Zone1 Even if you "endure to the end" you are not "saved"... until God says so (Purgatory)

[nomadic5]

Even if you "endure to the end" you are not "saved"... until God says so

Jesus said He who endures to the end will be saved

will be

not IS

Matthew 24:13-14​

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Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition​

​

​

13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.



Will be saved is future tense... means you will be saved AFTER something or other happens, at some future time.

This is further scriptural evidence for Purgatory, even though I know how obstinate Protesters are and they will argue argue argue...

whatever...

It's right there for all to see. Protesters don't see Catholicism in the Word because they have not been trained to understand the Word... Most only take their protesting pastor's word for what it means..

 

[Meister]

The Rapture?

 

[MarathonMike]

Why does one go to Purgatory instead of Hell?

 

[nomadic5]

Why does one go to Purgatory instead of Hell?

because one is following Christ but is not purified sufficiently for Heaven where, as Revelation says "no unclean thing will enter"

Humans are so messed up (filthy) from sin, they have to, as St Paul said,

undergo many hardships in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven

If one has not undergone sufficient "hardships" (purification) at the time of his/her death

well, God is merciful.. (yet He also has to protect Heaven from sin...)

 

[nomadic5]

The Rapture?

I am not an expert on the teaching of the Rapture, but I do know that that teaching came along LONG after the Church began, like maybe in the 18th century or later

 

[MarathonMike]

because one is following Christ but is not purified sufficiently for Heaven where, as Revelation says "no unclean thing will enter"

Humans are so messed up (filthy) from sin, they have to, as St Paul said,

undergo many hardships in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven

If one has not undergone sufficient "hardships" (purification) at the time of his/her death

well, God is merciful.. (yet He also has to protect Heaven from sin...)

Sorry that makes no sense to me at all.

 

[Meister]

I am not an expert on the teaching of the Rapture, but I do know that that teaching came along LONG after the Church began, like maybe in the 18th century or later

I believe you to be wrong.....'rapture' may have appeared later than the Bible, but, it was a word describing an event
that appears in the Bible.

The Greek word from this term “rapture” is derived appears in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, translated “caught up.” The Latin translation of this verse used the word rapturo. The Greek word it translates is harpazo, which means to snatch or take away. Elsewhere it is used to describe how the Spirit caught up Philip near Gaza and brought him to Caesarea (Acts 8:39) and to describe Paul’s experience of being caught up into the third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2-4). Thus there can be no doubt that the word is used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 to indicate the actual removal of people from earth to heaven.

Where did the term 'rapture' come from? | Bible.org

Regarding the term rapture and its use in theology the following should answer your questions. It is taken from Ryrie’s Basic Theology, Electronic Media from Parsons Technology. Our modern understanding of rapture appears to have little or no connection with the eschatological event. However...

bible.org

 

[Meriweather]

Why does one go to Purgatory instead of Hell?

It is said that sin cannot exist in the presence of God.
Purgatory is purification for those who truly want to be in the presence of God.
Hell is for those who reject God. Catholics say that God sends no one to hell. People choose hell.

 

[Meriweather]

there can be no doubt that the word is used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 to indicate the actual removal of people from earth to heaven.

Poetry, metaphor.

For those of us who see poetry and metaphor being employed, we see Paul painting a picture that words find hard to describe. For Christians, both our lives and our deaths in Christ as it is a bond that cannot be broken. We are caught up in Christ--not raised into the air.

 

[MarathonMike]

It is said that sin cannot exist in the presence of God.
Purgatory is purification for those who truly want to be in the presence of God.
Hell is for those who reject God. Catholics say that God sends no one to hell. People choose hell.

So devout Christians ALL have to spend time in Purgatory? No one goes straight to Heaven?

 

[Meriweather]

So devout Christians ALL have to spend time in Purgatory? No one goes straight to Heaven?

I don't know. I reference the story of Lazarus and the poor man. The poor man made it to Abraham's bosom where he was comforted. Lazarus thirsted.

I believe it is in Luke Jesus was teaching us to settle with our opponent and not be obstinate. If we remain obstinate with our fellowman it appears we are locked up until we pay the last penny owed our opponent.

Off the top of my head, these are the two I remember as possible references to purgatory. The theme that seems to follow all of them is we should love and honor our fellow man.

 

[MarathonMike]

I don't know. I reference the story of Lazarus and the poor man. The poor man made it to Abraham's bosom where he was comforted. Lazarus thirsted.

I believe it is in Luke Jesus was teaching us to settle with our opponent and not be obstinate. If we remain obstinate with our fellowman it appears we are locked up until we pay the last penny owed our opponent.

Off the top of my head, these are the two I remember as possible references to purgatory. The theme that seems to follow all of them is we should love and honor our fellow man.

So is if fair to say that Purgatory is not "settled science" in terms of Christianity's view of the AfterLife?

 

[Meriweather]

So is if fair to say that Purgatory is not "settled science" in terms of Christianity's view of the AfterLife?

Some non-Catholic Christian denomination follow the premise, "Once saved, always saved" and hold no belief in purgatory. Here are reasons Orthodox and Catholic faiths recognize the doctrine of Purgatory (meaning make pure).

Old Testament Scripture notes prayer of atonement for the dead. Job's sacrifice. Job's sons were also purified through their father's sacrifice.

Something Jesus said is also worth noting. He said blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not forgiven--either in this age, or in the age to come. It appears some sins are forgiven in the afterlife.

 

[MarathonMike]

Some non-Catholic Christian denomination follow the premise, "Once saved, always saved" and hold no belief in purgatory. Here are reasons Orthodox and Catholic faiths recognize the doctrine of Purgatory (meaning make pure).

Old Testament Scripture notes prayer of atonement for the dead. Job's sacrifice. Job's sons were also purified through their father's sacrifice.

Something Jesus said is also worth noting. He said blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not forgiven--either in this age, or in the age to come. It appears some sins are forgiven in the afterlife.

Sounds like a bunch of rules and exceptions made up by humans to me. I never mean to offend Christians, I have lots of Christians in my extended family. There are just too many inconsistencies for me.

 

[Meriweather]

Sounds like a bunch of rules and exceptions made up by humans to me. I never mean to offend Christians, I have lots of Christians in my extended family. There are just too many inconsistencies for me.

While humans are known for setting forth rules, the one thing that surpasses that is that humans look for answers. In this case:

• What happens to good people after death?
• What happens to evil people after death?
• What happens to the majority of us who are not evil, but not terribly good either?

Christians look to see if--and how--these questions are addressed in the Bible. No one is making rules, rather they are pointing to possible answers according to scripture.

The Catholic Church points to some accounts in the Old Testament, and of course, anything Jesus said that touched on the subject. Some non-Catholic Christians respond that while all that may be true, we believe "Once Saved Always Saved" provides the latest, surest answer.

These answers are presented to those who have questions. It tells us the conclusions of those who studied the issue. It is up to each individual to decide whether they find the conclusions sound, whether they want to read what other studies show, or whether they want to do their own study.

 

[MarathonMike]

While humans are known for setting forth rules, the one thing that surpasses that is that humans look for answers. In this case:

• What happens to good people after death?
• What happens to evil people after death?
• What happens to the majority of us who are not evil, but not terribly good either?

Christians look to see if--and how--these questions are addressed in the Bible. No one is making rules, rather they are pointing to possible answers according to scripture.

The Catholic Church points to some accounts in the Old Testament, and of course, anything Jesus said that touched on the subject. Some non-Catholic Christians respond that while all that may be true, we believe "Once Saved Always Saved" provides the latest, surest answer.

These answers are presented to those who have questions. It tells us the conclusions of those who studied the issue. It is up to each individual to decide whether they find the conclusions sound, whether they want to read what other studies show, or whether they want to do their own study.

I haven't read the whole Bible but I read enough of it to know it is highly open to interpretation. So are people searching for the "true" answer or are they searching for that which they can interpret the way they want? There are even different versions of the Bible so which one is correct?

 

[Meriweather]

I haven't read the whole Bible but I read enough of it to know it is highly open to interpretation. So are people searching for the "true" answer or are they searching for that which they can interpret the way they want? There are even different versions of the Bible so which one is correct?

Get as close to the original language as possible. Learn about the culture and the times. What was the original author's message/intent for his original audience? This means keeping in mind people then had an entirely different history than we have today. Reading ancient commentaries helps in this regard.

Next, what is the modern interpreter's intent for his audience today?

Finally, my own recommendation is to be open to as many interpretation as possible, or at least practical. Our minds are capable of keeping a number of possibilities in mind, even as we do generally select one possibility we feel is most likely.

 

[Lastamender]

It is all very interesting but we will all find out. Except Arnold.

 

[nomadic5]

I believe you to be wrong.....'rapture' may have appeared later than the Bible, but, it was a word describing an event
that appears in the Bible.

The Greek word from this term “rapture” is derived appears in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, translated “caught up.” The Latin translation of this verse used the word rapturo. The Greek word it translates is harpazo, which means to snatch or take away. Elsewhere it is used to describe how the Spirit caught up Philip near Gaza and brought him to Caesarea (Acts 8:39) and to describe Paul’s experience of being caught up into the third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2-4). Thus there can be no doubt that the word is used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 to indicate the actual removal of people from earth to heaven.

Where did the term 'rapture' come from? | Bible.org

Regarding the term rapture and its use in theology the following should answer your questions. It is taken from Ryrie’s Basic Theology, Electronic Media from Parsons Technology. Our modern understanding of rapture appears to have little or no connection with the eschatological event. However...

bible.org

I can't rspond as I do not know (as the Church Fathers did) Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek or Latin

I just know what I know... that the true Church is (the real) Catholic one (not the Vatican which appears to be sold out to Satan)

 

[nomadic5]

Sounds like a bunch of rules and exceptions made up by humans to me. I never mean to offend Christians, I have lots of Christians in my extended family. There are just too many inconsistencies for me.

which is what happens when you have thousands of HUMANS inventing "truth" as they go along.. from Luther to Zwingli to the modern day protesters Joel Olsteen et al

THAT is why Jesus founded (one reason He founded) ONE Church

He (unlike mere humans) wanted UNITY

You can blame Protestants for destroying unity when they first broke from the Original (Catholic) Church

Luther started it
Zwingli and others disagreed with Luther, started their own religions

Now we have something like 65,000 different denominations...

but still only ONE Church...