Cuts to SS and Medicare

[WorldWatcher]

Let’s take this a step further.
Since you all want no cap at all ,the sky’s the limit then.
That means at some wage point the wage earner is paying more a year into SS than the maximum annual benefit they could ever receive.

Please explain how this then is any kind of benefit for them.

Study Finds the Rich Live Longer Than the Poor

A new medical study published in JAMA about contributing factors to living longer, finds people with higher net worths may outlive poorer peers.

www.aarp.org

#1 Can't asnwer directly. I said the cap should be doubled or raised (IMHO) to $500K not no cap at all.

#2 Wealthier people (as a population, excluding individual anecdotal stories) tend to live longer, meaning they draw benefits for more years.

WW

 

[WorldWatcher]

Person B is paying what SS says they need to. The end.

Correct.

However, that's not the question.

The question is, should what SS says they need to pay be changed. At that point they will pay a more equal percentage of wages as compared to lower income people.

The end.

WW

 

[Hutch Starskey]

Study Finds the Rich Live Longer Than the Poor

A new medical study published in JAMA about contributing factors to living longer, finds people with higher net worths may outlive poorer peers.

www.aarp.org

#1 Can't asnwer directly. I said the cap should be doubled or raised (IMHO) to $500K not no cap at all.

#2 Wealthier people (as a population, excluding individual anecdotal stories) tend to live longer, meaning they draw benefits for more years.

WW

You’re just then restricting the pain to those folks. Already at $500k they’d be paying over 70% of the maximum benefit a month while the average recipient is paying 20% of their average benefit.

There’s no way to justify that. I never agreed with the idea that tax is theft but that is really close to it.

 

[Hutch Starskey]

Correct.

However, that's not the question.

The question is, should what SS says they need to pay be changed. At that point they will pay a more equal percentage of wages as compared to lower income people.

The end.

WW

There is no question. The entire point of contributing is the promise of a reasonable benefit.
The ratio of contributions to possible benefits is equal.
That’s why the cap is set where it is.

 

[WorldWatcher]

You’re just then restricting the pain to those folks. Already at $500k they’d be paying over 70% of the maximum benefit a month while the average recipient is paying 20% of their average benefit.

There’s no way to justify that. I never agreed with the idea that tax is theft but that is really close to it.

See Post #498.

And your solution that is achievable prior to the SS Trust Fund being depleted and benefits cut/reduced for seniors - you now those people paying into the system for 45 years - is...

What exactly?

WW

 

[struth]

You are correct under the current law. The wealthy wage earner is paying all taxes required by law.

However...

Person A makes $50,000 per year. SS Tax = 12.4%**. That person pays $6,200

Person B makes $500,000 per year. SS Tax = 12.4%** but only on the first $160,000. That person pays $19,840. The other $340,000 is not subject to the tax.
.
.
.
Person A pays at a rate of 12.4% of total wages.
Person B pays at a rate of 3.97% of total wages.

Therefore person B pays at a different rate than person A.

WW

** (Half by EE and half by ER as part of the EE's total compensation.)

no we all pay the same rate on the income that is taxable

 

[WorldWatcher]

no we all pay the same rate on the income that is taxable

You changed the basis from "income that is taxable" to comparing "percent of income"

Mathematically there is no denying that those earning less that $160K in wages pay more in SS tax - as a percentage of wages - than someone earning $320K in wages.

WW

 

[Batcat]

The GOP have been trying to destroy SS and medicare since their inception
Then they lie about it

If the GOP have their way, SS and medicare will take a massive cut.

BRAVO to Biden for calling these liars out. They are just mad because Biden called them out

That’s false. Benefits will be cut if nothing is done to avert the crisis.

Will Social Security Cut Benefits? 3 Things to Know | The Motley Fool

Benefit cuts could be coming. Here's how to prepare.

www.fool.com

***snip***

Keep in mind, too, that benefit cuts will only happen if Congress can't figure out a solution before 2034. Many lawmakers have proposed ideas for how to solve this problem, and if Congress is able to come to a decision in the next decade or so, we may be able to avoid Social Security cuts altogether.

But if every time someone comes up with a solution, you Democrats keep claiming the Republicans are just trying to do away with these programs there will not be a solution and cuts will occur.

How about solving the problem now rather than wait. The longer you wait the more pain the solution will cause.

 

[Hutch Starskey]

See Post #498.

And your solution that is achievable prior to the SS Trust Fund being depleted and benefits cut/reduced for seniors - you now those people paying into the system for 45 years - is...

What exactly?

WW

I’ll be one of them and I don’t expect people who are already paying their fair share to be on the hook for fixing it. Either we all pay, take a cut or both. It is what it is.
BTW, there’s plenty of people over the cap who’ve payed for over 45 years as well.

 

[WorldWatcher]

I’ll be one of them and I don’t expect people who are already paying their fair share to be on the hook for fixing it. Either we all pay, take a cut or both. It is what it is.
BTW, there’s plenty of people over the cap who’ve payed for over 45 years as well.

See Post #498.

And your solution that is achievable prior to the SS Trust Fund being depleted and benefits cut/reduced for seniors - you now those people paying into the system for 45 years - is...

What exactly?

WW

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Rick Scott​

“All federal legislation sunsets in 5 years. If a law is worth keeping, Congress can pass it again,” the document said.

This would require Congress to renew Social Security and Medicare every five years. Scott’s proposal also called for a yearly report from Congress “telling the public what they plan to do when Social Security and Medicare go bankrupt.”

Mike Pence​

Former Vice President Mike Pence, who has indicated that he is considering a bid for the presidency in 2024, said last week that a conversation needs to be had about reforming Social Security.

Mike Lee​

When Sen. Mike Lee (R-Utah) initially ran for Senate in 2010, he called for the complete elimination of Social Security.

“It will be my objective to phase out Social Security, to pull it up by the roots and get rid of it,” Lee said at a campaign event in 2010, adding, “There’s going to be growing pains associated with doing this. We can’t do it all at once.”

Ron Johnson​

Similar to Scott, Sen. Ron Johnson (R-Wis.) has suggested that Congress regularly renew the entitlement programs. However, Johnson has proposed that it be done on an annual basis.

“I’ve been saying for as long as I’ve been here that we should transfer everything, put everything on budget so we have to consider it if every year. I’ve said that consistently, it’s nothing new,” Johnson told “The Regular Joe Show” podcast last August.

Lindsey Graham​

Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) suggested in a debate in June that a bipartisan compromise on the issue will likely mean that “people like me are going to have to take a little less and pay a little more in.”

What Republicans have actually said about cuts to Social Security and Medicare

President Biden drew a raucous response from Republicans during his State of the Union address on Tuesday night when he said some GOP lawmakers want to cut Social Security and Medicare. “Anybody wh…

thehill.com

Sunset and people like me are going to take less. Believe me, when they take the Senate and the House majority (if they do), they can do anything they want with SS and Original Medicare.

Obama did it to get Obamacare passed

 

[Hutch Starskey]

See Post #498.

And your solution that is achievable prior to the SS Trust Fund being depleted and benefits cut/reduced for seniors - you now those people paying into the system for 45 years - is...

What exactly?

WW

I just told you.

 

[WorldWatcher]

I just told you.

You means "Either we all pay, take a cut or both."?

That's not a plan, that's a bumper sticker.

WW

 

[Hutch Starskey]

You means "Either we all pay, take a cut or both."?

That's not a plan, that's a bumper sticker.

WW

So only “rich” people should pay to save your benefit?

Justify that.

 

[struth]

You changed the basis from "income that is taxable" to comparing "percent of income"

Mathematically there is no denying that those earning less that $160K in wages pay more in SS tax - as a percentage of wages - than someone earning $320K in wages.

WW

of total wages…but that’s silly since the law on taxes..taxable wages

 

[healthmyths]

Exactly. SS is easy to fix. Raise the cap, and add a year to the ages,
The SS fix is tougher.

My recommendation is to add a new Federal Sales Tax of about 4%. I don't see any other way to raise enough money.
Also, I want to see another "Grace Commission" to eliminate waste, and duplication in the Federal government.

Where did you come up with 4% sales tax?
Total GDP of USA in 2022 is $23,320,000,000,000 United States GDP - 2022 Data - 2023 Forecast - 1960-2021 Historical - Chart - News
Now 4% is $932,800,000,000 .
Supposedly SS will need
For example, to make Social Security solvent for the next 75 years, legislators could raise the tax rate from 6.2% to 8.1%.
According to current actuarial projections, this would fix the problem until 2095. So, it is fixable, but painful.
The federal government collected revenues of $3.5 trillion in 2019—equal to about 16.3 percent of gross domestic product

How to fix Social Security? It's political but it can be done

Social Security remains beloved and holds bipartisan support among American citizens. Yet the program faces an insolvency crisis. Doug Arnold, an emeritus professor at the Princeton University School of Public and International Affairs, outlines workable solutions in his new book.

www.princeton.edu

Of the gross revenue to the Federal government 36% ($1,260,000,000,000) comes from Medicare/SS.
So if the tax was raise to 8.1% that would add $23.940,000,000.. versus where did you come with 4% which would be over
38.9 TIMES what is needed. So where did you get 4%???

 

[Grumblenuts]

Except he isn't

True. Right now he's clearly decided that (politically) he can't get away with it. He's been "made to" do the right thing. Same as many times before. It's been clear for decades that he would cut S.S. and Medicare if he could. Biden is just a narcissistic asshole. Anita Hill knows. He'd love nothing more than to pull a Clinton / Obama move and screw over those that brung 'im bigtime. Loves saying just the right things then doing the exact opposite. His pick for Labor Secretary says it all.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Where did you come up with 4% sales tax?
Total GDP of USA in 2022 is $23,320,000,000,000 United States GDP - 2022 Data - 2023 Forecast - 1960-2021 Historical - Chart - News
Now 4% is $932,800,000,000 .
Supposedly SS will need
For example, to make Social Security solvent for the next 75 years, legislators could raise the tax rate from 6.2% to 8.1%.
According to current actuarial projections, this would fix the problem until 2095. So, it is fixable, but painful.
The federal government collected revenues of $3.5 trillion in 2019—equal to about 16.3 percent of gross domestic product

How to fix Social Security? It's political but it can be done

Social Security remains beloved and holds bipartisan support among American citizens. Yet the program faces an insolvency crisis. Doug Arnold, an emeritus professor at the Princeton University School of Public and International Affairs, outlines workable solutions in his new book.

www.princeton.edu

Of the gross revenue to the Federal government 36% ($1,260,000,000,000) comes from Medicare/SS.
So if the tax was raise to 8.1% that would add $23.940,000,000.. versus where did you come with 4% which would be over
38.9 TIMES what is needed. So where did you get 4%???
View attachment 756934

Good point. Clearly, neither a "sales" nor "payroll" tax can be logically characterized as "fair" to begin with. Sales taxes, being perfectly flat and collected only at point of sale, punish the poor and working classes egregiously. To the rich they are a nuisance at worst, adding up to a tiny percentage of their buying power and holdings. Payroll, as pointed out ad nauseum here, don't even necessary touch the "richest" because they're never forced to do any actual work. But do they collect S.S.? In reality, of course they do.

Take Bill & Melinda Gates' first daughter, for example. When not riding horses she's getting ready to graduate as an MD from the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai. So presuming she hasn't already been paying payroll taxes as a ghost employee of the family foundation, she'll definitely have to pay them if she ever "works" as a doctor. In any
case, no matter how much BS the media parrots about her parents not leaving her billions, she's set for life. Never had to lift a finger, never will. But like most everyone who's sane, she'll work because she can and wants to. She'll likely pay plenty into FICA one way or another before reaching retirement age. Point being, cap or no cap, makes no difference to her. She's set regardless. Likely won't pay anywhere near as high a percentage of her income into S.S. as some poor schmuck working his ass off at WalMart. Will still collect her S.S. at max. rate.

This is corporate capitalist nirvana. First, lie your ass off. Then -- Cut taxes for the rich. Gut social programs. Punish those who have to work, including those who can't. Rinse & Repeat.. How did you think they got so rich?

 

[Aldo Raine]

6.2% on their entire salary.

Because $160K is to low a cap, it should be at a minimum doubled to $320K and probably raised to $500K then indexed to inflation.

WW

At the very least. Or the cap can be removed!

 

[struth]

At the very least. Or the cap can be removed!

how do you think that helps? do you know how SS works?