Confederate Flag vs. Ground Zero Mosque?

[bigrebnc1775]

Identified how, why and by whom? That's the question, in both cases.

Symbols are in the mind of the beholder, they have no inherent meaning beyond what we choose to assign to them. The only real difference I see between the two and what people choose to believe they symbolize is the bias of the people viewing them.

Of course people who associate the Confederacy with the fight for slavery will see its battle flag as a racist symbol. Isn't that what it flew to defend? I realize it's not that simple, but it's the association that matters. And of course those who blame all of Islam for 9/11 will see a mosque, any mosque let alone one a few blocks from the site we consider so sacred it's still just a muddy hole in the ground, as a symbol of jihad and a thumbed nose in our general direction. The fact that Muslims live and work in the area and need a place to worship is quite irrelevant.

It's natural confirmation bias. No matter what anybody does someone, somewhere will see it the way they want to see it and get butthurt over it. That's human nature. *shrug*

Now the interesting question to me is the public v. private property distinction. But that's getting away from whether it's subjectively "insensitive".

Of course people who associate the Confederacy with the fight for slavery will see its battle flag as a racist symbol. Isn't that what it flew to defend?

Not if you actually asked the men who fought for the south, that was not their reason nor was freeing the slaves the reason the men of the north chose to fight. But if you ask most anyone in the late 20th century yes it was the reason. However if you look at klan photos from the mid 20th century. look at the flag they carried.

There are many more photos with the kkk carring the stars and stripes long before they stole the Confederate battle flag.

 

[goldcatt]

Identified how, why and by whom? That's the question, in both cases.

Symbols are in the mind of the beholder, they have no inherent meaning beyond what we choose to assign to them. The only real difference I see between the two and what people choose to believe they symbolize is the bias of the people viewing them.

Of course people who associate the Confederacy with the fight for slavery will see its battle flag as a racist symbol. Isn't that what it flew to defend? I realize it's not that simple, but it's the association that matters. And of course those who blame all of Islam for 9/11 will see a mosque, any mosque let alone one a few blocks from the site we consider so sacred it's still just a muddy hole in the ground, as a symbol of jihad and a thumbed nose in our general direction. The fact that Muslims live and work in the area and need a place to worship is quite irrelevant.

It's natural confirmation bias. No matter what anybody does someone, somewhere will see it the way they want to see it and get butthurt over it. That's human nature. *shrug*

Now the interesting question to me is the public v. private property distinction. But that's getting away from whether it's subjectively "insensitive".

Of course people who associate the Confederacy with the fight for slavery will see its battle flag as a racist symbol. Isn't that what it flew to defend?

Not if you actually asked the men who fought for the south, that was not their reason nor was freeing the slaves the reason the men of the north chose to fight. But if you ask most anyone in the late 20th century yes it was the reason. However if you look at klan photos from the mid 20th century. look at the flag they carried.

There are many more photos with the kkk carring the stars and stripes long before they stole the Confederate battle flag.

You cut out the point there. It's the association that matters.

Yes, I've lived in the South and understand that for the vast majority who fly it or support it being flown it has nothing to do with racism. Just like the so-called GZ mosque is not the modern equivalent of an arch of triumph slash terrorist training camp to the people who will actually be using it. But symbolism is all about perception, not reality.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Identified how, why and by whom? That's the question, in both cases.

Symbols are in the mind of the beholder, they have no inherent meaning beyond what we choose to assign to them. The only real difference I see between the two and what people choose to believe they symbolize is the bias of the people viewing them.

Of course people who associate the Confederacy with the fight for slavery will see its battle flag as a racist symbol. Isn't that what it flew to defend? I realize it's not that simple, but it's the association that matters. And of course those who blame all of Islam for 9/11 will see a mosque, any mosque let alone one a few blocks from the site we consider so sacred it's still just a muddy hole in the ground, as a symbol of jihad and a thumbed nose in our general direction. The fact that Muslims live and work in the area and need a place to worship is quite irrelevant.

It's natural confirmation bias. No matter what anybody does someone, somewhere will see it the way they want to see it and get butthurt over it. That's human nature. *shrug*

Now the interesting question to me is the public v. private property distinction. But that's getting away from whether it's subjectively "insensitive".

Of course people who associate the Confederacy with the fight for slavery will see its battle flag as a racist symbol. Isn't that what it flew to defend?

Not if you actually asked the men who fought for the south, that was not their reason nor was freeing the slaves the reason the men of the north chose to fight. But if you ask most anyone in the late 20th century yes it was the reason. However if you look at klan photos from the mid 20th century. look at the flag they carried.

There are many more photos with the kkk carring the stars and stripes long before they stole the Confederate battle flag.

You cut out the point there. It's the association that matters.

Yes, I've lived in the South and understand that for the vast majority who fly it or support it being flown it has nothing to do with racism. Just like the so-called GZ mosque is not the modern equivalent of an arch of triumph slash terrorist training camp to the people who will actually be using it. But symbolism is all about perception, not reality.

Sorry I did not cut out the association if it was association then both flags would be associated with racism. The kkk carried both flags from the early 20th century until the mid 20th century they carried the stars and stripes. Then the kkk stole the Confederate battle flag after the centennial anniversary of the American civil war.

 

[goldcatt]

You cut out the point there. It's the association that matters.

Yes, I've lived in the South and understand that for the vast majority who fly it or support it being flown it has nothing to do with racism. Just like the so-called GZ mosque is not the modern equivalent of an arch of triumph slash terrorist training camp to the people who will actually be using it. But symbolism is all about perception, not reality.

Sorry I did not cut out the association if it was association then both flags would be associated with racism. The kkk carried both flags from the early 2th century until the mid 20th century they carried the stars and stripes. Then the kkk stole the Confederate battle flag after the centennial anniversary of the American civil war.

You're assuming three things there. First, that assigning value to a symbol is a rational rather than an emotional process. Second, that confirmation bias doesn't exist. Third, that both the individual and collective meanings of symbols are fixed through time.

 

[editec]

Sanctimonious blather alert! ​

You said "fuck". Funny, I never heard a real christian utter that word. Please, continue.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

You cut out the point there. It's the association that matters.

Yes, I've lived in the South and understand that for the vast majority who fly it or support it being flown it has nothing to do with racism. Just like the so-called GZ mosque is not the modern equivalent of an arch of triumph slash terrorist training camp to the people who will actually be using it. But symbolism is all about perception, not reality.

Sorry I did not cut out the association if it was association then both flags would be associated with racism. The kkk carried both flags from the early 2th century until the mid 20th century they carried the stars and stripes. Then the kkk stole the Confederate battle flag after the centennial anniversary of the American civil war.

You're assuming three things there. First, that assigning value to a symbol is a rational rather than an emotional process. Second, that confirmation bias doesn't exist. Third, that both the individual and collective meanings of symbols are fixed through time.

Truth and facts never assume.
Did the kkk carry the stars and stripes as their banner in the early 20th century?
Did the kkk carry the Confedrate battle flag in the early 20th century?

True the Confederat battle flag is an emotional banner for some Southerners, those who look at it emotionaly are aware they have a ancestor who fought and died for that Flag. I'm one of those who have ancestor's who died during that war. One of my Great Great Grand father's is burried at elamria prison. I have two that were burried where the army had stoped after a forced march along the roadside in Northern VA. I have three that made it home missing a leg or arm. I have three great great uncles who died and some who lived. so hell yell it's emotional for me. They fought for a flag and their country which with them had nothing to do with slaves, they hated slavery they didn't own slaves.

Second, that confirmation bias doesn't exist.

It exists because people have been taught a false history.

Third, that both the individual and collective meanings of symbols are fixed through time

And pictures never lie, they are the glue that holds truth in history.

 

[Ravi]

I imagine a lot of people fly the rebel flag as a sort of rah rah our team football mentality.

That doesn't detract from the fact that it symbolizes treachery and failure.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I imagine a lot of people fly the rebel flag as a sort of rah rah our team football mentality.

That doesn't detract from the fact that it symbolizes treachery and failure.

Only in your mind does it symbolize treachery. If it was true then Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis and all Confedrate Government leadership would have been hung upon capture.

 

[goldcatt]

Sorry I did not cut out the association if it was association then both flags would be associated with racism. The kkk carried both flags from the early 2th century until the mid 20th century they carried the stars and stripes. Then the kkk stole the Confederate battle flag after the centennial anniversary of the American civil war.

You're assuming three things there. First, that assigning value to a symbol is a rational rather than an emotional process. Second, that confirmation bias doesn't exist. Third, that both the individual and collective meanings of symbols are fixed through time.

Truth and facts never assume.
Did the kkk carry the stars and stripes as their banner in the early 20th century?
Did the kkk carry the Confedrate battle flag in the early 20th century?

True the Confederat battle flag is an emotional banner for some Southerners, those who look at it emotionaly are aware they have a ancestor who fought and died for that Flag. I'm one of those who have ancestor's who died during that war. One of my Great Great Grand father's is burried at elamria prison. I have two that were burried where the army had stoped after a forced march along the roadside in Northern VA. I have three that made it home missing a leg or arm. I have three great great uncles who died and some who lived. so hell yell it's emotional for me. They fought for a flag and their country which with them had nothing to do with slaves, they hated slavery they didn't own slaves.

Second, that confirmation bias doesn't exist.

It exists because people have been taught a false history.

Third, that both the individual and collective meanings of symbols are fixed through time

And pictures never lie, they are the glue that holds truth in history.

So you assign a meaning, an association, to that symbol based on your own emotion, experience and bias. You assign value and priority to the facts surrounding its history and use based on your emotion, experience and bias. Those who disagree with you are going through that exact same process, but have a different experience, emotion and bias and therefore come up with a different result.

Every human is biased.

My own visceral reaction is also biased, I'm just self-aware enough to understand and admit it. On this particular issue anyway. That's no guarantee on anything else.

 

[Ravi]

I imagine a lot of people fly the rebel flag as a sort of rah rah our team football mentality.

That doesn't detract from the fact that it symbolizes treachery and failure.

Only in your mind does it symbolize treachery. If it was true then Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis and all Confedrate Government leadership would have been hung upon capture.

No...that would have just prolonged the misery the country was going through and fostered more bad feelings.

For the same reason no one ever seriously considered charging Bush with war crimes.

 

[goldcatt]

I imagine a lot of people fly the rebel flag as a sort of rah rah our team football mentality.

That doesn't detract from the fact that it symbolizes treachery and failure.

Yeah, I've seen a lot of the rah rah team thing. Some also do it out of respect for ancestors who fought, some in support of the political idea of states' rights it symbolizes to them or the romanticized version of "Southern heritage" it represents in that whole Gone With the Wind way. Most aren't flying it as a statement that they want to go back to Jim Crow or slavery.

Of course those whose ancestors fought for the Union against those they considered traitors and rebels, or those whose ancestors suffered at the hands of slaveholders which were part of the reason for the CSA, have different reactions when they see it. Which is also completely understandable.

In reality, it's just a piece of cloth.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

You're assuming three things there. First, that assigning value to a symbol is a rational rather than an emotional process. Second, that confirmation bias doesn't exist. Third, that both the individual and collective meanings of symbols are fixed through time.

Truth and facts never assume.
Did the kkk carry the stars and stripes as their banner in the early 20th century?
Did the kkk carry the Confedrate battle flag in the early 20th century?

True the Confederat battle flag is an emotional banner for some Southerners, those who look at it emotionaly are aware they have a ancestor who fought and died for that Flag. I'm one of those who have ancestor's who died during that war. One of my Great Great Grand father's is burried at elamria prison. I have two that were burried where the army had stoped after a forced march along the roadside in Northern VA. I have three that made it home missing a leg or arm. I have three great great uncles who died and some who lived. so hell yell it's emotional for me. They fought for a flag and their country which with them had nothing to do with slaves, they hated slavery they didn't own slaves.



It exists because people have been taught a false history.

Third, that both the individual and collective meanings of symbols are fixed through time

And pictures never lie, they are the glue that holds truth in history.

So you assign a meaning, an association, to that symbol based on your own emotion, experience and bias. You assign value and priority to the facts surrounding its history and use based on your emotion, experience and bias. Those who disagree with you are going through that exact same process, but have a different experience, emotion and bias and therefore come up with a different result.

Every human is biased.

My own visceral reaction is also biased, I'm just self-aware enough to understand and admit it. On this particular issue anyway. That's no guarantee on anything else.

You assign value and priority to the facts surrounding its history and use based on your emotion, experience and bias.

First what is your preception of it's history? I have given you my researched version of the flag, men and the war. It's emotional for me but my emotions do not guide or blind my search for truth and facts.

 

[Ravi]

I imagine a lot of people fly the rebel flag as a sort of rah rah our team football mentality.

That doesn't detract from the fact that it symbolizes treachery and failure.

Yeah, I've seen a lot of the rah rah team thing. Some also do it out of respect for ancestors who fought, some in support of the political idea of states' rights it symbolizes to them or the romanticized version of "Southern heritage" it represents in that whole Gone With the Wind way. Most aren't flying it as a statement that they want to go back to Jim Crow or slavery.

Of course those whose ancestors fought for the Union against those they considered traitors and rebels, or those whose ancestors suffered at the hands of slaveholders which were part of the reason for the CSA, have different reactions when they see it. Which is also completely understandable.

In reality, it's just a piece of cloth.

Yes, and some people romanticize the brave SS Waffen...

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I imagine a lot of people fly the rebel flag as a sort of rah rah our team football mentality.

That doesn't detract from the fact that it symbolizes treachery and failure.

Only in your mind does it symbolize treachery. If it was true then Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis and all Confedrate Government leadership would have been hung upon capture.

No...that would have just prolonged the misery the country was going through and fostered more bad feelings.

For the same reason no one ever seriously considered charging Bush with war crimes.

I guess you never heard of the reconstruction era? 10 years I believe it was.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I imagine a lot of people fly the rebel flag as a sort of rah rah our team football mentality.

That doesn't detract from the fact that it symbolizes treachery and failure.

Yeah, I've seen a lot of the rah rah team thing. Some also do it out of respect for ancestors who fought, some in support of the political idea of states' rights it symbolizes to them or the romanticized version of "Southern heritage" it represents in that whole Gone With the Wind way. Most aren't flying it as a statement that they want to go back to Jim Crow or slavery.

Of course those whose ancestors fought for the Union against those they considered traitors and rebels, or those whose ancestors suffered at the hands of slaveholders which were part of the reason for the CSA, have different reactions when they see it. Which is also completely understandable.

In reality, it's just a piece of cloth.

Yes, and some people romanticize the brave SS Waffen...

The two are not compareable.

 

[bodecea]

I imagine a lot of people fly the rebel flag as a sort of rah rah our team football mentality.

That doesn't detract from the fact that it symbolizes treachery and failure.

Only in your mind does it symbolize treachery. If it was true then Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis and all Confedrate Government leadership would have been hung upon capture.

There was actual talk of them doing that. But Lincoln, thru Grant made the conscious decision to NOT treat the Rebel leaders as traitors in order to heal the country faster. They were traitors...and got off lucky.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I imagine a lot of people fly the rebel flag as a sort of rah rah our team football mentality.

That doesn't detract from the fact that it symbolizes treachery and failure.

Only in your mind does it symbolize treachery. If it was true then Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis and all Confedrate Government leadership would have been hung upon capture.

There was actual talk of them doing that. But Lincoln, thru Grant made the conscious decision to NOT treat the Rebel leaders as traitors in order to heal the country faster. They were traitors...and got off lucky.

again the reconstruction period there was no healing.

If the north had any legal standing to hang anyone they would have done it.

President Andrew Johnson even stated that if given the chance he would hang Davis. Jefferson Davis asked for a trail but never was granted one. Especially after the death of lincoln do not even suggest the healing of a nation prevented the leaders of the south from being hung.

 

[bodecea]

Only in your mind does it symbolize treachery. If it was true then Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis and all Confedrate Government leadership would have been hung upon capture.

There was actual talk of them doing that. But Lincoln, thru Grant made the conscious decision to NOT treat the Rebel leaders as traitors in order to heal the country faster. They were traitors...and got off lucky.

again the reconstruction period there was no healing.

If the north had any legal standing to hang anyone they would have done it.

President Andrew Johnson even stated that if given the chance he would hang Davis. Jefferson Davis asked for a trail but never was granted one. Especially after the death of lincoln do not even suggest the healing of a nation prevented the leaders of the south from being hung.

Reconstruction was post-Lincoln. I seriously doubt it would have been so vindictive if he had lived for two reasons....1) he had the juice to control the Radical Republicans, and 2) there would have been no Southern Assassination plot to crush the South over.

 

[manifold]

I've heard people decry the Confederate flag flying on statehouse grounds in SC, saying that it is insensitive.

I've also heard people decry the would be Ground Zero mosque, also saying it is insensitive.

Not surprisingly, there is very little overlap among the two groups doing the decrying.


What I'd like to have explained, by anyone taking any side, is why one is indeed insensitive while the other is not.


note: Thread inspired by Ravi's self-pwnage in another thread.

I find both to be insensitive for different reasons.

The rebel flag due to its historical imagry as the symbol of states that wanted slavery
The Ground Zero mosque due to the historical implications of its name and its proximity to "sacred ground".

However, I do recognize that both people who want to fly that flag and the ground zero mosque have the right to fly the flag and build the mosque under the first ammendment.

The voice of sanity in an otherwise insane and emotionally charged discussion.

 

[xotoxi]

The Confederate Battle flag was not identified as a symbol of racism until after the centennial anniversary of the American civil war. Shortly after that the klan started using it as their symbol. Up until then the klan would carry they U.S. Flag and the Christian flag.

The Confederate Battle flag is the flag of a defeated foreign nation which declared war against the United States of America.

It should not be flown outside on state property in an equal status as the US Flag and the State Flag.

The flag of East Germany is not flown with the German Flag in former East German cities, is it?

I have no problem with it being displayed in some manner, like in a museum or statehouse rotunda, as it is a historical item. But it should not be flown in a public setting.

And just for the record, I do not feel that the Confederate flag is racist on its own, unless it is used by a racist to signify their racist agenda (i.e. KKK)