Does God want us to judge him?

[RWS]

The reason I have a problem with that, is that these religious zealots cause a lot of problems on this Earth, and have led to countless brutal deaths, and rapes, and torture, and human trafficking.

That is what religions, at least the 3 major Trinity religions, have given us.

We would be so far more advanced, spiritually and intellectually, had they not ever come along.

 

[RWS]

People like me, who are looking from outside the box, are wondering what it is that makes these people so crazy that they would such things?!?

When their religions are fundamentally wrong, because they are based on plagiarized far-more-ancient Mesopotamian texts?

There's a simple reason, and it's power (and with it, wealth).

 

[RWS]

Religion IS a tool, like you said.

But it is not a tool for good. It is a tool to create armies that are willing to die for rulers that promise them false eternal salvation. So that the rulers can get more power and more money.

This is how these religions proliferated. And it's what is still being fought about today.

It's a scam, to get you to fight and/or contribute, to the rulers. For their benefit, not yours.

 

[RWS]

The Vatican has up to TWO TRILLION DOLLARS in wealth, and maybe more. That's TRILLION with a "TR".

They could eradicate human sickness and hunger with a waive of a hand. And it wouldn't even make a bump in their bank accounts. But they don't. They do a little, but not even a fraction of the extent they could do. And they continue to make huge profits every year, which they also like to hide.

Why?

Because it's now their money, not ours. We do not count in their scheme, as much as we think we do. Religions are profit-making companies, as much as it hurts to hear it. And they make their profits from the people who were born-into or forced to believe in them, and the belief they have to pay for their religion (whether in battle or contributions).

You would think God could just "poof" them the money, if they were truly in touch with him.... But no, it requires followers. LOTS of followers. And creating even more followers almost always requires murder, suffering, and subjugation.

 

[ding]

Can bad trees produce good fruit?

I don't think it's that because Catholics believe in Faith + Works in order to get to heaven. The bad trees are usually non-believers, but even then that does not mean every non-believer does not produce good fruit. I suppose there is no generalization. People who have learned the Bible better than I know much more on this. Maybe you're one of those people.

True faith is marked by action. If you say you have faith but there is no action, do you really have faith?

Let me ask this a different way, what would it look like if someone proclaimed they had faith but it was really just lip service?

Faith in Jesus is in one's heart. Eventually, this leads to works, as a good tree produces good fruit as you said, but works is not a requirement. Jesus saved all when he died in our place. His perfect life is what Adam was supposed to be. We cannot have anything more than the sacrifice Jesus made. It was so great, that once saved, always saved.

Of course, this does not mean lip service. The faith has to be sincere from the heart.

So what would it look like if it were lip service?

 

[ding]

The Vatican has up to TWO TRILLION DOLLARS in wealth, and maybe more. That's TRILLION with a "TR".

They could eradicate human sickness and hunger with a waive of a hand. And it wouldn't even make a bump in their bank accounts. But they don't. They do a little, but not even a fraction of the extent they could do. And they continue to make huge profits every year, which they also like to hide.

Why?

Because it's now their money, not ours. We do not count in their scheme, as much as we think we do. Religions are profit-making companies, as much as it hurts to hear it. And they make their profits from the people who were born-into or forced to believe in them, and the belief they have to pay for their religion (whether in battle or contributions).

You would think God could just "poof" them the money, if they were truly in touch with him.... But no, it requires followers. LOTS of followers. And creating even more followers almost always requires murder and subjugation.

Is that in cash?

Does it even bother you a little that you sound exactly like Karl Marx?

 

[ding]

Religion IS a tool, like you said.

But it is not a tool for good. It is a tool to create armies that are willing to die for rulers that promise them false eternal salvation. So that the rulers can get more power and more money.

This is how these religions proliferated. And it's what is still being fought about today.

It's a scam, to get you to fight and/or contribute, to the rulers. For their benefit, not yours.

You should totally debate me on it then in the bull ring. It sounds like you would have your way with me.

 

[ding]

People like me, who are looking from outside the box, are wondering what it is that makes these people so crazy that they would such things?!?

When their religions are fundamentally wrong, because they are based on plagiarized far-more-ancient Mesopotamian texts?

There's a simple reason, and it's power (and with it, wealth).

You are certainly outside of the box. You are so far outside the box looks like a dot to you.

 

[ding]

The reason I have a problem with that, is that these religious zealots cause a lot of problems on this Earth, and have led to countless brutal deaths, and rapes, and torture, and human trafficking.

That is what religions, at least the 3 major Trinity religions, have given us.

We would be so far more advanced, spiritually and intellectually, had they not ever come along.

You certainly have an idealized view of the path not taken. Which is pretty amazing considering you really don't seem to know what you are talking about.

Seriously, if you put the half the effort in real life that you put into defending the world against the tyranny of world religion, you wouldn't be working night shifts.

 

[ding]

I was born Roman Catholic. And I rejected it at an early age.

This is a funny post coming directly after asserting the only reason someone is Catholic is because they were born into it.

Is there anything else you rejected in your upbringing or just the religion you were born into?

When people make any major decision, there are generally at least three reasons that factor into that decision--and that rule of three occurs in people who reject the religion they were born into and those who continue to practice the religion into which they were born. In the family into which I was born, more moved away from religion than stayed with it. Everyone had their three reasons (and most these reasons varied from person to person).

I was born Roman Catholic. I rejected it as being false based on logic at an early age. Most people don't reject their birthright religion, and claim it's true for the rest of their lives, no matter what. It's what they were born into believing, and changing that will result in catastrophic psychological problems.

For instance, some of the above are absolutely sure that the Earth and Universe was created approximately 6000 years ago. And maybe flat-Earthers too, but I'm not sure yet. There's no argument that will change their mind. Jus sayin... It's crazy... And it's only because they were born into that belief! They don't know any better. It's like still believing in Santa Claus even after you get told he doesn't exist! They refuse to let it go.

And materialists like yourself intentionally deny examination because your beliefs are irrational. Instead you believe in a a vague, rosy notion of something good, noble and just: the advent of these things will bring instant euphoria and a social order beyond reproach if only religion would cease to exist. Your materialism has an extraordinary ability to incite and inflame you to an antireligion fervor. You dismiss your defeats and ignore your incongruities. Your dogma has reached a status of religion and explains your hostility towards traditional religions which is that of one rival religion over another. Your dogma is based on materialism, primitive instincts, atheism and the deification of man. You see no distinction between good and evil, no morality or any other kind of value, save pleasure. You practice moral relativity, indiscriminate indiscriminateness, multiculturalism, cultural Marxism and normalization of deviance. You worship science but are the first to reject it when it suits your purposes. You can be identified by an external locus of control. You practice critical theory which is the Cultural Marxist theory to criticize what you do not believe to arrive at what you do believe without ever having to examine what you believe. You confuse critical theory for critical thinking. Critical thinking is the practice of challenging what one does believe to test its validity. Something you never do.

 

[Taz]

God wants us to judge him, otherwise, how is He ever going to improve?

Is it because he created inferior races? And it needs to be shown? So He can improve?

God created deformed and retarded babies that live a short life in constant pain. Fucking doucher.

Then you should give God what for when you meet him.

I would if He existed.

So when you discover that God does exist your plan is to tell him what for?

If I discover that god exist yes, I’ll ask wtf he’s doing.

 

[Meriweather]

I'm arguing that Jesus did not advocate practicing rituals such as baptizing infants. Baptism isn't what saves. Faith in Jesus is what saves us. All of these "sacraments" are formal rituals that the powers that be in the RCC made up as dogma. If that works for you, then fine, but my question is will believers be misled by the Antichrist when he rises to power. Some people believe it could be the Pope, but I don't think so. Yet, the whoever the Pope is during those times can be swayed. Catholics pray to statues and the Pope makes news around the world when he makes his personal statements. Pope Francis has been used by the media when they have their own agenda.

Maybe I better stop here because there are many differences between the RCC and Protestant sects and it just opens up a can of worms.

Jesus taught that even children should come to him. My infant baptism did exactly that. I was interested in Bible and Church from the time I was a toddler. Christ welcomed me, a little child. By the way, even at that age I understood Catholics were not "praying to statues" so I know you understand your words are not true.

Protestants talk about "saves" meaning they want heaven. Catholics talk about redemption, which means we want to follow Christ's example in how to live this life, not Adam and Eve's example.

The Catholic Church follows the example set fort by the Apostles in the first century. Protestants made up their own policies in the fourteenth century. By the way, the "Antichrist" is anything and anyone that is the opposite of Christ. At the time Revelation was written, Nero held that title. In our time I would argue Abortion and Divorce hold that title.

Whether it was deliberate or not, Protestant deceit and dishonesty about Catholic worship and practices is what created that can of worms you mention. Catholics understand we are practicing a life now that revolves around Jesus. Too often posts here leave the impression that Protestants are focused on the Antichrist. These posts also given the impression that there is no interest in putting into practice today what Jesus taught. Rather, their only interest appears to be the certainty they will, in the future, be in heaven.

I don't mind discussing Catholic versus Protestant practices--as long as each of us refrains from spouting his belief of what, how, and why the other practices as they do. Let the Catholic or the Protestant speak only of their own beliefs--and not what they imagine or heard the other does. I don't care if Protestants don't baptize their children. I can only say how glad I am that I was baptized as an infant. It changed my life.

 

[Meriweather]

I was born Roman Catholic. I rejected it as being false based on logic at an early age. Most people don't reject their birthright religion, and claim it's true for the rest of their lives, no matter what. It's what they were born into believing, and changing that will result in catastrophic psychological problems.

For instance, some of the above are absolutely sure that the Earth and Universe was created approximately 6000 years ago. And maybe flat-Earthers too, but I'm not sure yet. There's no argument that will change their mind. Jus sayin... It's crazy... And it's only because they were born into that belief! They don't know any better. It's like still believing in Santa Claus even after you get told he doesn't exist! They refuse to let it go.

Meanwhile, I discovered it was true at an early age.

Keep in mind, there are some of us who know (to use your analogy) that at an early age some gave up exploring religion/the spiritual realm. They as much decided that religion/spiritual realm was created by man approximately six thousand years ago and no argument will change their mind. They believe religion/spiritual realm is flat! And it's all because of the birth of that logic they bought into at an early age that prevents any further exploration! They don't know any better. It's like still believing in Santa Claus because every Christmas logic tells you he is at the mall, so no need for any further explanation of Santa.

I know you think people of faith are ignorant. Keep in mind this goes both ways. We pity you your ignorance, an ignorance you have renamed "logic".

So here's my solution: Let's not be so hasty to tell others what they are doing and why they are doing it. Instead, telling others what we do (or did) and why we do it should suffice.

 

[Meriweather]

The reason I have a problem with that, is that these religious zealots cause a lot of problems on this Earth, and have led to countless brutal deaths, and rapes, and torture, and human trafficking.

That is what religions, at least the 3 major Trinity religions, have given us.

We would be so far more advanced, spiritually and intellectually, had they not ever come along.

It has been shown/proven that those with no beliefs are also responsible for "countless brutal deaths, and rapes, and torture, and human trafficking."

That's what lack of civility, virtue, religion has given us.

The truth is that mankind is capable of all the above. Predators will clothe themselves in whatever camouflage is available to prey on others. Basically what you are calling for is to end religion so that religion camouflage is not available. Do you really think that a lack of one type of camouflage is going to stop predators?

 

[Meriweather]

People like me, who are looking from outside the box,

Sorry, this may be an example of creating an even smaller box, crawling in, and shutting that door. This can be identified when nothing new is offered, and only old platitudes from other atheists are being repeated.

 

[Meriweather]

The Vatican has up to TWO TRILLION DOLLARS in wealth, and maybe more. That's TRILLION with a "TR".

It is not liquid wealth. But say it were and the church solved the problem of poverty and hunger today. That same poverty and hunger would return tomorrow. Whose trillion dollars will you offer next? Keep in mind the Church has keeping of places and art that tell its history down through the ages. These places and art are still inspiring people today. They feed spiritual hunger and poverty.

 

[Taz]

The Vatican has up to TWO TRILLION DOLLARS in wealth, and maybe more. That's TRILLION with a "TR".

It is not liquid wealth. But say it were and the church solved the problem of poverty and hunger today. That same poverty and hunger would return tomorrow. Whose trillion dollars will you offer next? Keep in mind the Church has keeping of places and art that tell its history down through the ages. These places and art are still inspiring people today. They feed spiritual hunger and poverty.

And they need the money to pay off all the pedophile victims. 2 trillion might not cover them all.

 

[james bond]

Most people don't reject their birthright religion, and claim it's true for the rest of their lives, no matter what. It's what they were born into believing, and changing that will result in catastrophic psychological problems.

LMAO. It sounds like you have catastrophic psychological problems believing this. I rebelled against it because of them always putting too much guilt upon you. I thought the Catholic school kids were worse than public school kids. My parents moved, so they took me out of the private Catholic school and I went to public school. It wasn't the religion that I questioned, but whether God exists or not. I found him during college through faith and it wasn't a Christian God, but a universal one. The Christian God confused me because of society's problems. Is abortion murder? Is homosexuality a sin? Should gays be allowed to marry? Society used to support the Catholic and Christian God, but it's become less Christian. The US is still a Christian nation, but the world is changing for the worse due to lack of objective morals. It's probably society that has the catastrophic psychological problems and thus we are doomed again. The prophecies in the Bible have been coming true.

 

[james bond]

The Vatican has up to TWO TRILLION DOLLARS in wealth, and maybe more. That's TRILLION with a "TR".

It is not liquid wealth. But say it were and the church solved the problem of poverty and hunger today. That same poverty and hunger would return tomorrow. Whose trillion dollars will you offer next? Keep in mind the Church has keeping of places and art that tell its history down through the ages. These places and art are still inspiring people today. They feed spiritual hunger and poverty.

I don't begrudge the wealth and am not one of those who argues Protestants vs. Catholics. I still have friends who are Catholic and would attend a Mass. What's important now is whether a believer can be misled. Satan is god of the world and prince of the power of the air, so he is quite convincing in leading one astray. One has to have faith to stay on the straight and narrow path. Even if you think you are on the right path, one could be one degree off and then after a while they would have veered off the path by quite a distance.

 

[james bond]

Can bad trees produce good fruit?

I don't think it's that because Catholics believe in Faith + Works in order to get to heaven. The bad trees are usually non-believers, but even then that does not mean every non-believer does not produce good fruit. I suppose there is no generalization. People who have learned the Bible better than I know much more on this. Maybe you're one of those people.

True faith is marked by action. If you say you have faith but there is no action, do you really have faith?

Let me ask this a different way, what would it look like if someone proclaimed they had faith but it was really just lip service?

Faith in Jesus is in one's heart. Eventually, this leads to works, as a good tree produces good fruit as you said, but works is not a requirement. Jesus saved all when he died in our place. His perfect life is what Adam was supposed to be. We cannot have anything more than the sacrifice Jesus made. It was so great, that once saved, always saved.

Of course, this does not mean lip service. The faith has to be sincere from the heart.

So what would it look like if it were lip service?

I'm not sure what it would look like, but over time the behaviors would be different. Would you be able to tell the difference?