Creationists

[UltimateReality]

After all, none of us were there! Even if there is some sort of written record, since none of us were there, there is no way to verify the accuracy of those records!

So based on these statements, I am guessing you accept the written accounts of the ressurection of Christ??

Memo to godboy: When people are dead for over 24 hours ..they stay dead.

So if they are only dead for 23 hours, there's a chance?

 

[newpolitics]

Who said that natural forces don't exist?

We just believe they are orchestrated by God.

Which of course, they are.

You don't know what you believe. You read a book and listened to a guy speak when you were little, and was told by everyone in the community that this was the 'truth.' You never actually questioned it for yourself. This makes you a sheep. A docile, follower of whatever information flew your way at the developmentally appropriate time as to make a lasting impression on your belief system. That's all this is. Don't think anything you believe has anything to do with reality, you dumbass.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Who said that natural forces don't exist?

We just believe they are orchestrated by God.

Which of course, they are.

You don't know what you believe. You read a book and listened to a guy speak when you were little, and was told by everyone in the community that this was the 'truth.' You never actually questioned it for yourself. This makes you a sheep. A docile, follower of whatever information flew your way at the developmentally appropriate time as to make a lasting impression on your belief system. That's all this is. Don't think anything you believe has anything to do with reality, you dumbass.

Is this how people on your side of the debate act when they are not doing so well ?

 

[Youwerecreated]

Dating methods are only as accurate as the presuppositions and speculation,none of us were there.

I accept legitmate science that can be verified not left to presuppositions affecting the conclusion or vivid imaginations.

Do you understand that, by that logic, you cannot trust anything that didn't happen in the lifetime of someone alive today? After all, none of us were there! Even if there is some sort of written record, since none of us were there, there is no way to verify the accuracy of those records!

I'm sorry, but saying dating methods that don't involve someone being there are inherently inaccurate is just silly. Now, perhaps our dating methods ARE inaccurate; your inability to accept the reality around you as having been constant before your time is no reason to think so, however.

Do you realize in determing even a recent death it is hard to pinpoint an accurate time of death ? do you understand one of the determining factors to even get close to the actual time of death is either by witnessing the death or the last time they were seen alive.

You think dating methods for millions of years are accurate

 

[newpolitics]

Who said that natural forces don't exist?

We just believe they are orchestrated by God.

Which of course, they are.

You don't know what you believe. You read a book and listened to a guy speak when you were little, and was told by everyone in the community that this was the 'truth.' You never actually questioned it for yourself. This makes you a sheep. A docile, follower of whatever information flew your way at the developmentally appropriate time as to make a lasting impression on your belief system. That's all this is. Don't think anything you believe has anything to do with reality, you dumbass.

Is this how people on your side of the debate act when they are not doing so well ?

Oh just shut up. You don't have an argument. Go to church and stay out of the debate forums.

 

[HUGGY]

So based on these statements, I am guessing you accept the written accounts of the ressurection of Christ??

Memo to godboy: When people are dead for over 24 hours ..they stay dead.

So if they are only dead for 23 hours, there's a chance?

I've heard of people being revived after as long as 40 minutes if they drowned in near freezing water. That is with no other associated trauma. Massive blood loss and broken bones with the introduction of wholesale infection through broken skin and vital organs. Once the heart stops with no adrenaline or electro shock ...no CPR? I doubt any human ever has auto revived under such circumstance.

So what happened to the body..?

One..it was never put in the cave ..taken to a communal grave meant for crimminals.

two...and most likely...it was removed by the Jews as not to be buried with any honor or martyr value.

Chances of a ressurection as depicted in bible...zero.

 

[Youwerecreated]

You don't know what you believe. You read a book and listened to a guy speak when you were little, and was told by everyone in the community that this was the 'truth.' You never actually questioned it for yourself. This makes you a sheep. A docile, follower of whatever information flew your way at the developmentally appropriate time as to make a lasting impression on your belief system. That's all this is. Don't think anything you believe has anything to do with reality, you dumbass.

Is this how people on your side of the debate act when they are not doing so well ?

Oh just shut up. You don't have an argument. Go to church and stay out of the debate forums.

If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen. I have been debating these issues for many years there is nothing new you can bring to the table that can't be shown as rediculous and totally illogical,junior.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Memo to godboy: When people are dead for over 24 hours ..they stay dead.

So if they are only dead for 23 hours, there's a chance?

I've heard of people being revived after as long as 40 minutes if they drowned in near freezing water. That is with no other associated trauma. Massive blood loss and broken bones with the introduction of wholesale infection through broken skin and vital organs. Once the heart stops with no adrenaline or electro shock ...no CPR? I doubt any human ever has auto revived under such circumstance.

So what happened to the body..?

One..it was never put in the cave ..taken to a communal grave meant for crimminals.

two...and most likely...it was removed by the Jews as not to be buried with any honor or martyr value.

Chances of a ressurection as depicted in bible...zero.

It would be a miracle if there were no permanent damage.

Well there were more then one witness to the fact of the resurrection ,are they all liars ?

The bible has proven to be reliable and Josephus the historian wrote about Christ and the resurrection.




Two References to Jesus

Josephus' writings cover a number of figures familiar to Bible readers. He discusses John the Baptist, James the brother of Jesus, Pontius Pilate, the Sadducees, the Sanhedrin, the High Priests, and the Pharisees. As for Jesus, there are two references to him in Antiquities. I will recount them in the order in which they appear.

First, in a section in Book 18 dealing with various actions of Pilate, the extant texts refer to Jesus and his ministry. This passage is known as the Testimonium Flavianum referred to hereafter as the "TF".

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.

Jewish Antiquities 18.3.3

Second, in Book 20 there is what could be called a passing reference to Jesus in a paragraph describing the murder of Jesus' brother, James, at the hands of Ananus, the High Priest.

But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as lawbreakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.

Jewish Antiquities 20.9.1

The Testimonium Flavianum

It is not the purpose of this article to address the arguments of the few commentators - mostly Jesus Mythologists - who doubt the authenticity of the second reference. According to leading Josephus scholar Louis H. Feldman, the authenticity of this passage "has been almost universally acknowledged" by scholars. (Feldman, "Josephus," Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pages 990-91). Instead, this article focuses on arguments regarding the partial authenticity of the TF.

http://www.bede.org.uk/Josephus.htm

 

[Poli_Sigh]

According to Genesis, God created earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th. Only a delusional human could make up such nonsensical crap especially the part about God resting on the 7th? God(s) doesn't (don't) rest, or need to.

 

[cooky]

Dating methods are only as accurate as the presuppositions and speculation,none of us were there.

I accept legitmate science that can be verified not left to presuppositions affecting the conclusion or vivid imaginations.

Do you understand that, by that logic, you cannot trust anything that didn't happen in the lifetime of someone alive today? After all, none of us were there! Even if there is some sort of written record, since none of us were there, there is no way to verify the accuracy of those records!

I'm sorry, but saying dating methods that don't involve someone being there are inherently inaccurate is just silly. Now, perhaps our dating methods ARE inaccurate; your inability to accept the reality around you as having been constant before your time is no reason to think so, however.

No It's not silly, it is factually accurate to say what I said. It's not like we are determining a death that happened recently. There have been many documented cases of objects being dated by several different scientists coming up with a different age. There have been many cases different parts of the same object showed different ages. Do I need to repost it for you ?

Radioisotopic dating methods provide very reliable and accurate measurement when they are applied appropriately. By measuring the decay of more than one radioactive isotope allows researchers to calibrate and corroborate their instrumentz and results. Naturally, these protocols arent full proof as nothing os but more often than not they produce datasets with very high confidence inyervals.

 

[Youwerecreated]

According to Genesis, God created earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th. Only a delusional human could make up such nonsensical crap especially the part about God resting on the 7th? God(s) doesn't (don't) rest, or need to.

Bad translation.

While it is true that many translations of the Bible such as the New Revised Version Standard (NRSV), the King James' Version (KJV) and others render the word Shavat as "rested" a more accurate translation of Shavat is "abstained," i.e., "God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it because He abstained from all His work which God created to make" (Gen. 2:4). Nachmanides (12th century) interpreted these words to mean "he ceased to perform all His creative work."

Why the need to abstain? Obviously it wasn't because of tiredness! God's resting from creation teaches us that as human beings created in the image of God, we too need to make time for rest and purposely abstain from interfering with creation one day of the week. The passion to create can sometimes be dangerous — especially for a technological society that prides itself on its ability to create, manipulate and control the world around it.


Why Would A God Need to Rest on the Seventh Day?


Joh 5:17

(ASV) But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh even until now, and I work.

(BBE) But his answer was: My Father is still working even now, and so I am working.

(CEV) But Jesus said, "My Father has never stopped working, and that is why I keep on working."

(KJV) But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

(KJV+) ButG1161 JesusG2424 answeredG611 them,G846 MyG3450 FatherG3962 workethG2038 hitherto,G2193 G737 and IG2504 work.G2038

(MKJV) But Jesus answered them, My Father works until now, and I work.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Do you understand that, by that logic, you cannot trust anything that didn't happen in the lifetime of someone alive today? After all, none of us were there! Even if there is some sort of written record, since none of us were there, there is no way to verify the accuracy of those records!

I'm sorry, but saying dating methods that don't involve someone being there are inherently inaccurate is just silly. Now, perhaps our dating methods ARE inaccurate; your inability to accept the reality around you as having been constant before your time is no reason to think so, however.

No It's not silly, it is factually accurate to say what I said. It's not like we are determining a death that happened recently. There have been many documented cases of objects being dated by several different scientists coming up with a different age. There have been many cases different parts of the same object showed different ages. Do I need to repost it for you ?

Radioisotopic dating methods provide very reliable and accurate measurement when they are applied appropriately. By measuring the decay of more than one radioactive isotope allows researchers to calibrate and corroborate their instrumentz and results. Naturally, these protocols arent full proof as nothing os but more often than not they produce datasets with very high confidence inyervals.

You still need mans presuppopsitions and correct interpretations of the evidence. I don't trust man to figure these things out accurately,their biased views have a tendency to get in the way. They can't even give an exact time of death of a person recently unless it was witnessed.

 

[HUGGY]

So if they are only dead for 23 hours, there's a chance?

I've heard of people being revived after as long as 40 minutes if they drowned in near freezing water. That is with no other associated trauma. Massive blood loss and broken bones with the introduction of wholesale infection through broken skin and vital organs. Once the heart stops with no adrenaline or electro shock ...no CPR? I doubt any human ever has auto revived under such circumstance.

So what happened to the body..?

One..it was never put in the cave ..taken to a communal grave meant for crimminals.

two...and most likely...it was removed by the Jews as not to be buried with any honor or martyr value.

Chances of a ressurection as depicted in bible...zero.

It would be a miracle if there were no permanent damage.

Well there were more then one witness to the fact of the resurrection ,are they all liars ?

The bible has proven to be reliable and Josephus the historian wrote about Christ and the resurrection.




Two References to Jesus

Josephus' writings cover a number of figures familiar to Bible readers. He discusses John the Baptist, James the brother of Jesus, Pontius Pilate, the Sadducees, the Sanhedrin, the High Priests, and the Pharisees. As for Jesus, there are two references to him in Antiquities. I will recount them in the order in which they appear.

First, in a section in Book 18 dealing with various actions of Pilate, the extant texts refer to Jesus and his ministry. This passage is known as the Testimonium Flavianum referred to hereafter as the "TF".

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.

Jewish Antiquities 18.3.3

Second, in Book 20 there is what could be called a passing reference to Jesus in a paragraph describing the murder of Jesus' brother, James, at the hands of Ananus, the High Priest.

But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as lawbreakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.

Jewish Antiquities 20.9.1

The Testimonium Flavianum

It is not the purpose of this article to address the arguments of the few commentators - mostly Jesus Mythologists - who doubt the authenticity of the second reference. According to leading Josephus scholar Louis H. Feldman, the authenticity of this passage "has been almost universally acknowledged" by scholars. (Feldman, "Josephus," Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pages 990-91). Instead, this article focuses on arguments regarding the partial authenticity of the TF.

Did Josephus Refer to Jesus

Yes. ALL liars. If the Jeebus was still alive there would have been hundreds of witnesses. There would have been MAJOR panic among the romans. Either he would have been recaptured and crucified AGAIN or released and given some kind of special place as a living god because no man had ever been dead for three days. In short it would have been an immediate big time on the spot game changer.

Yup...ALL liars.

 

[Poli_Sigh]

According to Genesis, God created earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th. Only a delusional human could make up such nonsensical crap especially the part about God resting on the 7th? God(s) doesn't (don't) rest, or need to.

Bad translation.

While it is true that many translations of the Bible such as the New Revised Version Standard (NRSV), the King James' Version (KJV) and others render the word Shavat as "rested" a more accurate translation of Shavat is "abstained," i.e., "God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it because He abstained from all His work which God created to make" (Gen. 2:4). Nachmanides (12th century) interpreted these words to mean "he ceased to perform all His creative work."

Why the need to abstain? Obviously it wasn't because of tiredness! God's resting from creation teaches us that as human beings created in the image of God, we too need to make time for rest and purposely abstain from interfering with creation one day of the week. The passion to create can sometimes be dangerous — especially for a technological society that prides itself on its ability to create, manipulate and control the world around it.


Why Would A God Need to Rest on the Seventh Day?


Joh 5:17

(ASV) But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh even until now, and I work.

(BBE) But his answer was: My Father is still working even now, and so I am working.

(CEV) But Jesus said, "My Father has never stopped working, and that is why I keep on working."

(KJV) But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

(KJV+) ButG1161 JesusG2424 answeredG611 them,G846 MyG3450 FatherG3962 workethG2038 hitherto,G2193 G737 and IG2504 work.G2038

(MKJV) But Jesus answered them, My Father works until now, and I work.

Just what the world needed, a damned English Monarch reinterpreting the Bible. Sorry, if I don't buy into the creation story as bearing any resemblance to fact living or dead. Don't misunderstand me, the Bible is a great work - part fact, part fiction. It give us a historical look at life on earth thousands of years ago. Its pages are filled with wondrous stories of men and women who show us that lives filled with love, compassion, understanding, tolerance and humility lead to happiness and peace of mind.

But it is quite impossible for 20th or 21st Century man to forget that it is the work of men of God, not God Himself.

Man doesn't have clue one what God would have done on the 7th day after creating the world. However, since men tire easily especially after 6 days of back breaking hard work, resting on the 7th sounded like a pretty good idea to him, but that's not God's idea.

That God exists is a belief held world-wide by the majority of people who come from all walks of life and faiths. However, Who He, She, It is and what His, Her, or Its plan is for the world remains a Divine Mystery to mankind. And no matter how many times anyone reads their Bible, that Mystery is never revealed. Just some followers of certain religions have this mistaken notion that they're belief system is closer to the truth than another. And what is even more disturbing, is the lengths to which many religious sects are willing to go to prove they don't know what the hell they're talking about. That's not the humility of faith that's the arrogance of men.

 

[Montrovant]

Dating methods are only as accurate as the presuppositions and speculation,none of us were there.

I accept legitmate science that can be verified not left to presuppositions affecting the conclusion or vivid imaginations.

Do you understand that, by that logic, you cannot trust anything that didn't happen in the lifetime of someone alive today? After all, none of us were there! Even if there is some sort of written record, since none of us were there, there is no way to verify the accuracy of those records!

I'm sorry, but saying dating methods that don't involve someone being there are inherently inaccurate is just silly. Now, perhaps our dating methods ARE inaccurate; your inability to accept the reality around you as having been constant before your time is no reason to think so, however.

Do you realize in determing even a recent death it is hard to pinpoint an accurate time of death ? do you understand one of the determining factors to even get close to the actual time of death is either by witnessing the death or the last time they were seen alive.

You think dating methods for millions of years are accurate

Are you saying that the dating methods for recently deceased corpses is the same as the dating methods for thousands or millions of years old fossils?

Are you saying that radiometric dating claims to be as accurate as forensic science giving a time of death?

Whether our dating methods are accurate or not is not dependent upon whether something has been witnessed.

 

[Montrovant]

After all, none of us were there! Even if there is some sort of written record, since none of us were there, there is no way to verify the accuracy of those records!

So based on these statements, I am guessing you accept the written accounts of the ressurection of Christ??

Based on my statements which are a response to YWC's posts you guess that? Well, have fun with that.

 

[UltimateReality]

According to Genesis, God created earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th. Only a delusional human could make up such nonsensical crap especially the part about God resting on the 7th? God(s) doesn't (don't) rest, or need to.

Bad translation.

While it is true that many translations of the Bible such as the New Revised Version Standard (NRSV), the King James' Version (KJV) and others render the word Shavat as "rested" a more accurate translation of Shavat is "abstained," i.e., "God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it because He abstained from all His work which God created to make" (Gen. 2:4). Nachmanides (12th century) interpreted these words to mean "he ceased to perform all His creative work."

Why the need to abstain? Obviously it wasn't because of tiredness! God's resting from creation teaches us that as human beings created in the image of God, we too need to make time for rest and purposely abstain from interfering with creation one day of the week. The passion to create can sometimes be dangerous — especially for a technological society that prides itself on its ability to create, manipulate and control the world around it.


Why Would A God Need to Rest on the Seventh Day?


Joh 5:17

(ASV) But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh even until now, and I work.

(BBE) But his answer was: My Father is still working even now, and so I am working.

(CEV) But Jesus said, "My Father has never stopped working, and that is why I keep on working."

(KJV) But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

(KJV+) ButG1161 JesusG2424 answeredG611 them,G846 MyG3450 FatherG3962 workethG2038 hitherto,G2193 G737 and IG2504 work.G2038

(MKJV) But Jesus answered them, My Father works until now, and I work.

Just what the world needed, a damned English Monarch reinterpreting the Bible. Sorry, if I don't buy into the creation story as bearing any resemblance to fact living or dead. Don't misunderstand me, the Bible is a great work - part fact, part fiction. It give us a historical look at life on earth thousands of years ago. Its pages are filled with wondrous stories of men and women who show us that lives filled with love, compassion, understanding, tolerance and humility lead to happiness and peace of mind.

But it is quite impossible for 20th or 21st Century man to forget that it is the work of men of God, not God Himself.

Man doesn't have clue one what God would have done on the 7th day after creating the world. However, since men tire easily especially after 6 days of back breaking hard work, resting on the 7th sounded like a pretty good idea to him, but that's not God's idea.

That God exists is a belief held world-wide by the majority of people who come from all walks of life and faiths. However, Who He, She, It is and what His, Her, or Its plan is for the world remains a Divine Mystery to mankind. And no matter how many times anyone reads their Bible, that Mystery is never revealed. Just some followers of certain religions have this mistaken notion that they're belief system is closer to the truth than another. And what is even more disturbing, is the lengths to which many religious sects are willing to go to prove they don't know what the hell they're talking about. That's not the humility of faith that's the arrogance of men.

The 7-day description of Creation in the Bible is not meant to be taken as literal 24 hour periods. If you actually read the account, the word day is used prior to the earth's rotation being established.

 

[UltimateReality]

After all, none of us were there! Even if there is some sort of written record, since none of us were there, there is no way to verify the accuracy of those records!

So based on these statements, I am guessing you accept the written accounts of the ressurection of Christ??

Based on my statements which are a response to YWC's posts you guess that? Well, have fun with that.

I guess everyone posting failed to gleen the sarcasm of my response. This is classic case of having it your way when it suits your point but denying the same concept when it is something you don't agree with.

This is all a mute point for me anyway. I am not a young earth Creationist. I believe in a 13.7 Billion year old universe and roughly 4 billion year old earth.

 

[UltimateReality]

You don't know what you believe. You read a book and listened to a guy speak when you were little, and was told by everyone in the community that this was the 'truth.' You never actually questioned it for yourself. This makes you a sheep. A docile, follower of whatever information flew your way at the developmentally appropriate time as to make a lasting impression on your belief system. That's all this is. Don't think anything you believe has anything to do with reality, you dumbass.

Is this how people on your side of the debate act when they are not doing so well ?

Oh just shut up. You don't have an argument. Go to church and stay out of the debate forums.

Hey, I hate to point out the obvious here, but you are posting in a thread titled "Religion and Ethics/Creationists" in case you somehow missed that.

 

[Montrovant]

So based on these statements, I am guessing you accept the written accounts of the ressurection of Christ??

Based on my statements which are a response to YWC's posts you guess that? Well, have fun with that.

I guess everyone posting failed to gleen the sarcasm of my response. This is classic case of having it your way when it suits your point but denying the same concept when it is something you don't agree with.

This is all a mute point for me anyway. I am not a young earth Creationist. I believe in a 13.7 Billion year old universe and roughly 4 billion year old earth.

I guessed there was sarcasm, but in this thread, it's best not to assume!