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I've heard of people being revived after as long as 40 minutes if they drowned in near freezing water. That is with no other associated trauma. Massive blood loss and broken bones with the introduction of wholesale infection through broken skin and vital organs. Once the heart stops with no adrenaline or electro shock ...no CPR? I doubt any human ever has auto revived under such circumstance.
So what happened to the body..?
One..it was never put in the cave ..taken to a communal grave meant for crimminals.
two...and most likely...it was removed by the Jews as not to be buried with any honor or martyr value.
Chances of a ressurection as depicted in bible...zero.
It would be a miracle if there were no permanent damage.
Well there were more then one witness to the fact of the resurrection ,are they all liars ?
The bible has proven to be reliable and Josephus the historian wrote about Christ and the resurrection.
Two References to Jesus
Josephus' writings cover a number of figures familiar to Bible readers. He discusses John the Baptist, James the brother of Jesus, Pontius Pilate, the Sadducees, the Sanhedrin, the High Priests, and the Pharisees. As for Jesus, there are two references to him in Antiquities. I will recount them in the order in which they appear.
First, in a section in Book 18 dealing with various actions of Pilate, the extant texts refer to Jesus and his ministry. This passage is known as the Testimonium Flavianum referred to hereafter as the "TF".
Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.
Jewish Antiquities 18.3.3
Second, in Book 20 there is what could be called a passing reference to Jesus in a paragraph describing the murder of Jesus' brother, James, at the hands of Ananus, the High Priest.
But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as lawbreakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.
Jewish Antiquities 20.9.1
The Testimonium Flavianum
It is not the purpose of this article to address the arguments of the few commentators - mostly Jesus Mythologists - who doubt the authenticity of the second reference. According to leading Josephus scholar Louis H. Feldman, the authenticity of this passage "has been almost universally acknowledged" by scholars. (Feldman, "Josephus," Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pages 990-91). Instead, this article focuses on arguments regarding the partial authenticity of the TF.
Did Josephus Refer to Jesus
Yes. ALL liars. If the Jeebus was still alive there would have been hundreds of witnesses. There would have been MAJOR panic among the romans. Either he would have been recaptured and crucified AGAIN or released and given some kind of special place as a living god because no man had ever been dead for three days. In short it would have been an immediate big time on the spot game changer.
Yup...ALL liars.
According to Genesis, God created earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th. Only a delusional human could make up such nonsensical crap especially the part about God resting on the 7th? God(s) doesn't (don't) rest, or need to.
Bad translation.
While it is true that many translations of the Bible such as the New Revised Version Standard (NRSV), the King James' Version (KJV) and others render the word Shavat as "rested" a more accurate translation of Shavat is "abstained," i.e., "God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it because He abstained from all His work which God created to make" (Gen. 2:4). Nachmanides (12th century) interpreted these words to mean "he ceased to perform all His creative work."
Why the need to abstain? Obviously it wasn't because of tiredness! God's resting from creation teaches us that as human beings created in the image of God, we too need to make time for rest and purposely abstain from interfering with creation one day of the week. The passion to create can sometimes be dangerous — especially for a technological society that prides itself on its ability to create, manipulate and control the world around it.
Why Would A God Need to Rest on the Seventh Day?
Joh 5:17
(ASV) But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh even until now, and I work.
(BBE) But his answer was: My Father is still working even now, and so I am working.
(CEV) But Jesus said, "My Father has never stopped working, and that is why I keep on working."
(KJV) But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
(KJV+) ButG1161 JesusG2424 answeredG611 them,G846 MyG3450 FatherG3962 workethG2038 hitherto,G2193 G737 and IG2504 work.G2038
(MKJV) But Jesus answered them, My Father works until now, and I work.
Just what the world needed, a damned English Monarch reinterpreting the Bible. Sorry, if I don't buy into the creation story as bearing any resemblance to fact living or dead. Don't misunderstand me, the Bible is a great work - part fact, part fiction. It give us a historical look at life on earth thousands of years ago. Its pages are filled with wondrous stories of men and women who show us that lives filled with love, compassion, understanding, tolerance and humility lead to happiness and peace of mind.
But it is quite impossible for 20th or 21st Century man to forget that it is the work of men of God, not God Himself.
Man doesn't have clue one what God would have done on the 7th day after creating the world. However, since men tire easily especially after 6 days of back breaking hard work, resting on the 7th sounded like a pretty good idea to him, but that's not God's idea.
That God exists is a belief held world-wide by the majority of people who come from all walks of life and faiths. However, Who He, She, It is and what His, Her, or Its plan is for the world remains a Divine Mystery to mankind. And no matter how many times anyone reads their Bible, that Mystery is never revealed. Just some followers of certain religions have this mistaken notion that they're belief system is closer to the truth than another. And what is even more disturbing, is the lengths to which many religious sects are willing to go to prove they don't know what the hell they're talking about. That's not the humility of faith that's the arrogance of men.
Do you understand that, by that logic, you cannot trust anything that didn't happen in the lifetime of someone alive today? After all, none of us were there! Even if there is some sort of written record, since none of us were there, there is no way to verify the accuracy of those records!
I'm sorry, but saying dating methods that don't involve someone being there are inherently inaccurate is just silly. Now, perhaps our dating methods ARE inaccurate; your inability to accept the reality around you as having been constant before your time is no reason to think so, however.
Do you realize in determing even a recent death it is hard to pinpoint an accurate time of death ? do you understand one of the determining factors to even get close to the actual time of death is either by witnessing the death or the last time they were seen alive.
You think dating methods for millions of years are accurate
Are you saying that the dating methods for recently deceased corpses is the same as the dating methods for thousands or millions of years old fossils?
Are you saying that radiometric dating claims to be as accurate as forensic science giving a time of death?
Whether our dating methods are accurate or not is not dependent upon whether something has been witnessed.
So based on these statements, I am guessing you accept the written accounts of the ressurection of Christ??
Based on my statements which are a response to YWC's posts you guess that? Well, have fun with that.
I guess everyone posting failed to gleen the sarcasm of my response. This is classic case of having it your way when it suits your point but denying the same concept when it is something you don't agree with.
This is all a mute point for me anyway. I am not a young earth Creationist. I believe in a 13.7 Billion year old universe and roughly 4 billion year old earth.
It would be a miracle if there were no permanent damage.
Well there were more then one witness to the fact of the resurrection ,are they all liars ?
The bible has proven to be reliable and Josephus the historian wrote about Christ and the resurrection.
Two References to Jesus
Josephus' writings cover a number of figures familiar to Bible readers. He discusses John the Baptist, James the brother of Jesus, Pontius Pilate, the Sadducees, the Sanhedrin, the High Priests, and the Pharisees. As for Jesus, there are two references to him in Antiquities. I will recount them in the order in which they appear.
First, in a section in Book 18 dealing with various actions of Pilate, the extant texts refer to Jesus and his ministry. This passage is known as the Testimonium Flavianum referred to hereafter as the "TF".
Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.
Jewish Antiquities 18.3.3
Second, in Book 20 there is what could be called a passing reference to Jesus in a paragraph describing the murder of Jesus' brother, James, at the hands of Ananus, the High Priest.
But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as lawbreakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.
Jewish Antiquities 20.9.1
The Testimonium Flavianum
It is not the purpose of this article to address the arguments of the few commentators - mostly Jesus Mythologists - who doubt the authenticity of the second reference. According to leading Josephus scholar Louis H. Feldman, the authenticity of this passage "has been almost universally acknowledged" by scholars. (Feldman, "Josephus," Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pages 990-91). Instead, this article focuses on arguments regarding the partial authenticity of the TF.
Did Josephus Refer to Jesus
Yes. ALL liars. If the Jeebus was still alive there would have been hundreds of witnesses. There would have been MAJOR panic among the romans. Either he would have been recaptured and crucified AGAIN or released and given some kind of special place as a living god because no man had ever been dead for three days. In short it would have been an immediate big time on the spot game changer.
Yup...ALL liars.
Uh he was a spirit that only materialized to his closest followers, and it was recorded in the scriptures.
Need to read the scriptures before you pass judgment he didn't appear to be seen by everyone. But notice the words of Josephus. Apparently there were many witnesses of his acts that were passed onto Josephus.
Do you realize in determing even a recent death it is hard to pinpoint an accurate time of death ? do you understand one of the determining factors to even get close to the actual time of death is either by witnessing the death or the last time they were seen alive.
You think dating methods for millions of years are accurate
Are you saying that the dating methods for recently deceased corpses is the same as the dating methods for thousands or millions of years old fossils?
Are you saying that radiometric dating claims to be as accurate as forensic science giving a time of death?
Whether our dating methods are accurate or not is not dependent upon whether something has been witnessed.
No what I am saying is how are they anymore reliable then the methods being used in determining a recent death. Besides we know they are not accurate it has been shown many times the current dating methods that is.
Really, because that is the only way of knowing the actual time of death is by it being witnessed.
So if we say a fosssil is 100,000 years old that is believable but a person is said to have died between 8 am and 4 pm does not cause one to pause about deteriming the age of a fossil ?
Yes. ALL liars. If the Jeebus was still alive there would have been hundreds of witnesses. There would have been MAJOR panic among the romans. Either he would have been recaptured and crucified AGAIN or released and given some kind of special place as a living god because no man had ever been dead for three days. In short it would have been an immediate big time on the spot game changer.
Yup...ALL liars.
Uh he was a spirit that only materialized to his closest followers, and it was recorded in the scriptures.
Need to read the scriptures before you pass judgment he didn't appear to be seen by everyone. But notice the words of Josephus. Apparently there were many witnesses of his acts that were passed onto Josephus.
UH...OK. It has been many years since I read a bible but I recall something about the "stone" covering the entrance was moved... No body of Jeebus inside..stuff like that..
So NOW this was all about Ghosts? Nobody actually saw what they thought was an actual Jeebus?
So if it was ghosts...what happened to the corpse?
Are you saying that the dating methods for recently deceased corpses is the same as the dating methods for thousands or millions of years old fossils?
Are you saying that radiometric dating claims to be as accurate as forensic science giving a time of death?
Whether our dating methods are accurate or not is not dependent upon whether something has been witnessed.
No what I am saying is how are they anymore reliable then the methods being used in determining a recent death. Besides we know they are not accurate it has been shown many times the current dating methods that is.
Really, because that is the only way of knowing the actual time of death is by it being witnessed.
So if we say a fosssil is 100,000 years old that is believable but a person is said to have died between 8 am and 4 pm does not cause one to pause about deteriming the age of a fossil ?
If we used the same dating methods in the different situations, it would certainly make more sense to compare them. Would you be upset with an estimated size of our solar system because it isn't accurate to the meter? These are different measurements taken in different ways.
Just because there are no witnesses doesn't mean it is impossible to come up with an accurate time of death. Just because there were no witnesses doesn't mean it's impossible to come up with a (fairly) accurate age to fossils. I'm not sure why you seem to think that, without witnesses, any dating method is completely useless. If you think the science behind radiometric dating is wrong, that's fine, but claiming a need for witnesses is just ridiculous.
The only answers I accept from mans sciences are facts that can actually be accurately supported by evidence.
I have already answered the really important question to myself and that is did life come through a designer or a natural process called evolution.
I have seen no real science contradict the bible that is one of many reasons why I feel I can trust in the bible.
Based on my statements which are a response to YWC's posts you guess that? Well, have fun with that.
I guess everyone posting failed to gleen the sarcasm of my response. This is classic case of having it your way when it suits your point but denying the same concept when it is something you don't agree with.
This is all a mute point for me anyway. I am not a young earth Creationist. I believe in a 13.7 Billion year old universe and roughly 4 billion year old earth.
I do know this it is written in the scriptures a day is a thousand years to God so was it mans days or Gods days for creation ? 12,000 years by Gods calendar.
The only answers I accept from mans sciences are facts that can actually be accurately supported by evidence.
I have already answered the really important question to myself and that is did life come through a designer or a natural process called evolution.
I have seen no real science contradict the bible that is one of many reasons why I feel I can trust in the bible.
The problem, at least for me, is that based on your posts, I get the feeling you do not trust any science that contradicts the bible, rather than not having seen real science that does so. When you say things like witnesses are the only viable dating method, it causes doubt about your ability to recognize what is real science.
I guess everyone posting failed to gleen the sarcasm of my response. This is classic case of having it your way when it suits your point but denying the same concept when it is something you don't agree with.
This is all a mute point for me anyway. I am not a young earth Creationist. I believe in a 13.7 Billion year old universe and roughly 4 billion year old earth.
I do know this it is written in the scriptures a day is a thousand years to God so was it mans days or Gods days for creation ? 12,000 years by Gods calendar.
Again, in the Creation story, a 24 hour period was not established prior to the use of a day as describing a Creation event. I don't think you can take that literally. I also don't think you should take the statement you quoted above out of context.
2 Peter 3:
3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.[a]
The first part of the quote is a day is like a thousand years... read, our single 24-hour day is like a thousand years to God. So was the earth created in 7 God Days or 7 Earth Days? I think the point you are missing is that the Designer transcends time. He operates outside of time. The word day in Genesis is used to denote a period of time metaphorically, not an actual day. This is confirmed by science that even time began at the Big Bang. Also, the description in verse 10 is also confirmed by science. Our sun will eventually become a Red Giant, destroying the earth by fire.
ID Theory is falsifiable...
"What is non-substantive about asking whether design exists and whether it can be reliably detected? That is a perfectly reasonable, objective, scientific question. It is done all the time in archaeology, forensics, IP litigation, etc. Are you seriously claiming that detection of design in these areas is lacking all substance? You are still hung up on this ID=creationism meme that you can’t seem to get free of."
Uncommon Descent | Q: LYO challenges: “give me a fact, real or hypothetical, any fact at all about the world which would falsify ID” A: If CSI were demonstrably to come from blind chance and necessity it would (but, with high empirical re
Funny how when I started posting up real, ID science, all the haters went silent.
sorry but Id CREATIONISIM ARE NOT SCIENCEID Theory is falsifiable...
"What is non-substantive about asking whether design exists and whether it can be reliably detected? That is a perfectly reasonable, objective, scientific question. It is done all the time in archaeology, forensics, IP litigation, etc. Are you seriously claiming that detection of design in these areas is lacking all substance? You are still hung up on this ID=creationism meme that you cant seem to get free of."
Uncommon Descent | Q: LYO challenges: give me a fact, real or hypothetical, any fact at all about the world which would falsify ID A: If CSI were demonstrably to come from blind chance and necessity it would (but, with high empirical re
Funny how when I started posting up real, ID science, all the haters went silent.
a stopped clock is correct twice a day.ID Theory is falsifiable...
"What is non-substantive about asking whether design exists and whether it can be reliably detected? That is a perfectly reasonable, objective, scientific question. It is done all the time in archaeology, forensics, IP litigation, etc. Are you seriously claiming that detection of design in these areas is lacking all substance? You are still hung up on this ID=creationism meme that you cant seem to get free of."
Uncommon Descent | Q: LYO challenges: give me a fact, real or hypothetical, any fact at all about the world which would falsify ID A: If CSI were demonstrably to come from blind chance and necessity it would (but, with high empirical re
Funny how when I started posting up real, ID science, all the haters went silent.
Back your claim.
Some of the very first scientists were creationist and they used their presuppositions in explaining evidence the same as the secular scientists of today.
a stopped clock is correct twice a day.
Back your claim.
Some of the very first scientists were creationist and they used their presuppositions in explaining evidence the same as the secular scientists of today.
Stone Age pebble may be oldest engraving ever
Found in South Africa, the meaning of this colorful 100,000-year-old relic is a mystery
Stone Age pebble may be oldest engraving ever - Technology & science - Science - DiscoveryNews.com - msnbc.com
a stopped clock is correct twice a day.Back your claim.
Some of the very first scientists were creationist and they used their presuppositions in explaining evidence the same as the secular scientists of today.
Stone Age pebble may be oldest engraving ever
Found in South Africa, the meaning of this colorful 100,000-year-old relic is a mystery
Stone Age pebble may be oldest engraving ever - Technology & science - Science - DiscoveryNews.com - msnbc.com
Science is continually finding stuff that tosses "known" beliefs on it's head. They recently found mastadon bones deep in a lake bed covered in small boulders (with no other boulders anywhere near) that had tool markings on the ribs. Carbon dating placed these tool marked ribs as old as 100,000 years old. I can't remember what state they were in..Wyoming or Montana I think.
a stopped clock is correct twice a day.
Back your claim.
Some of the very first scientists were creationist and they used their presuppositions in explaining evidence the same as the secular scientists of today.
Stone Age pebble may be oldest engraving ever
Found in South Africa, the meaning of this colorful 100,000-year-old relic is a mystery
Stone Age pebble may be oldest engraving ever - Technology & science - Science - DiscoveryNews.com - msnbc.com
a stopped clock is correct twice a day.
Stone Age pebble may be oldest engraving ever
Found in South Africa, the meaning of this colorful 100,000-year-old relic is a mystery
Stone Age pebble may be oldest engraving ever - Technology & science - Science - DiscoveryNews.com - msnbc.com
Science is continually finding stuff that tosses "known" beliefs on it's head. They recently found mastadon bones deep in a lake bed covered in small boulders (with no other boulders anywhere near) that had tool markings on the ribs. Carbon dating placed these tool marked ribs as old as 100,000 years old. I can't remember what state they were in..Wyoming or Montana I think.
So what does that tell you ?
