End Labels part 1

[ShawnChris13]

I read all kinds of posts on this forum and the labels that everyone constantly places on each other only seem to hold back debates. I propose we go at least one thread without throwing out liberal, conservative, democrat, or republican. Independent and any other generic political term should not be used either. Instead let's just simply talk about our own ideas free from any anchor or politicians point of view.

So here: United States domestic policy on immigration. How do we fix it and help the families who are calling for reform without the projected strains this will place on the economy?

 

[bucs90]

Nice try. 1,565,364th time someone on this forum has tried to end labels. Not happening.

 

[Pennywise]

How do we fix it? That's funny. We enforce the border, prosecute employers who hire illegals, and imprison and then deport the aliens.

That's how we fix it.

 

[occupied]

Labels are not that bad if properly used but many apparently like to make up their own definitions to these words and that is where the trouble starts.

 

[RKMBrown]

How do we fix it? That's funny. We enforce the border, prosecute employers who hire illegals, and imprison and then deport the aliens.

That's how we fix it.

Can we add charge them for unpaid taxes, fine them 50k for each infraction, and attach riders on their future income in whatever country they came from?

 

[occupied]

I read all kinds of posts on this forum and the labels that everyone constantly places on each other only seem to hold back debates. I propose we go at least one thread without throwing out liberal, conservative, democrat, or republican. Independent and any other generic political term should not be used either. Instead let's just simply talk about our own ideas free from any anchor or politicians point of view.

So here: United States domestic policy on immigration. How do we fix it and help the families who are calling for reform without the projected strains this will place on the economy?

As to the question at hand, Illegal immigration is down a projected 82% last year as our stinking economy seems to have greatly mitigated the problem.

 

[Pennywise]

How do we fix it? That's funny. We enforce the border, prosecute employers who hire illegals, and imprison and then deport the aliens.

That's how we fix it.

Can we add charge them for unpaid taxes, fine them 50k for each infraction, and attach riders on their future income in whatever country they came from?

Works for me, and add that surcharge to the employers as well. Here's hint for the Feds- Chicken Processing Facilities.

 

[RKMBrown]

Labels are not that bad if properly used but many apparently like to make up their own definitions to these words and that is where the trouble starts.

Like "Patriot" when the Act is actually "UN-Patriotic?" Or Immigration Reform when the problem people are actually discussing is "Illegal Immigration."

 

[Baruch Menachem]

Nice try. 1,565,364th time someone on this forum has tried to end labels. Not happening.

It is still a good idea. Lables just confuse the issue.


Saying you are a conservative/liberal or a democrat /republican is basically saying you don't want to think or anaylycse.

So this is a good idea that isn't going anywhere. Pity that.

 

[RKMBrown]

How do we fix it? That's funny. We enforce the border, prosecute employers who hire illegals, and imprison and then deport the aliens.

That's how we fix it.

Can we add charge them for unpaid taxes, fine them 50k for each infraction, and attach riders on their future income in whatever country they came from?

Works for me, and add that surcharge to the employers as well. Here's hint for the Feds- Chicken Processing Facilities.

I like it we can use the money to fund enforcement, thus truly reforming how we manage illegal immigration by turning it into a self-sustaining practice.

 

[occupied]

Labels are not that bad if properly used but many apparently like to make up their own definitions to these words and that is where the trouble starts.

Like "Patriot" when the Act is actually "UN-Patriotic?" Or Immigration Reform when the problem people are actually discussing is "Illegal Immigration."

Depends on you definition of "patriot", apparently some think that all sorts of horrible things are admissible in the name of flag, god and country.

 

[ShawnChris13]

No one has yet addressed the citizens born here who want their patents to stay here that entered the country illegally. Isn't there a way to fix this while looking out for the people who are first generation citizens?

 

[The Rabbi]

While the quest to end labels is quixotic, it is illustrative of an interesting point. The so-called conservatives here seem to be in favor of draconian measures they would oppose if it were aimed at US citizens.
I have to remind people that "free movement of labor and capital" are the original conservative (that is, what used to be called liberal) ideas.
People come here by and large to work. We need to make that easier for them. The come to work because there are jobs. As pointed out, illegal immigration is down severely becayse the jobs arent here. If you really wanted to end illegal immigration, make sure the economy sucked shit and no one would want to come here.
Get gov't off the backs of business. Let employers and employees negotiate their own terms. Give people a way to work here legally that is easy and inexpensive, and shoot anyone crossing the border otherwise because they are obviously criminals. That is the conservative path.

 

[RKMBrown]

No one has yet addressed the citizens born here who want their patents to stay here that entered the country illegally. Isn't there a way to fix this while looking out for the people who are first generation citizens?

Sure, declare that the kids born here to parents that are not here legally are not American Citizens. The path to citizenship should not be to get here illegally to set up an anchor baby farm.

 

[Contumacious]

I read all kinds of posts on this forum and the labels that everyone constantly places on each other only seem to hold back debates. I propose we go at least one thread without throwing out liberal, conservative, democrat, or republican. Independent and any other generic political term should not be used either. Instead let's just simply talk about our own ideas free from any anchor or politicians point of view.

So here: United States domestic policy on immigration. How do we fix it and help the families who are calling for reform without the projected strains this will place on the economy?

Let's see what Founding Father and 3rd US President had to say about it:

4. Resolved that ALIEN-friends are under the jurisdiction and protection[7] of the laws of the state wherein they are; that no power over them has been delegated to the US. nor prohibited to the individual states distinct from their power over citizens: and it being true as a general principle, and one of the Amendments to the constitution having also declared, that ‘the powers not delegated to the US. by the constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people,’ the act of the Congress of the US. passed on the day of July 1798. intituled ‘an Act concerning Aliens’ which assumes powers over Alien-friends not delegated by the constitution is not law, but is altogether void & of no force.[8]

Thomas Jefferson

I hereby adopt Prez Jefferson's position

.

 

[deltex1]

While the quest to end labels is quixotic, it is illustrative of an interesting point. The so-called conservatives here seem to be in favor of draconian measures they would oppose if it were aimed at US citizens.
I have to remind people that "free movement of labor and capital" are the original conservative (that is, what used to be called liberal) ideas.
People come here by and large to work. We need to make that easier for them. The come to work because there are jobs. As pointed out, illegal immigration is down severely becayse the jobs arent here. If you really wanted to end illegal immigration, make sure the economy sucked shit and no one would want to come here.
Get gov't off the backs of business. Let employers and employees negotiate their own terms. Give people a way to work here legally that is easy and inexpensive, and shoot anyone crossing the border otherwise because they are obviously criminals. That is the conservative path.

Working here is one thing...coming to suck off my teat is another.

 

[Contumacious]

Working here is one thing...coming to suck off my teat is another.

Prior to 1965 we had open borders with Mexico and Canada. Those folks would come here make a few bucks and go back home. Never a problem.

The problem was LBJ's welfare state part deux.

.

 

[Unkotare]

I read all kinds of posts on this forum and the labels that everyone constantly places on each other only seem to hold back debates. I propose we go at least one thread without throwing out liberal, conservative, democrat, or republican. Independent and any other generic political term should not be used either. Instead let's just simply talk about our own ideas free from any anchor or politicians point of view.

So here: United States domestic policy on immigration. How do we fix it and help the families who are calling for reform without the projected strains this will place on the economy?

Labels serve a purpose. Problems only arise when they are misapplied, misunderstood, or misused.

 

[RKMBrown]

I read all kinds of posts on this forum and the labels that everyone constantly places on each other only seem to hold back debates. I propose we go at least one thread without throwing out liberal, conservative, democrat, or republican. Independent and any other generic political term should not be used either. Instead let's just simply talk about our own ideas free from any anchor or politicians point of view.

So here: United States domestic policy on immigration. How do we fix it and help the families who are calling for reform without the projected strains this will place on the economy?

Let's see what Founding Father and 3rd US President had to say about it:

4. Resolved that ALIEN-friends are under the jurisdiction and protection[7] of the laws of the state wherein they are; that no power over them has been delegated to the US. nor prohibited to the individual states distinct from their power over citizens: and it being true as a general principle, and one of the Amendments to the constitution having also declared, that ‘the powers not delegated to the US. by the constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people,’ the act of the Congress of the US. passed on the day of July 1798. intituled ‘an Act concerning Aliens’ which assumes powers over Alien-friends not delegated by the constitution is not law, but is altogether void & of no force.[8]

Thomas Jefferson

I hereby adopt Prez Jefferson's position

.

You'll note he is saying the states should regulate citizenship, not the federal government. Of course this before the civil war amendments destroyed the republic.

 

[Contumacious]

I read all kinds of posts on this forum and the labels that everyone constantly places on each other only seem to hold back debates. I propose we go at least one thread without throwing out liberal, conservative, democrat, or republican. Independent and any other generic political term should not be used either. Instead let's just simply talk about our own ideas free from any anchor or politicians point of view.

So here: United States domestic policy on immigration. How do we fix it and help the families who are calling for reform without the projected strains this will place on the economy?

Let's see what Founding Father and 3rd US President had to say about it:

4. Resolved that ALIEN-friends are under the jurisdiction and protection[7] of the laws of the state wherein they are; that no power over them has been delegated to the US. nor prohibited to the individual states distinct from their power over citizens: and it being true as a general principle, and one of the Amendments to the constitution having also declared, that ‘the powers not delegated to the US. by the constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people,’ the act of the Congress of the US. passed on the day of July 1798. intituled ‘an Act concerning Aliens’ which assumes powers over Alien-friends not delegated by the constitution is not law, but is altogether void & of no force.[8]

Thomas Jefferson

I hereby adopt Prez Jefferson's position

.

You'll note he is saying the states should regulate citizenship, not the federal government. Of course this before the civil war amendments destroyed the republic.

The States NEVER gave up the right to control immigration within their borders. A matter recognized by SCOTUS in 1892.



MR. CHIEF JUSTICE FULLER, after stating the facts in the foregoing language, delivered the opinion of the Court.


" previous to the adoption of the Constitution of the United States, every state had the undoubted right to confer on whomsoever it pleased the character of citizen, and to endow him with all its rights. But this character, of course, was confined to the boundaries of the state, and gave him no rights or privileges in other states beyond those secured to him by the laws of nations and the comity of states. Nor have the several states surrendered the power of conferring these rights and privileges by adopting the Constitution of the United States. Each state may still confer them upon an alien, or anyone it thinks proper, or upon any class or description of persons; yet he would not be a citizen in the sense in

Page 143 U. S. 160