Do You Think The Fast & Furious Scandal Is Worse Than Watergate Scandal?

[bigrebnc1775]

Following English is the least of his problems. (you like my gramar now? put in caps, and a 'full-stop' - that's Aussie/NZ speak for 'period')...

Do a search on Uncensored's posts. Full of insults and pathetic putdowns. Not interested in debate, just to show is "superior" intellect. Had a programme on psychopaths down here two nights ago. He fits the profile to a T....

Pot here's kettle.

I find that you interact better with Jillian than you do with me...
I think it has to do with nationality.
I wasn't the one who started the "you ain't American" shit.

Might I add, that the absolute worst times on this board were under the original owner Jim and his mods. To be fair, a couple were Ok, but the rest were absolutely awful. Once Jim sold, and the new owners took over - and subsequent owners - this board became great (Sitty and Pale and even Annie might disagree).

The insults that flew were a lot worse than you have thrown at me, and bans happened left, right and centre.

BUT...and this is a HUGE BUT, not even at their WORST did they resort to "you are not American and your voice doesn't count". If you can't debate facts, don't debate at all.

Put me on ignore. No harm, no foul...

The problem grump as with me I don't not take to be dictated to by an outsider. and you come across that way.

 

[Dr Grump]

It doesn't take a rocket-scientist to figure out what happens when you give military grade light armor defeating weapons to criminals.

There is no excuse for this type of activity, and the Administration knows it. That is the reason they're covering this up.

Fast and Furious High-Powered Assault Weapons Were Seized at Drug Cartel Enforcer’s Home | The Gateway Pundit

Did you know Fast and Furious guns brought down a military helicopter? - National drug cartel | Examiner.com

Mexican Military Helicopter Shot Down With BATF .50 Caliber Rifle Sold to Drug Cartels : Deadline Live With Jack Blood

Mexico Gun-Running Operation Enhanced Cartels

There is no cover-up. There is no conspircy. It's a political witch hunt in an election year to stir the shit pot and inflame the ditto-base.

There is definitely a cover-up. Is there an attempt to use this scandal in an election year to inflame people against this Administration? Of course. Does that mean that the investigation is unwarranted? Hardly.

The bottom line is that Fast & Furious was an ill advised (and that's being charitable!) plan run by Eric Holder's DOJ, which blew up in the faces of the Obama Administration and they have been doing everything they can to dodge the falling debris.

But being honest, don't you think - from what I have seen - that Holder is furious. Not about people trying to 'get' him, but that this went ahead. I reckon he knew bugger-all about this and has been on the back foot ever since....

 

[Dr Grump]

Pot here's kettle.

I find that you interact better with Jillian than you do with me...
I think it has to do with nationality.
I wasn't the one who started the "you ain't American" shit.

Might I add, that the absolute worst times on this board were under the original owner Jim and his mods. To be fair, a couple were Ok, but the rest were absolutely awful. Once Jim sold, and the new owners took over - and subsequent owners - this board became great (Sitty and Pale and even Annie might disagree).

The insults that flew were a lot worse than you have thrown at me, and bans happened left, right and centre.

BUT...and this is a HUGE BUT, not even at their WORST did they resort to "you are not American and your voice doesn't count". If you can't debate facts, don't debate at all.

Put me on ignore. No harm, no foul...

The problem grump as with me I don't not take to be dictated to by an outsider. and you come across that way.

Well, I don't mean to. Find US politics interesting...s'all..

 

[Uncensored2008]

Jillian is the only person I know in real life for real on this board. not only is she a lawyer, but she is a very successful one

Oh, well then I'll just take your word for it, seeing how much respect I have for you.

How do you know when somebody loses an argument? look up the word ad hominem Uncensored.

ROFL

Ironic post is ironic..

I always thought you a baffoon..but to advertise it on a messageboard, well, why not? Once a dumb motherfucker, always a dumb motherfucker...

What is a "baffoon," sparky?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Issa has partisan motives, there is no question of this. IF Jillian were actually a lawyer, or had any familiarity at all with the American system of jurisprudence, then the concept of adversarial advocacy would be one she had encountered. Just as in a court of law, where we depend on adversarial counsel to ferret out the truth of a matter, we depend on adversarial politics to expose unsavory or criminal acts by the opposition party. Issa's motives are irrelevant, the pubic is served by his zeal to uncover the truth.

But Jillian grasps none of this, because the closest she has been to legal training is watching reruns of "Law & Order" while eating Bon Bons on her couch in her trailer.

Uncensored in my opinion I believe jillian is a lawyer. The problem she is facing is that she is allowing her politics to override her better judgement. It happens we are all human.
Noe the facts are obama and holder are covering up what they know about Fast and the furious.
My opinion about that is someone mentioned gun control and using fast and the furious to get it in those memos and that's what obama is hiding.

honestly, honey... if people were actually engaging in reasonable discussion on this issue, i'm always happy to participiate on that level.

but when faced with rightwingnut hackery, i treat people the way they deserve to be treated and respond to them in terms they can understand.

Now Jillian tell me something what is wrong with this picture. holder has been asked to produce some papers that was for thought that obama did not have access to now obama invokes executive privilege, and with that on papers that the president had access to are protected this way. Holder said obama did not have knowledge of fast and the furious. But now we find out obama did.
Is there something wrong with that?

 

[Uncensored2008]

Unlike you. The epitome of sophistocated wit and fantastic comebacks...

Should I ever fall to the "I know you are, but what am I" level that is your forte', I trust that someone will have the benevolence to simply shoot me.

Seriously Gump, if you had the wits of brain damaged opossum, you would be embarrassed.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I find that you interact better with Jillian than you do with me...
I think it has to do with nationality.
I wasn't the one who started the "you ain't American" shit.

Might I add, that the absolute worst times on this board were under the original owner Jim and his mods. To be fair, a couple were Ok, but the rest were absolutely awful. Once Jim sold, and the new owners took over - and subsequent owners - this board became great (Sitty and Pale and even Annie might disagree).

The insults that flew were a lot worse than you have thrown at me, and bans happened left, right and centre.

BUT...and this is a HUGE BUT, not even at their WORST did they resort to "you are not American and your voice doesn't count". If you can't debate facts, don't debate at all.

Put me on ignore. No harm, no foul...

The problem grump as with me I don't not take to be dictated to by an outsider. and you come across that way.

Well, I don't mean to. Find US politics interesting...s'all..

Not a problem ......now listen here kangaroo fucker

 

[jillian]

Uncensored in my opinion I believe jillian is a lawyer. The problem she is facing is that she is allowing her politics to override her better judgement. It happens we are all human.
Noe the facts are obama and holder are covering up what they know about Fast and the furious.
My opinion about that is someone mentioned gun control and using fast and the furious to get it in those memos and that's what obama is hiding.

honestly, honey... if people were actually engaging in reasonable discussion on this issue, i'm always happy to participiate on that level.

but when faced with rightwingnut hackery, i treat people the way they deserve to be treated and respond to them in terms they can understand.

Now Jillian tell me something what is wrong with this picture. holder has been asked to produce some papers that was for thought that obama did not have access to now obama invokes executive privilege, and with that on papers that the president had access to are protected this way. Holder said obama did not have knowledge of fast and the furious. But now we find out obama did.
Is there something wrong with that?

reb. if it was about him giving documents, i'd probably agree he should for transparency.

but not the way this is being used by issa.

and if asked by someone who was even slightly worth the discussion (unlike the way i've been talked to by people who haven't gotten through fifth grade) i'd say i don't think the president should have claimed executive privilege because that's equally as political.

don't you think we'd do better to actually start from the beginning, with mukasey, and move on and see where we went wrong?

rather than issa using his subpoena power (which i can't wait for him to lose) to play rightwingnut politics and feed red meat to 'the base'.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Put your bona fides on the table.

I'm faster than a speeding bullet and can leap tall buildings in a single bound.

You?

 

[Dr Grump]

Jillian is the only person I know in real life for real on this board. not only is she a lawyer, but she is a very successful one

Oh, well then I'll just take your word for it, seeing how much respect I have for you.

How do you know when somebody loses an argument? look up the word ad hominem Uncensored.

ROFL

Ironic post is ironic..

[qoute] I always thought you a baffoon..but to advertise it on a messageboard, well, why not? Once a dumb motherfucker, always a dumb motherfucker...

What is a "baffoon," sparky?[/QUOTE]

What are the odds of me going back through your posts and finding a typo? Wanna take a bet?

BTW, my 10 year old son plays rep soccer. He is a goal keeper. He has many heroes, one being the Italian goalkeeper. Care to guess the name of that goalkeeper....then tell me I don't know how to spell the name (minus a vowel)

PS: You obviously skipped my post on the general perception of those that pick on typos...

Once a psycho always a psycho I guess...

 

[Too Tall]

And you think:

1) Holder or Obama even knew the agenda that these emails represent?
2) Even knew about them at ALL?

Yes obama and holder knew about the emails that's what the executive privilege is all about. obama couldn't use it if he didn't have some knowledge of the emails and the papers that are being requested to look at.

actually. the executive privilege claim is about givng the finger to issa and his fellow rightwingnut hacks.

they interviewed holder 7 times. they had piles and piles of documents. the emails they wanted had nothing to do with the death of the officer. and they still could have seen everything if they stopped the rightwingnut hack stuff and dropped the contempt nonsense. if they were interested in "fast and furious*, they'd have subpoenaed Mukasey... in whose justice department UNDER BUSH, the program started.

oh... and stop telling people they shouldn't comment on our politics. or feel free to stop mentioning any country other than the U.S.

mmmkay?

Either you are uniformed or a damned liar. "Fast and Furious" was not started under Bush. Based on your posts on this subject, I choose damned liar.

 

[Dr Grump]

Unlike you. The epitome of sophistocated wit and fantastic comebacks...

Should I ever fall to the "I know you are, but what am I" level that is your forte', I trust that someone will have the benevolence to simply shoot me.

Seriously Gump, if you had the wits of brain damaged opossum, you would be embarrassed.

You should be a stand up comic


















































at your local Death Row...

 

[Uncensored2008]

Oh, wow! We have an English teacher in our midst..

Economics, but why quibble.

The sure sign of a failed argument...picking on grammar...whoops!

Everything is a sign of a failed argument with you - save a rational point or a quick wit, that is....

 

[Truthmatters]

Yes obama and holder knew about the emails that's what the executive privilege is all about. obama couldn't use it if he didn't have some knowledge of the emails and the papers that are being requested to look at.

actually. the executive privilege claim is about givng the finger to issa and his fellow rightwingnut hacks.

they interviewed holder 7 times. they had piles and piles of documents. the emails they wanted had nothing to do with the death of the officer. and they still could have seen everything if they stopped the rightwingnut hack stuff and dropped the contempt nonsense. if they were interested in "fast and furious*, they'd have subpoenaed Mukasey... in whose justice department UNDER BUSH, the program started.

oh... and stop telling people they shouldn't comment on our politics. or feel free to stop mentioning any country other than the U.S.

mmmkay?

Either you are uniformed or a damned liar. "Fast and Furious" was not started under Bush. Based on your posts on this subject, I choose damned liar.

The tactic was developed under the Bush term.


then the local guys re employed it when asked to stop the gun flow.

 

[Dr Grump]

Put your bona fides on the table.

I'm faster than a speeding bullet and can leap tall buildings in a single bound.

You?

You're wind? Why am I not surprised....

 

[Truthmatters]

why would an investigation into this tactic NOT look at the entire use of it?

 

[Dr Grump]

Yes obama and holder knew about the emails that's what the executive privilege is all about. obama couldn't use it if he didn't have some knowledge of the emails and the papers that are being requested to look at.

actually. the executive privilege claim is about givng the finger to issa and his fellow rightwingnut hacks.

they interviewed holder 7 times. they had piles and piles of documents. the emails they wanted had nothing to do with the death of the officer. and they still could have seen everything if they stopped the rightwingnut hack stuff and dropped the contempt nonsense. if they were interested in "fast and furious*, they'd have subpoenaed Mukasey... in whose justice department UNDER BUSH, the program started.

oh... and stop telling people they shouldn't comment on our politics. or feel free to stop mentioning any country other than the U.S.

mmmkay?

Either you are uniformed or a damned liar. "Fast and Furious" was not started under Bush. Based on your posts on this subject, I choose damned liar.

You should have chosen the rectangle window..about your level...

 

[Truthmatters]

Because they wanted any embarrassment that came from this tactic to fall ONLY on the obama admin.

 

[Truthmatters]

How many guns travel to mexico without this program?

 

[Oldstyle]

actually. the executive privilege claim is about givng the finger to issa and his fellow rightwingnut hacks.

they interviewed holder 7 times. they had piles and piles of documents. the emails they wanted had nothing to do with the death of the officer. and they still could have seen everything if they stopped the rightwingnut hack stuff and dropped the contempt nonsense. if they were interested in "fast and furious*, they'd have subpoenaed Mukasey... in whose justice department UNDER BUSH, the program started.

oh... and stop telling people they shouldn't comment on our politics. or feel free to stop mentioning any country other than the U.S.

mmmkay?

With all due respect, Jillian? You as a lawyer should be well aware of the reason WHY most people get interviewed numerous times...namely that their story hasn't checked out. Holder originally told the Congressional investigating committee that he had only heard about Fast & Furious "several weeks" before the story broke only to have e-mails surface that had him discussing Fast & Furious nine MONTHS earlier. To be quite blunt...Eric Holder got caught in a bald faced lie. As for the "piles and piles" of documents that the DOJ has turned over? Also as a lawyer you should be well aware of that little game...namely inundating your opponent with reams of inconsequential information while holding back what they are actually seeking. The committee wants to know WHO in the DOJ knew about Fast & Furious and WHEN it is they knew it. Attorney General Holder has stone walled that effort from the get go. THAT is why contempt charges are being sought against him.

As for a subpoena for Mukasey? Why...so he could tell the committee why Operation Wide Receiver was stopped by the Bush Administration? I'm sorry but the OBAMA DOJ under Eric Holder decided to restart a program that had been halted by a previous administration because it was shown that even with the cooperation of Mexican authorities that they couldn't keep track of where the guns were going...but Holder's people then took it much further...not informing the Mexican authorities that they were going to let guns walk and NOT EVEN ATTEMPTING TO MAKE ARRESTS.

for the record, my objection is not to holder having to answer questions. when things go bad, they always have to get explained.

my objection is to issa, who promised an investigation a day, using something which should be bi-partisan to score political points and try to embarrass holder, who the right has had an issue with from day one.

i also have issues with them allowing a conspiracy theorist like the "break their windows not" blogger, to influence the actions of our political machine.

as for mukasey... if you have credible evidence that the bush admin stopped their program of "gun walking", then i would very much like to see it. but given that the program was the same, he should speak to it as well. bi-partisan actionl; bi-partisan investigation instead of opportunistic nonsense by issa and friends.

it is often true, even in our own domestic investigations, that criminal activity is allowed as a means to obtain evidence against bigger and bigger fish. i don't think this was any different.

Do you not recognize the fact that Eric Holder has been "less than truthful" in his testimony to Congress thus far, Jillian? Do you have an explanation better than he "misunderstood the question" to explain why he lied to the committee during his first testimony? The REASON that Eric Holder is being "embarrassed" is that he was in charge of an operation that was REALLY REALLY REALLY stupid!

As for "credible evidence" that the Bush Administration stopped their program? I didn't realize that fact was even in question, Jillian. Operation Wide Receiver was in fact halted because the ATF found that even with the full cooperation of the Mexican government that they were losing far too many of the "walked" guns. Do I really have to link that for you? You're a big girl...I'm assuming you know how to do research on topics as well as I do?

As for your theory that this was about catching "bigger fish"? Only if the "big fish" that you're looking to land is stricter gun control laws. Unlike the Bush program, Fast & Furious was NEVER about making arrests, Jillian...that's what incensed the ATF agents who blew the whistle on the program so much. They were told NOT TO MAKE ARRESTS...that in order to make an omelet you needed to break a few eggs...and in this case the omelet was gun control laws and the eggs getting broken were Brian Terry and hundreds of Mexican nationals.