to the overall bad in society. Again people know the difference, and this game of saying "well it all depends on what the definition of is IS", ain't gonna fly.

 

[Pogo]

Some leftwing uber morons will forever repeat ..."Public utilities is socialism "

Simpleton rubes ..the lot of em

Not you op I know what you're saying

Now that you mention it, yup, they're synonyms. Whattaya think the word "public" means?
Public utilities, public library, public park, public trust, public service, public broadcasting, public transportation.......

 

[MACAULAY]

"collective well-being"

"....and if we are all contributing, if we are all putting our money into the effort, if we are all sacrificing a greater percentage of our personal gain for the greater collective good..."

_______

I thanked the O. P. for her post---because it was an honest effort to state her case....something clearly missing for the more seasoned Socialists/Bolsheviks on this board....who resort solely to elementary school tactics.

But, consider the above quotes from the O.P.

Every Socialist experiment, every Utopian society, every attempt to make people absolutely "EQUAL" all through history, going back at least to ancient Greece---has failed---because of Human Nature, which does not change, or at least has not changed during recorded history.

Here is what Socialism has going for it---Every new generation, if they are not well educated, thinks they have come up with it. They thought so in ancient Greece, in ancient Rome, in old England...they even had Socialists Utopias in America as far back as the early 1800's. They always failed because of Human Nature, because there is a natural INequality of ability and more important---an INequality of Motivation.

There are able and motivated people with IQ's of 130 who become doctors after years of study, and there are able and motivated welders with IQ's of 90 who become the best at their trade and careful with their money....and if given the FREEDOM to fulfill their destiny, each will ALWAYS be more successful than the Porch Sitters who sit around and wait on their Free Shit.

And what always happens?

1) The more the Free Shit that is passed out, the more the Motivated lose faith under the burden (cause someone always ultimately pay for the Free Shit)....and the more the Motivativated become Porch Sitters---until the system goes broke. (The problem with Socialism is than eventually you run out of other people's money--Margaret Thatcher.)

2) And, the Motivated, if left alone to fulfill their destiny, as they age and are successful---and this is Human Nature too---the more they want to pass along their earnings to their CHILDREN---to make their way easier than they had it---rather pass it along to the COLLECTIVE STATE.

Societies have been dealing with these issues for as long as there have been Societies.


Too many rich people and too many poor people, such as in revolutionary France in the 1790's and in Russia in the 1914 brings revolution.

The answer is a prosperous educated middle class---Opportunity and the Freedom to do well for yourself--IF YOU TRY.

America is the most successful experiment in the formation of Societies so far undertaken by Humankind. And the Middle Class is doing well.

But, we have a whole Generation which is uneducated about the ultimate evils of Socialism. The OP has been good enough to give us a good faith example.

Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg et al are complete assholes who have way way too much money. And their children will be even worse assholes. But Bezos and Zuckerberg don't have fortunes because they have taken them from the poor. They have them because they have created many many good jobs and much prosperity for the middle class.

Thanks to the O.P. for Good Faith. But, you are obviously young. Quit whining because your daddy isn't rich; figure out how to take care of yourself---this country gives you that chance better than any in history---that is how it became the greatest ever.

 

[flacaltenn]

This is my first attempt at creating a thread and I wasn't sure if this belongs in Politics or not but since the topic hits on several political issues of today I think it's probably fitting. To be transparent and to make this known I am not advocating for communism or even socialism with this opinion, it's just some personal thoughts.

What i'm talking about is using capitalism, free trade, free markets and our collective wealth as a nation to create collective well-being by investing in our society. That investment (taxes) would yield benefits like "free" medical care, dental care, education, maternity/paternity leaves, pre-k, among other benefits and programs provided for all citizens while also reducing the uncertainty millions of American feel everyday around these topics, the risk that millions of Americans take everyday for these topics, the lack of mobility and the the anxiety and stress that millions of Americans are under because of these issues. Reduced stress, reduced fear, reduced individual risk, reduced inequity in turn yields increased happiness, increased hope, increased societal investment, and increased collective well-being. There is a lot of detail that would go into taxation and what constitutes as "free" but that's something i'm open to discussing as this evolves.

People will often view higher taxes as a burden, and will also view higher taxes that would go towards increased government provided programs as socialist, however, if all citizens and companies truly contribute towards these programs and social programs by using the wealth we all create then it should be viewed as an investment, not a burden in my opinion. You are investing in the collective well-being of all people, including yourself, and if we are all contributing, if we are all putting our money into the effort, if we are all sacrificing a greater percentage of our personal gain for the greater collective good then what you end up with is a shared system that in essence purchases quality of life. No system is perfect, but closing the gap, creating a society that views success as something to share and not hoard, and putting the good of the many above the individual is in my opinion something to work towards.

At the bottom of every discussion/argument about Socialism/Collective versus Freedom/Free Markets is the main difference between you and me... You believe in ASSURING a "zero risk" life for everyone at the expense of others. You said exactly that in your Opening Post.

Nothing is "free".. And YOUR freedom/liberties are as much damaged by taking away your economic choices as they are by restricting your Civil Liberties.. You believe that HUGE govt has the wisdom, compassion, dedication to do even MORE than they've already failed at...

"Democratic Socialism" is what it ALWAYS starts out as.. In Zimbabwe, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Cuba and all the other "progressive revolutions"... What happens when the economy crashes, we LOSE our lead in innovation, research and products -- and the people start to "collectively slide" to the bottom of standards of world living?

These "do-gooders" need to take more choices and powers from you.. Maybe start to control speech, round up dissidents. AND SOON -- your choices and freedom are no more...

You want everyone else to "lift up" a person who maybe break-danced or tokked their way thru HS and quit at the 11th grade to a RISK FREE life. OR worse, depend on monstrous, inept, and slow-moving govt to make this happen.. Or even a college grad that chose Music History as a major rather than a profession that is MORE VALUED by society with concomitant increased financial security as society rewards them for what they can contribute, not what "bureaucrats" can do for them..

Most of the time, the folks who BELIEVE this also have a bloated view of what government is capable of. A govt that has MISMANAGED EVERY "UNIVERSAL" program, should NEVER be trusted with MORE "universal" programs.. A government that could not produce a "Marketplace Health Insurance" website for less than a $Bill and MONTHS late IS NOT your "technology benchmark" for success..

I've got some experience with the ACA Obamacare program.. It is the MOST INTRUSIVE and LEAST transparent way of CHOOSING your healthcare.. In fact, there are FEW choices that even make sense. And the plans get WORSE EVERY YEAR... And let's not make that about "political stunts" and party wars.. The FACT IS --- Americans cannot count on their govt to even FUNCTION anymore...

AND YOU WANT MORE OF THIS???? Are you CRAZY????

 

[flacaltenn]

This is my first attempt at creating a thread and I wasn't sure if this belongs in Politics or not but since the topic hits on several political issues of today I think it's probably fitting. To be transparent and to make this known I am not advocating for communism or even socialism with this opinion, it's just some personal thoughts.

What i'm talking about is using capitalism, free trade, free markets and our collective wealth as a nation to create collective well-being by investing in our society. That investment (taxes) would yield benefits like "free" medical care, dental care, education, maternity/paternity leaves, pre-k, among other benefits and programs provided for all citizens while also reducing the uncertainty millions of American feel everyday around these topics, the risk that millions of Americans take everyday for these topics, the lack of mobility and the the anxiety and stress that millions of Americans are under because of these issues. Reduced stress, reduced fear, reduced individual risk, reduced inequity in turn yields increased happiness, increased hope, increased societal investment, and increased collective well-being. There is a lot of detail that would go into taxation and what constitutes as "free" but that's something i'm open to discussing as this evolves.

People will often view higher taxes as a burden, and will also view higher taxes that would go towards increased government provided programs as socialist, however, if all citizens and companies truly contribute towards these programs and social programs by using the wealth we all create then it should be viewed as an investment, not a burden in my opinion. You are investing in the collective well-being of all people, including yourself, and if we are all contributing, if we are all putting our money into the effort, if we are all sacrificing a greater percentage of our personal gain for the greater collective good then what you end up with is a shared system that in essence purchases quality of life. No system is perfect, but closing the gap, creating a society that views success as something to share and not hoard, and putting the good of the many above the individual is in my opinion something to work towards.

That investment (taxes) would yield benefits like "free" medical care, dental care, education, maternity/paternity leaves, pre-k, among other benefits and programs provided for all citizens while also reducing the uncertainty millions of American feel everyday around these topics, the risk that millions of Americans take everyday for these topics, the lack of mobility and the the anxiety and stress that millions of Americans are under because of these issues.

Awesome!

How much tax and on what?

How much ya GOT??? LOL... It's not enough...

 

[beagle9]

Some leftwing uber morons will forever repeat ..."Public utilities is socialism "

Simpleton rubes ..the lot of em

Not you op I know what you're saying

Now that you mention it, yup, they're synonyms. Whattaya think the word "public" means?
Public utilities, public library, public park, public trust, public service, public broadcasting, public transportation.......

All things public by agreement of society, but not to override or crush our most creative individually driven, and independently driven capitalist system in which is our way of advancing in society or as a nation beyond our wildest imagination.

The government sector has no incentive to push anything, other than to leech off our creativeness and production as so to balance and provide for those that would otherwise fall through the cracks. Then this provision is highly abused by our government, therefore creating tragic dependency that allows a leftist run government to exploit all to well for power.

 

[fncceo]

Whattaya think the word "public" means?

Something dirty, dangerous, and to be avoided at all costs ... like a public toilet.

 

[flacaltenn]

This is my first attempt at creating a thread and I wasn't sure if this belongs in Politics or not but since the topic hits on several political issues of today I think it's probably fitting. To be transparent and to make this known I am not advocating for communism or even socialism with this opinion, it's just some personal thoughts.

What i'm talking about is using capitalism, free trade, free markets and our collective wealth as a nation to create collective well-being by investing in our society. That investment (taxes) would yield benefits like "free" medical care, dental care, education, maternity/paternity leaves, pre-k, among other benefits and programs provided for all citizens while also reducing the uncertainty millions of American feel everyday around these topics, the risk that millions of Americans take everyday for these topics, the lack of mobility and the the anxiety and stress that millions of Americans are under because of these issues. Reduced stress, reduced fear, reduced individual risk, reduced inequity in turn yields increased happiness, increased hope, increased societal investment, and increased collective well-being. There is a lot of detail that would go into taxation and what constitutes as "free" but that's something i'm open to discussing as this evolves.

People will often view higher taxes as a burden, and will also view higher taxes that would go towards increased government provided programs as socialist, however, if all citizens and companies truly contribute towards these programs and social programs by using the wealth we all create then it should be viewed as an investment, not a burden in my opinion. You are investing in the collective well-being of all people, including yourself, and if we are all contributing, if we are all putting our money into the effort, if we are all sacrificing a greater percentage of our personal gain for the greater collective good then what you end up with is a shared system that in essence purchases quality of life. No system is perfect, but closing the gap, creating a society that views success as something to share and not hoard, and putting the good of the many above the individual is in my opinion something to work towards.

It's a fine start for discussion

Cue naysayers -- there ought to be clowns. Don't bother.... they're here.

Your framework reminds me of this chestnut:

>> Joe gets up at 6:00 am to prepare his morning coffee. He fills his pot full of good, clean drinking water because some liberal fought for minimum water quality standards. He takes his daily medication with his first swallow of coffee. His medications are safe to take because some liberal fought to insure their safety and efficacy. All but $10.00 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance. Now Joe gets it too.
He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs this day. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry. Joe takes his morning shower, reaching for his shampoo; his bottle is properly labeled with every ingredient and the amount of its contents because some liberal fought for his right to know the amount and identity of the substances he was putting on his body.

Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some tree hugging liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air. He walks to the subway station for his government subsidized ride to work; it saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees. You see, some liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor to society. Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe's employer upholds these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed hell get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some Liberal didn't think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

It's noon time, Joe needs to make a Bank Deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the depression. Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-market federal student loan because some stupid liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime.

Joe is home from work, and he plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive to his dad's; his car is among the safest in the world be cause some wacko liberal (Ralph Nader!) fought for car safety standards. He arrives at his boyhood home. He was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmer's Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans. The house didn't have electricity until some big government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification. He is happy to see his dad who is now retired. His dad lives on Social Security and his union pension because some liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to.

After his visit with dad he gets back in his car for the ride home. He turns on a radio talk show. The host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn't tell Joe that his beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit that Joe enjoys throughout his day. Joe agrees. "We don't need those big government liberals ruining our lives", he says. "After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have". <<​

You sure you don't write those sad anecdotal stories for NPR?? It's a pretty good attempt... You know the ones where they address inequality or immigration by telling the story of ONE PERSON -- from THEIR perspective --- and LEAVE OUT 92% of the context of how that person ended up in that state?

Ain't got time for fiction.. The country needs to have this out and finish it.. And get back to somehow having a SMALLER more FOCUSED govt --- WORK FOR US... Rather than US working for THEM...

That's this argument in a nutshell.. It's a naive view of what the Fed govt CAN or SHOULD be trusted to accomplish -- when they accomplish next to nothing today...

 

[Deplorable Yankee]

What's wrong with the merit system that gauges a person's character before just handing the person money in which the person would use wrongfully or in evil ways ??

Who gets to decide who is evil and who is good? Animal loving vegans who are obsessed with running the trains on time?

If you can't define what evil and good is (or) decern between the two, then you need help my friend. People aren't dumb, but then again by today's examples I'm probably big time wrong on that one. LOL

Actually, when people act collectively, they can be quite stupid.

There are people who believe you can be evil if your skin is a different color, or if you are a different religion, or if you smoke, or drink, or eat meat. Some people think you're evil based on how you love another adult.

When those people are in charge, how will they decide who is, and isn't, worthy of receiving their share of the government's 'gifts'?

What's wrong with the merit system that gauges a person's character before just handing the person money in which the person would use wrongfully or in evil ways ??

Who gets to decide who is evil and who is good? Animal loving vegans who are obsessed with running the trains on time?

If you can't define what evil and good is (or) decern between the two, then you need help my friend. People aren't dumb, but then again by today's examples I'm probably big time wrong on that one. LOL

Actually, when people act collectively, they can be quite stupid.

There are people who believe you can be evil if your skin is a different color, or if you are a different religion, or if you smoke, or drink, or eat meat. Some people think you're evil based on how you love another adult.

When those people are in charge, how will they decide who is, and isn't, worthy of receiving their share of the government's 'gifts'?

Some leftwing uber morons will forever repeat ..."Public utilities is socialism "

Simpleton rubes ..the lot of em

Not you op I know what you're saying

Now that you mention it, yup, they're synonyms. Whattaya think the word "public" means?
Public utilities, public library, public park, public trust, public service, public broadcasting, public transportation.......

It doesn't mean socialism

Stop claiming you're educated or even smart

 

[Pogo]

Some leftwing uber morons will forever repeat ..."Public utilities is socialism "

Simpleton rubes ..the lot of em

Not you op I know what you're saying

Now that you mention it, yup, they're synonyms. Whattaya think the word "public" means?
Public utilities, public library, public park, public trust, public service, public broadcasting, public transportation.......

All things public by agreement of society, but not to override or crush our most creative individually driven, and independently driven capitalist system in which is our way of advancing in society or as a nation beyond our wildest imagination.

The government sector has no incentive to push anything, other than to leech off our creativeness and production as so to balance and provide for those that would otherwise fall through the cracks. Then this provision is highly abused by our government, therefore creating tragic dependency that allows a leftist run government to exploit all to well for power.

The government handles what private enterprise cannot. For instance federal highways or the FAA. When the telegraph was invented it was (and had to be) government that made its infrastructure possible, which begat the power grid, which begat the internet. And of course the military and the various other public services mentioned and not mentioned. It's why western countries worldwide had Thalidomide babies and we didn't -- because our government did its job and theirs didn't.

Whelp -- that's Socialism. Defuse the word because you're living in it.

 

[Pogo]

What's wrong with the merit system that gauges a person's character before just handing the person money in which the person would use wrongfully or in evil ways ??

Who gets to decide who is evil and who is good? Animal loving vegans who are obsessed with running the trains on time?

If you can't define what evil and good is (or) decern between the two, then you need help my friend. People aren't dumb, but then again by today's examples I'm probably big time wrong on that one. LOL

Actually, when people act collectively, they can be quite stupid.

There are people who believe you can be evil if your skin is a different color, or if you are a different religion, or if you smoke, or drink, or eat meat. Some people think you're evil based on how you love another adult.

When those people are in charge, how will they decide who is, and isn't, worthy of receiving their share of the government's 'gifts'?

What's wrong with the merit system that gauges a person's character before just handing the person money in which the person would use wrongfully or in evil ways ??

Who gets to decide who is evil and who is good? Animal loving vegans who are obsessed with running the trains on time?

If you can't define what evil and good is (or) decern between the two, then you need help my friend. People aren't dumb, but then again by today's examples I'm probably big time wrong on that one. LOL

Actually, when people act collectively, they can be quite stupid.

There are people who believe you can be evil if your skin is a different color, or if you are a different religion, or if you smoke, or drink, or eat meat. Some people think you're evil based on how you love another adult.

When those people are in charge, how will they decide who is, and isn't, worthy of receiving their share of the government's 'gifts'?

View attachment 311607

Some leftwing uber morons will forever repeat ..."Public utilities is socialism "

Simpleton rubes ..the lot of em

Not you op I know what you're saying

Now that you mention it, yup, they're synonyms. Whattaya think the word "public" means?
Public utilities, public library, public park, public trust, public service, public broadcasting, public transportation.......

It doesn't mean socialism

Stop claiming you're educated or even smart

Apparently it does mean I'm the only one defining it, while others post pictures of paper towels and Hitler and some kind of gook spraying out of some mouth.

 

[flacaltenn]

This is my first attempt at creating a thread and I wasn't sure if this belongs in Politics or not but since the topic hits on several political issues of today I think it's probably fitting. To be transparent and to make this known I am not advocating for communism or even socialism with this opinion, it's just some personal thoughts.

What i'm talking about is using capitalism, free trade, free markets and our collective wealth as a nation to create collective well-being by investing in our society. That investment (taxes) would yield benefits like "free" medical care, dental care, education, maternity/paternity leaves, pre-k, among other benefits and programs provided for all citizens while also reducing the uncertainty millions of American feel everyday around these topics, the risk that millions of Americans take everyday for these topics, the lack of mobility and the the anxiety and stress that millions of Americans are under because of these issues. Reduced stress, reduced fear, reduced individual risk, reduced inequity in turn yields increased happiness, increased hope, increased societal investment, and increased collective well-being. There is a lot of detail that would go into taxation and what constitutes as "free" but that's something i'm open to discussing as this evolves.

People will often view higher taxes as a burden, and will also view higher taxes that would go towards increased government provided programs as socialist, however, if all citizens and companies truly contribute towards these programs and social programs by using the wealth we all create then it should be viewed as an investment, not a burden in my opinion. You are investing in the collective well-being of all people, including yourself, and if we are all contributing, if we are all putting our money into the effort, if we are all sacrificing a greater percentage of our personal gain for the greater collective good then what you end up with is a shared system that in essence purchases quality of life. No system is perfect, but closing the gap, creating a society that views success as something to share and not hoard, and putting the good of the many above the individual is in my opinion something to work towards.

That investment (taxes) would yield benefits like "free" medical care, dental care, education, maternity/paternity leaves, pre-k, among other benefits and programs provided for all citizens while also reducing the uncertainty millions of American feel everyday around these topics, the risk that millions of Americans take everyday for these topics, the lack of mobility and the the anxiety and stress that millions of Americans are under because of these issues.

Awesome!

How much tax and on what?

To be fair i'm not a tax expert and so the exact number would need to be analyzed, but I think a good starting point would be at least 25% personal income tax regardless of income. After that depending on your income the % would be higher for each tax bracket. It wouldn't go over 50% for any bracket but the top bracket would expect to have their income tax rate be around that mark. Ultimately the gap between the lowest income tax bracket and the highest income bracket would not be nearly as significant as it is now. In addition, higher taxes on all any and all stock market transactions, capital gain, dividends, and so on, a corporate tax rate increase to at least a flat rate of 25% as well with earnings dictating increased rates similar to personal income tax rates. The largest sectors such as energy, primarily oil and natural gas companies would have up to 50% of earnings reinvested into social programs as well as power plants and power companies with a minimum of 25%. I'd say that an increased sales tax/value added tax would be a reasonable addition as well.

The basic premise is that everybody of all brackets and companies as well pay into the system as equally as possible based on income, revenues, and so on. When the CEO and the front line worker contribute towards the same healthcare, the same education, the same social safety nets, then in my opinion there is a greater shared interest in seeing it run well and run equally.

So the govt feels that individuals are SO helpless and SO incompetent that they must confiscate at least 25% of income from EVERY working American and make ALL their financial decisions for them?

I do agree, TOO many people now are EXCUSED from contributing to Federal/State taxation tho.. About 1/2 of IRS filers PAY ZERO income tax or get a negative EITC check back. And you cannot all be in same boat when SOME folks never take an oar....

 

[Deplorable Yankee]

Some leftwing uber morons will forever repeat ..."Public utilities is socialism "

Simpleton rubes ..the lot of em

Not you op I know what you're saying

Now that you mention it, yup, they're synonyms. Whattaya think the word "public" means?
Public utilities, public library, public park, public trust, public service, public broadcasting, public transportation.......

All things public by agreement of society, but not to override or crush our most creative individually driven, and independently driven capitalist system in which is our way of advancing in society or as a nation beyond our wildest imagination.

The government sector has no incentive to push anything, other than to leech off our creativeness and production as so to balance and provide for those that would otherwise fall through the cracks. Then this provision is highly abused by our government, therefore creating tragic dependency that allows a leftist run government to exploit all to well for power.

The government handles what private enterprise cannot. For instance federal highways or the FAA. When the telegraph was invented it was (and had to be) government that made its infrastructure possible, which begat the power grid, which begat the internet. And of course the military and the various other public services mentioned and not mentioned. It's why western countries worldwide had Thalidomide babies and we didn't -- because our government did its job and theirs didn't.

Whelp -- that's Socialism. Defuse the word because you're living in it.

Still wrong and dumb as a box of rocks
And your so boring not even worth the effort zzzzz

 

[Pogo]

This is my first attempt at creating a thread and I wasn't sure if this belongs in Politics or not but since the topic hits on several political issues of today I think it's probably fitting. To be transparent and to make this known I am not advocating for communism or even socialism with this opinion, it's just some personal thoughts.

What i'm talking about is using capitalism, free trade, free markets and our collective wealth as a nation to create collective well-being by investing in our society. That investment (taxes) would yield benefits like "free" medical care, dental care, education, maternity/paternity leaves, pre-k, among other benefits and programs provided for all citizens while also reducing the uncertainty millions of American feel everyday around these topics, the risk that millions of Americans take everyday for these topics, the lack of mobility and the the anxiety and stress that millions of Americans are under because of these issues. Reduced stress, reduced fear, reduced individual risk, reduced inequity in turn yields increased happiness, increased hope, increased societal investment, and increased collective well-being. There is a lot of detail that would go into taxation and what constitutes as "free" but that's something i'm open to discussing as this evolves.

People will often view higher taxes as a burden, and will also view higher taxes that would go towards increased government provided programs as socialist, however, if all citizens and companies truly contribute towards these programs and social programs by using the wealth we all create then it should be viewed as an investment, not a burden in my opinion. You are investing in the collective well-being of all people, including yourself, and if we are all contributing, if we are all putting our money into the effort, if we are all sacrificing a greater percentage of our personal gain for the greater collective good then what you end up with is a shared system that in essence purchases quality of life. No system is perfect, but closing the gap, creating a society that views success as something to share and not hoard, and putting the good of the many above the individual is in my opinion something to work towards.

It's a fine start for discussion

Cue naysayers -- there ought to be clowns. Don't bother.... they're here.

Your framework reminds me of this chestnut:

>> Joe gets up at 6:00 am to prepare his morning coffee. He fills his pot full of good, clean drinking water because some liberal fought for minimum water quality standards. He takes his daily medication with his first swallow of coffee. His medications are safe to take because some liberal fought to insure their safety and efficacy. All but $10.00 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance. Now Joe gets it too.
He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs this day. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry. Joe takes his morning shower, reaching for his shampoo; his bottle is properly labeled with every ingredient and the amount of its contents because some liberal fought for his right to know the amount and identity of the substances he was putting on his body.

Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some tree hugging liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air. He walks to the subway station for his government subsidized ride to work; it saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees. You see, some liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor to society. Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe's employer upholds these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed hell get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some Liberal didn't think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

It's noon time, Joe needs to make a Bank Deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the depression. Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-market federal student loan because some stupid liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime.

Joe is home from work, and he plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive to his dad's; his car is among the safest in the world be cause some wacko liberal (Ralph Nader!) fought for car safety standards. He arrives at his boyhood home. He was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmer's Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans. The house didn't have electricity until some big government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification. He is happy to see his dad who is now retired. His dad lives on Social Security and his union pension because some liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to.

After his visit with dad he gets back in his car for the ride home. He turns on a radio talk show. The host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn't tell Joe that his beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit that Joe enjoys throughout his day. Joe agrees. "We don't need those big government liberals ruining our lives", he says. "After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have". <<​

You sure you don't write those sad anecdotal stories for NPR?? It's a pretty good attempt... You know the ones where they address inequality or immigration by telling the story of ONE PERSON -- from THEIR perspective --- and LEAVE OUT 92% of the context of how that person ended up in that state?

Ain't got time for fiction.. The country needs to have this out and finish it.. And get back to somehow having a SMALLER more FOCUSED govt --- WORK FOR US... Rather than US working for THEM...

That's this argument in a nutshell.. It's a naive view of what the Fed govt CAN or SHOULD be trusted to accomplish -- when they accomplish next to nothing today...

I didn't write that. I just said it was a quote. That's what >> << means.

 

[Pogo]

Some leftwing uber morons will forever repeat ..."Public utilities is socialism "

Simpleton rubes ..the lot of em

Not you op I know what you're saying

Now that you mention it, yup, they're synonyms. Whattaya think the word "public" means?
Public utilities, public library, public park, public trust, public service, public broadcasting, public transportation.......

All things public by agreement of society, but not to override or crush our most creative individually driven, and independently driven capitalist system in which is our way of advancing in society or as a nation beyond our wildest imagination.

The government sector has no incentive to push anything, other than to leech off our creativeness and production as so to balance and provide for those that would otherwise fall through the cracks. Then this provision is highly abused by our government, therefore creating tragic dependency that allows a leftist run government to exploit all to well for power.

The government handles what private enterprise cannot. For instance federal highways or the FAA. When the telegraph was invented it was (and had to be) government that made its infrastructure possible, which begat the power grid, which begat the internet. And of course the military and the various other public services mentioned and not mentioned. It's why western countries worldwide had Thalidomide babies and we didn't -- because our government did its job and theirs didn't.

Whelp -- that's Socialism. Defuse the word because you're living in it.

Still wrong and dumb as a box of rocks
And your so boring not even worth the effort zzzzz

And yet you have no counterargument, no counterpoint, no definitions, no nothing.

Run along now, adults are talking.

 

[Manonthestreet]

That investment (taxes) would yield benefits like "free" medical care, dental care, education, maternity/paternity leaves, pre-k, among other benefits and programs provided for all citizens while also reducing the uncertainty millions of American feel everyday around these topics, the risk that millions of Americans take everyday for these topics, the lack of mobility and the the anxiety and stress that millions of Americans are under because of these issues.

Awesome!

How much tax and on what?

To be fair i'm not a tax expert and so the exact number would need to be analyzed, but I think a good starting point would be at least 25% personal income tax regardless of income. After that depending on your income the % would be higher for each tax bracket. It wouldn't go over 50% for any bracket but the top bracket would expect to have their income tax rate be around that mark. Ultimately the gap between the lowest income tax bracket and the highest income bracket would not be nearly as significant as it is now. In addition, higher taxes on all any and all stock market transactions, capital gain, dividends, and so on, a corporate tax rate increase to at least a flat rate of 25% as well with earnings dictating increased rates similar to personal income tax rates. The largest sectors such as energy, primarily oil and natural gas companies would have up to 50% of earnings reinvested into social programs as well as power plants and power companies with a minimum of 25%. I'd say that an increased sales tax/value added tax would be a reasonable addition as well.

The basic premise is that everybody of all brackets and companies as well pay into the system as equally as possible based on income, revenues, and so on. When the CEO and the front line worker contribute towards the same healthcare, the same education, the same social safety nets, then in my opinion there is a greater shared interest in seeing it run well and run equally.

at least 25% personal income tax regardless of income.

In addition to current taxes?

Which taxes do you mean? What I am saying is a standard base rate of 25% personal income tax for everybody but then that goes up incrementally depending on your income and earnings.

Which taxes do you mean?

Income taxes.

View attachment 311604

What are the new rates for each bracket?

I don't have that amount of detail yet.

Bernie bot....,.,Everything is free....how much does that cost ….I have no idea......vote for me

 

[Manonthestreet]

 

[Pogo]

Every Socialist experiment, every Utopian society, every attempt to make people absolutely "EQUAL" all through history, going back at least to ancient Greece---has failed---because of Human Nature, which does not change, or at least has not changed during recorded history.

Here is what Socialism has going for it---Every new generation, if they are not well educated, thinks they have come up with it. They thought so in ancient Greece, in ancient Rome, in old England...they even had Socialists Utopias in America as far back as the early 1800's. They always failed because of Human Nature, because there is a natural INequality of ability and more important---an INequality of Motivation.

Care to name/specify some of these Utopian Societies and/or "Socialist Experiments"?

 

[flacaltenn]

This is my first attempt at creating a thread and I wasn't sure if this belongs in Politics or not but since the topic hits on several political issues of today I think it's probably fitting. To be transparent and to make this known I am not advocating for communism or even socialism with this opinion, it's just some personal thoughts.

What i'm talking about is using capitalism, free trade, free markets and our collective wealth as a nation to create collective well-being by investing in our society. That investment (taxes) would yield benefits like "free" medical care, dental care, education, maternity/paternity leaves, pre-k, among other benefits and programs provided for all citizens while also reducing the uncertainty millions of American feel everyday around these topics, the risk that millions of Americans take everyday for these topics, the lack of mobility and the the anxiety and stress that millions of Americans are under because of these issues. Reduced stress, reduced fear, reduced individual risk, reduced inequity in turn yields increased happiness, increased hope, increased societal investment, and increased collective well-being. There is a lot of detail that would go into taxation and what constitutes as "free" but that's something i'm open to discussing as this evolves.

People will often view higher taxes as a burden, and will also view higher taxes that would go towards increased government provided programs as socialist, however, if all citizens and companies truly contribute towards these programs and social programs by using the wealth we all create then it should be viewed as an investment, not a burden in my opinion. You are investing in the collective well-being of all people, including yourself, and if we are all contributing, if we are all putting our money into the effort, if we are all sacrificing a greater percentage of our personal gain for the greater collective good then what you end up with is a shared system that in essence purchases quality of life. No system is perfect, but closing the gap, creating a society that views success as something to share and not hoard, and putting the good of the many above the individual is in my opinion something to work towards.

It's a fine start for discussion

Cue naysayers -- there ought to be clowns. Don't bother.... they're here.

Your framework reminds me of this chestnut:

>> Joe gets up at 6:00 am to prepare his morning coffee. He fills his pot full of good, clean drinking water because some liberal fought for minimum water quality standards. He takes his daily medication with his first swallow of coffee. His medications are safe to take because some liberal fought to insure their safety and efficacy. All but $10.00 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance. Now Joe gets it too.
He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs this day. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry. Joe takes his morning shower, reaching for his shampoo; his bottle is properly labeled with every ingredient and the amount of its contents because some liberal fought for his right to know the amount and identity of the substances he was putting on his body.

Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some tree hugging liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air. He walks to the subway station for his government subsidized ride to work; it saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees. You see, some liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor to society. Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe's employer upholds these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed hell get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some Liberal didn't think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

It's noon time, Joe needs to make a Bank Deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the depression. Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-market federal student loan because some stupid liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime.

Joe is home from work, and he plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive to his dad's; his car is among the safest in the world be cause some wacko liberal (Ralph Nader!) fought for car safety standards. He arrives at his boyhood home. He was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmer's Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans. The house didn't have electricity until some big government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification. He is happy to see his dad who is now retired. His dad lives on Social Security and his union pension because some liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to.

After his visit with dad he gets back in his car for the ride home. He turns on a radio talk show. The host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn't tell Joe that his beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit that Joe enjoys throughout his day. Joe agrees. "We don't need those big government liberals ruining our lives", he says. "After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have". <<​

You sure you don't write those sad anecdotal stories for NPR?? It's a pretty good attempt... You know the ones where they address inequality or immigration by telling the story of ONE PERSON -- from THEIR perspective --- and LEAVE OUT 92% of the context of how that person ended up in that state?

Ain't got time for fiction.. The country needs to have this out and finish it.. And get back to somehow having a SMALLER more FOCUSED govt --- WORK FOR US... Rather than US working for THEM...

That's this argument in a nutshell.. It's a naive view of what the Fed govt CAN or SHOULD be trusted to accomplish -- when they accomplish next to nothing today...

I didn't write that. I just said it was a quote. That's what >> << means.

Too bad.. It's a good copy of the NPR narratives... But you liked it ENOUGH to try and anecdote yourself to death... LOL.....

 

[beagle9]

Some leftwing uber morons will forever repeat ..."Public utilities is socialism "

Simpleton rubes ..the lot of em

Not you op I know what you're saying

Now that you mention it, yup, they're synonyms. Whattaya think the word "public" means?
Public utilities, public library, public park, public trust, public service, public broadcasting, public transportation.......

All things public by agreement of society, but not to override or crush our most creative individually driven, and independently driven capitalist system in which is our way of advancing in society or as a nation beyond our wildest imagination.

The government sector has no incentive to push anything, other than to leech off our creativeness and production as so to balance and provide for those that would otherwise fall through the cracks. Then this provision is highly abused by our government, therefore creating tragic dependency that allows a leftist run government to exploit all to well for power.

The government handles what private enterprise cannot. For instance federal highways or the FAA. When the telegraph was invented it was (and had to be) government that made its infrastructure possible, which begat the power grid, which begat the internet. And of course the military and the various other public services mentioned and not mentioned. It's why western countries worldwide had Thalidomide babies and we didn't -- because our government did its job and theirs didn't.

Whelp -- that's Socialism. Defuse the word because you're living in it.

The government was at one time "we the people", and therefore it didn't do anything without our ok and vote upon, but the leftist took our government into a bad place over the years, and the people are attempting to take it back. MAGA