Dark Matter; Real? Or Imagined?

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Something that constitutes 85% of the universe shouldn't be that hard to find.

Ding has spoken! Haha

As it turns out, something that interacts with gravity but not with normal matter or light might actually be pretty hard to find.

 

[ding]

The fact that scientists can’t tell you what it consists of ought to be the first clue it doesn’t exist.

"Something" certainly exists ... else how do you explain we effect we do observe ... what is the cause? ...

Are you suggesting atoms didn't exist until we discovery protons and electrons? ...

I don't think so. I am suggesting that dark matter was imagined to make the world make sense. It's nebulous at best.

Yes ding, that is how hypotheses work. Else we would not need them. Evolution was also "imagined" to make the world make sense.

And again, no scientists thinks it is anything like what we know as "matter", save for interacting with gravity. So the name "matter" was chosen for convenience and convention. Scientists are also looking for solutions in gravity theory that don't involve a strange new type of matter. So they are actually working to rule out dark "matter", not just complaining about it on a message board.

It's a fudge factor. It is nebulous at best. The simplest explanation is that we don't fully understand what we are observing and there is no need to make up imaginary matter/energy to explain the acceleration.

 

[ding]

Something that constitutes 85% of the universe shouldn't be that hard to find.

Ding has spoken! Haha

As it turns out, something that interacts with gravity but not with normal matter or light might actually be pretty hard to find.

Yes, that's what I believe. It's a fudge factor. It's totally made up. It's like the global warming hysteria. It's very convenient to invent a new kind of energy that does not coalesce into electrons, protons and neutrons.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

It's a fudge factor.

What scientists call, "a hypothesis". What someone on a strange, attention begging bender calls, "a fudge factor".

 

[esalla]

Something that constitutes 85% of the universe shouldn't be that hard to find.

Ding has spoken! Haha

As it turns out, something that interacts with gravity but not with normal matter or light might actually be pretty hard to find.

Yes, that's what I believe. It's a fudge factor. It's totally made up. It's like the global warming hysteria. It's very convenient to invent a new kind of energy that does not coalesce into electrons, protons and neutrons.

Dark matter is not made up, but it is merely an explanation for the unexplainable. So dark matter might be real or another explanation might be found.

But you will never know

 

[ding]

It's a fudge factor.

What scientists call, "a hypothesis". What someone on a strange, attention begging bender calls, "a fudge factor".

That's good, make it personal. Run along.

 

[ding]

Something that constitutes 85% of the universe shouldn't be that hard to find.

Ding has spoken! Haha

As it turns out, something that interacts with gravity but not with normal matter or light might actually be pretty hard to find.

Yes, that's what I believe. It's a fudge factor. It's totally made up. It's like the global warming hysteria. It's very convenient to invent a new kind of energy that does not coalesce into electrons, protons and neutrons.

Dark matter is not made up, but it is merely an explanation for the unexplainable. So dark matter might be real or another explanation might be found.

But you will never know

I will know the truth if they discover the true explanation for their observations.

 

[esalla]

Something that constitutes 85% of the universe shouldn't be that hard to find.

Ding has spoken! Haha

As it turns out, something that interacts with gravity but not with normal matter or light might actually be pretty hard to find.

Yes, that's what I believe. It's a fudge factor. It's totally made up. It's like the global warming hysteria. It's very convenient to invent a new kind of energy that does not coalesce into electrons, protons and neutrons.

Dark matter is not made up, but it is merely an explanation for the unexplainable. So dark matter might be real or another explanation might be found.

But you will never know

I will know the truth if they discover the true explanation for their observations.

What is the truth?

 

[ding]

Something that constitutes 85% of the universe shouldn't be that hard to find.

Ding has spoken! Haha

As it turns out, something that interacts with gravity but not with normal matter or light might actually be pretty hard to find.

Yes, that's what I believe. It's a fudge factor. It's totally made up. It's like the global warming hysteria. It's very convenient to invent a new kind of energy that does not coalesce into electrons, protons and neutrons.

Dark matter is not made up, but it is merely an explanation for the unexplainable. So dark matter might be real or another explanation might be found.

But you will never know

I will know the truth if they discover the true explanation for their observations.

What is the truth?

We'll see.

 

[james bond]

P

....

What are the evidences of dark matter?

Still what Vera Rubin found out in context of the rotation of the galaxy Andromeda is a very impressing question, which makes plaubsible the existence of "dark matter" (better to say: "unknown mass" - or "still unknown source of something what looks like gravitational force").

Here an example for the galaxy Messier 33:

Rotation curve of spiral galaxy Messier 33 (yellow and blue points with error bars), and a predicted one from distribution of the visible matter (gray line). The discrepancy between the two curves can be accounted for by adding a dark matter halo surrounding the galaxy.

Otherwise known as a fudge factor.

May I ask, why you say such an unbelievable stupid nonsense? Do you love pub brawls?

The path velocity far from the bulge of a galaxy should be proportional in an idealized Kepler system to the squareroot of the reziprocal radius. Why is it not?

What type of matter is dark matter?
Of which particles consist dark matter?
How does dark matter arise?
What are the evidences of dark matter?

You don't understand what you ask and why you ask this. Think about what I said - or let it be.

I do understand what I ask and why I ask it. If they are correct and dark matter accounts for 85% of the matter in the universe then these are important questions.

no comment

Hence, it's a fudge factor.

What's nonsense. To say so has more to do with psychology, sociology and politics than mathematics and physics.

Short: Explain why in a galaxy the path velocity is not proportional to ~ (1/radius)^1/2. Why exists such a huge difference in the expected values of an ideal Kepler system and the real measured values? Which other kind of formula is to use? "Dark matter" means in this context - as far as I am able to see - the formulas are correct, but there exists in reality indeed an additional gravity force. To use the word "dark" instead of "unknown" is perhaps just simple a poetical mistake. You can use instead of "dark matter" also an expression like "unknown gravity force" - or "gravity force, which comes from something, what we still don't know".

Which particles make up dark matter?

We don't.know. in fact, it is only called "matter" for convenience, to denote the fact that it appears to be interacting via gravity. "Matter" may be a misnomer. Scientists know this.

The fact that scientists can’t tell you what it consists of ought to be the first clue it doesn’t exist.

Well, something has to be out there to make galaxies look that way, the CMB more dense than it should be, velocity of stars not slowing down but remaining constant, and more.

The scientists don't know if it's baryonic or non-baryonic. Something has to be out there tho.

If it doesn't exist, then it will be even more of a mystery. Nothing shows that is the case. They have to be be very small invisible particles. How small is small?

It's one of the top questions that cosmologists are trying to answer and they're spending billions to figure it out.

 

[james bond]

What is the truth?

Lol. You have to talk like it's religion with ding.

 

[zaangalewa]

abe toi see a casuels

... The presence of energy/matter creates space and time. So the absence of space and time is nothingness. ...

Why do you think space and time create energy - or energy creates space and time? Where do you see a causal process? I could perhaps imagine that space is only a special form of energy - and time is perhaps only a special flow of energy - (within a meta-time and meta-space) - but I'm not able to see a causal structure. As far as I know says the theory of relativity that space, time, energy and all natural laws were born in a first planksecond, when the universe had the size of a first plankmeter. "Suddenly" everything was here. This was about 13.8 billion years ago, how our last approximation tells us. This was "creation" - afterwards started "evolution". For example froze out inevitably electrons, when the universe became colder, because of the expansion of the universe. And I was evitably born some years later with a lot of good luck for me and perhaps some bad luck for others. About 2020 years ago was born someone who was more importnat - thatsd why we celebrate his bírthday every year.

 

[ding]

abe toi see a casuels

... The presence of energy/matter creates space and time. So the absence of space and time is nothingness. ...

Why do you think space and time create energy - or energy creates space and time? Where do you see a causal process? I could perhaps imagine that space is only a special form of energy - and time is perhaps only a special flow of energy - (within a meta-time and meta-space) - but I'm not able to see a causal structure. As far as I know says the theory of relativity that space, time, energy and all natural laws were born in a first planksecond, when the universe had the size of a first plankmeter. "Suddenly" everything was here. This was about 13.8 billion years ago, how our last approximation tells us. This was "creation" - afterwards started "evolution". For example froze out inevitably electrons, when the universe became colder, because of the expansion of the universe. And I was evitably born some years later with a lot of good luck for me and perhaps some bad luck for others. About 2020 years ago was born someone who was more importnat - thatsd why we celebrate his bírthday every year.

Gravity. The presence of energy creates space and time because of gravity. No energy. No gravity. No space and time. Energy cannot exist without creating space and time because a consequence of energy is gravity, which perfectly balances the positive energy of matter which is what allows a universe to be created from nothing without violating the law of conservation because the net energy of the universe is zero.

 

[zaangalewa]

Gravity. The presence of energy creates space and time because of gravity.

Gravity is a form of energy. How is gravity able to create space and time out of a position of nowhere and nowhen? Where and when is this position or whatelse exists instead of this?

 

[ding]

Gravity. The presence of energy creates space and time because of gravity.

Gravity is a form of energy. How is gravity able to create space and time out of a position of nowhere and nowhen? Where and when is this position or whatelse exists instead of this?

I don't see gravity creating space and time per se. I see gravity as a consequence of space and time which is a consequence of the presence of energy/matter. So the presence of energy/matter is what creates space and time. Like I said before... no matter/energy, no gravity, no space and time.

What else exists instead or outside or before this? Existence, God. Or if you prefer a less philosophical answer... probably radiation. Whatever it is, it is not energy or matter as we know it. It is beyond energy and matter. Consciousness without form.

 

[zaangalewa]

Gravity. The presence of energy creates space and time because of gravity.

Gravity is a form of energy. How is gravity able to create space and time out of a position of nowhere and nowhen? Where and when is this position or whatelse exists instead of this?

I don't see gravity creating space and time per se. I see gravity as a consequence of space and time which is a consequence of the presence of energy/matter. So the presence of energy/matter is what creates space and time. Like I said before... no matter/energy, no gravity, no space and time.

What else exists instead or outside or before this?

Nothing - specially existed no "before" before time started.

Existence, God. Or if you prefer a less philosophical answer... probably radiation.

It existed no time, no space, no energy and no natural laws - but radiation (which is a form of energy) ?

Whatever it is, it is not energy or matter as we know it. It is beyond energy and matter. Consciousness without form.

God is consciousness without form? What do you say, god? Are you consciousness without form? ... What means "If you like me to be without hands!". No - I don't laugh now. ... But okay - a little smile: For a probably existing and/or not existing entity I have to agree that this was not one of your very worst jokes, father. ...

 

[esalla]

Gravity. The presence of energy creates space and time because of gravity.

Gravity is a form of energy. How is gravity able to create space and time out of a position of nowhere and nowhen? Where and when is this position or whatelse exists instead of this?

I don't see gravity creating space and time per se. I see gravity as a consequence of space and time which is a consequence of the presence of energy/matter. So the presence of energy/matter is what creates space and time. Like I said before... no matter/energy, no gravity, no space and time.

What else exists instead or outside or before this?

Nothing - specially existed no "before" before time started.

Existence, God. Or if you prefer a less philosophical answer... probably radiation.

It existed no time, no space, no energy and no natural laws - but radiation (which is a form of energy) ?

Whatever it is, it is not energy or matter as we know it. It is beyond energy and matter. Consciousness without form.

God is consciousness without form? What do you say, god? Are you consciousness without form? ... What means "If you like me to be without hands!". No - I don't laugh now. ... But okay - a little smile: For a probably existing and/or not existing entity I have to agree that this was not one of your very worst jokes, father. ...

God created the DNA that makes you what you are, whether Ding is a schizzo or not

 

[ding]

Gravity. The presence of energy creates space and time because of gravity.

Gravity is a form of energy. How is gravity able to create space and time out of a position of nowhere and nowhen? Where and when is this position or whatelse exists instead of this?

I don't see gravity creating space and time per se. I see gravity as a consequence of space and time which is a consequence of the presence of energy/matter. So the presence of energy/matter is what creates space and time. Like I said before... no matter/energy, no gravity, no space and time.

What else exists instead or outside or before this?

Nothing - specially existed no "before" before time started.

Existence, God. Or if you prefer a less philosophical answer... probably radiation.

It existed no time, no space, no energy and no natural laws - but radiation (which is a form of energy) ?

Whatever it is, it is not energy or matter as we know it. It is beyond energy and matter. Consciousness without form.

God is consciousness without form? What do you say, god? Are you consciousness without form? ... What means "If you like me to be without hands!". No - I don't laugh now. ... But okay - a little smile: For a probably existing and/or not existing entity I have to agree that this was not one of your very worst jokes, father. ...

To say nothing existed before our time or there was no before because our time did not exist is an idiotic argument. Our time did not exist. That's as far as you can go with that argument.

Our universe should have only been filled with radiation; no matter, no energy to perform work and no life. If there are other "universes" outside of our space and time, they are most likely filled with radiation and have no space or time. In other words, they are no things. So what exists outside of our universe are no things. You being a thing, can't possibly relate to no things. God is no thing.

 

[zaangalewa]

Gravity. The presence of energy creates space and time because of gravity.

Gravity is a form of energy. How is gravity able to create space and time out of a position of nowhere and nowhen? Where and when is this position or whatelse exists instead of this?

I don't see gravity creating space and time per se. I see gravity as a consequence of space and time which is a consequence of the presence of energy/matter. So the presence of energy/matter is what creates space and time. Like I said before... no matter/energy, no gravity, no space and time.

What else exists instead or outside or before this?

Nothing - specially existed no "before" before time started.

Existence, God. Or if you prefer a less philosophical answer... probably radiation.

It existed no time, no space, no energy and no natural laws - but radiation (which is a form of energy) ?

Whatever it is, it is not energy or matter as we know it. It is beyond energy and matter. Consciousness without form.

God is consciousness without form? What do you say, god? Are you consciousness without form? ... What means "If you like me to be without hands!". No - I don't laugh now. ... But okay - a little smile: For a probably existing and/or not existing entity I have to agree that this was not one of your very worst jokes, father. ...

To say nothing existed before our time or there was no before because our time did not exist is an idiotic argument. ...

Idiotic or not - that's the only thing we are able to say about this not existing time. If it smells like nothing - looks like nothing - feels like nothing - and so on: Why not to call it "nothing", if this is the only thing we are able to say and to think about in a realistic perspective?

 

[zaangalewa]

Gravity. The presence of energy creates space and time because of gravity.

Gravity is a form of energy. How is gravity able to create space and time out of a position of nowhere and nowhen? Where and when is this position or whatelse exists instead of this?

I don't see gravity creating space and time per se. I see gravity as a consequence of space and time which is a consequence of the presence of energy/matter. So the presence of energy/matter is what creates space and time. Like I said before... no matter/energy, no gravity, no space and time.

What else exists instead or outside or before this?

Nothing - specially existed no "before" before time started.

Existence, God. Or if you prefer a less philosophical answer... probably radiation.

It existed no time, no space, no energy and no natural laws - but radiation (which is a form of energy) ?

Whatever it is, it is not energy or matter as we know it. It is beyond energy and matter. Consciousness without form.

God is consciousness without form? What do you say, god? Are you consciousness without form? ... What means "If you like me to be without hands!". No - I don't laugh now. ... But okay - a little smile: For a probably existing and/or not existing entity I have to agree that this was not one of your very worst jokes, father. ...

God created the DNA that makes you what you are, whether Ding is a schizzo or not

Let me say it this way: It was for example inevitable that electrons froze out in our universe - but I am for example here because I am an answer of this what had happened in history before I was here. This laws follow different degrees of freedom. If my biological father for example had shot down Hitler or if my biological mother would had been murdered in a concentration camp then I would not live and I would miss nothing. And DNA is for me in general only a thing which has to do with a more or less sane body. In this context the environment is very important. Blue eyes are better for the life in the North of Europe for example. They are not better for to the life in the South of Europe.