Does the size of the national debt really matter?

[westwall]

As always; look at the research!!

Ignore the actual results, that ended in horror for most countries.




I don't get it.

You see it works on paper, then you see the results fail, multiple times in real life, but then you want to do whats on the paper again.


I'll repeat

Spending got us to where we are today.


since this is going over liberal heads;

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

oft thought to be a quote of Einstein.

First of all, I think you have a mechanical problem with your post; I have no idea what you are talking about.

It does seem however that you are one of the folks who don't give a shit about research or professionalism at all; you're interest is limited to what suits your pre-conceived notions. If you had a brain, I would argue with you, but since you don't, such an effort is futile. You dismiss evidence you haven't even read and seem proud of it.

No, we care a great deal about it. However we also know how to read. And through our reading of history, the "theories" being presented don't fare too well. All you are doing is arguing that "well, WE weren't the ones doing it last time so this time we can make it work."

I hate to tell you but your track records suck. AGW "theory" is likewise based on a lot of assumptions and have all sorts of experts espousing their opinions about how good their research is.......and look how well they are turning out.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

you're interest is limited to what suits your pre-conceived notions.

dear, our interest is in the truth. China and many many other countries switched to capitalism. Do you know why? Do you know what happened to them after they switched?

 

[Wry Catcher]

Then it should horrify you for the federal government to have the power to spend 25% of GDP.

The Federal Government can be changed peacefully or violently, as anyone who has studied history should know. In Nov. 2010 we had a major change driven by the power elite who convinced the voters that any change to health care in America was the first step on the road to communism. The dumb ones bought that 'argument' hook, line and sinker. Much as they did when the issue of gun control was comported into the wholesale confiscation and a repeal of the Second Amendment. Lies, lies and more lies.

The hoi polloi on the right are stupid and so easily manipulated it would be funny if not so serious. They still think the GOP will be able to repeal Roe, not knowing that the power elite don't give a damn about the unborn, their only reason to be anti abortion is because it gets votes. So, why would they ever repeal Roe. Hell, when they controlled the White House and both Houses of The Congress nary a bill was floated on the issue. And still the dumb bunnies believe.

You talk like you're actually intelligent, yet nothing comes out when you move your lips, it's just a bunch of jibberish. The superiority of LOLberal retards that "think" they know what is best for everyone knows absolutely no bounds. Further, you changed the subject entirely because you have no valid response...as usual.

As usual, your only response is to attack me and not my argument. I suppose you feel affronted since I called the hoi polloi on the right stupid; I'm sorry you took that personally.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It is commonly thought that the huge debt is a drag on the economy, Paul Ryan and the GOP have adopted this putative as a basis to attack Obama, toss Bush II under the bus and impede efforts to create jobs, stimulate the economy and repair, replace and renovate our aging infrastructure.

What if Ryan and the GOP are wrong?

See:

How a student took on eminent economists on debt issue - and won

Only if you live in the real world.

By the way, your link just talks about an error in the paper that affects the final rate of growth rather drastically. The problem you still have is that a growth rate of 2.2% is considered really bad for the economy. Since, even with the corrections, this is projected to be the normal rate with the debt burden you want to pretend doesn't matter, something still needs to be done.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Fascinating.

I am of the opinion that the debt means something real ONLY to the extend that our MONEY means something real.

And given that SOME OF US are granted the power to invent money in various ways, money that basically has NO RIGHT TO EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE, I am of the opinion that the debt crises is entirely an artifical construct designed to keep those with power, in power.

There is no greater power in a money-driven economic system than the power to invent money at will.

Monetary policy aside, it is curious that the debt seems to be the only point of focus of concern by the GOP leadership and many of their followers. I take a panoptic view, of course if the GOP did so they would need to acknowledge the roof is leaking, the rains are sure to come and pragmatic decisions need to replace ideology.

Only real leaders would do so, and sagacious leaders in the GOP are a rare bread indeed. Taking the long view the GOP would need to repudiate their current rhetoric and admit deficit and debt reductions cannot be the only focus during a time of economic malaise.

Instead the GOP has refocused itself on the traditional wedge issues, Abortion, God, Guns, Gays and defending the wealthy and the financial services industry from the tax man, even as fees and taxes rise for the great number of our citizens. It is a policy of self interest by a party whose view of governance is to get out of the way; a nice idea in theory, not so good in practice.

Last time I paid attention to the vast right wing conspiracy they were worried about the deficit, not the debt. You should learn the difference.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It is commonly thought that the huge debt is a drag on the economy, Paul Ryan and the GOP have adopted this putative as a basis to attack Obama, toss Bush II under the bus and impede efforts to create jobs, stimulate the economy and repair, replace and renovate our aging infrastructure.

What if Ryan and the GOP are wrong?

See:

How a student took on eminent economists on debt issue - and won

Wrong about what?

Everyone agrees that the debt is a drag, including Obama, Ryan, Gop, Democrats and the study you cited.

Some people of course expect the debt to benefit you more than it costs. I don't since taking debt is just too great of an incentive for politicians to just blow your money, buying votes and doing very little that's worhwhile, or something that anyone would do with their own cash. Also since US is supposedly recovering, and is already very indebted, there is no point in taking more debt.

Of course paying interest prevents using one's money more wisely. But the Federal Government is not a person and no one will ever foreclose on the United States. We need to create jobs and our nation's infrastructure is in need of attention. We need to raise revenues and creating jobs does just that, and we need the Congress to prioritize how best to spend the money to aid the nation, not focus on those who bribe or threaten them.

Cutting services and benefits to the aged and infirm does not make their needs go away. They will seek help from their state and local government - both of which are also cutting away bone - the fat was gone decades ago.

Do you want a list of the various governments throughout history that were positive debt did not matter because no one would ever call them on it?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Of course paying interest prevents using one's money more wisely. But the Federal Government is not a person and no one will ever foreclose on the United States. We need to create jobs and our nation's infrastructure is in need of attention. We need to raise revenues and creating jobs does just that, and we need the Congress to prioritize how best to spend the money to aid the nation, not focus on those who bribe or threaten them.

Cutting services and benefits to the aged and infirm does not make their needs go away. They will seek help from their state and local government - both of which are also cutting away bone - the fat was gone decades ago.

Instead the GOP has refocused itself on the traditional wedge issues, Abortion, God, Guns, Gays and defending the wealthy and the financial services industry from the tax man...

First we need to create private sector jobs to grow the economy and raise revenues.

Do you not know that private contractors hire private sector employees to complete government projects (roads, bridges, etc.)?

However, I'm more curious as to why you think we need to raise revenues and collect more taxes from the wealthy and financial services (specifically for some reason) when the whole point of the OP is, oh that's right... the size of the debt does not matter.



You sarcasm aside we need to reduce the annual deficits; some of the cuts advocated by Ryan and the GOP have impacts on local and state government, many of which are in fiscal trouble. I also stated spending on interest is not a good idea, but, the danger of the debt has been exaggerated for political expediency.

Too funny.

On EDIT:

Not for nothing but I forgot to add that it was the Democrat Party who "refocused itself on the traditional wedge issues, Abortion, God, Guns, Gays", not the Republicans. The Dems wanted brand spanking new gun regulations and laws and have been driving the issue through their media pals. It's the Dems who, through the ongoing writing and rewriting of Obamacare are bringing up issues like abortion, contraception and religious freedom. And finally it's the Democrats who are flopping like dominoes to a new post-election position on gay marriage. (granted, they are flip flopping to the correct position on gay marriage IMO but that's not the point) The point is your point is full of crap.

I believe too much wealth in the hands of too few is the road to hell for a demoratic republic. When the legislatures in the states (and even council members in cities and counties) and the Congress are primarily focused on their own jobs (getting reelected) we are already on that road to perdition.

I believe apple pie made America great. Unlike you, I refrain from injecting my beliefs into a real world discussion of government debt.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I believe too much wealth in the hands of too few is the road to hell for a demoratic republic. When the legislatures in the states (and even council members in cities and counties) and the Congress are primarily focused on their own jobs (getting reelected) we are already on that road to perdition.

Then it should horrify you for the federal government to have the power to spend 25% of GDP.

The Federal Government can be changed peacefully or violently, as anyone who has studied history should know. In Nov. 2010 we had a major change driven by the power elite who convinced the voters that any change to health care in America was the first step on the road to communism. The dumb ones bought that 'argument' hook, line and sinker. Much as they did when the issue of gun control was comported into the wholesale confiscation and a repeal of the Second Amendment. Lies, lies and more lies.

The hoi polloi on the right are stupid and so easily manipulated it would be funny if not so serious. They still think the GOP will be able to repeal Roe, not knowing that the power elite don't give a damn about the unborn, their only reason to be anti abortion is because it gets votes. So, why would they ever repeal Roe. Hell, when they controlled the White House and both Houses of The Congress nary a bill was floated on the issue. And still the dumb bunnies believe.

What?

In 2010 we had a consolidation of power over health insurance that forces everyone in America to do business with people that, according to you, care about nothing but money. They are part of the unequal distribution of wealth that you whined about in this very thread, and now you are defending that power shift because it was done in the name of the general welfare.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It is commonly thought that the huge debt is a drag on the economy, Paul Ryan and the GOP have adopted this putative as a basis to attack Obama, toss Bush II under the bus and impede efforts to create jobs, stimulate the economy and repair, replace and renovate our aging infrastructure.

What if Ryan and the GOP are wrong?

See:

How a student took on eminent economists on debt issue - and won

This is going to get very ugly very quickly. The R--R paper and book are virtually the only evidence of a statistically significant negative effect on growth caused by public debt. No one has been able to replicate R--R's results, because they were very vague about their dataset. Now it turns out they committed errors and used a highly deceptive methodology that explains their results. In short, they committed an academic fraud, have been caught at it, and the entire basis of their 90% debt-to-GDP threshold beloved by Ryan is completely bogus.

I have read the R--R paper, the Hansen paper, and the OECD study. If anyone wants to argue the merits of the R--R thesis, I suggest they do the same. Anyone making an argument by quoting political second hand sources on this is a charlatan. This is clearly the biggest scandal to hit the econometrics profession in more than a half century.

how is an admitted regrettable slip that doesn't change the result a scandal??????????????

Here's what authors said: "We do not, however, believe this regrettable slip affects in any significant way the central message of the paper or that in our subsequent work."

Also, common sense will tell us the authors are right. The more soviet bureaucrats waste on welfare and Solyndra bridges to nowhere, the slower the economy will get because the money is not being wisely and efficiently spent, saved, and invested by those who earned it.

Strangely enough, the student who "proved them wrong" doesn't either.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Then it should horrify you for the federal government to have the power to spend 25% of GDP.

The Federal Government can be changed peacefully or violently, as anyone who has studied history should know. In Nov. 2010 we had a major change driven by the power elite who convinced the voters that any change to health care in America was the first step on the road to communism. The dumb ones bought that 'argument' hook, line and sinker. Much as they did when the issue of gun control was comported into the wholesale confiscation and a repeal of the Second Amendment. Lies, lies and more lies.

The hoi polloi on the right are stupid and so easily manipulated it would be funny if not so serious. They still think the GOP will be able to repeal Roe, not knowing that the power elite don't give a damn about the unborn, their only reason to be anti abortion is because it gets votes. So, why would they ever repeal Roe. Hell, when they controlled the White House and both Houses of The Congress nary a bill was floated on the issue. And still the dumb bunnies believe.

You talk like you're actually intelligent, yet nothing comes out when you move your lips, it's just a bunch of jibberish. The superiority of LOLberal retards that "think" they know what is best for everyone knows absolutely no bounds. Further, you changed the subject entirely because you have no valid response...as usual.

There are times I think he had a stroke. He used to make thought provoking posts, even if I disagreed with him, now all I see is drooling behind the screen.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It is commonly thought that the huge debt is a drag on the economy, Paul Ryan and the GOP have adopted this putative as a basis to attack Obama, toss Bush II under the bus and impede efforts to create jobs, stimulate the economy and repair, replace and renovate our aging infrastructure.

What if Ryan and the GOP are wrong?

See:

How a student took on eminent economists on debt issue - and won

It’s not so much the size of the debt but the appropriateness of attempting to address it now before full economic recovery.

Once Americans are back to work and the economy fully recovered, we can address the issue of the debt.

The problem is conservatives and republicans want to address the debt now predicated not on facts but rightist fiscal dogma, where ‘debt’ doesn’t conform to that dogma.

Indeed, most conservatives and republicans advocate ‘debt reduction’ not to promote economic health but as part of a hidden agenda to raze the New Deal/Fair Deal/Great Society edifice.

Tell you what, show me some type of example of the government actually getting serious about the debt, and staying that way, and I will be glad to stop demanding that we do something even if it hurts us now.

On the other hand, if you can't find such an example, perhaps you should stop listening to the people who say we will deal with it later.

 

[Wry Catcher]

The Federal Government can be changed peacefully or violently, as anyone who has studied history should know. In Nov. 2010 we had a major change driven by the power elite who convinced the voters that any change to health care in America was the first step on the road to communism. The dumb ones bought that 'argument' hook, line and sinker. Much as they did when the issue of gun control was comported into the wholesale confiscation and a repeal of the Second Amendment. Lies, lies and more lies.

The hoi polloi on the right are stupid and so easily manipulated it would be funny if not so serious. They still think the GOP will be able to repeal Roe, not knowing that the power elite don't give a damn about the unborn, their only reason to be anti abortion is because it gets votes. So, why would they ever repeal Roe. Hell, when they controlled the White House and both Houses of The Congress nary a bill was floated on the issue. And still the dumb bunnies believe.

You talk like you're actually intelligent, yet nothing comes out when you move your lips, it's just a bunch of jibberish. The superiority of LOLberal retards that "think" they know what is best for everyone knows absolutely no bounds. Further, you changed the subject entirely because you have no valid response...as usual.

There are times I think he had a stroke. He used to make thought provoking posts, even if I disagreed with him, now all I see is drooling behind the screen.

Unlike Obama I realized long ago the right wing isn't rational or informed. I post what I believe and people like you respond with personal attacks. There are sound arguments for fiscal discipline but you and those on the right take the dogmatic approach - all spending and taxes are evil (that's a bit of hyperbole, but only a bit).

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Unlike Obama I realized long ago the right wing isn't rational or informed.

please cut the liberal evasion BS and tell us exactly why it doesn't matter if the debt is $16 or $32 trillion or admit you lack the IQ to do so.

 

[Toro]

although the most dramatic version of the RR stylised fact has not survived, even HAP confirm that the RR cross-country database does show that higher public debt ratios are usually associated with lower GDP growth rates. This is a standard result from macro-economics, which has been established over long periods in many other studies. No surprise there.

How much of Reinhart/Rogoff has survived? | Gavyn Davies

So, even though the 90% threshold has probably been discredited - the level at which R&R contend growth drops significantly once it is reached - it still holds that higher amounts of debt lead to lower growth.

 

[boedicca]

Then it should horrify you for the federal government to have the power to spend 25% of GDP.

The Federal Government can be changed peacefully or violently, as anyone who has studied history should know. In Nov. 2010 we had a major change driven by the power elite who convinced the voters that any change to health care in America was the first step on the road to communism. The dumb ones bought that 'argument' hook, line and sinker. Much as they did when the issue of gun control was comported into the wholesale confiscation and a repeal of the Second Amendment. Lies, lies and more lies.

The hoi polloi on the right are stupid and so easily manipulated it would be funny if not so serious. They still think the GOP will be able to repeal Roe, not knowing that the power elite don't give a damn about the unborn, their only reason to be anti abortion is because it gets votes. So, why would they ever repeal Roe. Hell, when they controlled the White House and both Houses of The Congress nary a bill was floated on the issue. And still the dumb bunnies believe.

What?

In 2010 we had a consolidation of power over health insurance that forces everyone in America to do business with people that, according to you, care about nothing but money. They are part of the unequal distribution of wealth that you whined about in this very thread, and now you are defending that power shift because it was done in the name of the general welfare.

And they also donate lots of money to Obama and the Dems!

The campaign funding must flow...

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Fascinating.

I am of the opinion that the debt means something real ONLY to the extend that our MONEY means something real.

And given that SOME OF US are granted the power to invent money in various ways, money that basically has NO RIGHT TO EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE, I am of the opinion that the debt crises is entirely an artifical construct designed to keep those with power, in power.

There is no greater power in a money-driven economic system than the power to invent money at will.

And given that SOME OF US are granted the power to invent money in various ways

Did you ever buy a house with a mortgage? Take out a car loan?
If so, you invented money. I won't tell if you don't.

That is incorrect on so many levels it hurts knowing someone had the balls to post it.

Borrowing doesn't increase the money supply? Really?

 

[Wry Catcher]

Unlike Obama I realized long ago the right wing isn't rational or informed.

please cut the liberal evasion BS and tell us exactly why it doesn't matter if the debt is $16 or $32 trillion or admit you lack the IQ to do so.

You're an arrogant asshole and ill deserving of a civil response.

For others let me state what I wrote above. I would rather see the government spent its fiscal resources on needed services and projects, then to service the debt. I didn't write it doesn't matter if the debt is $16 or $32 trillion dollars, that comment is simply a lie.

We cannot satisfy the debt in a year or a decade. What we need to do is reduce the deficit but do so in a way which does not Rob Peter (state and local government) to pay the Koch Brothers.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

You talk like you're actually intelligent, yet nothing comes out when you move your lips, it's just a bunch of jibberish. The superiority of LOLberal retards that "think" they know what is best for everyone knows absolutely no bounds. Further, you changed the subject entirely because you have no valid response...as usual.

There are times I think he had a stroke. He used to make thought provoking posts, even if I disagreed with him, now all I see is drooling behind the screen.

Unlike Obama I realized long ago the right wing isn't rational or informed. I post what I believe and people like you respond with personal attacks. There are sound arguments for fiscal discipline but you and those on the right take the dogmatic approach - all spending and taxes are evil (that's a bit of hyperbole, but only a bit).

Well, conservatives love military spending, and wasting treasure on illegal wars.

And they don’t have a problem with taxes, either, provided the rich aren’t paying them.

 

[freedombecki]

There are times I think he had a stroke. He used to make thought provoking posts, even if I disagreed with him, now all I see is drooling behind the screen.

Unlike Obama I realized long ago the right wing isn't rational or informed. I post what I believe and people like you respond with personal attacks. There are sound arguments for fiscal discipline but you and those on the right take the dogmatic approach - all spending and taxes are evil (that's a bit of hyperbole, but only a bit).

Well, conservatives love military spending, and wasting treasure on illegal wars.

And they don’t have a problem with taxes, either, provided the rich aren’t paying them.

 

[westwall]

Unlike Obama I realized long ago the right wing isn't rational or informed.

please cut the liberal evasion BS and tell us exactly why it doesn't matter if the debt is $16 or $32 trillion or admit you lack the IQ to do so.

You're an arrogant asshole and ill deserving of a civil response.

For others let me state what I wrote above. I would rather see the government spent its fiscal resources on needed services and projects, then to service the debt. I didn't write it doesn't matter if the debt is $16 or $32 trillion dollars, that comment is simply a lie.

We cannot satisfy the debt in a year or a decade. What we need to do is reduce the deficit but do so in a way which does not Rob Peter (state and local government) to pay the Koch Brothers.

I don't know. Public employee's make far more than folks do in similar positions in the private sector. What was that Alameda City manager pulling down 400K...for life? Battalion chiefs pulling down 300K, hell the kiosk workers at the toll booths make over 60 when you take into account their benefits. All without a college education. Bart employees start at around 100K and most of their work can be done by computers.

I think public employees for the most part are being grossly overpaid in the Bay area.