Democrats Deny These Immigration Truths

[sealybobo]

The reason why thirty years ago unions fought against illegal immigration was because they understood the simple reality that labor rises and falls in price as a function of availability. More workers, lower wages. Fewer workers, higher wages.

We fought for laws that would regulate immigration into the United States to a small enough flow that it wouldn't dilute the labor pool. The first laws creating a quota for immigrants were passed in the 1920s, in response to a sense that the country could no longer absorb large numbers of unskilled workers, despite pleas by big business that it wanted the new workers.

Do a little math. There are 7.6 million unemployed Americans and at the same time 15 million illegals working here diluting our labor pool. If illegal immigrants could no longer work, unions would flourish, the minimum wage would rise, and oligarchic nations to our south would have to confront and fix their corrupt ways.

Every nation has an obligation to limit immigration to a number that will not dilute its workforce if it wants to maintain a stable middle class. This has nothing to do with race but everything to do with economics.

The simple way to do this today is to require that all non-refugee immigrants go through the same process to become American citizens or legal workers in this country (no amnesties, no "guest workers," no "legalizations") regardless of how they got here and to confront employers who hire illegals with draconian financial and criminal penalties.

As long as employers are willing and able (without severe penalties) to hire illegal workers, people will risk life and limb to grab at the America Dream. When we stop hiring and paying them, most will leave.

This is, after all, the middle-class "American Dream." And how much better this hemisphere would be if Central and South Americans were motivated to stay in their own nations (because no employer in the US would dare hire them) and fight there for a Mexican Dream and a Salvadoran Dream and a Guatemalan Dream (and so on).

I fully disagree with you.

In the 1950s the feds started Operation Wetback. In less than five years of rounding up foreigners and shipping them home our unemployment rate doubled. It is a different economics lesson, but what you bring to the table is easily answered.

Where do you suppose that the American workers are today?

"the total number of persons in the adult correctional systems had fallen to 6,851,000 persons, approximately 52,200 fewer offenders than at the year end of 2013 as reported by the BJS. About 1 in 36 adults (or 2.8% of adults in the US) were under some form of correctional supervision"

Incarceration in the United States - Wikipedia

“Drug use is on the rise in this country and 23.5 million Americans are addicted to alcohol and drugs. That’s approximately one in every 10 Americans over the age of 12 – roughly equal to the entire population of Texas. But only 11 percent of those with an addiction receive treatment."

New Data Show Millions of Americans with Alcohol and Drug Addiction Could Benefit from Health Care Reform - Where Families Find Answers on Substance Use | Partnership for Drug-Free Kids

There is quite a bit of overlap, but drug using Americans with a criminal record find themselves unemployable and end up on government assistance. The parents allow of a lot of those people allow them to sponge off mom and dad. Between that and government giving them a debit card for food, these people have no incentive to work.

The standard canard of the right is that foreigners are stealing jobs (that is a socialist argument, btw), when in reality, many Americans are unemployable due to background checks that are irrelevant to most jobs AND parents mollycoddling their now middle age "children" whilst they suck off the government teat.

Then import them legally. The same way legal immigrants had to get in, they should all have to do the same.

Even the ones here now. No shortcuts, amnesty or guest workers.

There is NOTHING in the Constitution that gives Congress, the President, or even the United States Supreme Court the authority to keep people from coming into the United States in order to conduct lawful activities.

The only legitimate - constitutional - de jure authority the federal government has over immigrants is that Congress is required to make an uniform Rule of Naturalization.

It is lawful to secure a border and regulate the flow of people coming in and out, but let's face the truth here: that is NOT what you want to do. You want to BAN people from coming in - PERIOD. The alternative argument is that those in favor of a wall want people to become citizens in order to have any rights and / or those wanting the wall would employ a quota system and that would discriminate against employers.

I don't want to ban anyone. When wages go up and employers can't find enough help, then we let more in. We let in the number that we need. No more.

end our alleged wars on crime, drugs, and terror to stop creating refugees.

You are asking for too much and you are asking for something that isn't even necessary. We just need to end our illegal employer problem. Really go after illegal employers. Soon you will find that illegals are leaving on their own because they can't find work.

Has nothing to do with the drug trafficking that goes across our borders. In fact make that shit legal for all I care.

Reclaiming the Issues: "It's an Illegal Employer Problem"

"Between 1999 and 2003, work-site enforcement operations were scaled back 95 percent by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, which subsequently was merged into the Homeland Security Department. The number of employers prosecuted for unlawfully employing immigrants dropped from 182 in 1999 to four in 2003, and fines collected declined from $3.6 million to $212,000, according to federal statistics.

"In 1999, the United States initiated fines against 417 companies. In 2004, it issued fine notices to three."

So tell me why did GW Bush stop going after illegal employers?

Hell, in the 1990's we didn't even care about illegals because the economy was booming. So why all of the sudden when the economy goes into recession, the Bush regime stops cracking down on illegal employers?

I don't want to make this about politics. I don't want to change the focus to if Bush is to blame or if Clinton is to blame. Lets not do that. The only point I'm trying to make is that we have an illegal employer problem. So don't shift the argument to drug cartels. Stop deflecting and arguing everything I'm telling you because it doesn't fit into your narrative.

 

[danielpalos]

I fully disagree with you.

In the 1950s the feds started Operation Wetback. In less than five years of rounding up foreigners and shipping them home our unemployment rate doubled. It is a different economics lesson, but what you bring to the table is easily answered.

Where do you suppose that the American workers are today?

"the total number of persons in the adult correctional systems had fallen to 6,851,000 persons, approximately 52,200 fewer offenders than at the year end of 2013 as reported by the BJS. About 1 in 36 adults (or 2.8% of adults in the US) were under some form of correctional supervision"

Incarceration in the United States - Wikipedia

“Drug use is on the rise in this country and 23.5 million Americans are addicted to alcohol and drugs. That’s approximately one in every 10 Americans over the age of 12 – roughly equal to the entire population of Texas. But only 11 percent of those with an addiction receive treatment."

New Data Show Millions of Americans with Alcohol and Drug Addiction Could Benefit from Health Care Reform - Where Families Find Answers on Substance Use | Partnership for Drug-Free Kids

There is quite a bit of overlap, but drug using Americans with a criminal record find themselves unemployable and end up on government assistance. The parents allow of a lot of those people allow them to sponge off mom and dad. Between that and government giving them a debit card for food, these people have no incentive to work.

The standard canard of the right is that foreigners are stealing jobs (that is a socialist argument, btw), when in reality, many Americans are unemployable due to background checks that are irrelevant to most jobs AND parents mollycoddling their now middle age "children" whilst they suck off the government teat.

Then import them legally. The same way legal immigrants had to get in, they should all have to do the same.

Even the ones here now. No shortcuts, amnesty or guest workers.

There is NOTHING in the Constitution that gives Congress, the President, or even the United States Supreme Court the authority to keep people from coming into the United States in order to conduct lawful activities.

The only legitimate - constitutional - de jure authority the federal government has over immigrants is that Congress is required to make an uniform Rule of Naturalization.

It is lawful to secure a border and regulate the flow of people coming in and out, but let's face the truth here: that is NOT what you want to do. You want to BAN people from coming in - PERIOD. The alternative argument is that those in favor of a wall want people to become citizens in order to have any rights and / or those wanting the wall would employ a quota system and that would discriminate against employers.

I don't want to ban anyone. When wages go up and employers can't find enough help, then we let more in. We let in the number that we need. No more.

end our alleged wars on crime, drugs, and terror to stop creating refugees.

You are asking for too much and you are asking for something that isn't even necessary. We just need to end our illegal employer problem. Really go after illegal employers. Soon you will find that illegals are leaving on their own because they can't find work.

Has nothing to do with the drug trafficking that goes across our borders. In fact make that shit legal for all I care.

Reclaiming the Issues: "It's an Illegal Employer Problem"

"Between 1999 and 2003, work-site enforcement operations were scaled back 95 percent by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, which subsequently was merged into the Homeland Security Department. The number of employers prosecuted for unlawfully employing immigrants dropped from 182 in 1999 to four in 2003, and fines collected declined from $3.6 million to $212,000, according to federal statistics.

"In 1999, the United States initiated fines against 417 companies. In 2004, it issued fine notices to three."

So tell me why did GW Bush stop going after illegal employers?

Hell, in the 1990's we didn't even care about illegals because the economy was booming. So why all of the sudden when the economy goes into recession, the Bush regime stops cracking down on illegal employers?

I don't want to make this about politics. I don't want to change the focus to if Bush is to blame or if Clinton is to blame. Lets not do that. The only point I'm trying to make is that we have an illegal employer problem. So don't shift the argument to drug cartels. Stop deflecting and arguing everything I'm telling you because it doesn't fit into your narrative.

employment is at the will of either party.

Entry into the Union is a federal obligation since 1808. States have no Constitutional basis to care if someone is from out of State or from out of state.

All foreign nationals in the US should have a federal id. We should have no "illegal" problem.

 

[sealybobo]

I don't want to ban anyone. When wages go up and employers can't find enough help, then we let more in. We let in the number that we need. No more.

Where I live there are plenty of jobs doing handyman work, landscape work, etc. for $25 to $40 an hour or so. NOBODY wants the jobs. It's easier to get a free ride from the government while living in their parent's home. Nobody wants to be an entrepreneur.

Then we should send out a flyer to Mexico saying help wanted in your town. Any laborer who wants to work where you live should apply to become a citizen because your town needs workers you can not find.

But they must legal citizens who pay taxes.

Here is the whole issue for me. NOBODY needs to become a citizen in order to work here. For me that is THE issue. Look, if you're going to make citizens out of everyone who comes here to work, pretty soon they will outvote you and this discussion becomes moot.

Taxes: According to the Chief Actuary of the SSA, about 75 percent of the undocumented foreigners pay the income tax. That is the ONLY tax you can argue. We had that war won BEFORE the conservatives got flipped by globalists. Had the FAIR Tax been debated a few times in Congress, a way to end the income tax and repeal the 16th Amendment would have resulted.

Instead, we falsely accused the undocumented foreigners of not paying taxes. That gave a pretext to use the SSN for your National ID AND continue imposing the income tax - which is a graduated tax much like the one found in the Communist Manifesto.

Pay taxes? Yes, if you're subject to them. Citizenship? HELL NO.

Sorry I'm not going to go round and round with you. I gave plenty of reasons why too many immigrants hurts the middle class and how illegal immigrants are even worse. You don't want to believe it that's fine but everyone with a brain knows too many workers means lower wages and not enough workers means wages go up.

Granted, what you're saying is a theory. But, the bottom line is, if employers can hire whomever they want, it probably won't be the freaks of nature they are required to hire due to the regulations whereby the government tells them who to hire.

That is how you got into this mess - too much regulation. AND, even if you could get rid of the undocumented foreigners, it does not make the people sucking off the welfare teat want to go back to work. It does nothing to erase a criminal record or rehabilitate a drug user. It does nothing to stop the government from getting millions of people addicted to drugs - and they do so by force at times.

So basically what you are saying is the people in this country who aren't working don't want to work and if we got rid of illegals we wouldn't have people to do those jobs. Might be some pain in the beginning but it'll be worth it in the long run.

Regulations are not why we got in this mess. That's just what libertarians and republicans say to every problem. Too many regulations, never not enough.

We got in this mess because we started hiring illegals. You seem to not believe illegals are a problem. I can't argue with that. If you don't buy into this theory then you can continue to defend corporations who hire illegals and keep defending the illegals. Very few people agree with you. Do you know who does agree with you? The corporatists.

Today's Immigration Battle Corporatists vs. Racists (and Labor is Left Behind)

If illegal immigrants could no longer work, unions would flourish, the minimum wage would rise, and oligarchic nations to our south would have to confront and fix their corrupt ways.

Between the Reagan years - when there were only around 1 to 2 million illegal aliens in our workforce - and today, we've gone from about 25 percent of our private workforce being unionized to around seven percent. Much of this is the direct result - as César Chávez predicted - of illegal immigrants competing directly with unionized and legal labor. Although it's most obvious in the construction trades over the past 30 years, it's hit all sectors of our economy.

 

[sealybobo]

Then import them legally. The same way legal immigrants had to get in, they should all have to do the same.

Even the ones here now. No shortcuts, amnesty or guest workers.

There is NOTHING in the Constitution that gives Congress, the President, or even the United States Supreme Court the authority to keep people from coming into the United States in order to conduct lawful activities.

The only legitimate - constitutional - de jure authority the federal government has over immigrants is that Congress is required to make an uniform Rule of Naturalization.

It is lawful to secure a border and regulate the flow of people coming in and out, but let's face the truth here: that is NOT what you want to do. You want to BAN people from coming in - PERIOD. The alternative argument is that those in favor of a wall want people to become citizens in order to have any rights and / or those wanting the wall would employ a quota system and that would discriminate against employers.

I don't want to ban anyone. When wages go up and employers can't find enough help, then we let more in. We let in the number that we need. No more.

end our alleged wars on crime, drugs, and terror to stop creating refugees.

You are asking for too much and you are asking for something that isn't even necessary. We just need to end our illegal employer problem. Really go after illegal employers. Soon you will find that illegals are leaving on their own because they can't find work.

Has nothing to do with the drug trafficking that goes across our borders. In fact make that shit legal for all I care.

Reclaiming the Issues: "It's an Illegal Employer Problem"

"Between 1999 and 2003, work-site enforcement operations were scaled back 95 percent by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, which subsequently was merged into the Homeland Security Department. The number of employers prosecuted for unlawfully employing immigrants dropped from 182 in 1999 to four in 2003, and fines collected declined from $3.6 million to $212,000, according to federal statistics.

"In 1999, the United States initiated fines against 417 companies. In 2004, it issued fine notices to three."

So tell me why did GW Bush stop going after illegal employers?

Hell, in the 1990's we didn't even care about illegals because the economy was booming. So why all of the sudden when the economy goes into recession, the Bush regime stops cracking down on illegal employers?

I don't want to make this about politics. I don't want to change the focus to if Bush is to blame or if Clinton is to blame. Lets not do that. The only point I'm trying to make is that we have an illegal employer problem. So don't shift the argument to drug cartels. Stop deflecting and arguing everything I'm telling you because it doesn't fit into your narrative.

employment is at the will of either party.

Entry into the Union is a federal obligation since 1808. States have no Constitutional basis to care if someone is from out of State or from out of state.

All foreign nationals in the US should have a federal id. We should have no "illegal" problem.

A state doesn't care if someone is from another state or another country? Unless that person is trying to get a job and then they care. They should care.

And what do you think Entry into the Union is a federal obligation means? Are you trying to suggest that means we are obligated to take in anyone who comes?

To me that just means Entry into the USA is a federal thing, not state issue. And states don't have the right to say we aren't taking any Somalians or Arabs who the USA takes in.

But that's take in legally.

I think a local cop should be able to deport an illegal. Don't you?

 

[sealybobo]

Then import them legally. The same way legal immigrants had to get in, they should all have to do the same.

Even the ones here now. No shortcuts, amnesty or guest workers.

There is NOTHING in the Constitution that gives Congress, the President, or even the United States Supreme Court the authority to keep people from coming into the United States in order to conduct lawful activities.

The only legitimate - constitutional - de jure authority the federal government has over immigrants is that Congress is required to make an uniform Rule of Naturalization.

It is lawful to secure a border and regulate the flow of people coming in and out, but let's face the truth here: that is NOT what you want to do. You want to BAN people from coming in - PERIOD. The alternative argument is that those in favor of a wall want people to become citizens in order to have any rights and / or those wanting the wall would employ a quota system and that would discriminate against employers.

I don't want to ban anyone. When wages go up and employers can't find enough help, then we let more in. We let in the number that we need. No more.

end our alleged wars on crime, drugs, and terror to stop creating refugees.

You are asking for too much and you are asking for something that isn't even necessary. We just need to end our illegal employer problem. Really go after illegal employers. Soon you will find that illegals are leaving on their own because they can't find work.

Has nothing to do with the drug trafficking that goes across our borders. In fact make that shit legal for all I care.

Reclaiming the Issues: "It's an Illegal Employer Problem"

"Between 1999 and 2003, work-site enforcement operations were scaled back 95 percent by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, which subsequently was merged into the Homeland Security Department. The number of employers prosecuted for unlawfully employing immigrants dropped from 182 in 1999 to four in 2003, and fines collected declined from $3.6 million to $212,000, according to federal statistics.

"In 1999, the United States initiated fines against 417 companies. In 2004, it issued fine notices to three."

So tell me why did GW Bush stop going after illegal employers?

Hell, in the 1990's we didn't even care about illegals because the economy was booming. So why all of the sudden when the economy goes into recession, the Bush regime stops cracking down on illegal employers?

I don't want to make this about politics. I don't want to change the focus to if Bush is to blame or if Clinton is to blame. Lets not do that. The only point I'm trying to make is that we have an illegal employer problem. So don't shift the argument to drug cartels. Stop deflecting and arguing everything I'm telling you because it doesn't fit into your narrative.

employment is at the will of either party.

Entry into the Union is a federal obligation since 1808. States have no Constitutional basis to care if someone is from out of State or from out of state.

All foreign nationals in the US should have a federal id. We should have no "illegal" problem.

Do the foreign nationals have a green card to work here?

Do you mean a passport or federal ID? Because I don't have to have a federal id to visit Greece. Why should a Greek have a federal ID to visit here? Or a Canadian. I just have to have a passport to go to Canada. And no Canadian company would hire me without proper work permits.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Where I live there are plenty of jobs doing handyman work, landscape work, etc. for $25 to $40 an hour or so. NOBODY wants the jobs. It's easier to get a free ride from the government while living in their parent's home. Nobody wants to be an entrepreneur.

Then we should send out a flyer to Mexico saying help wanted in your town. Any laborer who wants to work where you live should apply to become a citizen because your town needs workers you can not find.

But they must legal citizens who pay taxes.

Here is the whole issue for me. NOBODY needs to become a citizen in order to work here. For me that is THE issue. Look, if you're going to make citizens out of everyone who comes here to work, pretty soon they will outvote you and this discussion becomes moot.

Taxes: According to the Chief Actuary of the SSA, about 75 percent of the undocumented foreigners pay the income tax. That is the ONLY tax you can argue. We had that war won BEFORE the conservatives got flipped by globalists. Had the FAIR Tax been debated a few times in Congress, a way to end the income tax and repeal the 16th Amendment would have resulted.

Instead, we falsely accused the undocumented foreigners of not paying taxes. That gave a pretext to use the SSN for your National ID AND continue imposing the income tax - which is a graduated tax much like the one found in the Communist Manifesto.

Pay taxes? Yes, if you're subject to them. Citizenship? HELL NO.

Sorry I'm not going to go round and round with you. I gave plenty of reasons why too many immigrants hurts the middle class and how illegal immigrants are even worse. You don't want to believe it that's fine but everyone with a brain knows too many workers means lower wages and not enough workers means wages go up.

Granted, what you're saying is a theory. But, the bottom line is, if employers can hire whomever they want, it probably won't be the freaks of nature they are required to hire due to the regulations whereby the government tells them who to hire.

That is how you got into this mess - too much regulation. AND, even if you could get rid of the undocumented foreigners, it does not make the people sucking off the welfare teat want to go back to work. It does nothing to erase a criminal record or rehabilitate a drug user. It does nothing to stop the government from getting millions of people addicted to drugs - and they do so by force at times.

So basically what you are saying is the people in this country who aren't working don't want to work and if we got rid of illegals we wouldn't have people to do those jobs. Might be some pain in the beginning but it'll be worth it in the long run.

Regulations are not why we got in this mess. That's just what libertarians and republicans say to every problem. Too many regulations, never not enough.

We got in this mess because we started hiring illegals. You seem to not believe illegals are a problem. I can't argue with that. If you don't buy into this theory then you can continue to defend corporations who hire illegals and keep defending the illegals. Very few people agree with you. Do you know who does agree with you? The corporatists.

Today's Immigration Battle Corporatists vs. Racists (and Labor is Left Behind)

If illegal immigrants could no longer work, unions would flourish, the minimum wage would rise, and oligarchic nations to our south would have to confront and fix their corrupt ways.

Between the Reagan years - when there were only around 1 to 2 million illegal aliens in our workforce - and today, we've gone from about 25 percent of our private workforce being unionized to around seven percent. Much of this is the direct result - as César Chávez predicted - of illegal immigrants competing directly with unionized and legal labor. Although it's most obvious in the construction trades over the past 30 years, it's hit all sectors of our economy.

You live in a fantasy world. I live in the real world. Starting in my own life, my wife has two sons by a previous marriage. BOTH of them are capable of working. But, they have free rent with relatives and a debit card that collects another $600 plus dollars for food each month.

They've never worked and they are never going to work. When I got married, I thought that this was abnormal, but those two worthless pieces of scatalogical waste know people - who know people. Most of the guys I know that are 18 - 40 or so are exactly like them. They outnumber those who want to work by a margin of AT LEAST 5 to 1.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

There is NOTHING in the Constitution that gives Congress, the President, or even the United States Supreme Court the authority to keep people from coming into the United States in order to conduct lawful activities.

The only legitimate - constitutional - de jure authority the federal government has over immigrants is that Congress is required to make an uniform Rule of Naturalization.

It is lawful to secure a border and regulate the flow of people coming in and out, but let's face the truth here: that is NOT what you want to do. You want to BAN people from coming in - PERIOD. The alternative argument is that those in favor of a wall want people to become citizens in order to have any rights and / or those wanting the wall would employ a quota system and that would discriminate against employers.

I don't want to ban anyone. When wages go up and employers can't find enough help, then we let more in. We let in the number that we need. No more.

end our alleged wars on crime, drugs, and terror to stop creating refugees.

You are asking for too much and you are asking for something that isn't even necessary. We just need to end our illegal employer problem. Really go after illegal employers. Soon you will find that illegals are leaving on their own because they can't find work.

Has nothing to do with the drug trafficking that goes across our borders. In fact make that shit legal for all I care.

Reclaiming the Issues: "It's an Illegal Employer Problem"

"Between 1999 and 2003, work-site enforcement operations were scaled back 95 percent by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, which subsequently was merged into the Homeland Security Department. The number of employers prosecuted for unlawfully employing immigrants dropped from 182 in 1999 to four in 2003, and fines collected declined from $3.6 million to $212,000, according to federal statistics.

"In 1999, the United States initiated fines against 417 companies. In 2004, it issued fine notices to three."

So tell me why did GW Bush stop going after illegal employers?

Hell, in the 1990's we didn't even care about illegals because the economy was booming. So why all of the sudden when the economy goes into recession, the Bush regime stops cracking down on illegal employers?

I don't want to make this about politics. I don't want to change the focus to if Bush is to blame or if Clinton is to blame. Lets not do that. The only point I'm trying to make is that we have an illegal employer problem. So don't shift the argument to drug cartels. Stop deflecting and arguing everything I'm telling you because it doesn't fit into your narrative.

employment is at the will of either party.

Entry into the Union is a federal obligation since 1808. States have no Constitutional basis to care if someone is from out of State or from out of state.

All foreign nationals in the US should have a federal id. We should have no "illegal" problem.

A state doesn't care if someone is from another state or another country? Unless that person is trying to get a job and then they care. They should care.

And what do you think Entry into the Union is a federal obligation means? Are you trying to suggest that means we are obligated to take in anyone who comes?

To me that just means Entry into the USA is a federal thing, not state issue. And states don't have the right to say we aren't taking any Somalians or Arabs who the USA takes in.

But that's take in legally.

I think a local cop should be able to deport an illegal. Don't you?

Whoa there dude. If a local cop can enforce federal law, then they can come to your house and enforce federal gun laws. BAD IDEA.

 

[sealybobo]

Then we should send out a flyer to Mexico saying help wanted in your town. Any laborer who wants to work where you live should apply to become a citizen because your town needs workers you can not find.

But they must legal citizens who pay taxes.

Here is the whole issue for me. NOBODY needs to become a citizen in order to work here. For me that is THE issue. Look, if you're going to make citizens out of everyone who comes here to work, pretty soon they will outvote you and this discussion becomes moot.

Taxes: According to the Chief Actuary of the SSA, about 75 percent of the undocumented foreigners pay the income tax. That is the ONLY tax you can argue. We had that war won BEFORE the conservatives got flipped by globalists. Had the FAIR Tax been debated a few times in Congress, a way to end the income tax and repeal the 16th Amendment would have resulted.

Instead, we falsely accused the undocumented foreigners of not paying taxes. That gave a pretext to use the SSN for your National ID AND continue imposing the income tax - which is a graduated tax much like the one found in the Communist Manifesto.

Pay taxes? Yes, if you're subject to them. Citizenship? HELL NO.

Sorry I'm not going to go round and round with you. I gave plenty of reasons why too many immigrants hurts the middle class and how illegal immigrants are even worse. You don't want to believe it that's fine but everyone with a brain knows too many workers means lower wages and not enough workers means wages go up.

Granted, what you're saying is a theory. But, the bottom line is, if employers can hire whomever they want, it probably won't be the freaks of nature they are required to hire due to the regulations whereby the government tells them who to hire.

That is how you got into this mess - too much regulation. AND, even if you could get rid of the undocumented foreigners, it does not make the people sucking off the welfare teat want to go back to work. It does nothing to erase a criminal record or rehabilitate a drug user. It does nothing to stop the government from getting millions of people addicted to drugs - and they do so by force at times.

So basically what you are saying is the people in this country who aren't working don't want to work and if we got rid of illegals we wouldn't have people to do those jobs. Might be some pain in the beginning but it'll be worth it in the long run.

Regulations are not why we got in this mess. That's just what libertarians and republicans say to every problem. Too many regulations, never not enough.

We got in this mess because we started hiring illegals. You seem to not believe illegals are a problem. I can't argue with that. If you don't buy into this theory then you can continue to defend corporations who hire illegals and keep defending the illegals. Very few people agree with you. Do you know who does agree with you? The corporatists.

Today's Immigration Battle Corporatists vs. Racists (and Labor is Left Behind)

If illegal immigrants could no longer work, unions would flourish, the minimum wage would rise, and oligarchic nations to our south would have to confront and fix their corrupt ways.

Between the Reagan years - when there were only around 1 to 2 million illegal aliens in our workforce - and today, we've gone from about 25 percent of our private workforce being unionized to around seven percent. Much of this is the direct result - as César Chávez predicted - of illegal immigrants competing directly with unionized and legal labor. Although it's most obvious in the construction trades over the past 30 years, it's hit all sectors of our economy.

You live in a fantasy world. I live in the real world. Starting in my own life, my wife has two sons by a previous marriage. BOTH of them are capable of working. But, they have free rent with relatives and a debit card that collects another $600 plus dollars for food each month.

They've never worked and they are never going to work. When I got married, I thought that this was abnormal, but those two worthless pieces of scatalogical waste know people - who know people. Most of the guys I know that are 18 - 40 or so are exactly like them. They outnumber those who want to work by a margin of AT LEAST 5 to 1.

If those guys could have graduated highschool like our dads did and go work for Ford GM or Chrysler and make that kind of money, they would have went to work.

But no, those spoiled brats are not going to go work for minimum wage like you and I did. I agree.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Here is the whole issue for me. NOBODY needs to become a citizen in order to work here. For me that is THE issue. Look, if you're going to make citizens out of everyone who comes here to work, pretty soon they will outvote you and this discussion becomes moot.

Taxes: According to the Chief Actuary of the SSA, about 75 percent of the undocumented foreigners pay the income tax. That is the ONLY tax you can argue. We had that war won BEFORE the conservatives got flipped by globalists. Had the FAIR Tax been debated a few times in Congress, a way to end the income tax and repeal the 16th Amendment would have resulted.

Instead, we falsely accused the undocumented foreigners of not paying taxes. That gave a pretext to use the SSN for your National ID AND continue imposing the income tax - which is a graduated tax much like the one found in the Communist Manifesto.

Pay taxes? Yes, if you're subject to them. Citizenship? HELL NO.

Sorry I'm not going to go round and round with you. I gave plenty of reasons why too many immigrants hurts the middle class and how illegal immigrants are even worse. You don't want to believe it that's fine but everyone with a brain knows too many workers means lower wages and not enough workers means wages go up.

Granted, what you're saying is a theory. But, the bottom line is, if employers can hire whomever they want, it probably won't be the freaks of nature they are required to hire due to the regulations whereby the government tells them who to hire.

That is how you got into this mess - too much regulation. AND, even if you could get rid of the undocumented foreigners, it does not make the people sucking off the welfare teat want to go back to work. It does nothing to erase a criminal record or rehabilitate a drug user. It does nothing to stop the government from getting millions of people addicted to drugs - and they do so by force at times.

So basically what you are saying is the people in this country who aren't working don't want to work and if we got rid of illegals we wouldn't have people to do those jobs. Might be some pain in the beginning but it'll be worth it in the long run.

Regulations are not why we got in this mess. That's just what libertarians and republicans say to every problem. Too many regulations, never not enough.

We got in this mess because we started hiring illegals. You seem to not believe illegals are a problem. I can't argue with that. If you don't buy into this theory then you can continue to defend corporations who hire illegals and keep defending the illegals. Very few people agree with you. Do you know who does agree with you? The corporatists.

Today's Immigration Battle Corporatists vs. Racists (and Labor is Left Behind)

If illegal immigrants could no longer work, unions would flourish, the minimum wage would rise, and oligarchic nations to our south would have to confront and fix their corrupt ways.

Between the Reagan years - when there were only around 1 to 2 million illegal aliens in our workforce - and today, we've gone from about 25 percent of our private workforce being unionized to around seven percent. Much of this is the direct result - as César Chávez predicted - of illegal immigrants competing directly with unionized and legal labor. Although it's most obvious in the construction trades over the past 30 years, it's hit all sectors of our economy.

You live in a fantasy world. I live in the real world. Starting in my own life, my wife has two sons by a previous marriage. BOTH of them are capable of working. But, they have free rent with relatives and a debit card that collects another $600 plus dollars for food each month.

They've never worked and they are never going to work. When I got married, I thought that this was abnormal, but those two worthless pieces of scatalogical waste know people - who know people. Most of the guys I know that are 18 - 40 or so are exactly like them. They outnumber those who want to work by a margin of AT LEAST 5 to 1.

If those guys could have graduated highschool like our dads did and go work for Ford GM or Chrysler and make that kind of money, they would have went to work.

But no, those spoiled brats are not going to go work for minimum wage like you and I did. I agree.

I've given both of them the opportunity to work as laborers, get their GED, and get a job. They laugh at the idea. In September, we launched a ministry to help those disenfranchised.

It is not a handout program; it's a way to get off drugs, get an education and go work, becoming self sufficient. In 88 days of operation, the only people taking advantage of the program have been women.

 

[sealybobo]

Sorry I'm not going to go round and round with you. I gave plenty of reasons why too many immigrants hurts the middle class and how illegal immigrants are even worse. You don't want to believe it that's fine but everyone with a brain knows too many workers means lower wages and not enough workers means wages go up.

Granted, what you're saying is a theory. But, the bottom line is, if employers can hire whomever they want, it probably won't be the freaks of nature they are required to hire due to the regulations whereby the government tells them who to hire.

That is how you got into this mess - too much regulation. AND, even if you could get rid of the undocumented foreigners, it does not make the people sucking off the welfare teat want to go back to work. It does nothing to erase a criminal record or rehabilitate a drug user. It does nothing to stop the government from getting millions of people addicted to drugs - and they do so by force at times.

So basically what you are saying is the people in this country who aren't working don't want to work and if we got rid of illegals we wouldn't have people to do those jobs. Might be some pain in the beginning but it'll be worth it in the long run.

Regulations are not why we got in this mess. That's just what libertarians and republicans say to every problem. Too many regulations, never not enough.

We got in this mess because we started hiring illegals. You seem to not believe illegals are a problem. I can't argue with that. If you don't buy into this theory then you can continue to defend corporations who hire illegals and keep defending the illegals. Very few people agree with you. Do you know who does agree with you? The corporatists.

Today's Immigration Battle Corporatists vs. Racists (and Labor is Left Behind)

If illegal immigrants could no longer work, unions would flourish, the minimum wage would rise, and oligarchic nations to our south would have to confront and fix their corrupt ways.

Between the Reagan years - when there were only around 1 to 2 million illegal aliens in our workforce - and today, we've gone from about 25 percent of our private workforce being unionized to around seven percent. Much of this is the direct result - as César Chávez predicted - of illegal immigrants competing directly with unionized and legal labor. Although it's most obvious in the construction trades over the past 30 years, it's hit all sectors of our economy.

You live in a fantasy world. I live in the real world. Starting in my own life, my wife has two sons by a previous marriage. BOTH of them are capable of working. But, they have free rent with relatives and a debit card that collects another $600 plus dollars for food each month.

They've never worked and they are never going to work. When I got married, I thought that this was abnormal, but those two worthless pieces of scatalogical waste know people - who know people. Most of the guys I know that are 18 - 40 or so are exactly like them. They outnumber those who want to work by a margin of AT LEAST 5 to 1.

If those guys could have graduated highschool like our dads did and go work for Ford GM or Chrysler and make that kind of money, they would have went to work.

But no, those spoiled brats are not going to go work for minimum wage like you and I did. I agree.

I've given both of them the opportunity to work as laborers, get their GED, and get a job. They laugh at the idea. In September, we launched a ministry to help those disenfranchised.

It is not a handout program; it's a way to get off drugs, get an education and go work, becoming self sufficient. In 88 days of operation, the only people taking advantage of the program have been women.

I wonder why that is? When I went to EMU in the 1990's most of the people at graduation were black women. Not black men but black women.

And I'm not picking on black men. I know a lot of lazy spoiled entitled young white men. They love video games. They have no goals. The don't care about girls. They are 20 and 30 something year old children. I don't know where my generation went wrong raising these kids.

I think there wasn't the economic opportunity for them as there was for us. But then that doesn't explain why women are stepping up and taking the jobs and boys aren't. It's strange.

But also keep in mind every generation says the next generation sucks. They said it about us and we are ok. I'm in my 40's. We figured it out.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Granted, what you're saying is a theory. But, the bottom line is, if employers can hire whomever they want, it probably won't be the freaks of nature they are required to hire due to the regulations whereby the government tells them who to hire.

That is how you got into this mess - too much regulation. AND, even if you could get rid of the undocumented foreigners, it does not make the people sucking off the welfare teat want to go back to work. It does nothing to erase a criminal record or rehabilitate a drug user. It does nothing to stop the government from getting millions of people addicted to drugs - and they do so by force at times.

So basically what you are saying is the people in this country who aren't working don't want to work and if we got rid of illegals we wouldn't have people to do those jobs. Might be some pain in the beginning but it'll be worth it in the long run.

Regulations are not why we got in this mess. That's just what libertarians and republicans say to every problem. Too many regulations, never not enough.

We got in this mess because we started hiring illegals. You seem to not believe illegals are a problem. I can't argue with that. If you don't buy into this theory then you can continue to defend corporations who hire illegals and keep defending the illegals. Very few people agree with you. Do you know who does agree with you? The corporatists.

Today's Immigration Battle Corporatists vs. Racists (and Labor is Left Behind)

If illegal immigrants could no longer work, unions would flourish, the minimum wage would rise, and oligarchic nations to our south would have to confront and fix their corrupt ways.

Between the Reagan years - when there were only around 1 to 2 million illegal aliens in our workforce - and today, we've gone from about 25 percent of our private workforce being unionized to around seven percent. Much of this is the direct result - as César Chávez predicted - of illegal immigrants competing directly with unionized and legal labor. Although it's most obvious in the construction trades over the past 30 years, it's hit all sectors of our economy.

You live in a fantasy world. I live in the real world. Starting in my own life, my wife has two sons by a previous marriage. BOTH of them are capable of working. But, they have free rent with relatives and a debit card that collects another $600 plus dollars for food each month.

They've never worked and they are never going to work. When I got married, I thought that this was abnormal, but those two worthless pieces of scatalogical waste know people - who know people. Most of the guys I know that are 18 - 40 or so are exactly like them. They outnumber those who want to work by a margin of AT LEAST 5 to 1.

If those guys could have graduated highschool like our dads did and go work for Ford GM or Chrysler and make that kind of money, they would have went to work.

But no, those spoiled brats are not going to go work for minimum wage like you and I did. I agree.

I've given both of them the opportunity to work as laborers, get their GED, and get a job. They laugh at the idea. In September, we launched a ministry to help those disenfranchised.

It is not a handout program; it's a way to get off drugs, get an education and go work, becoming self sufficient. In 88 days of operation, the only people taking advantage of the program have been women.

I wonder why that is? When I went to EMU in the 1990's most of the people at graduation were black women. Not black men but black women.

And I'm not picking on black men. I know a lot of lazy spoiled entitled young white men. They love video games. They have no goals. The don't care about girls. They are 20 and 30 something year old children. I don't know where my generation went wrong raising these kids.

I think there wasn't the economic opportunity for them as there was for us. But then that doesn't explain why women are stepping up and taking the jobs and boys aren't. It's strange.

But also keep in mind every generation says the next generation sucks. They said it about us and we are ok. I'm in my 40's. We figured it out.

Did we? The country is run by idiots and scoundrels that we have to hold our nose to vote for. The politicians are a representative example of the constituency they serve.

 

[danielpalos]

There is NOTHING in the Constitution that gives Congress, the President, or even the United States Supreme Court the authority to keep people from coming into the United States in order to conduct lawful activities.

The only legitimate - constitutional - de jure authority the federal government has over immigrants is that Congress is required to make an uniform Rule of Naturalization.

It is lawful to secure a border and regulate the flow of people coming in and out, but let's face the truth here: that is NOT what you want to do. You want to BAN people from coming in - PERIOD. The alternative argument is that those in favor of a wall want people to become citizens in order to have any rights and / or those wanting the wall would employ a quota system and that would discriminate against employers.

I don't want to ban anyone. When wages go up and employers can't find enough help, then we let more in. We let in the number that we need. No more.

end our alleged wars on crime, drugs, and terror to stop creating refugees.

You are asking for too much and you are asking for something that isn't even necessary. We just need to end our illegal employer problem. Really go after illegal employers. Soon you will find that illegals are leaving on their own because they can't find work.

Has nothing to do with the drug trafficking that goes across our borders. In fact make that shit legal for all I care.

Reclaiming the Issues: "It's an Illegal Employer Problem"

"Between 1999 and 2003, work-site enforcement operations were scaled back 95 percent by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, which subsequently was merged into the Homeland Security Department. The number of employers prosecuted for unlawfully employing immigrants dropped from 182 in 1999 to four in 2003, and fines collected declined from $3.6 million to $212,000, according to federal statistics.

"In 1999, the United States initiated fines against 417 companies. In 2004, it issued fine notices to three."

So tell me why did GW Bush stop going after illegal employers?

Hell, in the 1990's we didn't even care about illegals because the economy was booming. So why all of the sudden when the economy goes into recession, the Bush regime stops cracking down on illegal employers?

I don't want to make this about politics. I don't want to change the focus to if Bush is to blame or if Clinton is to blame. Lets not do that. The only point I'm trying to make is that we have an illegal employer problem. So don't shift the argument to drug cartels. Stop deflecting and arguing everything I'm telling you because it doesn't fit into your narrative.

employment is at the will of either party.

Entry into the Union is a federal obligation since 1808. States have no Constitutional basis to care if someone is from out of State or from out of state.

All foreign nationals in the US should have a federal id. We should have no "illegal" problem.

A state doesn't care if someone is from another state or another country? Unless that person is trying to get a job and then they care. They should care.

And what do you think Entry into the Union is a federal obligation means? Are you trying to suggest that means we are obligated to take in anyone who comes?

To me that just means Entry into the USA is a federal thing, not state issue. And states don't have the right to say we aren't taking any Somalians or Arabs who the USA takes in.

But that's take in legally.

I think a local cop should be able to deport an illegal. Don't you?

It means we should have no illegal problem; only well identified, foreign nationals.

 

[sealybobo]

I don't want to ban anyone. When wages go up and employers can't find enough help, then we let more in. We let in the number that we need. No more.

end our alleged wars on crime, drugs, and terror to stop creating refugees.

You are asking for too much and you are asking for something that isn't even necessary. We just need to end our illegal employer problem. Really go after illegal employers. Soon you will find that illegals are leaving on their own because they can't find work.

Has nothing to do with the drug trafficking that goes across our borders. In fact make that shit legal for all I care.

Reclaiming the Issues: "It's an Illegal Employer Problem"

"Between 1999 and 2003, work-site enforcement operations were scaled back 95 percent by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, which subsequently was merged into the Homeland Security Department. The number of employers prosecuted for unlawfully employing immigrants dropped from 182 in 1999 to four in 2003, and fines collected declined from $3.6 million to $212,000, according to federal statistics.

"In 1999, the United States initiated fines against 417 companies. In 2004, it issued fine notices to three."

So tell me why did GW Bush stop going after illegal employers?

Hell, in the 1990's we didn't even care about illegals because the economy was booming. So why all of the sudden when the economy goes into recession, the Bush regime stops cracking down on illegal employers?

I don't want to make this about politics. I don't want to change the focus to if Bush is to blame or if Clinton is to blame. Lets not do that. The only point I'm trying to make is that we have an illegal employer problem. So don't shift the argument to drug cartels. Stop deflecting and arguing everything I'm telling you because it doesn't fit into your narrative.

employment is at the will of either party.

Entry into the Union is a federal obligation since 1808. States have no Constitutional basis to care if someone is from out of State or from out of state.

All foreign nationals in the US should have a federal id. We should have no "illegal" problem.

A state doesn't care if someone is from another state or another country? Unless that person is trying to get a job and then they care. They should care.

And what do you think Entry into the Union is a federal obligation means? Are you trying to suggest that means we are obligated to take in anyone who comes?

To me that just means Entry into the USA is a federal thing, not state issue. And states don't have the right to say we aren't taking any Somalians or Arabs who the USA takes in.

But that's take in legally.

I think a local cop should be able to deport an illegal. Don't you?

Whoa there dude. If a local cop can enforce federal law, then they can come to your house and enforce federal gun laws. BAD IDEA.

If you want to put it into terms I will understand you should ask me how would I like a Michigan cop to arrest me for having pot when it's legal in Michigan. Would I like him arresting me for a federal crime?

But I still think if a cop catches an illegal immigrant they should be able to turn them into Ice.

But then that would make me a hypocrite probably.

 

[hadit]

Granted, what you're saying is a theory. But, the bottom line is, if employers can hire whomever they want, it probably won't be the freaks of nature they are required to hire due to the regulations whereby the government tells them who to hire.

That is how you got into this mess - too much regulation. AND, even if you could get rid of the undocumented foreigners, it does not make the people sucking off the welfare teat want to go back to work. It does nothing to erase a criminal record or rehabilitate a drug user. It does nothing to stop the government from getting millions of people addicted to drugs - and they do so by force at times.

So basically what you are saying is the people in this country who aren't working don't want to work and if we got rid of illegals we wouldn't have people to do those jobs. Might be some pain in the beginning but it'll be worth it in the long run.

Regulations are not why we got in this mess. That's just what libertarians and republicans say to every problem. Too many regulations, never not enough.

We got in this mess because we started hiring illegals. You seem to not believe illegals are a problem. I can't argue with that. If you don't buy into this theory then you can continue to defend corporations who hire illegals and keep defending the illegals. Very few people agree with you. Do you know who does agree with you? The corporatists.

Today's Immigration Battle Corporatists vs. Racists (and Labor is Left Behind)

If illegal immigrants could no longer work, unions would flourish, the minimum wage would rise, and oligarchic nations to our south would have to confront and fix their corrupt ways.

Between the Reagan years - when there were only around 1 to 2 million illegal aliens in our workforce - and today, we've gone from about 25 percent of our private workforce being unionized to around seven percent. Much of this is the direct result - as César Chávez predicted - of illegal immigrants competing directly with unionized and legal labor. Although it's most obvious in the construction trades over the past 30 years, it's hit all sectors of our economy.

You live in a fantasy world. I live in the real world. Starting in my own life, my wife has two sons by a previous marriage. BOTH of them are capable of working. But, they have free rent with relatives and a debit card that collects another $600 plus dollars for food each month.

They've never worked and they are never going to work. When I got married, I thought that this was abnormal, but those two worthless pieces of scatalogical waste know people - who know people. Most of the guys I know that are 18 - 40 or so are exactly like them. They outnumber those who want to work by a margin of AT LEAST 5 to 1.

If those guys could have graduated highschool like our dads did and go work for Ford GM or Chrysler and make that kind of money, they would have went to work.

But no, those spoiled brats are not going to go work for minimum wage like you and I did. I agree.

I've given both of them the opportunity to work as laborers, get their GED, and get a job. They laugh at the idea. In September, we launched a ministry to help those disenfranchised.

It is not a handout program; it's a way to get off drugs, get an education and go work, becoming self sufficient. In 88 days of operation, the only people taking advantage of the program have been women.

I wonder why that is? When I went to EMU in the 1990's most of the people at graduation were black women. Not black men but black women.

And I'm not picking on black men. I know a lot of lazy spoiled entitled young white men. They love video games. They have no goals. The don't care about girls. They are 20 and 30 something year old children. I don't know where my generation went wrong raising these kids.

I think there wasn't the economic opportunity for them as there was for us. But then that doesn't explain why women are stepping up and taking the jobs and boys aren't. It's strange.

But also keep in mind every generation says the next generation sucks. They said it about us and we are ok. I'm in my 40's. We figured it out.

I think it's a cultural shift. When we were young, our male role models almost universally stressed hard work and self sufficiency. It was scandalous for a young man to get a girl pregnant, then run out on her. Now, it seems almost expected. "GI Joe" was what, under 20? Now, 20 is still childhood.

Not to pick on Obama, but "pajama boy" was possibly the worst conceivable face they could have put on obamadontcare. They actually stressed the idea that you wouldn't have to worry about working so much, or even at all to provide health insurance.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

end our alleged wars on crime, drugs, and terror to stop creating refugees.

You are asking for too much and you are asking for something that isn't even necessary. We just need to end our illegal employer problem. Really go after illegal employers. Soon you will find that illegals are leaving on their own because they can't find work.

Has nothing to do with the drug trafficking that goes across our borders. In fact make that shit legal for all I care.

Reclaiming the Issues: "It's an Illegal Employer Problem"

"Between 1999 and 2003, work-site enforcement operations were scaled back 95 percent by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, which subsequently was merged into the Homeland Security Department. The number of employers prosecuted for unlawfully employing immigrants dropped from 182 in 1999 to four in 2003, and fines collected declined from $3.6 million to $212,000, according to federal statistics.

"In 1999, the United States initiated fines against 417 companies. In 2004, it issued fine notices to three."

So tell me why did GW Bush stop going after illegal employers?

Hell, in the 1990's we didn't even care about illegals because the economy was booming. So why all of the sudden when the economy goes into recession, the Bush regime stops cracking down on illegal employers?

I don't want to make this about politics. I don't want to change the focus to if Bush is to blame or if Clinton is to blame. Lets not do that. The only point I'm trying to make is that we have an illegal employer problem. So don't shift the argument to drug cartels. Stop deflecting and arguing everything I'm telling you because it doesn't fit into your narrative.

employment is at the will of either party.

Entry into the Union is a federal obligation since 1808. States have no Constitutional basis to care if someone is from out of State or from out of state.

All foreign nationals in the US should have a federal id. We should have no "illegal" problem.

A state doesn't care if someone is from another state or another country? Unless that person is trying to get a job and then they care. They should care.

And what do you think Entry into the Union is a federal obligation means? Are you trying to suggest that means we are obligated to take in anyone who comes?

To me that just means Entry into the USA is a federal thing, not state issue. And states don't have the right to say we aren't taking any Somalians or Arabs who the USA takes in.

But that's take in legally.

I think a local cop should be able to deport an illegal. Don't you?

Whoa there dude. If a local cop can enforce federal law, then they can come to your house and enforce federal gun laws. BAD IDEA.

If you want to put it into terms I will understand you should ask me how would I like a Michigan cop to arrest me for having pot when it's legal in Michigan. Would I like him arresting me for a federal crime?

But I still think if a cop catches an illegal immigrant they should be able to turn them into Ice.

But then that would make me a hypocrite probably.

I guess you are what you say IF you would actually do it. The principle would apply across the board (it's that 14th Amendment you know.) If a local or state cop can arrest you for violating a federal law, then he can arrest you for violating gun laws.

Sheriff Richard Mack took that question all the way to the United States Supreme Court as he did not want to be forced into complying with the Brady Bill. He won the case. We're talking now about the equal protection of the laws. Our Republic, thank God, has jurisdictional boundaries. They cannot violate them just because you do not like undocumented foreigners.

 

[sealybobo]

So basically what you are saying is the people in this country who aren't working don't want to work and if we got rid of illegals we wouldn't have people to do those jobs. Might be some pain in the beginning but it'll be worth it in the long run.

Regulations are not why we got in this mess. That's just what libertarians and republicans say to every problem. Too many regulations, never not enough.

We got in this mess because we started hiring illegals. You seem to not believe illegals are a problem. I can't argue with that. If you don't buy into this theory then you can continue to defend corporations who hire illegals and keep defending the illegals. Very few people agree with you. Do you know who does agree with you? The corporatists.

Today's Immigration Battle Corporatists vs. Racists (and Labor is Left Behind)

If illegal immigrants could no longer work, unions would flourish, the minimum wage would rise, and oligarchic nations to our south would have to confront and fix their corrupt ways.

Between the Reagan years - when there were only around 1 to 2 million illegal aliens in our workforce - and today, we've gone from about 25 percent of our private workforce being unionized to around seven percent. Much of this is the direct result - as César Chávez predicted - of illegal immigrants competing directly with unionized and legal labor. Although it's most obvious in the construction trades over the past 30 years, it's hit all sectors of our economy.

You live in a fantasy world. I live in the real world. Starting in my own life, my wife has two sons by a previous marriage. BOTH of them are capable of working. But, they have free rent with relatives and a debit card that collects another $600 plus dollars for food each month.

They've never worked and they are never going to work. When I got married, I thought that this was abnormal, but those two worthless pieces of scatalogical waste know people - who know people. Most of the guys I know that are 18 - 40 or so are exactly like them. They outnumber those who want to work by a margin of AT LEAST 5 to 1.

If those guys could have graduated highschool like our dads did and go work for Ford GM or Chrysler and make that kind of money, they would have went to work.

But no, those spoiled brats are not going to go work for minimum wage like you and I did. I agree.

I've given both of them the opportunity to work as laborers, get their GED, and get a job. They laugh at the idea. In September, we launched a ministry to help those disenfranchised.

It is not a handout program; it's a way to get off drugs, get an education and go work, becoming self sufficient. In 88 days of operation, the only people taking advantage of the program have been women.

I wonder why that is? When I went to EMU in the 1990's most of the people at graduation were black women. Not black men but black women.

And I'm not picking on black men. I know a lot of lazy spoiled entitled young white men. They love video games. They have no goals. The don't care about girls. They are 20 and 30 something year old children. I don't know where my generation went wrong raising these kids.

I think there wasn't the economic opportunity for them as there was for us. But then that doesn't explain why women are stepping up and taking the jobs and boys aren't. It's strange.

But also keep in mind every generation says the next generation sucks. They said it about us and we are ok. I'm in my 40's. We figured it out.

I think it's a cultural shift. When we were young, our male role models almost universally stressed hard work and self sufficiency. It was scandalous for a young man to get a girl pregnant, then run out on her. Now, it seems almost expected. "GI Joe" was what, under 20? Now, 20 is still childhood.

Not to pick on Obama, but "pajama boy" was possibly the worst conceivable face they could have put on obamadontcare. They actually stressed the idea that you wouldn't have to worry about working so much, or even at all to provide health insurance.

You’ll get no argument from me on this. I wish all the poor people on welfare didn’t have those kids they couldn’t afford. They know welfare is something they’ll get if they have kids and I believe this plays into their accidents happening in the first place.

Here is an idea I bet you can agree on. And they may actually be doing this now. If your retirement age for social security is 67 and you use up $2000 worth of foodstamps, that money has to come out of your benefits before you can retire. Every citizen who’s going to get social security is being tracked. They know what you have coming. I think welfare when you are young should be collected eventually. So instead of 67 your retirement might be 70 if you took welfare for 3 years.

U like this?

 

[sealybobo]

You are asking for too much and you are asking for something that isn't even necessary. We just need to end our illegal employer problem. Really go after illegal employers. Soon you will find that illegals are leaving on their own because they can't find work.

Has nothing to do with the drug trafficking that goes across our borders. In fact make that shit legal for all I care.

Reclaiming the Issues: "It's an Illegal Employer Problem"

"Between 1999 and 2003, work-site enforcement operations were scaled back 95 percent by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, which subsequently was merged into the Homeland Security Department. The number of employers prosecuted for unlawfully employing immigrants dropped from 182 in 1999 to four in 2003, and fines collected declined from $3.6 million to $212,000, according to federal statistics.

"In 1999, the United States initiated fines against 417 companies. In 2004, it issued fine notices to three."

So tell me why did GW Bush stop going after illegal employers?

Hell, in the 1990's we didn't even care about illegals because the economy was booming. So why all of the sudden when the economy goes into recession, the Bush regime stops cracking down on illegal employers?

I don't want to make this about politics. I don't want to change the focus to if Bush is to blame or if Clinton is to blame. Lets not do that. The only point I'm trying to make is that we have an illegal employer problem. So don't shift the argument to drug cartels. Stop deflecting and arguing everything I'm telling you because it doesn't fit into your narrative.

employment is at the will of either party.

Entry into the Union is a federal obligation since 1808. States have no Constitutional basis to care if someone is from out of State or from out of state.

All foreign nationals in the US should have a federal id. We should have no "illegal" problem.

A state doesn't care if someone is from another state or another country? Unless that person is trying to get a job and then they care. They should care.

And what do you think Entry into the Union is a federal obligation means? Are you trying to suggest that means we are obligated to take in anyone who comes?

To me that just means Entry into the USA is a federal thing, not state issue. And states don't have the right to say we aren't taking any Somalians or Arabs who the USA takes in.

But that's take in legally.

I think a local cop should be able to deport an illegal. Don't you?

Whoa there dude. If a local cop can enforce federal law, then they can come to your house and enforce federal gun laws. BAD IDEA.

If you want to put it into terms I will understand you should ask me how would I like a Michigan cop to arrest me for having pot when it's legal in Michigan. Would I like him arresting me for a federal crime?

But I still think if a cop catches an illegal immigrant they should be able to turn them into Ice.

But then that would make me a hypocrite probably.

I guess you are what you say IF you would actually do it. The principle would apply across the board (it's that 14th Amendment you know.) If a local or state cop can arrest you for violating a federal law, then he can arrest you for violating gun laws.

Sheriff Richard Mack took that question all the way to the United States Supreme Court as he did not want to be forced into complying with the Brady Bill. He won the case. We're talking now about the equal protection of the laws. Our Republic, thank God, has jurisdictional boundaries. They cannot violate them just because you do not like undocumented foreigners.

What about a citizens arrest?

 

[sealybobo]

You are asking for too much and you are asking for something that isn't even necessary. We just need to end our illegal employer problem. Really go after illegal employers. Soon you will find that illegals are leaving on their own because they can't find work.

Has nothing to do with the drug trafficking that goes across our borders. In fact make that shit legal for all I care.

Reclaiming the Issues: "It's an Illegal Employer Problem"

"Between 1999 and 2003, work-site enforcement operations were scaled back 95 percent by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, which subsequently was merged into the Homeland Security Department. The number of employers prosecuted for unlawfully employing immigrants dropped from 182 in 1999 to four in 2003, and fines collected declined from $3.6 million to $212,000, according to federal statistics.

"In 1999, the United States initiated fines against 417 companies. In 2004, it issued fine notices to three."

So tell me why did GW Bush stop going after illegal employers?

Hell, in the 1990's we didn't even care about illegals because the economy was booming. So why all of the sudden when the economy goes into recession, the Bush regime stops cracking down on illegal employers?

I don't want to make this about politics. I don't want to change the focus to if Bush is to blame or if Clinton is to blame. Lets not do that. The only point I'm trying to make is that we have an illegal employer problem. So don't shift the argument to drug cartels. Stop deflecting and arguing everything I'm telling you because it doesn't fit into your narrative.

employment is at the will of either party.

Entry into the Union is a federal obligation since 1808. States have no Constitutional basis to care if someone is from out of State or from out of state.

All foreign nationals in the US should have a federal id. We should have no "illegal" problem.

A state doesn't care if someone is from another state or another country? Unless that person is trying to get a job and then they care. They should care.

And what do you think Entry into the Union is a federal obligation means? Are you trying to suggest that means we are obligated to take in anyone who comes?

To me that just means Entry into the USA is a federal thing, not state issue. And states don't have the right to say we aren't taking any Somalians or Arabs who the USA takes in.

But that's take in legally.

I think a local cop should be able to deport an illegal. Don't you?

Whoa there dude. If a local cop can enforce federal law, then they can come to your house and enforce federal gun laws. BAD IDEA.

If you want to put it into terms I will understand you should ask me how would I like a Michigan cop to arrest me for having pot when it's legal in Michigan. Would I like him arresting me for a federal crime?

But I still think if a cop catches an illegal immigrant they should be able to turn them into Ice.

But then that would make me a hypocrite probably.

I guess you are what you say IF you would actually do it. The principle would apply across the board (it's that 14th Amendment you know.) If a local or state cop can arrest you for violating a federal law, then he can arrest you for violating gun laws.

Sheriff Richard Mack took that question all the way to the United States Supreme Court as he did not want to be forced into complying with the Brady Bill. He won the case. We're talking now about the equal protection of the laws. Our Republic, thank God, has jurisdictional boundaries. They cannot violate them just because you do not like undocumented foreigners.

This is why you go after companies breaking the law.

And don’t you think states have the right to arrest and turn illegals over to ice? What if Arizona has a problem Michigan does not? I’m going to tell Arizona they can’t arrest undocumented people and deport the ones who aren’t from here? So trumps breaking the law?

 

[LA RAM FAN]

end our alleged wars on crime, drugs, and terror to stop creating refugees.

You are asking for too much and you are asking for something that isn't even necessary. We just need to end our illegal employer problem. Really go after illegal employers. Soon you will find that illegals are leaving on their own because they can't find work.

Has nothing to do with the drug trafficking that goes across our borders. In fact make that shit legal for all I care.

Reclaiming the Issues: "It's an Illegal Employer Problem"

"Between 1999 and 2003, work-site enforcement operations were scaled back 95 percent by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, which subsequently was merged into the Homeland Security Department. The number of employers prosecuted for unlawfully employing immigrants dropped from 182 in 1999 to four in 2003, and fines collected declined from $3.6 million to $212,000, according to federal statistics.

"In 1999, the United States initiated fines against 417 companies. In 2004, it issued fine notices to three."

So tell me why did GW Bush stop going after illegal employers?

Hell, in the 1990's we didn't even care about illegals because the economy was booming. So why all of the sudden when the economy goes into recession, the Bush regime stops cracking down on illegal employers?

I don't want to make this about politics. I don't want to change the focus to if Bush is to blame or if Clinton is to blame. Lets not do that. The only point I'm trying to make is that we have an illegal employer problem. So don't shift the argument to drug cartels. Stop deflecting and arguing everything I'm telling you because it doesn't fit into your narrative.

employment is at the will of either party.

Entry into the Union is a federal obligation since 1808. States have no Constitutional basis to care if someone is from out of State or from out of state.

All foreign nationals in the US should have a federal id. We should have no "illegal" problem.

A state doesn't care if someone is from another state or another country? Unless that person is trying to get a job and then they care. They should care.

And what do you think Entry into the Union is a federal obligation means? Are you trying to suggest that means we are obligated to take in anyone who comes?

To me that just means Entry into the USA is a federal thing, not state issue. And states don't have the right to say we aren't taking any Somalians or Arabs who the USA takes in.

But that's take in legally.

I think a local cop should be able to deport an illegal. Don't you?

Whoa there dude. If a local cop can enforce federal law, then they can come to your house and enforce federal gun laws. BAD IDEA.

If you want to put it into terms I will understand you should ask me how would I like a Michigan cop to arrest me for having pot when it's legal in Michigan. Would I like him arresting me for a federal crime?

But I still think if a cop catches an illegal immigrant they should be able to turn them into Ice.

But then that would make me a hypocrite probably.

well EVERYBODY that knows anything about you knows that is an understatement that you one of the biggest hypocrite trolls to penetrate this site the fact you call out warmonger Bush for his muRderous actions in the mideast and then ignore how Obozo lied to the american people that he would pull out of the war and reverse all of Bushs policys but then EXPANDED them yet you worship THAT motherfucker for doing so,

hypocrite is the UNDERSTATEMENT of the year on you.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

You live in a fantasy world. I live in the real world. Starting in my own life, my wife has two sons by a previous marriage. BOTH of them are capable of working. But, they have free rent with relatives and a debit card that collects another $600 plus dollars for food each month.

They've never worked and they are never going to work. When I got married, I thought that this was abnormal, but those two worthless pieces of scatalogical waste know people - who know people. Most of the guys I know that are 18 - 40 or so are exactly like them. They outnumber those who want to work by a margin of AT LEAST 5 to 1.

If those guys could have graduated highschool like our dads did and go work for Ford GM or Chrysler and make that kind of money, they would have went to work.

But no, those spoiled brats are not going to go work for minimum wage like you and I did. I agree.

I've given both of them the opportunity to work as laborers, get their GED, and get a job. They laugh at the idea. In September, we launched a ministry to help those disenfranchised.

It is not a handout program; it's a way to get off drugs, get an education and go work, becoming self sufficient. In 88 days of operation, the only people taking advantage of the program have been women.

I wonder why that is? When I went to EMU in the 1990's most of the people at graduation were black women. Not black men but black women.

And I'm not picking on black men. I know a lot of lazy spoiled entitled young white men. They love video games. They have no goals. The don't care about girls. They are 20 and 30 something year old children. I don't know where my generation went wrong raising these kids.

I think there wasn't the economic opportunity for them as there was for us. But then that doesn't explain why women are stepping up and taking the jobs and boys aren't. It's strange.

But also keep in mind every generation says the next generation sucks. They said it about us and we are ok. I'm in my 40's. We figured it out.

I think it's a cultural shift. When we were young, our male role models almost universally stressed hard work and self sufficiency. It was scandalous for a young man to get a girl pregnant, then run out on her. Now, it seems almost expected. "GI Joe" was what, under 20? Now, 20 is still childhood.

Not to pick on Obama, but "pajama boy" was possibly the worst conceivable face they could have put on obamadontcare. They actually stressed the idea that you wouldn't have to worry about working so much, or even at all to provide health insurance.

You’ll get no argument from me on this. I wish all the poor people on welfare didn’t have those kids they couldn’t afford. They know welfare is something they’ll get if they have kids and I believe this plays into their accidents happening in the first place.

Here is an idea I bet you can agree on. And they may actually be doing this now. If your retirement age for social security is 67 and you use up $2000 worth of foodstamps, that money has to come out of your benefits before you can retire. Every citizen who’s going to get social security is being tracked. They know what you have coming. I think welfare when you are young should be collected eventually. So instead of 67 your retirement might be 70 if you took welfare for 3 years.

U like this?

NO. My late mother got $580 in Social Security payments and the state allowed her $17 for food each month. My wife's oldest son gets $650 a month for food every month not counting all the other extra freebies he gets.