Democracy In Egypt Is Bad For The United States

[mudwhistle]

Mudwhistle simply is whining.

No. I'm just trying to beat some sense into your thick skull.

Problem is all that's in there is bone and bong-resin.

 

[mudwhistle]

That link is fact and opinion. The writer should have proof-read the article first, the 21st of February is a week away (probably a typo). I know about the Brotherhood and the history is spot on. But, still think that the Egyptian population is the most westernized arabic country there is and it will be a tough sell.

The young/educated/independent women won't take it and if they are forced to flee Egypt . . . the man-to-woman ratio will really suck.

I'm sure the women are gonna stand up to thugs and guns, just like they do in Saudi Arabia, and everywhere else that is under Sharia Law.

Yes, what a feather in the Turban of Islamic radicals if Egypt were to fall into their hands.


Oh.....no that could never ever happen....because the press and Obama tells me it won't happen. DON'T WORRY!!!

These people are more sneaky about what they do then you give them credit for. Everything will be going along fine, the BOOM, they start protesting wages or some stupid shit and shut down the Suez Canal. Then they'll start blackmailing us to bail on Israel. Then more demands and more.

I wish things would go great, but I'm a realist, not one of your pie-in-the-sky fairytale dreaming Obama zombies.

I'm sure the Brotherhood will try to undermine everything. But the economy was crap before the revolution, many were young, UNEMPLOYED, and held college degrees. The same situation we got here.
There were more English-speaking man (woman)-on-the-street interviews compared to say Iraq or Iran. The man-to-woman comment was a joke.

The Egyptian revolution was their fairytale. We'll see what happens in the next chapter . . .

I know.

Ever notice how Obama talks about educating our youth all of the time, but he just doesn't get around to how they're gonna find jobs.

Imagine thousands of unemployed college graduates holding their degree in one hand and their dicks in the other. No jobs anywhere.

Sound like Egypt, doesn't it?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Mudwhistle simply is whining.

No. I'm just trying to beat some sense into your thick skull.

Problem is all that's in there is bone and bong-resin.

You are dead ass wrong on this, Mud. The Egyptians will control their future, not us. We should influence where we can, but the bad old days of Guatemala and Iran and Vietnam and Iraq are gone forever.

We try what you want, and the rest of the world will not tolerate it.

And for somone who screams about the will of the people here being denied, you sure deny that to the Egyptian people.

No way in the world we want your thinking enshrined in DC.

 

[idb]

Treating all Mideastern nations the same is not a good idea. Best to show the contrast between Egypt and Iran. Bringing the current government to its knees in Iran is a good goal. Indirectly supporting elements within Iran to meet that goal is a priority.

It's obvious that bringing down an ally is more important to Obama then bringing down an enemy.

Mubarak was an ally. Iran is an enemy.

His silence speaks volumes.

There's no other way a rational person can see it.

What was the US to do then?
Encourage Mubarak to crush a popular uprising with force?
Maybe send in the Blackhawks to help him out?

Maybe advising him that the writing was on the wall, putting an arm around his shoulders and suggesting that he leave with some dignity was the best thing one friend could do for another.

 

[idb]

You're a liberal hack that gobbles up Obama's propaganda and parrots it to anyone who'll listen.

So they didn't think the Egyptian protesters looked like tools of the West?

Anderson Cooper got several wacks up side the head from folks that were yelling anti-American bullshit. They seemed to think we were helping the revolt. They were right.

Now when it comes to an enemy Obama wants to play it safe. Instead of encouragement he disappears and wants to talk about his fucked up budget. He helps bring down an ally, a flawed ally none the less, but an ally. But our enemies, naw. Doesn't have the nuts to utter a word.

While an ally was in trouble he wouldn't shut up. He repeatedly said that the process must start NOW. I remember everyone in the administration repeating that word. Iran, later, Egypt, now.

And what does this show our friends and our enemies???

It shows them that he's gutless. He'll sneak around and undermine our allies but our enemies.....well he's just too damned scared to say, "Mr Gorbachev, TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!!!!!"

Let's not get all Boehner (could not resist) now . . . nothing against him or the Republicans.

Take a look at the big picture.

Egypts movement was in their favor, the protesters were an overwhelming force to get Mubarak out and for Democratic changes. I'm not going out on a limb by stating they're the most educated/civil Middle Eastern country . . . besides maybe Israel . . . and therefore have an advantage over others.
We knew that we could not support the dictatorship vs. that. Do you think we should have gone "all-in" with Mubarak? It would have been the worst case scenario. "The U.S. supports Mubarak". Effigys of Obama/the Stars and Stripes would be burning and the Muslim Brotherhood minority would roll with it. It would have been a Brotherhood majority that kicked Mubarak out.

Iran is a different ball game. The protestors and the goverment/military has had a few weeks to prepare and learn from Egypt. The government is more extreme and we barely have any influence over there. Plus they have organized thugs who have no issues going ballistic on the protesters.
What are we supposed to do? Invade Iran? Put a Black Ops in to assainate Irans Heads of State and Mullah? Do you really think they give a *#@%? about what we say regarding Iran? Iran does not have the masses like Egypt and I'm sure the goverment has put a vice on the media/internet to prevent large gatherings. They have had time to learn what works and what they can get away with.
Yemen is another prob. There is a strong Al-Queda influence there and the protesters are not looking for democracy. At least not like Egypt.
Bahrain is an ally and a strategic area for us with the ports. I'm concerned with that and if the U.S. miltary aid is requested . . . that would be tricky.

What does Obama actions (or lack of) show for the rest of our "allies" and enemies?

I know that Saudi Arabia should be considered an ally even though they produced Bin Laden, some of the 9/11 hijackers, and a couple of sheiks that may financially support questionable groups. We invested a lot in them. From training to military hardware.

Likewise with Pakistan, although some of the allegiances are not for the U.S. and there is a stronger Taliban support presence there.

Both countries are dicey should an uprising come up. Not so much the Saudis, because they got the mullah and lots of it. But the Pakis might be ugly.

Each country is case by case.

Been to Somalia and the Persian Gulf for three and half years. I know what Iran is about.

Noted.

In my opinion the Obama Administration handled the situation poorly. Obama should have acted like he has with Iran. My problem is with his double-standards here. Obama made the United States an even bigger target with his actions. The Muslim Street hates us even more because of his Administrations meddling in their affairs. I kept yelling at the television, "Why doesn't he just shut the fuck up. You're only making things worse!!!!"

He didn't show the kind of diplomacy the situation required. Not all of his people were on the same sheet of music. They appeared ill-prepared and amateurish. Because of that we'll pay a price with the people of Egypt. Many of them will resent our involvement. In 09' Obama was welcome in Cairo. Not today.

I just wish he would show the same concern for the people of Iran as he did for Egypt, but he didn't. Everyone deserves to live in peace, not just one country. Freedom is everyone's right, not something for this person but not for another. The simple fact that nobody cares about the people of Iran at this time is what condemns them. No pressure is being brought to bare on them so they have no reason to change. They even confessed that because the international community doesn't care they don't feel like giving their people a thing. Who cares that people are getting killed, thrown in prison, and tortured as we speak. It's not our problem.

The US has no influence or leverage in Iran though.
How would it look for you to be making statements or threats that were completely ignored and/or ridiculed and that everyone knew to be empty?
It would make you look even weaker and more innefectual in the Middle East than you already are.

 

[idb]

Keep thinking that dipshit.

It's moving even faster then I thought. The Muslim Brotherhood is forming their own party and will be involved in elections. Let's see how long it takes for them to turn the people against Israel. I'm told 65% already are in favor of scrapping the Camp David peace accord. That is not good.

The Muslim Brotherhood

WHO TOLD YOU, you constitution hater? Bigrebnc? For heaven's sake, Mudwhistle, let's figure a way to direct their foreign policy. Don't you get it? The Egyptians threw out a dictator. If they want a democracy, we are stuck with it. So, what do we do? Please do not suggest nukes. The British and French would nuke us if we did that.

You constitution hater???
Jesus, you sound like a nut-job.

Democracy has nothing to do with a friggen constitution. Only the formation of a Republic leads to a constitution.

The problem here is they may want a Democracy but like I've pointed out Democracy is just a flowery term for LET'S STEP ALL OVER THE RIGHTS OF THE MINORITY. If we had a Democracy here we never would have had a civil rights movement. It wouldn't have mattered. The minority has no power. Once the majority in Egypt decides on the Muslim Brotherhood the rest of the population will have no say.

We're not a republic and we have a constitution............................just sayin'...

 

[BrianH]

Let's face it. They hate us. No election in any Middle Eastern country is going to put in place a government that is friendly to our country or our primary ally, Israel.

It also doesn't help that Obama has been actively running this revolution from the White House. They don't want to give the impression this is an American operation but it's getting harder and harder to hide the fact. Guess it just depends on what people are willing to believe.

What's the difference between the kind of government takeover and regime-building Bush did in Iraq and Obama is doing in Egypt?

Why is Egypt of more strategic importance then Iraq is?

We've got some serious idiots currently running our government and we're powerless to stop them from screwing the pooch. What they're doing today will effect our lives for decades to come. It could mean the deaths of thousands of Israelis.

The strategic importance of Egypt is that our ships carrying OIL and other GOODS travel through the Suez Canal (Controlled by Egypt) every day. But that's our fault...we should get our noses out of everyone's affairs and learn to be self-sustaining on our own land rather than relying on other countries.

 

[mudwhistle]

Mudwhistle simply is whining.

No. I'm just trying to beat some sense into your thick skull.

Problem is all that's in there is bone and bong-resin.

You are dead ass wrong on this, Mud. The Egyptians will control their future, not us. We should influence where we can, but the bad old days of Guatemala and Iran and Vietnam and Iraq are gone forever.

We try what you want, and the rest of the world will not tolerate it.

And for somone who screams about the will of the people here being denied, you sure deny that to the Egyptian people.

No way in the world we want your thinking enshrined in DC.

You're a fool. A pathetic mindnumb zombie. You failed to see the Elephant in the room.

If you and I have little or no say in who becomes our leaders, how much less do the people of Egypt have a say in who will be theirs, what policies will become law.

They'll be manipulated and tricked into voting for people that say they have their needs in mind but in the long run will only turn around and give them the shaft. We've been seeing it in America, a country that is said to be one of the most autonomous countries in the world.

All you have to do to get people to vote for you is play on their emotions. That's how Obama got elected and that's how the Muslim Brotherhood will gain power. The unemployed can be fooled into voting for just about anything they're promised.

I guess this is why Democrats love the unemployed so much. The more the better. This is why they love to talk about education. Get them pissed off at the United States by filling their heads full of nonsense and next thing you know you've got a revolution. Bring down all of those rich fat-cats. Make em pay for their crimes.....imaginary or otherwise.

 

[mudwhistle]

Treating all Mideastern nations the same is not a good idea. Best to show the contrast between Egypt and Iran. Bringing the current government to its knees in Iran is a good goal. Indirectly supporting elements within Iran to meet that goal is a priority.

It's obvious that bringing down an ally is more important to Obama then bringing down an enemy.

Mubarak was an ally. Iran is an enemy.

His silence speaks volumes.

There's no other way a rational person can see it.

What was the US to do then?
Encourage Mubarak to crush a popular uprising with force?
Maybe send in the Blackhawks to help him out?

Maybe advising him that the writing was on the wall, putting an arm around his shoulders and suggesting that he leave with some dignity was the best thing one friend could do for another.

I don't think all of the calls for him to step down now in the world press helped.

You suggest that we act diplomatic and keep the talks private. Well it's too late for that.

 

[editec]

So far I think that the US position regarding Egypt has been sage.

Now it seldom happens that I completely approve of US foreign policy, so that's sayin' something.

 

[mudwhistle]

Let's not get all Boehner (could not resist) now . . . nothing against him or the Republicans.

Take a look at the big picture.

Egypts movement was in their favor, the protesters were an overwhelming force to get Mubarak out and for Democratic changes. I'm not going out on a limb by stating they're the most educated/civil Middle Eastern country . . . besides maybe Israel . . . and therefore have an advantage over others.
We knew that we could not support the dictatorship vs. that. Do you think we should have gone "all-in" with Mubarak? It would have been the worst case scenario. "The U.S. supports Mubarak". Effigys of Obama/the Stars and Stripes would be burning and the Muslim Brotherhood minority would roll with it. It would have been a Brotherhood majority that kicked Mubarak out.

Iran is a different ball game. The protestors and the goverment/military has had a few weeks to prepare and learn from Egypt. The government is more extreme and we barely have any influence over there. Plus they have organized thugs who have no issues going ballistic on the protesters.
What are we supposed to do? Invade Iran? Put a Black Ops in to assainate Irans Heads of State and Mullah? Do you really think they give a *#@%? about what we say regarding Iran? Iran does not have the masses like Egypt and I'm sure the goverment has put a vice on the media/internet to prevent large gatherings. They have had time to learn what works and what they can get away with.
Yemen is another prob. There is a strong Al-Queda influence there and the protesters are not looking for democracy. At least not like Egypt.
Bahrain is an ally and a strategic area for us with the ports. I'm concerned with that and if the U.S. miltary aid is requested . . . that would be tricky.

What does Obama actions (or lack of) show for the rest of our "allies" and enemies?

I know that Saudi Arabia should be considered an ally even though they produced Bin Laden, some of the 9/11 hijackers, and a couple of sheiks that may financially support questionable groups. We invested a lot in them. From training to military hardware.

Likewise with Pakistan, although some of the allegiances are not for the U.S. and there is a stronger Taliban support presence there.

Both countries are dicey should an uprising come up. Not so much the Saudis, because they got the mullah and lots of it. But the Pakis might be ugly.

Each country is case by case.

Been to Somalia and the Persian Gulf for three and half years. I know what Iran is about.

Noted.

In my opinion the Obama Administration handled the situation poorly. Obama should have acted like he has with Iran. My problem is with his double-standards here. Obama made the United States an even bigger target with his actions. The Muslim Street hates us even more because of his Administrations meddling in their affairs. I kept yelling at the television, "Why doesn't he just shut the fuck up. You're only making things worse!!!!"

He didn't show the kind of diplomacy the situation required. Not all of his people were on the same sheet of music. They appeared ill-prepared and amateurish. Because of that we'll pay a price with the people of Egypt. Many of them will resent our involvement. In 09' Obama was welcome in Cairo. Not today.

I just wish he would show the same concern for the people of Iran as he did for Egypt, but he didn't. Everyone deserves to live in peace, not just one country. Freedom is everyone's right, not something for this person but not for another. The simple fact that nobody cares about the people of Iran at this time is what condemns them. No pressure is being brought to bare on them so they have no reason to change. They even confessed that because the international community doesn't care they don't feel like giving their people a thing. Who cares that people are getting killed, thrown in prison, and tortured as we speak. It's not our problem.

The US has no influence or leverage in Iran though.
How would it look for you to be making statements or threats that were completely ignored and/or ridiculed and that everyone knew to be empty?
It would make you look even weaker and more innefectual in the Middle East than you already are.

Kind of like the threats President Ackmadinigadwhatever constantly throws at us???

Ever notice that it's a common practice in the Middle East to throw out threats and then negotiate behind the scenes? It's a face-saving tactic that is used often.

 

[mudwhistle]

So far I think that the US position regarding Egypt has been sage.

Now it seldom happens that I completely approve of US foreign policy, so that's sayin' something.

It doesn't hurt that there's a Democrat in the White House. That had nothing to do with it of course.

I think Obama ether took advantage of the situation or he knew going in what was gonna be the outcome. Obama has shown in the past he hasn't the balls to be a leader. He does however like to jump on the wagon and start acting like he's driving the thing.

Rumor has it Mubarak is in very poor health and was ready to go anyway. Obama showed no foresight nor tact in his approach. He chose to trash him in public. In the Middle East that is unforgivable. That's what you do to your enemies, not your allies.

 

[mudwhistle]

Surprise!!!!

An 8 member group will be writing the new Egyprtian constitution.

A member of the Muslim Brotherhood is in that group.

Reports out of Cairo are that it should take 10 days to write it.

WOW!!

Color me surprised!!!!

From my experience it takes months for a Democracy to decide the color of shit much less write a constitution. It will take a week to print copies of the constitution yet they think they can get it done in that little time?

 

[editec]

I think it interesting that Mubarak was already sick and about ready to go.

This does make me wonder if perhaps the Military decided to allow the protestors to drive him out just so that the military would be deciding who was going to take over instead of Mubarak.

This is all pure speculation on my part, incidently.

But if the top brass wanted to jettison Mubarak's control over who took top post when he left office, then allowing the people to drive him out would be a great way for them to pull of a coup d etat and seem like they weren't in charge, would it not?

 

[saveliberty]

They got puters, them mo bile phones and fax mochines in Egypt. Is it really that hard to plagerize someone else's Constitution and change a few words around? It ain't 1775.

Oh look, a wheel!

*throws away*

We'll just reinvent that later.

 

[mudwhistle]

They got puters, them mo bile phones and fax mochines in Egypt. Is it really that hard to plagerize someone else's Constitution and change a few words around? It ain't 1775.

Oh look, a wheel!

*throws away*

We'll just reinvent that later.

LMAO

I thnk it's already written.

It's called the Koran

 

[P F Tinmore]

They got puters, them mo bile phones and fax mochines in Egypt. Is it really that hard to plagerize someone else's Constitution and change a few words around? It ain't 1775.

Oh look, a wheel!

*throws away*

We'll just reinvent that later.

They could use this one with little modification.

http://www.usaid.gov/wbg/misc/Amended_Basic_Law.pdf

 

[idb]

It's obvious that bringing down an ally is more important to Obama then bringing down an enemy.

Mubarak was an ally. Iran is an enemy.

His silence speaks volumes.

There's no other way a rational person can see it.

What was the US to do then?
Encourage Mubarak to crush a popular uprising with force?
Maybe send in the Blackhawks to help him out?

Maybe advising him that the writing was on the wall, putting an arm around his shoulders and suggesting that he leave with some dignity was the best thing one friend could do for another.

I don't think all of the calls for him to step down now in the world press helped.

You suggest that we act diplomatic and keep the talks private. Well it's too late for that.

No, you were saying that, because Mubarak was an ally, the US should have looked after him somehow.
My question was, how what would that look like?
Direct action?

 

[ogibillm]

Surprise!!!!

An 8 member group will be writing the new Egyprtian constitution.

A member of the Muslim Brotherhood is in that group.

by most accounts the muslim brotherhood represents somewhere between 20-30% of egypts population. sounds like 12.5% is under-representation. you should be happy.

Reports out of Cairo are that it should take 10 days to write it.

WOW!!

Color me surprised!!!!

From my experience it takes months for a Democracy to decide the color of shit much less write a constitution. It will take a week to print copies of the constitution yet they think they can get it done in that little time?

got a lot of experience setting up democracies, do you? and since when does it take weeks to print anything? i could make 500 copies of our consititution today using my office copier. it takes literally no time to distribute documents online.

do they not have kinkos in egypt?

 

[mudwhistle]

What was the US to do then?
Encourage Mubarak to crush a popular uprising with force?
Maybe send in the Blackhawks to help him out?

Maybe advising him that the writing was on the wall, putting an arm around his shoulders and suggesting that he leave with some dignity was the best thing one friend could do for another.

I don't think all of the calls for him to step down now in the world press helped.

You suggest that we act diplomatic and keep the talks private. Well it's too late for that.

No, you were saying that, because Mubarak was an ally, the US should have looked after him somehow.
My question was, how what would that look like?
Direct action?

No. Obama should have STFU

Seems he has a problem telling friend from foe. Right from wrong. Good from bad. He backs down from our enemies and treats our friends like shit.