Colorado baker told to bake that cake

[JoeB131]

How about this….if a couple walks in to his bakery and asks him to make a cake for a satanic themed wedding, using satanic symbols and phrases, is he required to bake that cake?

Why not?

I hear you. And agree. And whenever I hear wingnuts talk about "equity" or "class" they usually mean government decides who gets what (socialism). They certainly don't mean equal rights or freedom.

I have no use for "wingnuts", on either side of your stupid pissing match.

Yes, whine about "socialism". Here's why we need the government to redistribute wealth. Because when 60% of the population has less than 5% of the wealth, and the only thing between them and poverty is a social safety net, you are never more than a few years from a revolution.

Also, leftwingers are properly referred to as "Moonbats". Wing nuts are right wingers. Libertarians are children who are easily fooled by rich people.

Uh. Nope. Your fantasies are getting away from you. Libertarians aren't anarchists. But they won't tolerate the level of government power and intrusion that you seem to want.

Like I said, Children. Do you need your binky?

What the fuck is the right to "get" a service? What you really mean is that others should be forced to give them services, right?

We all voted on them. The majority won. That's the right to get a service. The thing about PA laws is that they DO protect everyone.

 

[Chillicothe]

The only difference between a straight wedding cake and a gay wedding cake is the two plastic people they put on top.

------------------------------------------------------------

We ran that play early in the thread. It was too confusing for the defense so they punted into 'hellfire-forever-for-the-baker' if he sold the cake with ---or without --- the two plastic blokes.

God, and his sidekick-du-jour, Marie Antoinette, are shaking their heads and exclaiming...."Let Them Eat Cake"!

Man o man, God(s) have gotta have an infinite amount of patience to put up with the knuckleheadism they see down here.

 

[dblack]

Yes, whine about "socialism".

Wow. The point just sails right over your head. I'm not whining about socialism. I'm pointing out that your horseshit stinks just as bad as theirs. So when you wonder why in holy fuck anyone would vote for a jackass like Trump, look in the mirror.

We all voted on them. The majority won. That's the right to get a service. The thing about PA laws is that they DO protect everyone.

The majority doesn't just get to decide anything and everything. That's the whole fucking point of the Constitution. The government is there to regulate the commons and protect individual liberty. It's not there to wage social engineering campaigns or otherwise arbitrarily force the will of the majority on the rest of us.

And that's not children rebelling. It's fundamental to the survival of a democracy. A democracy can't persist if the majority can inflict whatever the hell it wants on the minority. At some point, the minority will simply stop playing that game and become ungovernable.

 

[HeyNorm]

Having sex outside of marriage is a crime if religion had its way. Simply heating clams and depending on religion a pig is also. lol How fucked is that!

Not half as “fucked” as supporting someone who wants to cut his dick off.

 

[HeyNorm]

Having sex outside of marriage is a crime if religion had its way. Simply heating clams and depending on religion a pig is also. lol How fucked is that!

Now, think about what you said. Obergfell made it legal for folks who would not have sex together to marry.

Two straight guys could legally marry, and still chase skirt. And no sin, but since the baker does not make same sex wedding cakes……

Hey straight guys……

NO CAKE FOR YOU!

Strange world you deviants created, so deal with it.

 

[JoeB131]

Wow. The point just sails right over your head. I'm not whining about socialism. I'm pointing out that your horseshit stinks just as bad as theirs. So when you wonder why in holy fuck anyone would vote for a jackass like Trump, look in the mirror.

Uh, let's be straight here. Biden ran with the intent to be president. Trump ran with the intent to be president.

Dope Smoking Gary and Jorgenson ran with the intent to get just enough votes to get federal matching funds because they think government is too intrusive.

The major parties have given up on matching funds at this point because the restrict how much you can spend.

The majority doesn't just get to decide anything and everything. That's the whole fucking point of the Constitution. The government is there to regulate the commons and protect individual liberty. It's not there to wage social engineering campaigns or otherwise arbitrarily force the will of the majority on the rest of us.

quite the contrary, government is there to provide services and resolve disputes. There was a legitimate complaint between the gay couple and the cakeshop, and the law was pretty clearly on the side of the gay couple.

And that's not children rebelling. It's fundamental to the survival of a democracy. A democracy can't persist if the majority can inflict whatever the hell it wants on the minority. At some point, the minority will simply stop playing that game and become ungovernable.

Uh, no, not really. That's actually how democracy works. You make the argument, and if you lose, you lose.
Pouting like a bunch of children because you can't get your way isn't helpful.

 

[ThisIsMe]

Well, that simplifies things.

The cake ain't a problem, so......
.....so bake the thing, sell it to the couple, and then write a nasty letter to some LGBQ association.

After all, it ain't the cake that is the issue.

To write a nasty letter to an LGBTQ association would be rude and uncalled for.

 

[ThisIsMe]

Let's dissect this bit of stupidity.



Exactly my point. I can't unwilling sacrifice someone (or even willingly sacrifice someone) and you can't discriminate because you want to use religion to hide your homophobia. Sounds completely reasonable to me.




Again, not even a good comparison. First, no one brings their own animals to a butcher, the butcher has to decide which animals he buys from the slaughterhouse. Secondly, a halal butcher wouldn't have the skill set to properly prepare pork. He just wouldn't know how, he's probably never seen the inside of a pig before.

The only difference between a straight wedding cake and a gay wedding cake is the two plastic people they put on top.

Uh welcome to the real world, buddy. We all have to make compromises. I had to go years without punching that scumbag ex-boss in his face. Why? Compromises.

It's against the law for me to punch him out.
It's against the law for masterpiece cakeshop to discriminate against gays.

See how that works. WE HAVE LAWS FOR A REASON. And they protect everyone.



There's no constitutional right to be a bigot, and frankly, most churches are moving away from homophobia. Even Pope Francis called for laws against homosexuality to be repealed in parts of the world where it's still a crime. If your faith is defined by who you mindlessly hate, that's on you.


Not even close to the same thing, because there are actually special requirements needed to transport alcohol.




Then you should find something else to do for a living?


Not at all. We knew he was a homophobe the minute he refused a perfectly reasonable request.

I can't unwilling sacrifice someone (or even willingly sacrifice someone) and you can't discriminate because you want to use religion to hide your homophobia. Sounds completely reasonable to me.

You can’t unwillingly sacrifice someone because you don’t have a right to make them a part of your religion. What Phillips did wasn’t discrimination….once again, until we find evidence that he doesn’t sell to gay people in general, he just refused to do specific ceremonies.

First, no one brings their own animals to a butcher, the butcher has to decide which animals he buys from the slaughterhouse. Secondly, a halal butcher wouldn't have the skill set to properly prepare pork. He just wouldn't know how, he's probably never seen the inside of a pig before.

Ok, but there are butchers that do at home work, but fine, forget the butcher, use any food based preparation service that is open for public service and is halal. The point remains the same.

The only difference between a straight wedding cake and a gay wedding cake is the two plastic people they put on top.

Again…..it’s not about the cake….it’s about the ceremony they want him to specifically bake it for.

Uh welcome to the real world, buddy. We all have to make compromises. I had to go years without punching that scumbag ex-boss in his face. Why? Compromises.

Where does it say you must compromise your values and your cotus protected rights? Also, if compromise is the name of the game, then shouldn’t the gay couple also compromise?

It's against the law for me to punch him out.
It's against the law for masterpiece cakeshop to discriminate against gays.

See how that works. WE HAVE LAWS FOR A REASON. And they protect everyone.

He wasn’t discriminating though. Again, as I asked before, if a couple asked him to bake cakes for a satanic themed wedding, is a Christian baker required to make them?

We do have laws that protects people, and we also have a constitution that protects people.

There's no constitutional right to be a bigot, and frankly, most churches are moving away from homophobia. Even Pope Francis called for laws against homosexuality to be repealed in parts of the world where it's still a crime. If your faith is defined by who you mindlessly hate, that's on you.

Who’s being a bigot? Once again, can you provide any proof that Phillips hates gay people? You do realize it’s possible for soemone to not agree with something someone does, but still be friends with them, or even like them, right? All the opponents of religious freedom automatically jump to “it’s hate”, when it may not be the case. He just simply doesn’t agree with gay marriage, and feels it’s against his religion, and therefore against his religion to work in service of it.

Not even close to the same thing, because there are actually special requirements needed to transport alcohol.

I can see you are going to just get bogged down in the minutiae here rather than seeing the greater point, so fine, just substitute any Muslim owned business being asked to perform any service that violates their religion. So, if I ask them to haul loads of pork products.

Not at all. We knew he was a homophobe the minute he refused a perfectly reasonable request.

No, you didn’t , because you have no proof that he hates gays, once again, if he hates gays, it should be easy to find instances throughout his career if him refusing service to every gay person who has walked through his door.

As I’ve said before, you are the one being intolerant here as you seem to be able to find no room for religious freedom, other than your belief that one’s religious freedom should be practiced in private and should not affect anyone outside of themselves, right? Everyone should just adhere to the principles you, and others, believe, and if they themselves have no religious views, then everyone should be forced to comply with their view of the world…does that sound about right?

 

[ThisIsMe]

------------------------------------------------------------

We ran that play early in the thread. It was too confusing for the defense so they punted into 'hellfire-forever-for-the-baker' if he sold the cake with ---or without --- the two plastic blokes.

God, and his sidekick-du-jour, Marie Antoinette, are shaking their heads and exclaiming...."Let Them Eat Cake"!

Man o man, God(s) have gotta have an infinite amount of patience to put up with the knuckleheadism they see down here.

Because it’s not about the cake…

 

[ThisIsMe]

Why not?



Yes, whine about "socialism". Here's why we need the government to redistribute wealth. Because when 60% of the population has less than 5% of the wealth, and the only thing between them and poverty is a social safety net, you are never more than a few years from a revolution.

Also, leftwingers are properly referred to as "Moonbats". Wing nuts are right wingers. Libertarians are children who are easily fooled by rich people.



Like I said, Children. Do you need your binky?



We all voted on them. The majority won. That's the right to get a service. The thing about PA laws is that they DO protect everyone.

Why not?

You and I both know that if that ever happened, nobody would fault Phillips for refusing, and even more, it probably wouldn’t have even made the news….

 

[Chillicothe]

Because it’s not about the cake…

Cool x2!

If it ain't about the cake.....then bake it. And sell it.

You are over-thinking this gig. Bake it. Sell it. It's not about the cake. Duh!

 

[dblack]

Uh, let's be straight here. Biden ran with the intent to be president. Trump ran with the intent to be president.

Dope Smoking Gary and Jorgenson ran with the intent to get just enough votes to get federal matching funds because they think government is too intrusive.

The major parties have given up on matching funds at this point because the restrict how much you can spend.

??? just random slurs for fun?

quite the contrary, government is there to provide services and resolve disputes.

None other than those described in the Constitution. It's not your all purpose tool to force your will on others

Uh, no, not really. That's actually how democracy works.

That's how you want it to work - but it won't. And it's not. That's why we're in a downhill spiral. I

 

[JoeB131]

So much work to justify bigotry....

You can’t unwillingly sacrifice someone because you don’t have a right to make them a part of your religion. What Phillips did wasn’t discrimination….once again, until we find evidence that he doesn’t sell to gay people in general, he just refused to do specific ceremonies.

So if he has a right to be a bigot and break Public Accommodation laws, then I have a right to ignore murder laws and sacrifice people to Quetzalcoatl.

So let's be clear. If he was saying, "I'm not going to serve gays because I hate the gay stuff, has nothing to do with religion."

Ok, but there are butchers that do at home work, but fine, forget the butcher, use any food based preparation service that is open for public service and is halal. The point remains the same.

Not much of one. Halal is a very specific set of rules for food preparation. Compared to wedding cakes, which appear NOWHERE in the Bible and are in fact a Roman Pagan fertility right.

Again…..it’s not about the cake….it’s about the ceremony they want him to specifically bake it for.

Except the cake isn't used in the ceremony, it's used in the reception.

Where does it say you must compromise your values and your cotus protected rights? Also, if compromise is the name of the game, then shouldn’t the gay couple also compromise?

His business doesn't have a COTUS set of rights. It's a business, not a person.

He wasn’t discriminating though. Again, as I asked before, if a couple asked him to bake cakes for a satanic themed wedding, is a Christian baker required to make them?

We do have laws that protects people, and we also have a constitution that protects people.

Why not?
Frankly, he's already baking a PAGAN cake.

Who’s being a bigot? Once again, can you provide any proof that Phillips hates gay people? You do realize it’s possible for soemone to not agree with something someone does, but still be friends with them, or even like them, right?

Okay, here's my evidence... that he is going though this much trouble to deny gay people services. That he's trying very hard to strike down sensible laws protecting them.

I mean, I really, really hate Mormons, but I wouldn't deny them service and wouldn't spend millions trying to best them in court.

All the opponents of religious freedom automatically jump to “it’s hate”, when it may not be the case. He just simply doesn’t agree with gay marriage, and feels it’s against his religion, and therefore against his religion to work in service of it.

Right, he's a hateful bigot.

I can see you are going to just get bogged down in the minutiae here rather than seeing the greater point, so fine, just substitute any Muslim owned business being asked to perform any service that violates their religion. So, if I ask them to haul loads of pork products.

I think it was a case by case basis. In this case, the trucker needs special permits to haul alcohol. Please let me know if you can find another contrived scenario for your Islamophobia.

No, you didn’t , because you have no proof that he hates gays, once again, if he hates gays, it should be easy to find instances throughout his career if him refusing service to every gay person who has walked through his door.

He spent hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to deny dignity and services to gay people. That's a lot of hate. Shit, I wouldn't go through that much trouble to not take someone's money.

As I’ve said before, you are the one being intolerant here as you seem to be able to find no room for religious freedom, other than your belief that one’s religious freedom should be practiced in private and should not affect anyone outside of themselves, right? Everyone should just adhere to the principles you, and others, believe, and if they themselves have no religious views, then everyone should be forced to comply with their view of the world…does that sound about right?

I have plenty of room for you to practice your bronze age superstitions. You can practice them in your homes and houses of worship to your hearts content.

Once you put out a shingle offering certain services, your business, which is a legal entity, has absolutely no "freedom of religion" because businesses aren't people and don't have an irrational fear of death and a need to give up their decisions to moralistic nitwits.

 

[JoeB131]

??? just random slurs for fun?

Naw, not random at all. Gary Johnson promised us he wouldn't get high on weed while he was in the white house.

None other than those described in the Constitution. It's not your all purpose tool to force your will on others

Uh, yeah, so by that logic, since the Constitution had no idea of an automatic weapon, then the Second Amendment only applies to breach loaded muskets. The First Amendment freedom of the press should only apply to moveable type presses, as they had no idea about radio, television or god help us, the Internet.

That's how you want it to work - but it won't. And it's not. That's why we're in a downhill spiral. I

Oh, fuck off.
I would be living now than any other time in history.
We've never had it so good.

 

[dblack]

Naw, not random at all. Gary Johnson promised us he wouldn't get high on weed while he was in the white house.

Has exactly nothing to do with the topic. Just your deep resentment for libertarians. Which I get. Liberty clearly isn't your jam.

Uh, yeah, so by that logic, since the Constitution had no idea of an automatic weapon, then the Second Amendment only applies to breach loaded muskets. The First Amendment freedom of the press should only apply to moveable type presses, as they had no idea about radio, television or god help us, the Internet.

??? That's incoherent even by your standards.

Oh, fuck off.
I would be living now than any other time in history.
We've never had it so good.

Trumpsters aren't going away. The problem is getting worse, not better.

 

[JoeB131]

Has exactly nothing to do with the topic. Just your deep resentment for libertarians. Which I get. Liberty clearly isn't your jam.

No, I just don't think we need to leave the running of the country to Children who smoke dope.

??? That's incoherent even by your standards.

I realize you are a bit slow, but if you only want to limit yourself to the thinking of 18th century slave rapists on the role of government, that's what you need to do. Then go bleed yourself after taking mercury as medicine like they did.

Trumpsters aren't going away. The problem is getting worse, not better.

Uh, nothing to do with my point, but never mind.

Trump was never the disease, he was the nasty rash it broke out in.

 

[dblack]

No, I just don't think we need to leave the running of the country to Children who smoke dope.

Uh, nothing to do with my point, but never mind.

Your point ("libertarians are bad, mkay") has nothing to do with the topic, but you keep wanking.

Trump was never the disease, he was the nasty rash it broke out in.

Indeed. The disease is Democratic we-know-betterism. It has half the country so fed up they're ready to go with whack job populists to avoid it.

 

[ThisIsMe]

Cool x2!

If it ain't about the cake.....then bake it. And sell it.

You are over-thinking this gig. Bake it. Sell it. It's not about the cake. Duh!

Because it’s about the reason for the cake.

 

[ThisIsMe]

So much work to justify bigotry....



So if he has a right to be a bigot and break Public Accommodation laws, then I have a right to ignore murder laws and sacrifice people to Quetzalcoatl.

So let's be clear. If he was saying, "I'm not going to serve gays because I hate the gay stuff, has nothing to do with religion."



Not much of one. Halal is a very specific set of rules for food preparation. Compared to wedding cakes, which appear NOWHERE in the Bible and are in fact a Roman Pagan fertility right.


Except the cake isn't used in the ceremony, it's used in the reception.




His business doesn't have a COTUS set of rights. It's a business, not a person.


Why not?
Frankly, he's already baking a PAGAN cake.




Okay, here's my evidence... that he is going though this much trouble to deny gay people services. That he's trying very hard to strike down sensible laws protecting them.

I mean, I really, really hate Mormons, but I wouldn't deny them service and wouldn't spend millions trying to best them in court.


Right, he's a hateful bigot.


I think it was a case by case basis. In this case, the trucker needs special permits to haul alcohol. Please let me know if you can find another contrived scenario for your Islamophobia.


He spent hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to deny dignity and services to gay people. That's a lot of hate. Shit, I wouldn't go through that much trouble to not take someone's money.



I have plenty of room for you to practice your bronze age superstitions. You can practice them in your homes and houses of worship to your hearts content.

Once you put out a shingle offering certain services, your business, which is a legal entity, has absolutely no "freedom of religion" because businesses aren't people and don't have an irrational fear of death and a need to give up their decisions to moralistic nitwits.

It’s not bigotry to adhere to your religious beliefs. Have you ever heard Phillips say that he hates gay people? Ever? He believes gay marriage is a sin and therefore he cannot be a part of that sin by lending his talents to help someone else commit a sin. The left can’t seem to get past the idea that if someone refuses a gay person, it must be hate….not everything is about hate, and not everyone hates gay people…

So if he has a right to be a bigot and break Public Accommodation laws, then I have a right to ignore murder laws and sacrifice people to Quetzalcoatl.

He didn’t break PA laws, he exercised his cotus rights. I’m sorry, no law can force you to give up you cotus protected freedoms.

And no, you still can’t sacrifice people, unless they grant you the right to do so. You can’t force someone else to participate in your religion.

If he was saying, "I'm not going to serve gays because I hate the gay stuff, has nothing to do with religion."

If he said that, then I’d be more inclined to agree, but he didn’t say that.

Not much of one. Halal is a very specific set of rules for food preparation. Compared to wedding cakes, which appear NOWHERE in the Bible and are in fact a Roman Pagan fertility right.

It doesn’t matter, your trying to make a point that PA laws supersede religious freedoms, so that means I should be able to walk into any business and force them to violate their religious beliefs, right?

And once again, this whole thing is not about a cake….it’s about Phillips feeling that him doing a service specifically for a gay wedding would be akin to him helping someone else commit a sin, just like the Muslim truckers wouldn’t haul alcohol because Islam believes that them transporting alcohol is helping someone else commit a sin.

Except the cake isn't used in the ceremony, it's used in the reception.

Which is still a part of the celebration.

Except the cake isn't used in the ceremony, it's used in the reception.

And his business offered to sell them any cake he had already made, but he himself would not use his labor to work for a gay wedding.

Why not?
Frankly, he's already baking a PAGAN cake.

So, where does it say you can’t have a cake for your wedding, and nobody would expect him to do a satanic wedding.

Okay, here's my evidence... that he is going though this much trouble to deny gay people services. That he's trying very hard to strike down sensible laws protecting them.

I mean, I really, really hate Mormons, but I wouldn't deny them service and wouldn't spend millions trying to best them in court.

He is only going through this trouble because people keep suing him. What, you think he’s just supposed to give up trying to defend his constitutional rights??

He is also not denying gay people for being gay, he already stated he would do business with them, just not do specific labor for a gay wedding..

Good, I would hope you wouldn’t deny them, cause as far as I’m aware, the Bible doesn’t preach against Mormons. Also, why do you hate them?

Right, he's a hateful bigot.

No, not at all, he’s just observing his faith. Also, prove that he did anything out of hate….again, the left is fixated on this idea that if you deny a gay person, that it has to be hate, so, I ask again, prove it was hate, show me his history of hateful rhetoric towards gay people, show me anywhere where he said he won’t serve gay people because he hates them.

I think it was a case by case basis. In this case, the trucker needs special permits to haul alcohol. Please let me know if you can find another contrived scenario for your Islamophobia.

I already said take any other business…and it’s not contrived, it to make a point.

What Islamophobia? At what point have I said anything against Muslims. What, because I bring them up as an example of how people wouldn’t expect them to surrender their religious rights, but they do for Christian’s? This is one of the major problems with the left, that if you disagree with them on something, they immediately start throwing out baseless accusations

You’ve also called me homophobic…based on what evidence? Because I’m defending someone who’s being attacked for their religious rights? I personally don’t care who someone dates and marries, I just can’t stand the lefts barrage of attacks against someone just because they ruffled their feathers, which is what you all do…piss off a leftist…and they try to ruin you…and you all call yourselves the party of tolerance…only if they agree to all your demands…

He spent hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to deny dignity and services to gay people. That's a lot of hate. Shit, I wouldn't go through that much trouble to not take someone's money.

No, he spent hundreds of thousands of dollars defending his cotus rights from leftist attacks and court cases…something he should not have to do. The fact that he IS spending that money should tell you how convicted he is to his religious rights. If this was only about hate against gay people, he would have given in long ago, rather than spend all this money, if it wasn’t about religious freedom and only about hate.

I mean, like you said, who would go through that much trouble, spend all that money, if this was just about hatred, I mean, if he had no religious conviction, why spend a hundred grand in defense, when you could just do the service and save that money..especially since, as of yet, we have no evidence that he ever refused gay people for any other reason before…

You can practice them in your homes and houses of worship to your hearts content.

Ahh, so if you’re religious, just keep your cotus protected rights behind closed doors….ok then…then maybe gay people should also keep their rights behind closed doors..I mean, why can a gay person be gay openly, but a religious person has to be religious silently?

Once you put out a shingle offering certain services, your business, which is a legal entity, has absolutely no "freedom of religion" because businesses aren't people and don't have an irrational fear of death and a need to give up their decisions to moralistic nitwits.

Incorrect, starting a business doesn’t mean you have to give up your rights, his business offered to sell cakes to gay people, he’ll, I think he even eluded to the fact that he would even bake cakes for gay people..for birthdays and other stuff, just not for weddings. In either case, his business said it will do business with gay people, but he himself, cannot be forced to give up his cotus rights, no matter what law, or what business he operates.

Look, just admit, you hate Christian’s, and you think religious freedom is wrong, as you’ve stated several times, “the superstitious…” whatever….you don’t believe in other peoples rights, just your own. You don’t think people who disagree with your world view are deserving of rights…just bow down to your whims, because nobody else’s rights matter …

Fortunately, our founding fathers saw it differently.

 

[Chillicothe]

Because it’s about the reason for the cake.

The reason for the cake is for the ancient cultural celebration...... a wedding.
A marriage of two like minded souls who wish to dedicate their lives to each other....to the concept of 'together'.
And 'wedding cakes' have long been part of that celebration.