Collective wealth leads to collective well-being

[Grace Is Stoked]

That's a big part of what I have been saying since my first post. For any real change to happen in this country it would take a very big culture and mindset change.

No, you want to enhance or double down on what has been going on by securing the financial services needed for people to be any of the problems in which people decide to be in their lives. The merit system is a way to force people to do better, and to act accordingly if they want to secure their incomes, and build upon their financial wealth and security in life. Any other way breeds dependency, and that's just not the way to go

No i'm sorry but that's not what I am trying to do or advocate for. It's ok to reward hard work, i'm not saying otherwise, but what I am saying is that in America the concept of individualism drives our culture, and so in this case individual wealth secures your (or your immediate family's) security in life and that is the only concern of the individual. Anything that might reduce your potential wealth to help another American is often times looked down upon or even condemned outright while also labeling, insulting and so on shaming the idea and the person that could possibly be helped. I am not talking about taking your money from you and giving it literally to someone else. That would fail and that would potentially create dependency. When I am talking about investing into a system I mean just that, we all invest our tax dollars into a system that we all have access to and would benefit from.

You are worried about people who aren't worried about themselves, and we don't want to support that thinking. We want to make sure that people are forced to recognize their bad choices in life, because those choices won't have a support system that allows for such choices to somehow appear as if they are right when they are absolutely wrong in life. Lazyness is wrong, and it doesn't need a support system funded by the government to say that it's good. See how that works ?

There are millions of people who are not lazy that struggle daily. Add in potential medical costs or the unrealistic option of higher education and the stressors can be almost palpable for people. It's not right to assume just because someone isn't secure in their financial wealth or that they can't afford something that you can that they are lazy.

It isn't fair for you to assume that everyone is a victim that should be taken care of by the government at the taxpayers expense. The evaluation of human beings is a complicated one, and it should be left to those who have experience in this stuff for hundreds of years.

Do gooder hippies can't do it, and they cause more trouble than the law allows when they try.

I'm not really talking about the government taking care of people though at the taxpayer expense. The taxpayer would be the ones benefitting from these systems that they are paying into. Yes there will always be a small % of a population that is in poverty and will need assistance in some way, but what I am talking about in this thread is, for example, a healthcare system that all taxpayers of all brackets and incomes pay into and then utilize equally.

 

[beagle9]

No, you want to enhance or double down on what has been going on by securing the financial services needed for people to be any of the problems in which people decide to be in their lives. The merit system is a way to force people to do better, and to act accordingly if they want to secure their incomes, and build upon their financial wealth and security in life. Any other way breeds dependency, and that's just not the way to go

No i'm sorry but that's not what I am trying to do or advocate for. It's ok to reward hard work, i'm not saying otherwise, but what I am saying is that in America the concept of individualism drives our culture, and so in this case individual wealth secures your (or your immediate family's) security in life and that is the only concern of the individual. Anything that might reduce your potential wealth to help another American is often times looked down upon or even condemned outright while also labeling, insulting and so on shaming the idea and the person that could possibly be helped. I am not talking about taking your money from you and giving it literally to someone else. That would fail and that would potentially create dependency. When I am talking about investing into a system I mean just that, we all invest our tax dollars into a system that we all have access to and would benefit from.

You are worried about people who aren't worried about themselves, and we don't want to support that thinking. We want to make sure that people are forced to recognize their bad choices in life, because those choices won't have a support system that allows for such choices to somehow appear as if they are right when they are absolutely wrong in life. Lazyness is wrong, and it doesn't need a support system funded by the government to say that it's good. See how that works ?

There are millions of people who are not lazy that struggle daily. Add in potential medical costs or the unrealistic option of higher education and the stressors can be almost palpable for people. It's not right to assume just because someone isn't secure in their financial wealth or that they can't afford something that you can that they are lazy.

It isn't fair for you to assume that everyone is a victim that should be taken care of by the government at the taxpayers expense. The evaluation of human beings is a complicated one, and it should be left to those who have experience in this stuff for hundreds of years.

Do gooder hippies can't do it, and they cause more trouble than the law allows when they try.

I'm not really talking about the government taking care of people though at the taxpayer expense. The taxpayer would be the ones benefitting from these systems that they are paying into. Yes there will always be a small % of a population that is in poverty and will need assistance in some way, but what I am talking about in this thread is, for example, a healthcare system that all taxpayers of all brackets and incomes pay into and then utilize equally.

Well it's been tried and talked about for years and years now, but it's not working out to well. It's also highly complicated, but it really shouldn't be. The affordable Care act is a failure, because politics were heavily involved in the outcomes, but keep hope alive kid. Maybe someday you'll convince someone of what your trying to say. I'm a capitalist with some oversight regulations if things get stupid.

We have seen some great ideas thrown around by the parties, but no one is willing to work together, and that is killing it all.

Me, I have a health savings account, and it's getting packed slam full with money because I'm a healthy human being. Should have had this years ago, but at least companies are on the right track now in their approach to the problems. If over the years we didn't have all the corruption, and people saying to themselves "heck I ain't paying nothing, someone else will", then we wouldn't have gotten to where we have gotten to in this mess over the years. Insurance companies had enough of the fraudulent activity and claims, and it has worked to insulate itself from the bad guy's and gal's. Yes it hurt us, but hopefully the situation is being ironed out, and the good decent folks will be taken care of while the bad people suffer their demise without affecting the good citizens in a negative Domino affect type of way anymore.

 

[DOTR]

We're already there... The top 5% of wage earners pay about 65% of ALL income tax.. The bottom 50% of wage earners pay next to nothing.. How much MORE "progressive" can you get???

Who Pays Income Taxes?

The new data shows that the top 1 percent of earners (with incomes over $515,371) paid nearly 39 percent of all income taxes, up slightly from the previous tax year’s 37 percent share. The amount of taxes paid in this percentile is nearly twice as much their adjusted gross income (AGI) load.

The top 10 percent of earners bore responsibility for 70 percent of all income taxes paid – up slightly from 2016 – while half of all tax filers paid 97 percent of all income tax revenue. Indicating the degree of progressivity in the code, the bottom 50 percent of earners took home 11 percent of total nationwide income while owing 3 percent of all income taxes.

Now -- if you're saying your saying the MIDDLE class need to contribute more (and even at 25% most of them WOULD be) -- you're probably right.. Because there's 30 times MORE of them than the 1% at the top and that makes a BIGGER difference than hiking taxes on the 1%....



In the chart above,

Yes I am saying that the middle class would need to contribute more. Upwards to 25% or so. Like I said above in my previous post, all people who earn an income would pay a flat tax rate along with an addition step/progressive tax % in addition to that based on the income bracket.

Well they'd pretty HAVE TO with all the free stuff you want to guarantee.. In even MODERATELY socialist countries the taxes on middle class, their middle class is carrying the BULK of the taxes.. Because of all the free stuff and benefits... Norway Sweden top rate is in the 50 to 60% range.. But the BIG DIFF is this.....

This chart shows WHERE that highest tax rate kicks in as a MULTIPLE of the "average income"... Folks in those moderate socialist countries get hit with the WORST BRACKET for being just 50% more than the average..

THAT better bring some REALLY REALLY REALLY good services to the middle class in return... Or there would be revolts.. Doesn't even cover their high VAT taxes..

But STILL -- you're not changing "the income gap"... Which is what you set out to do... You've just created monstrous, unfriendly, uncompassionate, one size fits all "programs" for healthcare for everyone.. But the POOR still are poor...

The only other country that I have experience living in and being part of it's culture is Norway. I can't adapt Norway's welfare state to the US exactly because of different variables but there are ways to utilize our collective wealth as a nation and create social programs that can benefit all citizens. It does work in Norway and people are generally very happy with the services for what they pay in taxation but again, the culture is different and the mindset is different which is another point I am trying to make here. We have the collective wealth generated in this country's capitalistic system to create social programs that are "free", but the American mindset is not one of doing what's best for all it's doing what's best for me, and that is the biggest barrier to any collective investment project in my opinion.

The people of Norway, and the people of this country are in no way the same. What works somewhere else won't nessesarily work here because of the people factor involved.

This country is in a constant state of class warfare, jealousy, idolization, greed, racism, reverse racism, lazyness, playing the system's, exploitation, exploiting the system's, hate, radicalism, extremism, lifestyles, spoiled rotteness, entitled etc.

It's amazing we can keep it together as good as we do really. If God was to turn his head away, we would be finished.

That's a big part of what I have been saying since my first post. For any real change to happen in this country it would take a very big culture and mindset change.

The 1st sentence there is what I just addressed... To fix poverty, you DO most of the time have to change the "individualism" of the afflicted... If you've EVER TRIED to help by coaching GED or working Head Start as I have, you'd understand that.. There needs to be a buy-in from the AFFLICTED individual to work towards better "work preparedness" so that they contribute MORE to society than they take.

The 2nd sentence is a very bad misconception.. Rich people haven't EVER stole anything from me.. Not Bill Gates, not Serena Williams, not my Supermarket chain.. WHO exactly is STEALING from you? Money is NOT LIMITED.. When the economy GROWS, more people benefit. It is NOT a fixed pie for 300 million people to fight over...

The largest employer in the country is SMALL BUSINESS.. That's your hair shop, your gym, your tire store or gas station.. Are THEY stealing from you??? They do what they can to pay fair wages according to the SKILLS of the workforce.. There are some waitresses making MORE than "average" American salaries for instance..

This concept that "there is only one winner" is some kind of bad indoctrination disease that you've gotten from somewhere. Businesses START every day to serve the public.,. And they only start because SOMEONE took the RISK to do that. You don't LIKE RISK... There's that word again.. And some have to fail.. But the WINNERS all have a history of being losers.. But most eventually hit on a good or service that makes them LOTS of money.

I agree about point #1. It's why i've emphasized culture change being vital to these ideas to potentially work.

Your second point is confusing though. I have not mentioned yet in this entire topic anything about rich people stealing, so i'm not sure how that relates to my second sentence which was entered on the attitude that many people have which is that winning is the top priority. As for the "one winner" comment the best example I can give is with sports, and in turn what is taught to millions of children (for this example ages up until puberty) through sports, and that is that there can only be one winner. You play to win. Win at all costs in may cases. If you don't win you lost. If you don't score you are slumping or not trying hard enough. Kids are taught these as values growing up and they contribute to idea that everything is a competition and that you can only succeed if you play to win. They grow up and then apply that same value to business in many ways and in turn teach it to their kids once they become adults.

I use this example because youth sports to me is a great example of how culture can change (in my personal opinion for the better) by making it less about individual achievement but more about collective enjoyment of sport. Same would go for life and business in my opinion after that. A person that is raised to fight and win, to beat the other person, to beat the other business, to see compromise and collaboration as weakness, to see someone less successful and associate their personal value as an American or even as a person to that to me that person is an example of a culture that is hostile to progress and togetherness.

Keep in mind I am not saying that there aren't lazy people or moochers on this planet and in this country, there are, but for many people raised in America if you aren't winning by a certain age or if you see not shot at winning then you have no shot at happiness or success and so what's the point? they give up. It's like how many people here view success and happiness as driving a Mercedes and getting that big title they've worked 20 years for, and that's normal in this country, would you agree? Whereas there are other people, admittedly me, that sees a Mercedes and a big title and it does nothing for me. On a personal note success and happiness to me is my little house, a great husband and cycling partner, my cuddly dog, morning coffee, cool co-workers, and weekly game night with friends. I work at my church and do interior design on the side and my husband has a small business as a carpenter. There are many people in this country that would look at us and wonder why we aren't trying to do more, to move up in our jobs, to grow our business, to get a bigger house, to have two cars instead of sharing our one because as a kid that's what you are taught in most households. Culture starts like that, and that's where it would need to start for the future in my opinion.

When a kid is raised to see something like healthcare as something that affects every American equally and that we are all part of the system and that our health isn't dependent on how much we win in life then you will see changes happen. Participating in our healthcare system through income taxes and sales taxes and so one will be viewed as an investment in our country's future as Americans and not as something that is to be thought of as having money taken from me to pay for slackers. We would be raised to believe that we are all in this together. Yes, I know that sounds naive on the surface, but culture takes time, and we got to our current system because of that too so it's not impossible.

In other words you use the educational system and youth sports to attack and destroy the culture funding both and you do it by turning their kids into your acolytes.
Could even Stalin have come up with a more devious plan?

No that's not what I am saying or implying. This is not a communistic plot. Capitalism does not require a person to be cruel, to be all about winning, to value title, money, and success above all things. When it comes to youth sports it should be about togetherness, sportsmanship, and most of all, fun. Just like sports, life and work should also share many of those traits. You don't rid yourself of ambition or even competitiveness, i'm not saying that, but having that success or even the fun be at the expense of someone else is a toxic aspect of culture in my opinion and it's a part of American culture in many way. You can train to win, you can study to do well, you can work hard to reach a goal, those are things that absolutely are human traits and create good things from, but it can't just be about you and the goal shouldn't be to never look behind you to help someone else move forward.

Im glad you enjoy puttering around your church and carpentry and all. But the necessary corollary is "and you pay for my healthcare so I can cuddle my dog and live the good old simple life". Nope. Pay for your own.

You rightly target culture though at least. Politics is the tool to hide the war on our culture and nation.

I'm not asking for you to pay for my healthcare while I cuddle with my dog. We all invest into the system and we all benefit from it.

Yeah I know what “invest” means. It means seize money from my paycheck to pay for your healthcare.
Answer a simple question. Why don’t you pay for your own?

 

[flacaltenn]

I'm not really talking about the government taking care of people though at the taxpayer expense. The taxpayer would be the ones benefitting from these systems that they are paying into. Yes there will always be a small % of a population that is in poverty and will need assistance in some way, but what I am talking about in this thread is, for example, a healthcare system that all taxpayers of all brackets and incomes pay into and then utilize equally.

With a couple people on Obamacare in my family, and no other insurance alternatives, IT SUCKS... If anyone near financial ruin ever gets SICK on Obamacare -- they will be pushed over the edge anyways...

NOBODY benefits from "one size fits all" choices with NO ALTERNATIVES and NO competition... There's no such thing as "free healthcare".. No such thing as "Medicare for all"... Even folks who are SCREAMING for "Medicare for All" show complete ignorance about how CURRENT Medicare is funded or delivered...

Folks do not by large want to be STUCK with no choices... Or forced to buy maternity or mental coverage when they DO NOT need it...

And again -- I haven't seen what you're offering to FIX poverty or "the gap"... Instead you seem to plan to IGNORE poverty and it's causes and consequences and just "toss money at it".....

 

[flacaltenn]

Besides Grace, as I've told you before, the Federal govt has CRIMINALLY mismanaged every "Universal Anything" program or Trust Fund we've allowed them to create... Why in HELL -- should we trust them with BIGGER more COMPLICATED ones?????????

 

[Pogo]

Yes I am saying that the middle class would need to contribute more. Upwards to 25% or so. Like I said above in my previous post, all people who earn an income would pay a flat tax rate along with an addition step/progressive tax % in addition to that based on the income bracket.

Well they'd pretty HAVE TO with all the free stuff you want to guarantee.. In even MODERATELY socialist countries the taxes on middle class, their middle class is carrying the BULK of the taxes.. Because of all the free stuff and benefits... Norway Sweden top rate is in the 50 to 60% range.. But the BIG DIFF is this.....

This chart shows WHERE that highest tax rate kicks in as a MULTIPLE of the "average income"... Folks in those moderate socialist countries get hit with the WORST BRACKET for being just 50% more than the average..

THAT better bring some REALLY REALLY REALLY good services to the middle class in return... Or there would be revolts.. Doesn't even cover their high VAT taxes..

But STILL -- you're not changing "the income gap"... Which is what you set out to do... You've just created monstrous, unfriendly, uncompassionate, one size fits all "programs" for healthcare for everyone.. But the POOR still are poor...

The only other country that I have experience living in and being part of it's culture is Norway. I can't adapt Norway's welfare state to the US exactly because of different variables but there are ways to utilize our collective wealth as a nation and create social programs that can benefit all citizens. It does work in Norway and people are generally very happy with the services for what they pay in taxation but again, the culture is different and the mindset is different which is another point I am trying to make here. We have the collective wealth generated in this country's capitalistic system to create social programs that are "free", but the American mindset is not one of doing what's best for all it's doing what's best for me, and that is the biggest barrier to any collective investment project in my opinion.

The people of Norway, and the people of this country are in no way the same. What works somewhere else won't nessesarily work here because of the people factor involved.

This country is in a constant state of class warfare, jealousy, idolization, greed, racism, reverse racism, lazyness, playing the system's, exploitation, exploiting the system's, hate, radicalism, extremism, lifestyles, spoiled rotteness, entitled etc.

It's amazing we can keep it together as good as we do really. If God was to turn his head away, we would be finished.

That's a big part of what I have been saying since my first post. For any real change to happen in this country it would take a very big culture and mindset change.

I agree about point #1. It's why i've emphasized culture change being vital to these ideas to potentially work.

Your second point is confusing though. I have not mentioned yet in this entire topic anything about rich people stealing, so i'm not sure how that relates to my second sentence which was entered on the attitude that many people have which is that winning is the top priority. As for the "one winner" comment the best example I can give is with sports, and in turn what is taught to millions of children (for this example ages up until puberty) through sports, and that is that there can only be one winner. You play to win. Win at all costs in may cases. If you don't win you lost. If you don't score you are slumping or not trying hard enough. Kids are taught these as values growing up and they contribute to idea that everything is a competition and that you can only succeed if you play to win. They grow up and then apply that same value to business in many ways and in turn teach it to their kids once they become adults.

I use this example because youth sports to me is a great example of how culture can change (in my personal opinion for the better) by making it less about individual achievement but more about collective enjoyment of sport. Same would go for life and business in my opinion after that. A person that is raised to fight and win, to beat the other person, to beat the other business, to see compromise and collaboration as weakness, to see someone less successful and associate their personal value as an American or even as a person to that to me that person is an example of a culture that is hostile to progress and togetherness.

Keep in mind I am not saying that there aren't lazy people or moochers on this planet and in this country, there are, but for many people raised in America if you aren't winning by a certain age or if you see not shot at winning then you have no shot at happiness or success and so what's the point? they give up. It's like how many people here view success and happiness as driving a Mercedes and getting that big title they've worked 20 years for, and that's normal in this country, would you agree? Whereas there are other people, admittedly me, that sees a Mercedes and a big title and it does nothing for me. On a personal note success and happiness to me is my little house, a great husband and cycling partner, my cuddly dog, morning coffee, cool co-workers, and weekly game night with friends. I work at my church and do interior design on the side and my husband has a small business as a carpenter. There are many people in this country that would look at us and wonder why we aren't trying to do more, to move up in our jobs, to grow our business, to get a bigger house, to have two cars instead of sharing our one because as a kid that's what you are taught in most households. Culture starts like that, and that's where it would need to start for the future in my opinion.

When a kid is raised to see something like healthcare as something that affects every American equally and that we are all part of the system and that our health isn't dependent on how much we win in life then you will see changes happen. Participating in our healthcare system through income taxes and sales taxes and so one will be viewed as an investment in our country's future as Americans and not as something that is to be thought of as having money taken from me to pay for slackers. We would be raised to believe that we are all in this together. Yes, I know that sounds naive on the surface, but culture takes time, and we got to our current system because of that too so it's not impossible.

In other words you use the educational system and youth sports to attack and destroy the culture funding both and you do it by turning their kids into your acolytes.
Could even Stalin have come up with a more devious plan?

No that's not what I am saying or implying. This is not a communistic plot. Capitalism does not require a person to be cruel, to be all about winning, to value title, money, and success above all things. When it comes to youth sports it should be about togetherness, sportsmanship, and most of all, fun. Just like sports, life and work should also share many of those traits. You don't rid yourself of ambition or even competitiveness, i'm not saying that, but having that success or even the fun be at the expense of someone else is a toxic aspect of culture in my opinion and it's a part of American culture in many way. You can train to win, you can study to do well, you can work hard to reach a goal, those are things that absolutely are human traits and create good things from, but it can't just be about you and the goal shouldn't be to never look behind you to help someone else move forward.

Im glad you enjoy puttering around your church and carpentry and all. But the necessary corollary is "and you pay for my healthcare so I can cuddle my dog and live the good old simple life". Nope. Pay for your own.

You rightly target culture though at least. Politics is the tool to hide the war on our culture and nation.

I'm not asking for you to pay for my healthcare while I cuddle with my dog. We all invest into the system and we all benefit from it.

Yeah I know what “invest” means. It means seize money from my paycheck to pay for your healthcare.
Answer a simple question. Why don’t you pay for your own?

You're just reinforcing her point about individualistic mentality.

You know that, right?

 

[flacaltenn]

Well they'd pretty HAVE TO with all the free stuff you want to guarantee.. In even MODERATELY socialist countries the taxes on middle class, their middle class is carrying the BULK of the taxes.. Because of all the free stuff and benefits... Norway Sweden top rate is in the 50 to 60% range.. But the BIG DIFF is this.....

This chart shows WHERE that highest tax rate kicks in as a MULTIPLE of the "average income"... Folks in those moderate socialist countries get hit with the WORST BRACKET for being just 50% more than the average..

THAT better bring some REALLY REALLY REALLY good services to the middle class in return... Or there would be revolts.. Doesn't even cover their high VAT taxes..

But STILL -- you're not changing "the income gap"... Which is what you set out to do... You've just created monstrous, unfriendly, uncompassionate, one size fits all "programs" for healthcare for everyone.. But the POOR still are poor...

The only other country that I have experience living in and being part of it's culture is Norway. I can't adapt Norway's welfare state to the US exactly because of different variables but there are ways to utilize our collective wealth as a nation and create social programs that can benefit all citizens. It does work in Norway and people are generally very happy with the services for what they pay in taxation but again, the culture is different and the mindset is different which is another point I am trying to make here. We have the collective wealth generated in this country's capitalistic system to create social programs that are "free", but the American mindset is not one of doing what's best for all it's doing what's best for me, and that is the biggest barrier to any collective investment project in my opinion.

The people of Norway, and the people of this country are in no way the same. What works somewhere else won't nessesarily work here because of the people factor involved.

This country is in a constant state of class warfare, jealousy, idolization, greed, racism, reverse racism, lazyness, playing the system's, exploitation, exploiting the system's, hate, radicalism, extremism, lifestyles, spoiled rotteness, entitled etc.

It's amazing we can keep it together as good as we do really. If God was to turn his head away, we would be finished.

That's a big part of what I have been saying since my first post. For any real change to happen in this country it would take a very big culture and mindset change.

In other words you use the educational system and youth sports to attack and destroy the culture funding both and you do it by turning their kids into your acolytes.
Could even Stalin have come up with a more devious plan?

No that's not what I am saying or implying. This is not a communistic plot. Capitalism does not require a person to be cruel, to be all about winning, to value title, money, and success above all things. When it comes to youth sports it should be about togetherness, sportsmanship, and most of all, fun. Just like sports, life and work should also share many of those traits. You don't rid yourself of ambition or even competitiveness, i'm not saying that, but having that success or even the fun be at the expense of someone else is a toxic aspect of culture in my opinion and it's a part of American culture in many way. You can train to win, you can study to do well, you can work hard to reach a goal, those are things that absolutely are human traits and create good things from, but it can't just be about you and the goal shouldn't be to never look behind you to help someone else move forward.

Im glad you enjoy puttering around your church and carpentry and all. But the necessary corollary is "and you pay for my healthcare so I can cuddle my dog and live the good old simple life". Nope. Pay for your own.

You rightly target culture though at least. Politics is the tool to hide the war on our culture and nation.

I'm not asking for you to pay for my healthcare while I cuddle with my dog. We all invest into the system and we all benefit from it.

Yeah I know what “invest” means. It means seize money from my paycheck to pay for your healthcare.
Answer a simple question. Why don’t you pay for your own?

You're just reinforcing her point about individualistic mentality.

You know that, right?

Is it "individualistic mentality" or just an effort to NOT LOSE economic and financial FREEDOMS AND LIBERTIES?????

Doesn't matter how vulgar your speech can be if YOUR wages are claimed by others for "the common good"... You still are looking into the belly of the beast of AUTHORITARIANISM...

 

[Pogo]

The only other country that I have experience living in and being part of it's culture is Norway. I can't adapt Norway's welfare state to the US exactly because of different variables but there are ways to utilize our collective wealth as a nation and create social programs that can benefit all citizens. It does work in Norway and people are generally very happy with the services for what they pay in taxation but again, the culture is different and the mindset is different which is another point I am trying to make here. We have the collective wealth generated in this country's capitalistic system to create social programs that are "free", but the American mindset is not one of doing what's best for all it's doing what's best for me, and that is the biggest barrier to any collective investment project in my opinion.

The people of Norway, and the people of this country are in no way the same. What works somewhere else won't nessesarily work here because of the people factor involved.

This country is in a constant state of class warfare, jealousy, idolization, greed, racism, reverse racism, lazyness, playing the system's, exploitation, exploiting the system's, hate, radicalism, extremism, lifestyles, spoiled rotteness, entitled etc.

It's amazing we can keep it together as good as we do really. If God was to turn his head away, we would be finished.

That's a big part of what I have been saying since my first post. For any real change to happen in this country it would take a very big culture and mindset change.

No that's not what I am saying or implying. This is not a communistic plot. Capitalism does not require a person to be cruel, to be all about winning, to value title, money, and success above all things. When it comes to youth sports it should be about togetherness, sportsmanship, and most of all, fun. Just like sports, life and work should also share many of those traits. You don't rid yourself of ambition or even competitiveness, i'm not saying that, but having that success or even the fun be at the expense of someone else is a toxic aspect of culture in my opinion and it's a part of American culture in many way. You can train to win, you can study to do well, you can work hard to reach a goal, those are things that absolutely are human traits and create good things from, but it can't just be about you and the goal shouldn't be to never look behind you to help someone else move forward.

Im glad you enjoy puttering around your church and carpentry and all. But the necessary corollary is "and you pay for my healthcare so I can cuddle my dog and live the good old simple life". Nope. Pay for your own.

You rightly target culture though at least. Politics is the tool to hide the war on our culture and nation.

I'm not asking for you to pay for my healthcare while I cuddle with my dog. We all invest into the system and we all benefit from it.

Yeah I know what “invest” means. It means seize money from my paycheck to pay for your healthcare.
Answer a simple question. Why don’t you pay for your own?

You're just reinforcing her point about individualistic mentality.

You know that, right?

Is it "individualistic mentality" or just an effort to NOT LOSE economic and financial FREEDOMS AND LIBERTIES?????

Doesn't matter how vulgar your speech can be if YOUR wages are claimed by others for "the common good"... You still are looking into the belly of the beast of AUTHORITARIANISM...

This concept has nothing to do with 'government'. Cool the obsessive song and dance.

 

[Grace Is Stoked]

Besides Grace, as I've told you before, the Federal govt has CRIMINALLY mismanaged every "Universal Anything" program or Trust Fund we've allowed them to create... Why in HELL -- should we trust them with BIGGER more COMPLICATED ones?????????

Our current government and our current political culture and mindset I wouldn't trust with this. (I also would not trust the past administrations). In many of these other countries with a successful national program there is higher trust and accountability in their elected officials. The US is not there right now in my opinion and it will take a lot of changes for it to get there I think.

 

[Grace Is Stoked]

We're already there... The top 5% of wage earners pay about 65% of ALL income tax.. The bottom 50% of wage earners pay next to nothing.. How much MORE "progressive" can you get???

Who Pays Income Taxes?

The new data shows that the top 1 percent of earners (with incomes over $515,371) paid nearly 39 percent of all income taxes, up slightly from the previous tax year’s 37 percent share. The amount of taxes paid in this percentile is nearly twice as much their adjusted gross income (AGI) load.

The top 10 percent of earners bore responsibility for 70 percent of all income taxes paid – up slightly from 2016 – while half of all tax filers paid 97 percent of all income tax revenue. Indicating the degree of progressivity in the code, the bottom 50 percent of earners took home 11 percent of total nationwide income while owing 3 percent of all income taxes.

Now -- if you're saying your saying the MIDDLE class need to contribute more (and even at 25% most of them WOULD be) -- you're probably right.. Because there's 30 times MORE of them than the 1% at the top and that makes a BIGGER difference than hiking taxes on the 1%....



In the chart above,

Yes I am saying that the middle class would need to contribute more. Upwards to 25% or so. Like I said above in my previous post, all people who earn an income would pay a flat tax rate along with an addition step/progressive tax % in addition to that based on the income bracket.

Well they'd pretty HAVE TO with all the free stuff you want to guarantee.. In even MODERATELY socialist countries the taxes on middle class, their middle class is carrying the BULK of the taxes.. Because of all the free stuff and benefits... Norway Sweden top rate is in the 50 to 60% range.. But the BIG DIFF is this.....

This chart shows WHERE that highest tax rate kicks in as a MULTIPLE of the "average income"... Folks in those moderate socialist countries get hit with the WORST BRACKET for being just 50% more than the average..

THAT better bring some REALLY REALLY REALLY good services to the middle class in return... Or there would be revolts.. Doesn't even cover their high VAT taxes..

But STILL -- you're not changing "the income gap"... Which is what you set out to do... You've just created monstrous, unfriendly, uncompassionate, one size fits all "programs" for healthcare for everyone.. But the POOR still are poor...

The only other country that I have experience living in and being part of it's culture is Norway. I can't adapt Norway's welfare state to the US exactly because of different variables but there are ways to utilize our collective wealth as a nation and create social programs that can benefit all citizens. It does work in Norway and people are generally very happy with the services for what they pay in taxation but again, the culture is different and the mindset is different which is another point I am trying to make here. We have the collective wealth generated in this country's capitalistic system to create social programs that are "free", but the American mindset is not one of doing what's best for all it's doing what's best for me, and that is the biggest barrier to any collective investment project in my opinion.

The people of Norway, and the people of this country are in no way the same. What works somewhere else won't nessesarily work here because of the people factor involved.

This country is in a constant state of class warfare, jealousy, idolization, greed, racism, reverse racism, lazyness, playing the system's, exploitation, exploiting the system's, hate, radicalism, extremism, lifestyles, spoiled rotteness, entitled etc.

It's amazing we can keep it together as good as we do really. If God was to turn his head away, we would be finished.

That's a big part of what I have been saying since my first post. For any real change to happen in this country it would take a very big culture and mindset change.

The 1st sentence there is what I just addressed... To fix poverty, you DO most of the time have to change the "individualism" of the afflicted... If you've EVER TRIED to help by coaching GED or working Head Start as I have, you'd understand that.. There needs to be a buy-in from the AFFLICTED individual to work towards better "work preparedness" so that they contribute MORE to society than they take.

The 2nd sentence is a very bad misconception.. Rich people haven't EVER stole anything from me.. Not Bill Gates, not Serena Williams, not my Supermarket chain.. WHO exactly is STEALING from you? Money is NOT LIMITED.. When the economy GROWS, more people benefit. It is NOT a fixed pie for 300 million people to fight over...

The largest employer in the country is SMALL BUSINESS.. That's your hair shop, your gym, your tire store or gas station.. Are THEY stealing from you??? They do what they can to pay fair wages according to the SKILLS of the workforce.. There are some waitresses making MORE than "average" American salaries for instance..

This concept that "there is only one winner" is some kind of bad indoctrination disease that you've gotten from somewhere. Businesses START every day to serve the public.,. And they only start because SOMEONE took the RISK to do that. You don't LIKE RISK... There's that word again.. And some have to fail.. But the WINNERS all have a history of being losers.. But most eventually hit on a good or service that makes them LOTS of money.

I agree about point #1. It's why i've emphasized culture change being vital to these ideas to potentially work.

Your second point is confusing though. I have not mentioned yet in this entire topic anything about rich people stealing, so i'm not sure how that relates to my second sentence which was entered on the attitude that many people have which is that winning is the top priority. As for the "one winner" comment the best example I can give is with sports, and in turn what is taught to millions of children (for this example ages up until puberty) through sports, and that is that there can only be one winner. You play to win. Win at all costs in may cases. If you don't win you lost. If you don't score you are slumping or not trying hard enough. Kids are taught these as values growing up and they contribute to idea that everything is a competition and that you can only succeed if you play to win. They grow up and then apply that same value to business in many ways and in turn teach it to their kids once they become adults.

I use this example because youth sports to me is a great example of how culture can change (in my personal opinion for the better) by making it less about individual achievement but more about collective enjoyment of sport. Same would go for life and business in my opinion after that. A person that is raised to fight and win, to beat the other person, to beat the other business, to see compromise and collaboration as weakness, to see someone less successful and associate their personal value as an American or even as a person to that to me that person is an example of a culture that is hostile to progress and togetherness.

Keep in mind I am not saying that there aren't lazy people or moochers on this planet and in this country, there are, but for many people raised in America if you aren't winning by a certain age or if you see not shot at winning then you have no shot at happiness or success and so what's the point? they give up. It's like how many people here view success and happiness as driving a Mercedes and getting that big title they've worked 20 years for, and that's normal in this country, would you agree? Whereas there are other people, admittedly me, that sees a Mercedes and a big title and it does nothing for me. On a personal note success and happiness to me is my little house, a great husband and cycling partner, my cuddly dog, morning coffee, cool co-workers, and weekly game night with friends. I work at my church and do interior design on the side and my husband has a small business as a carpenter. There are many people in this country that would look at us and wonder why we aren't trying to do more, to move up in our jobs, to grow our business, to get a bigger house, to have two cars instead of sharing our one because as a kid that's what you are taught in most households. Culture starts like that, and that's where it would need to start for the future in my opinion.

When a kid is raised to see something like healthcare as something that affects every American equally and that we are all part of the system and that our health isn't dependent on how much we win in life then you will see changes happen. Participating in our healthcare system through income taxes and sales taxes and so one will be viewed as an investment in our country's future as Americans and not as something that is to be thought of as having money taken from me to pay for slackers. We would be raised to believe that we are all in this together. Yes, I know that sounds naive on the surface, but culture takes time, and we got to our current system because of that too so it's not impossible.

In other words you use the educational system and youth sports to attack and destroy the culture funding both and you do it by turning their kids into your acolytes.
Could even Stalin have come up with a more devious plan?

No that's not what I am saying or implying. This is not a communistic plot. Capitalism does not require a person to be cruel, to be all about winning, to value title, money, and success above all things. When it comes to youth sports it should be about togetherness, sportsmanship, and most of all, fun. Just like sports, life and work should also share many of those traits. You don't rid yourself of ambition or even competitiveness, i'm not saying that, but having that success or even the fun be at the expense of someone else is a toxic aspect of culture in my opinion and it's a part of American culture in many way. You can train to win, you can study to do well, you can work hard to reach a goal, those are things that absolutely are human traits and create good things from, but it can't just be about you and the goal shouldn't be to never look behind you to help someone else move forward.

Im glad you enjoy puttering around your church and carpentry and all. But the necessary corollary is "and you pay for my healthcare so I can cuddle my dog and live the good old simple life". Nope. Pay for your own.

You rightly target culture though at least. Politics is the tool to hide the war on our culture and nation.

I'm not asking for you to pay for my healthcare while I cuddle with my dog. We all invest into the system and we all benefit from it.

Yeah I know what “invest” means. It means seize money from my paycheck to pay for your healthcare.
Answer a simple question. Why don’t you pay for your own?

I would be paying for my own, as would you, but the money that we are using to "pay" for it would go into the same system that regardless of your income or success would be for all of us. As I mentioned earlier in this thread that if the doctor, the business owner, the custodian, the pilot, the CEO, the entry level employee and so on are all paying into the same system then all would have a desire to see it succeed in my opinion.

 

[Cellblock2429]

We're already there... The top 5% of wage earners pay about 65% of ALL income tax.. The bottom 50% of wage earners pay next to nothing.. How much MORE "progressive" can you get???

Who Pays Income Taxes?

The new data shows that the top 1 percent of earners (with incomes over $515,371) paid nearly 39 percent of all income taxes, up slightly from the previous tax year’s 37 percent share. The amount of taxes paid in this percentile is nearly twice as much their adjusted gross income (AGI) load.

The top 10 percent of earners bore responsibility for 70 percent of all income taxes paid – up slightly from 2016 – while half of all tax filers paid 97 percent of all income tax revenue. Indicating the degree of progressivity in the code, the bottom 50 percent of earners took home 11 percent of total nationwide income while owing 3 percent of all income taxes.

Now -- if you're saying your saying the MIDDLE class need to contribute more (and even at 25% most of them WOULD be) -- you're probably right.. Because there's 30 times MORE of them than the 1% at the top and that makes a BIGGER difference than hiking taxes on the 1%....



In the chart above,

Yes I am saying that the middle class would need to contribute more. Upwards to 25% or so. Like I said above in my previous post, all people who earn an income would pay a flat tax rate along with an addition step/progressive tax % in addition to that based on the income bracket.

Well they'd pretty HAVE TO with all the free stuff you want to guarantee.. In even MODERATELY socialist countries the taxes on middle class, their middle class is carrying the BULK of the taxes.. Because of all the free stuff and benefits... Norway Sweden top rate is in the 50 to 60% range.. But the BIG DIFF is this.....

This chart shows WHERE that highest tax rate kicks in as a MULTIPLE of the "average income"... Folks in those moderate socialist countries get hit with the WORST BRACKET for being just 50% more than the average..

THAT better bring some REALLY REALLY REALLY good services to the middle class in return... Or there would be revolts.. Doesn't even cover their high VAT taxes..

But STILL -- you're not changing "the income gap"... Which is what you set out to do... You've just created monstrous, unfriendly, uncompassionate, one size fits all "programs" for healthcare for everyone.. But the POOR still are poor...

The only other country that I have experience living in and being part of it's culture is Norway. I can't adapt Norway's welfare state to the US exactly because of different variables but there are ways to utilize our collective wealth as a nation and create social programs that can benefit all citizens. It does work in Norway and people are generally very happy with the services for what they pay in taxation but again, the culture is different and the mindset is different which is another point I am trying to make here. We have the collective wealth generated in this country's capitalistic system to create social programs that are "free", but the American mindset is not one of doing what's best for all it's doing what's best for me, and that is the biggest barrier to any collective investment project in my opinion.

The people of Norway, and the people of this country are in no way the same. What works somewhere else won't nessesarily work here because of the people factor involved.

This country is in a constant state of class warfare, jealousy, idolization, greed, racism, reverse racism, lazyness, playing the system's, exploitation, exploiting the system's, hate, radicalism, extremism, lifestyles, spoiled rotteness, entitled etc.

It's amazing we can keep it together as good as we do really. If God was to turn his head away, we would be finished.

That's a big part of what I have been saying since my first post. For any real change to happen in this country it would take a very big culture and mindset change.

The 1st sentence there is what I just addressed... To fix poverty, you DO most of the time have to change the "individualism" of the afflicted... If you've EVER TRIED to help by coaching GED or working Head Start as I have, you'd understand that.. There needs to be a buy-in from the AFFLICTED individual to work towards better "work preparedness" so that they contribute MORE to society than they take.

The 2nd sentence is a very bad misconception.. Rich people haven't EVER stole anything from me.. Not Bill Gates, not Serena Williams, not my Supermarket chain.. WHO exactly is STEALING from you? Money is NOT LIMITED.. When the economy GROWS, more people benefit. It is NOT a fixed pie for 300 million people to fight over...

The largest employer in the country is SMALL BUSINESS.. That's your hair shop, your gym, your tire store or gas station.. Are THEY stealing from you??? They do what they can to pay fair wages according to the SKILLS of the workforce.. There are some waitresses making MORE than "average" American salaries for instance..

This concept that "there is only one winner" is some kind of bad indoctrination disease that you've gotten from somewhere. Businesses START every day to serve the public.,. And they only start because SOMEONE took the RISK to do that. You don't LIKE RISK... There's that word again.. And some have to fail.. But the WINNERS all have a history of being losers.. But most eventually hit on a good or service that makes them LOTS of money.

I agree about point #1. It's why i've emphasized culture change being vital to these ideas to potentially work.

Your second point is confusing though. I have not mentioned yet in this entire topic anything about rich people stealing, so i'm not sure how that relates to my second sentence which was entered on the attitude that many people have which is that winning is the top priority. As for the "one winner" comment the best example I can give is with sports, and in turn what is taught to millions of children (for this example ages up until puberty) through sports, and that is that there can only be one winner. You play to win. Win at all costs in may cases. If you don't win you lost. If you don't score you are slumping or not trying hard enough. Kids are taught these as values growing up and they contribute to idea that everything is a competition and that you can only succeed if you play to win. They grow up and then apply that same value to business in many ways and in turn teach it to their kids once they become adults.

I use this example because youth sports to me is a great example of how culture can change (in my personal opinion for the better) by making it less about individual achievement but more about collective enjoyment of sport. Same would go for life and business in my opinion after that. A person that is raised to fight and win, to beat the other person, to beat the other business, to see compromise and collaboration as weakness, to see someone less successful and associate their personal value as an American or even as a person to that to me that person is an example of a culture that is hostile to progress and togetherness.

Keep in mind I am not saying that there aren't lazy people or moochers on this planet and in this country, there are, but for many people raised in America if you aren't winning by a certain age or if you see not shot at winning then you have no shot at happiness or success and so what's the point? they give up. It's like how many people here view success and happiness as driving a Mercedes and getting that big title they've worked 20 years for, and that's normal in this country, would you agree? Whereas there are other people, admittedly me, that sees a Mercedes and a big title and it does nothing for me. On a personal note success and happiness to me is my little house, a great husband and cycling partner, my cuddly dog, morning coffee, cool co-workers, and weekly game night with friends. I work at my church and do interior design on the side and my husband has a small business as a carpenter. There are many people in this country that would look at us and wonder why we aren't trying to do more, to move up in our jobs, to grow our business, to get a bigger house, to have two cars instead of sharing our one because as a kid that's what you are taught in most households. Culture starts like that, and that's where it would need to start for the future in my opinion.

When a kid is raised to see something like healthcare as something that affects every American equally and that we are all part of the system and that our health isn't dependent on how much we win in life then you will see changes happen. Participating in our healthcare system through income taxes and sales taxes and so one will be viewed as an investment in our country's future as Americans and not as something that is to be thought of as having money taken from me to pay for slackers. We would be raised to believe that we are all in this together. Yes, I know that sounds naive on the surface, but culture takes time, and we got to our current system because of that too so it's not impossible.

In other words you use the educational system and youth sports to attack and destroy the culture funding both and you do it by turning their kids into your acolytes.
Could even Stalin have come up with a more devious plan?

No that's not what I am saying or implying. This is not a communistic plot. Capitalism does not require a person to be cruel, to be all about winning, to value title, money, and success above all things. When it comes to youth sports it should be about togetherness, sportsmanship, and most of all, fun. Just like sports, life and work should also share many of those traits. You don't rid yourself of ambition or even competitiveness, i'm not saying that, but having that success or even the fun be at the expense of someone else is a toxic aspect of culture in my opinion and it's a part of American culture in many way. You can train to win, you can study to do well, you can work hard to reach a goal, those are things that absolutely are human traits and create good things from, but it can't just be about you and the goal shouldn't be to never look behind you to help someone else move forward.

Im glad you enjoy puttering around your church and carpentry and all. But the necessary corollary is "and you pay for my healthcare so I can cuddle my dog and live the good old simple life". Nope. Pay for your own.

You rightly target culture though at least. Politics is the tool to hide the war on our culture and nation.

I'm not asking for you to pay for my healthcare while I cuddle with my dog. We all invest into the system and we all benefit from it.

Yeah I know what “invest” means. It means seize money from my paycheck to pay for your healthcare.
Answer a simple question. Why don’t you pay for your own?

I would be paying for my own, as would you, but the money that we are using to "pay" for it would go into the same system that regardless of your income or success would be for all of us. As I mentioned earlier in this thread that if the doctor, the business owner, the custodian, the pilot, the CEO, the entry level employee and so on are all paying into the same system then all would have a desire to see it succeed in my opinion.

/——/ Socialized medicine, a proven failure everywhere it’s been tried.

 

[Grace Is Stoked]

We're already there... The top 5% of wage earners pay about 65% of ALL income tax.. The bottom 50% of wage earners pay next to nothing.. How much MORE "progressive" can you get???

Who Pays Income Taxes?

The new data shows that the top 1 percent of earners (with incomes over $515,371) paid nearly 39 percent of all income taxes, up slightly from the previous tax year’s 37 percent share. The amount of taxes paid in this percentile is nearly twice as much their adjusted gross income (AGI) load.

The top 10 percent of earners bore responsibility for 70 percent of all income taxes paid – up slightly from 2016 – while half of all tax filers paid 97 percent of all income tax revenue. Indicating the degree of progressivity in the code, the bottom 50 percent of earners took home 11 percent of total nationwide income while owing 3 percent of all income taxes.

Now -- if you're saying your saying the MIDDLE class need to contribute more (and even at 25% most of them WOULD be) -- you're probably right.. Because there's 30 times MORE of them than the 1% at the top and that makes a BIGGER difference than hiking taxes on the 1%....



In the chart above,

Yes I am saying that the middle class would need to contribute more. Upwards to 25% or so. Like I said above in my previous post, all people who earn an income would pay a flat tax rate along with an addition step/progressive tax % in addition to that based on the income bracket.

Well they'd pretty HAVE TO with all the free stuff you want to guarantee.. In even MODERATELY socialist countries the taxes on middle class, their middle class is carrying the BULK of the taxes.. Because of all the free stuff and benefits... Norway Sweden top rate is in the 50 to 60% range.. But the BIG DIFF is this.....

This chart shows WHERE that highest tax rate kicks in as a MULTIPLE of the "average income"... Folks in those moderate socialist countries get hit with the WORST BRACKET for being just 50% more than the average..

THAT better bring some REALLY REALLY REALLY good services to the middle class in return... Or there would be revolts.. Doesn't even cover their high VAT taxes..

But STILL -- you're not changing "the income gap"... Which is what you set out to do... You've just created monstrous, unfriendly, uncompassionate, one size fits all "programs" for healthcare for everyone.. But the POOR still are poor...

The only other country that I have experience living in and being part of it's culture is Norway. I can't adapt Norway's welfare state to the US exactly because of different variables but there are ways to utilize our collective wealth as a nation and create social programs that can benefit all citizens. It does work in Norway and people are generally very happy with the services for what they pay in taxation but again, the culture is different and the mindset is different which is another point I am trying to make here. We have the collective wealth generated in this country's capitalistic system to create social programs that are "free", but the American mindset is not one of doing what's best for all it's doing what's best for me, and that is the biggest barrier to any collective investment project in my opinion.

The people of Norway, and the people of this country are in no way the same. What works somewhere else won't nessesarily work here because of the people factor involved.

This country is in a constant state of class warfare, jealousy, idolization, greed, racism, reverse racism, lazyness, playing the system's, exploitation, exploiting the system's, hate, radicalism, extremism, lifestyles, spoiled rotteness, entitled etc.

It's amazing we can keep it together as good as we do really. If God was to turn his head away, we would be finished.

That's a big part of what I have been saying since my first post. For any real change to happen in this country it would take a very big culture and mindset change.

The 1st sentence there is what I just addressed... To fix poverty, you DO most of the time have to change the "individualism" of the afflicted... If you've EVER TRIED to help by coaching GED or working Head Start as I have, you'd understand that.. There needs to be a buy-in from the AFFLICTED individual to work towards better "work preparedness" so that they contribute MORE to society than they take.

The 2nd sentence is a very bad misconception.. Rich people haven't EVER stole anything from me.. Not Bill Gates, not Serena Williams, not my Supermarket chain.. WHO exactly is STEALING from you? Money is NOT LIMITED.. When the economy GROWS, more people benefit. It is NOT a fixed pie for 300 million people to fight over...

The largest employer in the country is SMALL BUSINESS.. That's your hair shop, your gym, your tire store or gas station.. Are THEY stealing from you??? They do what they can to pay fair wages according to the SKILLS of the workforce.. There are some waitresses making MORE than "average" American salaries for instance..

This concept that "there is only one winner" is some kind of bad indoctrination disease that you've gotten from somewhere. Businesses START every day to serve the public.,. And they only start because SOMEONE took the RISK to do that. You don't LIKE RISK... There's that word again.. And some have to fail.. But the WINNERS all have a history of being losers.. But most eventually hit on a good or service that makes them LOTS of money.

I agree about point #1. It's why i've emphasized culture change being vital to these ideas to potentially work.

Your second point is confusing though. I have not mentioned yet in this entire topic anything about rich people stealing, so i'm not sure how that relates to my second sentence which was entered on the attitude that many people have which is that winning is the top priority. As for the "one winner" comment the best example I can give is with sports, and in turn what is taught to millions of children (for this example ages up until puberty) through sports, and that is that there can only be one winner. You play to win. Win at all costs in may cases. If you don't win you lost. If you don't score you are slumping or not trying hard enough. Kids are taught these as values growing up and they contribute to idea that everything is a competition and that you can only succeed if you play to win. They grow up and then apply that same value to business in many ways and in turn teach it to their kids once they become adults.

I use this example because youth sports to me is a great example of how culture can change (in my personal opinion for the better) by making it less about individual achievement but more about collective enjoyment of sport. Same would go for life and business in my opinion after that. A person that is raised to fight and win, to beat the other person, to beat the other business, to see compromise and collaboration as weakness, to see someone less successful and associate their personal value as an American or even as a person to that to me that person is an example of a culture that is hostile to progress and togetherness.

Keep in mind I am not saying that there aren't lazy people or moochers on this planet and in this country, there are, but for many people raised in America if you aren't winning by a certain age or if you see not shot at winning then you have no shot at happiness or success and so what's the point? they give up. It's like how many people here view success and happiness as driving a Mercedes and getting that big title they've worked 20 years for, and that's normal in this country, would you agree? Whereas there are other people, admittedly me, that sees a Mercedes and a big title and it does nothing for me. On a personal note success and happiness to me is my little house, a great husband and cycling partner, my cuddly dog, morning coffee, cool co-workers, and weekly game night with friends. I work at my church and do interior design on the side and my husband has a small business as a carpenter. There are many people in this country that would look at us and wonder why we aren't trying to do more, to move up in our jobs, to grow our business, to get a bigger house, to have two cars instead of sharing our one because as a kid that's what you are taught in most households. Culture starts like that, and that's where it would need to start for the future in my opinion.

When a kid is raised to see something like healthcare as something that affects every American equally and that we are all part of the system and that our health isn't dependent on how much we win in life then you will see changes happen. Participating in our healthcare system through income taxes and sales taxes and so one will be viewed as an investment in our country's future as Americans and not as something that is to be thought of as having money taken from me to pay for slackers. We would be raised to believe that we are all in this together. Yes, I know that sounds naive on the surface, but culture takes time, and we got to our current system because of that too so it's not impossible.

In other words you use the educational system and youth sports to attack and destroy the culture funding both and you do it by turning their kids into your acolytes.
Could even Stalin have come up with a more devious plan?

No that's not what I am saying or implying. This is not a communistic plot. Capitalism does not require a person to be cruel, to be all about winning, to value title, money, and success above all things. When it comes to youth sports it should be about togetherness, sportsmanship, and most of all, fun. Just like sports, life and work should also share many of those traits. You don't rid yourself of ambition or even competitiveness, i'm not saying that, but having that success or even the fun be at the expense of someone else is a toxic aspect of culture in my opinion and it's a part of American culture in many way. You can train to win, you can study to do well, you can work hard to reach a goal, those are things that absolutely are human traits and create good things from, but it can't just be about you and the goal shouldn't be to never look behind you to help someone else move forward.

Im glad you enjoy puttering around your church and carpentry and all. But the necessary corollary is "and you pay for my healthcare so I can cuddle my dog and live the good old simple life". Nope. Pay for your own.

You rightly target culture though at least. Politics is the tool to hide the war on our culture and nation.

I'm not asking for you to pay for my healthcare while I cuddle with my dog. We all invest into the system and we all benefit from it.

Yeah I know what “invest” means. It means seize money from my paycheck to pay for your healthcare.
Answer a simple question. Why don’t you pay for your own?

I would be paying for my own, as would you, but the money that we are using to "pay" for it would go into the same system that regardless of your income or success would be for all of us. As I mentioned earlier in this thread that if the doctor, the business owner, the custodian, the pilot, the CEO, the entry level employee and so on are all paying into the same system then all would have a desire to see it succeed in my opinion.

/——/ Socialized medicine, a proven failure everywhere it’s been tried.

I think that depends on how you define failure or how you personally look for failure. You could make the argument that the current system in the U.S. is a failure in many ways couldn't you?

 

[flacaltenn]

I would be paying for my own, as would you, but the money that we are using to "pay" for it would go into the same system that regardless of your income or success would be for all of us. As I mentioned earlier in this thread that if the doctor, the business owner, the custodian, the pilot, the CEO, the entry level employee and so on are all paying into the same system then all would have a desire to see it succeed in my opinion.

Nobody "pays for their own" under grossly progressive taxation.. I showed you where the Scandinavian countries kick in "the HIGHEST RATE".. You only have to earn 50% more than "average" before you're paying the SAME RATE as the richest in the country.. THIS is how "Scandinavia makes it work"... By KILLING upward mobility and making it more profitable to QUIT WORK for that year before you hit that income limit... The MIDDLE CLASS are generating MOST of the tax income.. Whereas in AMERICA, the upper 15% is generating most of the income..

What you GET for that sacrifice better be DAMN good and guaranteed....

Only place I think you are right is that EVERYONE should get some token "tax bill".. Even folks barely above poverty.. Right now in the US -- about 1/2 of wage earners PAY NO Federal income taxes or even get an EITC refund if you made too little.. That's where the money has got to come from.. From the 1/2 that PAYS nothing, but still GETS the benefits...

 

[Dragonlady]

We're already there... The top 5% of wage earners pay about 65% of ALL income tax.. The bottom 50% of wage earners pay next to nothing.. How much MORE "progressive" can you get???

Who Pays Income Taxes?

The new data shows that the top 1 percent of earners (with incomes over $515,371) paid nearly 39 percent of all income taxes, up slightly from the previous tax year’s 37 percent share. The amount of taxes paid in this percentile is nearly twice as much their adjusted gross income (AGI) load.

The top 10 percent of earners bore responsibility for 70 percent of all income taxes paid – up slightly from 2016 – while half of all tax filers paid 97 percent of all income tax revenue. Indicating the degree of progressivity in the code, the bottom 50 percent of earners took home 11 percent of total nationwide income while owing 3 percent of all income taxes.

Now -- if you're saying your saying the MIDDLE class need to contribute more (and even at 25% most of them WOULD be) -- you're probably right.. Because there's 30 times MORE of them than the 1% at the top and that makes a BIGGER difference than hiking taxes on the 1%....



In the chart above,

Yes I am saying that the middle class would need to contribute more. Upwards to 25% or so. Like I said above in my previous post, all people who earn an income would pay a flat tax rate along with an addition step/progressive tax % in addition to that based on the income bracket.

Well they'd pretty HAVE TO with all the free stuff you want to guarantee.. In even MODERATELY socialist countries the taxes on middle class, their middle class is carrying the BULK of the taxes.. Because of all the free stuff and benefits... Norway Sweden top rate is in the 50 to 60% range.. But the BIG DIFF is this.....

This chart shows WHERE that highest tax rate kicks in as a MULTIPLE of the "average income"... Folks in those moderate socialist countries get hit with the WORST BRACKET for being just 50% more than the average..

THAT better bring some REALLY REALLY REALLY good services to the middle class in return... Or there would be revolts.. Doesn't even cover their high VAT taxes..

But STILL -- you're not changing "the income gap"... Which is what you set out to do... You've just created monstrous, unfriendly, uncompassionate, one size fits all "programs" for healthcare for everyone.. But the POOR still are poor...

The only other country that I have experience living in and being part of it's culture is Norway. I can't adapt Norway's welfare state to the US exactly because of different variables but there are ways to utilize our collective wealth as a nation and create social programs that can benefit all citizens. It does work in Norway and people are generally very happy with the services for what they pay in taxation but again, the culture is different and the mindset is different which is another point I am trying to make here. We have the collective wealth generated in this country's capitalistic system to create social programs that are "free", but the American mindset is not one of doing what's best for all it's doing what's best for me, and that is the biggest barrier to any collective investment project in my opinion.

The people of Norway, and the people of this country are in no way the same. What works somewhere else won't nessesarily work here because of the people factor involved.

This country is in a constant state of class warfare, jealousy, idolization, greed, racism, reverse racism, lazyness, playing the system's, exploitation, exploiting the system's, hate, radicalism, extremism, lifestyles, spoiled rotteness, entitled etc.

It's amazing we can keep it together as good as we do really. If God was to turn his head away, we would be finished.

That's a big part of what I have been saying since my first post. For any real change to happen in this country it would take a very big culture and mindset change.

The 1st sentence there is what I just addressed... To fix poverty, you DO most of the time have to change the "individualism" of the afflicted... If you've EVER TRIED to help by coaching GED or working Head Start as I have, you'd understand that.. There needs to be a buy-in from the AFFLICTED individual to work towards better "work preparedness" so that they contribute MORE to society than they take.

The 2nd sentence is a very bad misconception.. Rich people haven't EVER stole anything from me.. Not Bill Gates, not Serena Williams, not my Supermarket chain.. WHO exactly is STEALING from you? Money is NOT LIMITED.. When the economy GROWS, more people benefit. It is NOT a fixed pie for 300 million people to fight over...

The largest employer in the country is SMALL BUSINESS.. That's your hair shop, your gym, your tire store or gas station.. Are THEY stealing from you??? They do what they can to pay fair wages according to the SKILLS of the workforce.. There are some waitresses making MORE than "average" American salaries for instance..

This concept that "there is only one winner" is some kind of bad indoctrination disease that you've gotten from somewhere. Businesses START every day to serve the public.,. And they only start because SOMEONE took the RISK to do that. You don't LIKE RISK... There's that word again.. And some have to fail.. But the WINNERS all have a history of being losers.. But most eventually hit on a good or service that makes them LOTS of money.

I agree about point #1. It's why i've emphasized culture change being vital to these ideas to potentially work.

Your second point is confusing though. I have not mentioned yet in this entire topic anything about rich people stealing, so i'm not sure how that relates to my second sentence which was entered on the attitude that many people have which is that winning is the top priority. As for the "one winner" comment the best example I can give is with sports, and in turn what is taught to millions of children (for this example ages up until puberty) through sports, and that is that there can only be one winner. You play to win. Win at all costs in may cases. If you don't win you lost. If you don't score you are slumping or not trying hard enough. Kids are taught these as values growing up and they contribute to idea that everything is a competition and that you can only succeed if you play to win. They grow up and then apply that same value to business in many ways and in turn teach it to their kids once they become adults.

I use this example because youth sports to me is a great example of how culture can change (in my personal opinion for the better) by making it less about individual achievement but more about collective enjoyment of sport. Same would go for life and business in my opinion after that. A person that is raised to fight and win, to beat the other person, to beat the other business, to see compromise and collaboration as weakness, to see someone less successful and associate their personal value as an American or even as a person to that to me that person is an example of a culture that is hostile to progress and togetherness.

Keep in mind I am not saying that there aren't lazy people or moochers on this planet and in this country, there are, but for many people raised in America if you aren't winning by a certain age or if you see not shot at winning then you have no shot at happiness or success and so what's the point? they give up. It's like how many people here view success and happiness as driving a Mercedes and getting that big title they've worked 20 years for, and that's normal in this country, would you agree? Whereas there are other people, admittedly me, that sees a Mercedes and a big title and it does nothing for me. On a personal note success and happiness to me is my little house, a great husband and cycling partner, my cuddly dog, morning coffee, cool co-workers, and weekly game night with friends. I work at my church and do interior design on the side and my husband has a small business as a carpenter. There are many people in this country that would look at us and wonder why we aren't trying to do more, to move up in our jobs, to grow our business, to get a bigger house, to have two cars instead of sharing our one because as a kid that's what you are taught in most households. Culture starts like that, and that's where it would need to start for the future in my opinion.

When a kid is raised to see something like healthcare as something that affects every American equally and that we are all part of the system and that our health isn't dependent on how much we win in life then you will see changes happen. Participating in our healthcare system through income taxes and sales taxes and so one will be viewed as an investment in our country's future as Americans and not as something that is to be thought of as having money taken from me to pay for slackers. We would be raised to believe that we are all in this together. Yes, I know that sounds naive on the surface, but culture takes time, and we got to our current system because of that too so it's not impossible.

In other words you use the educational system and youth sports to attack and destroy the culture funding both and you do it by turning their kids into your acolytes.
Could even Stalin have come up with a more devious plan?

No that's not what I am saying or implying. This is not a communistic plot. Capitalism does not require a person to be cruel, to be all about winning, to value title, money, and success above all things. When it comes to youth sports it should be about togetherness, sportsmanship, and most of all, fun. Just like sports, life and work should also share many of those traits. You don't rid yourself of ambition or even competitiveness, i'm not saying that, but having that success or even the fun be at the expense of someone else is a toxic aspect of culture in my opinion and it's a part of American culture in many way. You can train to win, you can study to do well, you can work hard to reach a goal, those are things that absolutely are human traits and create good things from, but it can't just be about you and the goal shouldn't be to never look behind you to help someone else move forward.

Im glad you enjoy puttering around your church and carpentry and all. But the necessary corollary is "and you pay for my healthcare so I can cuddle my dog and live the good old simple life". Nope. Pay for your own.

You rightly target culture though at least. Politics is the tool to hide the war on our culture and nation.

I'm not asking for you to pay for my healthcare while I cuddle with my dog. We all invest into the system and we all benefit from it.

Yeah I know what “invest” means. It means seize money from my paycheck to pay for your healthcare.
Answer a simple question. Why don’t you pay for your own?

I would be paying for my own, as would you, but the money that we are using to "pay" for it would go into the same system that regardless of your income or success would be for all of us. As I mentioned earlier in this thread that if the doctor, the business owner, the custodian, the pilot, the CEO, the entry level employee and so on are all paying into the same system then all would have a desire to see it succeed in my opinion.

/——/ Socialized medicine, a proven failure everywhere it’s been tried.

Another conservative lie to keep the status quo. Your for profit system just failed completely.

 

[DOTR]

We're already there... The top 5% of wage earners pay about 65% of ALL income tax.. The bottom 50% of wage earners pay next to nothing.. How much MORE "progressive" can you get???

Who Pays Income Taxes?

The new data shows that the top 1 percent of earners (with incomes over $515,371) paid nearly 39 percent of all income taxes, up slightly from the previous tax year’s 37 percent share. The amount of taxes paid in this percentile is nearly twice as much their adjusted gross income (AGI) load.

The top 10 percent of earners bore responsibility for 70 percent of all income taxes paid – up slightly from 2016 – while half of all tax filers paid 97 percent of all income tax revenue. Indicating the degree of progressivity in the code, the bottom 50 percent of earners took home 11 percent of total nationwide income while owing 3 percent of all income taxes.

Now -- if you're saying your saying the MIDDLE class need to contribute more (and even at 25% most of them WOULD be) -- you're probably right.. Because there's 30 times MORE of them than the 1% at the top and that makes a BIGGER difference than hiking taxes on the 1%....



In the chart above,

Yes I am saying that the middle class would need to contribute more. Upwards to 25% or so. Like I said above in my previous post, all people who earn an income would pay a flat tax rate along with an addition step/progressive tax % in addition to that based on the income bracket.

Well they'd pretty HAVE TO with all the free stuff you want to guarantee.. In even MODERATELY socialist countries the taxes on middle class, their middle class is carrying the BULK of the taxes.. Because of all the free stuff and benefits... Norway Sweden top rate is in the 50 to 60% range.. But the BIG DIFF is this.....

This chart shows WHERE that highest tax rate kicks in as a MULTIPLE of the "average income"... Folks in those moderate socialist countries get hit with the WORST BRACKET for being just 50% more than the average..

THAT better bring some REALLY REALLY REALLY good services to the middle class in return... Or there would be revolts.. Doesn't even cover their high VAT taxes..

But STILL -- you're not changing "the income gap"... Which is what you set out to do... You've just created monstrous, unfriendly, uncompassionate, one size fits all "programs" for healthcare for everyone.. But the POOR still are poor...

The only other country that I have experience living in and being part of it's culture is Norway. I can't adapt Norway's welfare state to the US exactly because of different variables but there are ways to utilize our collective wealth as a nation and create social programs that can benefit all citizens. It does work in Norway and people are generally very happy with the services for what they pay in taxation but again, the culture is different and the mindset is different which is another point I am trying to make here. We have the collective wealth generated in this country's capitalistic system to create social programs that are "free", but the American mindset is not one of doing what's best for all it's doing what's best for me, and that is the biggest barrier to any collective investment project in my opinion.

The people of Norway, and the people of this country are in no way the same. What works somewhere else won't nessesarily work here because of the people factor involved.

This country is in a constant state of class warfare, jealousy, idolization, greed, racism, reverse racism, lazyness, playing the system's, exploitation, exploiting the system's, hate, radicalism, extremism, lifestyles, spoiled rotteness, entitled etc.

It's amazing we can keep it together as good as we do really. If God was to turn his head away, we would be finished.

That's a big part of what I have been saying since my first post. For any real change to happen in this country it would take a very big culture and mindset change.

The 1st sentence there is what I just addressed... To fix poverty, you DO most of the time have to change the "individualism" of the afflicted... If you've EVER TRIED to help by coaching GED or working Head Start as I have, you'd understand that.. There needs to be a buy-in from the AFFLICTED individual to work towards better "work preparedness" so that they contribute MORE to society than they take.

The 2nd sentence is a very bad misconception.. Rich people haven't EVER stole anything from me.. Not Bill Gates, not Serena Williams, not my Supermarket chain.. WHO exactly is STEALING from you? Money is NOT LIMITED.. When the economy GROWS, more people benefit. It is NOT a fixed pie for 300 million people to fight over...

The largest employer in the country is SMALL BUSINESS.. That's your hair shop, your gym, your tire store or gas station.. Are THEY stealing from you??? They do what they can to pay fair wages according to the SKILLS of the workforce.. There are some waitresses making MORE than "average" American salaries for instance..

This concept that "there is only one winner" is some kind of bad indoctrination disease that you've gotten from somewhere. Businesses START every day to serve the public.,. And they only start because SOMEONE took the RISK to do that. You don't LIKE RISK... There's that word again.. And some have to fail.. But the WINNERS all have a history of being losers.. But most eventually hit on a good or service that makes them LOTS of money.

I agree about point #1. It's why i've emphasized culture change being vital to these ideas to potentially work.

Your second point is confusing though. I have not mentioned yet in this entire topic anything about rich people stealing, so i'm not sure how that relates to my second sentence which was entered on the attitude that many people have which is that winning is the top priority. As for the "one winner" comment the best example I can give is with sports, and in turn what is taught to millions of children (for this example ages up until puberty) through sports, and that is that there can only be one winner. You play to win. Win at all costs in may cases. If you don't win you lost. If you don't score you are slumping or not trying hard enough. Kids are taught these as values growing up and they contribute to idea that everything is a competition and that you can only succeed if you play to win. They grow up and then apply that same value to business in many ways and in turn teach it to their kids once they become adults.

I use this example because youth sports to me is a great example of how culture can change (in my personal opinion for the better) by making it less about individual achievement but more about collective enjoyment of sport. Same would go for life and business in my opinion after that. A person that is raised to fight and win, to beat the other person, to beat the other business, to see compromise and collaboration as weakness, to see someone less successful and associate their personal value as an American or even as a person to that to me that person is an example of a culture that is hostile to progress and togetherness.

Keep in mind I am not saying that there aren't lazy people or moochers on this planet and in this country, there are, but for many people raised in America if you aren't winning by a certain age or if you see not shot at winning then you have no shot at happiness or success and so what's the point? they give up. It's like how many people here view success and happiness as driving a Mercedes and getting that big title they've worked 20 years for, and that's normal in this country, would you agree? Whereas there are other people, admittedly me, that sees a Mercedes and a big title and it does nothing for me. On a personal note success and happiness to me is my little house, a great husband and cycling partner, my cuddly dog, morning coffee, cool co-workers, and weekly game night with friends. I work at my church and do interior design on the side and my husband has a small business as a carpenter. There are many people in this country that would look at us and wonder why we aren't trying to do more, to move up in our jobs, to grow our business, to get a bigger house, to have two cars instead of sharing our one because as a kid that's what you are taught in most households. Culture starts like that, and that's where it would need to start for the future in my opinion.

When a kid is raised to see something like healthcare as something that affects every American equally and that we are all part of the system and that our health isn't dependent on how much we win in life then you will see changes happen. Participating in our healthcare system through income taxes and sales taxes and so one will be viewed as an investment in our country's future as Americans and not as something that is to be thought of as having money taken from me to pay for slackers. We would be raised to believe that we are all in this together. Yes, I know that sounds naive on the surface, but culture takes time, and we got to our current system because of that too so it's not impossible.

In other words you use the educational system and youth sports to attack and destroy the culture funding both and you do it by turning their kids into your acolytes.
Could even Stalin have come up with a more devious plan?

No that's not what I am saying or implying. This is not a communistic plot. Capitalism does not require a person to be cruel, to be all about winning, to value title, money, and success above all things. When it comes to youth sports it should be about togetherness, sportsmanship, and most of all, fun. Just like sports, life and work should also share many of those traits. You don't rid yourself of ambition or even competitiveness, i'm not saying that, but having that success or even the fun be at the expense of someone else is a toxic aspect of culture in my opinion and it's a part of American culture in many way. You can train to win, you can study to do well, you can work hard to reach a goal, those are things that absolutely are human traits and create good things from, but it can't just be about you and the goal shouldn't be to never look behind you to help someone else move forward.

Im glad you enjoy puttering around your church and carpentry and all. But the necessary corollary is "and you pay for my healthcare so I can cuddle my dog and live the good old simple life". Nope. Pay for your own.

You rightly target culture though at least. Politics is the tool to hide the war on our culture and nation.

I'm not asking for you to pay for my healthcare while I cuddle with my dog. We all invest into the system and we all benefit from it.

Yeah I know what “invest” means. It means seize money from my paycheck to pay for your healthcare.
Answer a simple question. Why don’t you pay for your own?

I would be paying for my own, as would you, but the money that we are using to "pay" for it would go into the same system that regardless of your income or success would be for all of us. As I mentioned earlier in this thread that if the doctor, the business owner, the custodian, the pilot, the CEO, the entry level employee and so on are all paying into the same system then all would have a desire to see it succeed in my opinion.

Your every post is an exercise in redefining language. Ever notice that?

 

[g5000]

This is my first attempt at creating a thread and I wasn't sure if this belongs in Politics or not but since the topic hits on several political issues of today I think it's probably fitting. To be transparent and to make this known I am not advocating for communism or even socialism with this opinion, it's just some personal thoughts.

What i'm talking about is using capitalism, free trade, free markets and our collective wealth as a nation to create collective well-being by investing in our society. That investment (taxes) would yield benefits like "free" medical care, dental care, education, maternity/paternity leaves, pre-k, among other benefits and programs provided for all citizens while also reducing the uncertainty millions of American feel everyday around these topics, the risk that millions of Americans take everyday for these topics, the lack of mobility and the the anxiety and stress that millions of Americans are under because of these issues. Reduced stress, reduced fear, reduced individual risk, reduced inequity in turn yields increased happiness, increased hope, increased societal investment, and increased collective well-being. There is a lot of detail that would go into taxation and what constitutes as "free" but that's something i'm open to discussing as this evolves.

People will often view higher taxes as a burden, and will also view higher taxes that would go towards increased government provided programs as socialist, however, if all citizens and companies truly contribute towards these programs and social programs by using the wealth we all create then it should be viewed as an investment, not a burden in my opinion. You are investing in the collective well-being of all people, including yourself, and if we are all contributing, if we are all putting our money into the effort, if we are all sacrificing a greater percentage of our personal gain for the greater collective good then what you end up with is a shared system that in essence purchases quality of life. No system is perfect, but closing the gap, creating a society that views success as something to share and not hoard, and putting the good of the many above the individual is in my opinion something to work towards.

Through the courts and the legislature, the federal government's power and reach has been expanding since the 1930s.

You seem to think the government is not seizing enough of our "collective wealth" when the fact is federal revenues are the highest they have ever been.

More and more of our "collective wealth" has been seized and redistributed by the federal government. Worse, more and more money has been borrowed in order to fund the government. Money that is borrowed is future wealth which is brought forward. That's future wealth our children and grandchildren have had stolen from them.

This is why I lose my shit when I see assholes like Trump spending and borrowing more than anyone in the history of the Universe.

And yet today the infamous "income gap" is as wide as it was in the days of the robber barons in the late 19th century.

So what makes you think MORE government interference and more seizure of our wealth would improve the situation?

It always baffles me to see people demand more government takeover of their lives and then when that doesn't work they believe it is because we don't have enough government takeover in our lives.

As so many people have pointed out already, what you believe is good for the collective assumes the individual does not know what is best for themselves.

 

[g5000]

I'm telling you, folks, as I've been telling you since I arrived on this forum. Tax expenditures are the root of all the evils in our government.

That is the cause of the income inequality. That is the cause of corruption in government. That is the cause of the inability to uproot incumbents from their seats of power. That is the cause of the debt.

 

[Grace Is Stoked]

We're already there... The top 5% of wage earners pay about 65% of ALL income tax.. The bottom 50% of wage earners pay next to nothing.. How much MORE "progressive" can you get???

Who Pays Income Taxes?

The new data shows that the top 1 percent of earners (with incomes over $515,371) paid nearly 39 percent of all income taxes, up slightly from the previous tax year’s 37 percent share. The amount of taxes paid in this percentile is nearly twice as much their adjusted gross income (AGI) load.

The top 10 percent of earners bore responsibility for 70 percent of all income taxes paid – up slightly from 2016 – while half of all tax filers paid 97 percent of all income tax revenue. Indicating the degree of progressivity in the code, the bottom 50 percent of earners took home 11 percent of total nationwide income while owing 3 percent of all income taxes.

Now -- if you're saying your saying the MIDDLE class need to contribute more (and even at 25% most of them WOULD be) -- you're probably right.. Because there's 30 times MORE of them than the 1% at the top and that makes a BIGGER difference than hiking taxes on the 1%....



In the chart above,

Yes I am saying that the middle class would need to contribute more. Upwards to 25% or so. Like I said above in my previous post, all people who earn an income would pay a flat tax rate along with an addition step/progressive tax % in addition to that based on the income bracket.

Well they'd pretty HAVE TO with all the free stuff you want to guarantee.. In even MODERATELY socialist countries the taxes on middle class, their middle class is carrying the BULK of the taxes.. Because of all the free stuff and benefits... Norway Sweden top rate is in the 50 to 60% range.. But the BIG DIFF is this.....

This chart shows WHERE that highest tax rate kicks in as a MULTIPLE of the "average income"... Folks in those moderate socialist countries get hit with the WORST BRACKET for being just 50% more than the average..

THAT better bring some REALLY REALLY REALLY good services to the middle class in return... Or there would be revolts.. Doesn't even cover their high VAT taxes..

But STILL -- you're not changing "the income gap"... Which is what you set out to do... You've just created monstrous, unfriendly, uncompassionate, one size fits all "programs" for healthcare for everyone.. But the POOR still are poor...

The only other country that I have experience living in and being part of it's culture is Norway. I can't adapt Norway's welfare state to the US exactly because of different variables but there are ways to utilize our collective wealth as a nation and create social programs that can benefit all citizens. It does work in Norway and people are generally very happy with the services for what they pay in taxation but again, the culture is different and the mindset is different which is another point I am trying to make here. We have the collective wealth generated in this country's capitalistic system to create social programs that are "free", but the American mindset is not one of doing what's best for all it's doing what's best for me, and that is the biggest barrier to any collective investment project in my opinion.

The people of Norway, and the people of this country are in no way the same. What works somewhere else won't nessesarily work here because of the people factor involved.

This country is in a constant state of class warfare, jealousy, idolization, greed, racism, reverse racism, lazyness, playing the system's, exploitation, exploiting the system's, hate, radicalism, extremism, lifestyles, spoiled rotteness, entitled etc.

It's amazing we can keep it together as good as we do really. If God was to turn his head away, we would be finished.

That's a big part of what I have been saying since my first post. For any real change to happen in this country it would take a very big culture and mindset change.

The 1st sentence there is what I just addressed... To fix poverty, you DO most of the time have to change the "individualism" of the afflicted... If you've EVER TRIED to help by coaching GED or working Head Start as I have, you'd understand that.. There needs to be a buy-in from the AFFLICTED individual to work towards better "work preparedness" so that they contribute MORE to society than they take.

The 2nd sentence is a very bad misconception.. Rich people haven't EVER stole anything from me.. Not Bill Gates, not Serena Williams, not my Supermarket chain.. WHO exactly is STEALING from you? Money is NOT LIMITED.. When the economy GROWS, more people benefit. It is NOT a fixed pie for 300 million people to fight over...

The largest employer in the country is SMALL BUSINESS.. That's your hair shop, your gym, your tire store or gas station.. Are THEY stealing from you??? They do what they can to pay fair wages according to the SKILLS of the workforce.. There are some waitresses making MORE than "average" American salaries for instance..

This concept that "there is only one winner" is some kind of bad indoctrination disease that you've gotten from somewhere. Businesses START every day to serve the public.,. And they only start because SOMEONE took the RISK to do that. You don't LIKE RISK... There's that word again.. And some have to fail.. But the WINNERS all have a history of being losers.. But most eventually hit on a good or service that makes them LOTS of money.

I agree about point #1. It's why i've emphasized culture change being vital to these ideas to potentially work.

Your second point is confusing though. I have not mentioned yet in this entire topic anything about rich people stealing, so i'm not sure how that relates to my second sentence which was entered on the attitude that many people have which is that winning is the top priority. As for the "one winner" comment the best example I can give is with sports, and in turn what is taught to millions of children (for this example ages up until puberty) through sports, and that is that there can only be one winner. You play to win. Win at all costs in may cases. If you don't win you lost. If you don't score you are slumping or not trying hard enough. Kids are taught these as values growing up and they contribute to idea that everything is a competition and that you can only succeed if you play to win. They grow up and then apply that same value to business in many ways and in turn teach it to their kids once they become adults.

I use this example because youth sports to me is a great example of how culture can change (in my personal opinion for the better) by making it less about individual achievement but more about collective enjoyment of sport. Same would go for life and business in my opinion after that. A person that is raised to fight and win, to beat the other person, to beat the other business, to see compromise and collaboration as weakness, to see someone less successful and associate their personal value as an American or even as a person to that to me that person is an example of a culture that is hostile to progress and togetherness.

Keep in mind I am not saying that there aren't lazy people or moochers on this planet and in this country, there are, but for many people raised in America if you aren't winning by a certain age or if you see not shot at winning then you have no shot at happiness or success and so what's the point? they give up. It's like how many people here view success and happiness as driving a Mercedes and getting that big title they've worked 20 years for, and that's normal in this country, would you agree? Whereas there are other people, admittedly me, that sees a Mercedes and a big title and it does nothing for me. On a personal note success and happiness to me is my little house, a great husband and cycling partner, my cuddly dog, morning coffee, cool co-workers, and weekly game night with friends. I work at my church and do interior design on the side and my husband has a small business as a carpenter. There are many people in this country that would look at us and wonder why we aren't trying to do more, to move up in our jobs, to grow our business, to get a bigger house, to have two cars instead of sharing our one because as a kid that's what you are taught in most households. Culture starts like that, and that's where it would need to start for the future in my opinion.

When a kid is raised to see something like healthcare as something that affects every American equally and that we are all part of the system and that our health isn't dependent on how much we win in life then you will see changes happen. Participating in our healthcare system through income taxes and sales taxes and so one will be viewed as an investment in our country's future as Americans and not as something that is to be thought of as having money taken from me to pay for slackers. We would be raised to believe that we are all in this together. Yes, I know that sounds naive on the surface, but culture takes time, and we got to our current system because of that too so it's not impossible.

In other words you use the educational system and youth sports to attack and destroy the culture funding both and you do it by turning their kids into your acolytes.
Could even Stalin have come up with a more devious plan?

No that's not what I am saying or implying. This is not a communistic plot. Capitalism does not require a person to be cruel, to be all about winning, to value title, money, and success above all things. When it comes to youth sports it should be about togetherness, sportsmanship, and most of all, fun. Just like sports, life and work should also share many of those traits. You don't rid yourself of ambition or even competitiveness, i'm not saying that, but having that success or even the fun be at the expense of someone else is a toxic aspect of culture in my opinion and it's a part of American culture in many way. You can train to win, you can study to do well, you can work hard to reach a goal, those are things that absolutely are human traits and create good things from, but it can't just be about you and the goal shouldn't be to never look behind you to help someone else move forward.

Im glad you enjoy puttering around your church and carpentry and all. But the necessary corollary is "and you pay for my healthcare so I can cuddle my dog and live the good old simple life". Nope. Pay for your own.

You rightly target culture though at least. Politics is the tool to hide the war on our culture and nation.

I'm not asking for you to pay for my healthcare while I cuddle with my dog. We all invest into the system and we all benefit from it.

Yeah I know what “invest” means. It means seize money from my paycheck to pay for your healthcare.
Answer a simple question. Why don’t you pay for your own?

I would be paying for my own, as would you, but the money that we are using to "pay" for it would go into the same system that regardless of your income or success would be for all of us. As I mentioned earlier in this thread that if the doctor, the business owner, the custodian, the pilot, the CEO, the entry level employee and so on are all paying into the same system then all would have a desire to see it succeed in my opinion.

Your every post is an exercise in redefining language. Ever notice that?

What do you mean?

 

[DOTR]

We're already there... The top 5% of wage earners pay about 65% of ALL income tax.. The bottom 50% of wage earners pay next to nothing.. How much MORE "progressive" can you get???

Who Pays Income Taxes?

The new data shows that the top 1 percent of earners (with incomes over $515,371) paid nearly 39 percent of all income taxes, up slightly from the previous tax year’s 37 percent share. The amount of taxes paid in this percentile is nearly twice as much their adjusted gross income (AGI) load.

The top 10 percent of earners bore responsibility for 70 percent of all income taxes paid – up slightly from 2016 – while half of all tax filers paid 97 percent of all income tax revenue. Indicating the degree of progressivity in the code, the bottom 50 percent of earners took home 11 percent of total nationwide income while owing 3 percent of all income taxes.

Now -- if you're saying your saying the MIDDLE class need to contribute more (and even at 25% most of them WOULD be) -- you're probably right.. Because there's 30 times MORE of them than the 1% at the top and that makes a BIGGER difference than hiking taxes on the 1%....



In the chart above,

Yes I am saying that the middle class would need to contribute more. Upwards to 25% or so. Like I said above in my previous post, all people who earn an income would pay a flat tax rate along with an addition step/progressive tax % in addition to that based on the income bracket.

Well they'd pretty HAVE TO with all the free stuff you want to guarantee.. In even MODERATELY socialist countries the taxes on middle class, their middle class is carrying the BULK of the taxes.. Because of all the free stuff and benefits... Norway Sweden top rate is in the 50 to 60% range.. But the BIG DIFF is this.....

This chart shows WHERE that highest tax rate kicks in as a MULTIPLE of the "average income"... Folks in those moderate socialist countries get hit with the WORST BRACKET for being just 50% more than the average..

THAT better bring some REALLY REALLY REALLY good services to the middle class in return... Or there would be revolts.. Doesn't even cover their high VAT taxes..

But STILL -- you're not changing "the income gap"... Which is what you set out to do... You've just created monstrous, unfriendly, uncompassionate, one size fits all "programs" for healthcare for everyone.. But the POOR still are poor...

The only other country that I have experience living in and being part of it's culture is Norway. I can't adapt Norway's welfare state to the US exactly because of different variables but there are ways to utilize our collective wealth as a nation and create social programs that can benefit all citizens. It does work in Norway and people are generally very happy with the services for what they pay in taxation but again, the culture is different and the mindset is different which is another point I am trying to make here. We have the collective wealth generated in this country's capitalistic system to create social programs that are "free", but the American mindset is not one of doing what's best for all it's doing what's best for me, and that is the biggest barrier to any collective investment project in my opinion.

The people of Norway, and the people of this country are in no way the same. What works somewhere else won't nessesarily work here because of the people factor involved.

This country is in a constant state of class warfare, jealousy, idolization, greed, racism, reverse racism, lazyness, playing the system's, exploitation, exploiting the system's, hate, radicalism, extremism, lifestyles, spoiled rotteness, entitled etc.

It's amazing we can keep it together as good as we do really. If God was to turn his head away, we would be finished.

That's a big part of what I have been saying since my first post. For any real change to happen in this country it would take a very big culture and mindset change.

The 1st sentence there is what I just addressed... To fix poverty, you DO most of the time have to change the "individualism" of the afflicted... If you've EVER TRIED to help by coaching GED or working Head Start as I have, you'd understand that.. There needs to be a buy-in from the AFFLICTED individual to work towards better "work preparedness" so that they contribute MORE to society than they take.

The 2nd sentence is a very bad misconception.. Rich people haven't EVER stole anything from me.. Not Bill Gates, not Serena Williams, not my Supermarket chain.. WHO exactly is STEALING from you? Money is NOT LIMITED.. When the economy GROWS, more people benefit. It is NOT a fixed pie for 300 million people to fight over...

The largest employer in the country is SMALL BUSINESS.. That's your hair shop, your gym, your tire store or gas station.. Are THEY stealing from you??? They do what they can to pay fair wages according to the SKILLS of the workforce.. There are some waitresses making MORE than "average" American salaries for instance..

This concept that "there is only one winner" is some kind of bad indoctrination disease that you've gotten from somewhere. Businesses START every day to serve the public.,. And they only start because SOMEONE took the RISK to do that. You don't LIKE RISK... There's that word again.. And some have to fail.. But the WINNERS all have a history of being losers.. But most eventually hit on a good or service that makes them LOTS of money.

I agree about point #1. It's why i've emphasized culture change being vital to these ideas to potentially work.

Your second point is confusing though. I have not mentioned yet in this entire topic anything about rich people stealing, so i'm not sure how that relates to my second sentence which was entered on the attitude that many people have which is that winning is the top priority. As for the "one winner" comment the best example I can give is with sports, and in turn what is taught to millions of children (for this example ages up until puberty) through sports, and that is that there can only be one winner. You play to win. Win at all costs in may cases. If you don't win you lost. If you don't score you are slumping or not trying hard enough. Kids are taught these as values growing up and they contribute to idea that everything is a competition and that you can only succeed if you play to win. They grow up and then apply that same value to business in many ways and in turn teach it to their kids once they become adults.

I use this example because youth sports to me is a great example of how culture can change (in my personal opinion for the better) by making it less about individual achievement but more about collective enjoyment of sport. Same would go for life and business in my opinion after that. A person that is raised to fight and win, to beat the other person, to beat the other business, to see compromise and collaboration as weakness, to see someone less successful and associate their personal value as an American or even as a person to that to me that person is an example of a culture that is hostile to progress and togetherness.

Keep in mind I am not saying that there aren't lazy people or moochers on this planet and in this country, there are, but for many people raised in America if you aren't winning by a certain age or if you see not shot at winning then you have no shot at happiness or success and so what's the point? they give up. It's like how many people here view success and happiness as driving a Mercedes and getting that big title they've worked 20 years for, and that's normal in this country, would you agree? Whereas there are other people, admittedly me, that sees a Mercedes and a big title and it does nothing for me. On a personal note success and happiness to me is my little house, a great husband and cycling partner, my cuddly dog, morning coffee, cool co-workers, and weekly game night with friends. I work at my church and do interior design on the side and my husband has a small business as a carpenter. There are many people in this country that would look at us and wonder why we aren't trying to do more, to move up in our jobs, to grow our business, to get a bigger house, to have two cars instead of sharing our one because as a kid that's what you are taught in most households. Culture starts like that, and that's where it would need to start for the future in my opinion.

When a kid is raised to see something like healthcare as something that affects every American equally and that we are all part of the system and that our health isn't dependent on how much we win in life then you will see changes happen. Participating in our healthcare system through income taxes and sales taxes and so one will be viewed as an investment in our country's future as Americans and not as something that is to be thought of as having money taken from me to pay for slackers. We would be raised to believe that we are all in this together. Yes, I know that sounds naive on the surface, but culture takes time, and we got to our current system because of that too so it's not impossible.

In other words you use the educational system and youth sports to attack and destroy the culture funding both and you do it by turning their kids into your acolytes.
Could even Stalin have come up with a more devious plan?

No that's not what I am saying or implying. This is not a communistic plot. Capitalism does not require a person to be cruel, to be all about winning, to value title, money, and success above all things. When it comes to youth sports it should be about togetherness, sportsmanship, and most of all, fun. Just like sports, life and work should also share many of those traits. You don't rid yourself of ambition or even competitiveness, i'm not saying that, but having that success or even the fun be at the expense of someone else is a toxic aspect of culture in my opinion and it's a part of American culture in many way. You can train to win, you can study to do well, you can work hard to reach a goal, those are things that absolutely are human traits and create good things from, but it can't just be about you and the goal shouldn't be to never look behind you to help someone else move forward.

Im glad you enjoy puttering around your church and carpentry and all. But the necessary corollary is "and you pay for my healthcare so I can cuddle my dog and live the good old simple life". Nope. Pay for your own.

You rightly target culture though at least. Politics is the tool to hide the war on our culture and nation.

I'm not asking for you to pay for my healthcare while I cuddle with my dog. We all invest into the system and we all benefit from it.

Yeah I know what “invest” means. It means seize money from my paycheck to pay for your healthcare.
Answer a simple question. Why don’t you pay for your own?

I would be paying for my own, as would you, but the money that we are using to "pay" for it would go into the same system that regardless of your income or success would be for all of us. As I mentioned earlier in this thread that if the doctor, the business owner, the custodian, the pilot, the CEO, the entry level employee and so on are all paying into the same system then all would have a desire to see it succeed in my opinion.

Your every post is an exercise in redefining language. Ever notice that?

What do you mean?

I mean you were inculcated with it with your mothers milk and know no better.