Early Christmas presents for Ukraine: TANKS Panzerhaubitze 2000 - 10 rounds per minute, effective firing range 67km

[Mushroom]

TRAIN OF FRESH OUR TANKS ARRIVING FOR UKRAINE -- Replenishment for Armed Forces of Ukraine

Those are not tanks, and they are not being sent.

What Germany proposed was selling up to 100 self propelled 155 mm howitzers to Ukraine.

Notice, selling. Not giving them away, selling. The cost of this proposal is in excess of 1.7 billion euros. And Ukraine has yet to respond to the deal.

And finally, delivery will not start until late 2024. That is over 2 years away.

You really need to stop using garbage click-bait sites for your references.

 

[fncceo]

I suppose it's nice of Germany to donate those weapons indirectly to Russia ...

... but, doesn't Russia have enough weapons of their own?

It seems like coals to Newcastle.

 

[Litwin]

delivery will not start until late 2024. That is over 2 years away.

got any link ?

 

[Litwin]

I suppose it's nice of Germany to donate those weapons indirectly to Russia ...

... but, doesn't Russia have enough weapons of their own?

It seems like coals to Newcastle.

you joke is too old even for RT.ru

the reality :

The Ukrainian Army Has More Tanks Now Than When The War Began—Because It Keeps Capturing Them From Russia​

The Ukrainian Army Has More Tanks Now Than When The War BeganâBecause It Keeps Capturing Them From Russia

Ukraine uses many of the same models of tanks that Russia does. There's evidence that at least some of the Russian armor the Ukrainians have captured has been put back into use ... shooting at Russians.

www.forbes.com

by the way you represent the minority , the majority of Israelis support Ukraine

 

[Litwin]

 

[Litwin]

 

[Delldude]

Its a mobile canon, fancy word for big honking tank. Shoots a nice 6" shell.

Yeah baby!

Both are bulldozers with really big guns.

 

[Mushroom]

got any link ?

BERLIN, April 10 (Reuters) - Ukraine has received an offer of a sizeable shipment of self-propelled howitzer weapons from a German armaments company, a German government source said on Sunday.

German weekly Welt am Sonntag had reported on Saturday that armaments manufacturer Krauss-Maffei Wegmann offered 100 howitzers, a type of artillery weapon, to Ukraine, quoting anonymous government sources in Kyiv.

"This offer exists," the German source said to Reuters, without providing further details.

The Welt am Sonntag report said that the manufacturer did not currently have the weaponry ready for delivery and so had suggested that Germany's military offer 100 of its own howitzers to Kyiv and the manufacturer would then deliver the new weapons to Germany's army once ready - likely from the second half of 2024.

German arms maker offers weapons to Ukraine, German government source says

Ukraine has received an offer of a sizeable shipment of self-propelled howitzer weapons from a German armaments company, a German government source said on Sunday.

www.reuters.com

Now that proposal was actually made on 4 April, and as of 17 April Germany still has not made a decision. So far, the most they have committed to is allowing their own arms manufacturers to sell weapons to Ukraine. And that is all it is, a sale. Of weapons that have not even been made yet. And Germany has made no comment, so it is likely that they will not be sending their own howitzers to Ukraine, then buying new ones over the next 3-4 years.

 

[Mushroom]

Its a mobile canon, fancy word for big honking tank. Shoots a nice 6" shell.

It is a 155mm shell, not a 6 inch shell.

But there is a huge freaking difference between the two.

First of all, a howitzer is much lighter, as it only barely has armor. As in, they only weigh in at around 4-5 tons, as opposed to the 60+ tons of a tank. The armor is mostly to protect the crew from small arms fire, not to protect it from anything much more powerful than an RPG-LAW.

Also, a tank is designed to shoot on the move, a howitzer is not. They are also generally not direct-fire weapons. And instead of a unified round with both powder and projectile in a single safe and easy to use case, the round is separate from the powder bags. This is why they have longer ranges than a tank. They can use a lot more powder to fire their rounds, and their fire control is specialized for indirect fire.

The howitzer needs to be stopped and the rear door opened to fire, that is not the case of the tank.

 

[Litwin]

German arms maker offers weapons to Ukraine, German government source says

Ukraine has received an offer of a sizeable shipment of self-propelled howitzer weapons from a German armaments company, a German government source said on Sunday.

www.reuters.com

Now that proposal was actually made on 4 April, and as of 17 April Germany still has not made a decision. So far, the most they have committed to is allowing their own arms manufacturers to sell weapons to Ukraine. And that is all it is, a sale. Of weapons that have not even been made yet. And Germany has made no comment, so it is likely that they will not be sending their own howitzers to Ukraine, then buying new ones over the next 3-4 years.

public pressure will speed up this all , what do you think about czech 152mm self-propelled howitzers?

Czech Republic Supplies Heavy Weapons to Ukraine

The Czech Republic has sent to Ukraine about 20 RM-70 rocket launchers, a system similar to Russia’s “Grad” weapons, a senior defense ministry official said, ramping up deliveries of Soviet-style arms between former Communist states and Ukraine. Prague has also supplied 152mm self-propelled howitze

www.wsj.com

Czechs ship tanks, rocket launchers, artillery to Ukraine

The Czech Republic has delivered tanks, multiple rocket launchers, howitzers and infantry fighting vehicles to Ukraine among military shipments that have reached hundreds of millions of dollars and will continue, two Czech defence sources said.

www.reuters.com

 

[toobfreak]

It is a 155mm shell, not a 6 inch shell.

Yeah, well, since I live in the USA not Germany where we go by the British measuring system, I used inches. To be precise, it is a 6.1" shell. Happy?

First of all, a howitzer is much lighter, as it only barely has armor.

So the Russians should have little trouble taking these things out.

Also, a tank is designed to shoot on the move, a howitzer is not. They are also generally not direct-fire weapons. And instead of a unified round with both powder and projectile in a single safe and easy to use case, the round is separate from the powder bags. This is why they have longer ranges than a tank. They can use a lot more powder to fire their rounds, and their fire control is specialized for indirect fire.

All pretty technical stuff which the ordinary person would not know, but still, just a roundabout way of saying it is a fancy kind of specialized tank. Excuse me: mobile canon.

The howitzer needs to be stopped and the rear door opened to fire, that is not the case of the tank.

That would seem to be a serious liability.

 

[ESay]

Yeah, well, since I live in the USA not Germany where we go by the British measuring system, I used inches. To be precise, it is a 6.1" shell. Happy?


So the Russians should have little trouble taking these things out.


All pretty technical stuff which the ordinary person would not know, but still, just a roundabout way of saying it is a fancy kind of specialized tank. Excuse me: mobile canon.


That would seem to be a serious liability.

That is an example of comparing oranges with apples. Howitzers and tanks are different types of military hardware and they have different tasks at the battlefield.

No one compares say helicopters with jets because they both can fly.

 

[toobfreak]

That is an example of comparing oranges with apples. Howitzers and tanks are different types of military hardware and they have different tasks at the battlefield. No one compares say helicopters with jets because they both can fly.

No one compares helicopters to jets because they are two completely different kinds of machines and technology.

There is a world of difference between THIS:

and THIS:

Not so much between THIS:

and THIS:

 

[ESay]

No one compares helicopters to jets because they are two completely different kinds of machines and technology.

There is a world of difference between THIS: View attachment 632273and THIS: View attachment 632274

Not so much between THIS: View attachment 632275and THIS: View attachment 632276

Yes, it is. It is completely different types of hardware and used for different goals in the battlefield.

Howitzers can be based on a wheeled base, but their function remains the same.

 

[Mushroom]

Yeah, well, since I live in the USA not Germany where we go by the British measuring system, I used inches. To be precise, it is a 6.1" shell. Happy?

I live in the US also. And in the US Military, we call it the 155 mm shell. And no, simply converting it to Imperial is not the same thing.

Just as a .223 and a 5.56mm bullet are not the same thing.

So the Russians should have little trouble taking these things out.

It is artillery, it should not be on the front lines.

All pretty technical stuff which the ordinary person would not know, but still, just a roundabout way of saying it is a fancy kind of specialized tank. Excuse me: mobile canon.

But this is a military thread, where quite a few of us are subject matter experts in this area.

SImply shrugging off others that know more than you do pretty much says you do not care. SO why are you even here, then?

That would seem to be a serious liability.

No, because it is not a tank, it is artillery.

 

[Mushroom]

No one compares helicopters to jets because they are two completely different kinds of machines and technology.

There is a world of difference between THIS: View attachment 632273and THIS: View attachment 632274

Not so much between THIS: View attachment 632275and THIS: View attachment 632276

Actually, the comparisons are not quite right.

You are aware that modern helicopters are powered by jet engines, right? They have been for over 60 years now.

But there is just as big of a difference between a howitzer and a tank than between any other vastly different pieces of equipment.

Would you confuse this with a tank?

Because this literally is the same thing. An 155mm howitzer. The other one simply has it's own chassis to drive it around, instead of having to be towed. And I do mean that literally, it is the exact same gun. They just drive themselves, and can be emplaced and roadmarched faster.



However, as they have a limited number of rounds with them they are more used in a mobility phase of an operation, and are not as flexible as the towed variants.

However, as they are indirect fire weapons, there is a huge difference (without counting the armor and that they can be fired on the move) with a tank. As tanks are direct fire weapons.

In fact, the Howitzer has more in common with this:

Than it does with any tank.

 

[toobfreak]

Yes, it is. It is completely different types of hardware

As different from a jet and a helicopter? No.

The german mobile canon shoots a projectile on mobile treads, and the tank shoots a projectile on mobile treads. The only difference is the style of projectile and the intended end use, but show the german canon to 100 people and 99 of them will generally refer to it as a type of tank.

 

[toobfreak]

I live in the US also. And in the US Military, we call it the 155 mm shell.

Of course you do, because in germany, they use the metric system and it is built to 155mm. That doesn't change the fact that if I measure one, it will measure 6.102 inches as well.

And no, simply converting it to Imperial is not the same thing.

Of course it is.

No, because it is not a tank, it is artillery.

You are arguing small, technical differences. All I'm saying is that the german canon and a tank share many generally similar characteristics. The tank is more armored to get closer and shoots a smaller shell, the howitzer is less armored as it is meant to sit back farther and shoot a larger shell a greater distance, but both are mobile tread-driven combat guns shooting large shells. What you are arguing are minor technical differences only important to a commander in actual combat in deploying them. I guarantee you that from a few hundred or thousand feet away seeing either, civilians and maybe a lot of military won't know one from one and will generally call it a fucking TANK.

 

[Mushroom]

Of course you do, because in germany, they use the metric system and it is built to 155mm. That doesn't change the fact that if I measure one, it will measure 6.102 inches as well.

No, it is not.

Of course it is.

Once again, no it is not. Obviously you know nothing about the military or the equipment used.

.223 inches is the same as 5.56mm. But a 5.56mm bullet is not the same as a .223 bullet. And a 6 inch gun is not even close to a 155mm howitzer.

You are arguing small, technical differences. All I'm saying is that the german canon and a tank share many generally similar characteristics. The tank is more armored to get closer and shoots a smaller shell, the howitzer is less armored as it is meant to sit back farther and shoot a larger shell a greater distance, but both are mobile tread-driven combat guns shooting large shells. What you are arguing are minor technical differences only important to a commander in actual combat in deploying them. I guarantee you that from a few hundred or thousand feet away seeing either, civilians and maybe a lot of military won't know one from one and will generally call it a fucking TANK.

No, you are ignoring every major difference, and trying to argue that because it has tracks and a gun, it is the same thing.

I am simply amazed that you are making such a huge deal about this, and still insisting you are right. And no, most in the military would know it was a howitzer, because that is our freaking job to know such things! Just as we know the difference between a casualty and a fatality, cover and concealment, an order and a lawful order, and do not call Destroyers and Cruisers "Battleships". Just because you are ignorant of such, do not assume that everybody else is equally ignorant.

And please, name a single piece of US military ordinance made in the last 60 years that uses imperial measurements (short of ordinance made for equipment made before then, like the 16" shells for the Iowa class Battleships).

 

[toobfreak]

No, it is not.

Really? You want to BET ME that 6.102 inches doesn't equal 155mm? Please do.

I am simply amazed that you are making such a huge deal about this

You are the one making a big deal. And your're still at it. All I said was that a canon on a mobile tread-driven carrier is basically similar to a tank. I didn't imply any deep military analysis. And here it is right out of the Wikipedia: