Zone1 Explaining Jesus to a Jew

[rosends]

According to you, I'm weak-minded because I was influenced by Jewish anti-missionary arguments,

among other reasons

hence those arguments must really suck huh? Only weak-minded people would believe a Jewish rabbi's arguments against Christianity.

Since those aren't their arguments and you aren't their target, the fact that you were influence does speak to your weakness, yes.

You're the one who believes in talking snakes

So you deny miracles ever happened, right? No creation ex nihilo, no Ark saving Noah, no splitting of the Reed Sea, no birth of a man god from a woman who hadn't been with a man. OK.

and a genocidal "god" who orders you to burn your daughter alive if she has premarital sex. Talk about "weak-minded" and irrational.

All this means is that you don't know Judaism. That's no surprise.

 

[Red Front]

among other reasons

Since those aren't their arguments and you aren't their target, the fact that you were influence does speak to your weakness, yes.

So you deny miracles ever happened, right? No creation ex nihilo, no Ark saving Noah, no splitting of the Reed Sea, no birth of a man god from a woman who hadn't been with a man. OK.

All this means is that you don't know Judaism. That's no surprise.

among other reasons
Since those aren't their arguments and you aren't their target, the fact that you were influence does speak to your weakness, yes.

Now you're speaking gibberish. Anti-missionary arguments attack Christianity, and whether they're presented for the purpose of convincing Jewish Christians or Gentile Christians is irrelevant. If the media-content is publicly broadcasted to Jewish Christians or potential Jewish converts to Christianity, it will reach everyone, including the Gentile Christians. Are you suggesting that the Jewish anti-missionary arguments are so weak, that one has to be a dolt to believe them?

More you dishonestly claim that Rabbi Singer's efforts are strictly for Jews, which is simply not true. He broadcasts his programs through a Gentile host who is a so-called "Noachide", who leads an organization and effort designed to convert Christians to the "seven laws of Noah". He promotes Rabbi Tovia Singer and many Gentiles are now watching his videos and he knows that.

So again, like always, you're a liar.


So you deny miracles ever happened, right?

There are no so-called miracles in the weak-minded sense you assert.

No creation ex nihilo, no Ark saving Noah, no splitting of the Reed Sea, no birth of a man god from a woman who hadn't been with a man. OK.

Only weak-minded people like you read such stories literally.


All this means is that you don't know Judaism. That's no surprise.

Copout response, like always.

 

[rosends]

Now you're speaking gibberish. Anti-missionary arguments attack Christianity,

No, they attack the arguments Christian missionaries use to try and get Jews to abandon Judaism.

and whether they're presented for the purpose of convincing Jewish Christians or Gentile Christians is irrelevant.

Of course it is relevant. It is the whole point.

If the media-content is publicly broadcasted to Jewish Christians or potential Jewish converts to Christianity, it will reach everyone, including the Gentile Christians. Are you suggesting that the Jewish anti-missionary arguments are so weak, that one has to be a dolt to believe them?

No, but they are designed specifically to counter arguments to pull Jews away from Judaism. If by countering them an avowed Christian loses his faith then either Christianity is incredibly weak, or the person is. Which is it? I assumed it was you but if you would rather say that the religion can't stand up to the arguments, then that's fine also. I stand corrected.

More you dishonestly claim that Rabbi Singer's efforts are strictly for Jews, which is simply not true. He broadcasts his programs through a Gentile host who is a so-called "Noachide", who leads an organization and effort designed to convert Christians to the "seven laws of Noah". He promotes Rabbi Tovia Singer and many Gentiles are now watching his videos and he knows that.

So the host tries to get people to be Noachides. OK. I hope you realize that according to some very important sages in Judaism, one can be a Christian and a Noachide at the same time, so the host wouldn't be trying to "convert" Christians.

So again, like always, you're a liar.

So again, you are wrong.

There are no so-called miracles in the weak-minded sense you assert.

So you DO deny miracles. Got it.

Only weak-minded people like you read such stories literally.

So you deny any divinity of Jesus (and any supposed miracles he performed). That's fine.

Copout response, like always.

more ignorance from you. As expected.

 

[Red Front]

No, they attack the arguments Christian missionaries use to try and get Jews to abandon Judaism.

Of course it is relevant. It is the whole point.

No, but they are designed specifically to counter arguments to pull Jews away from Judaism. If by countering them an avowed Christian loses his faith then either Christianity is incredibly weak, or the person is. Which is it? I assumed it was you but if you would rather say that the religion can't stand up to the arguments, then that's fine also. I stand corrected.

So the host tries to get people to be Noachides. OK. I hope you realize that according to some very important sages in Judaism, one can be a Christian and a Noachide at the same time, so the host wouldn't be trying to "convert" Christians.

So again, you are wrong.

So you DO deny miracles. Got it.

So you deny any divinity of Jesus (and any supposed miracles he performed). That's fine.

more ignorance from you. As expected.

No, they attack the arguments Christian missionaries use to try and get Jews to abandon Judaism.

Whether Tovia Singer is focused on Jews or not is irrelevant, anyone can be influenced and impressed with his arguments contra-Christianity, without being weak-minded. Perfect knowledge in a particular topic, area of study, or discipline, isn't required to be thoughtful and mature. To suggest otherwise is silly and disingenuous, if not "weak-minded".

Jewish counter-missionaries, attack the central tenets of Christianity, and in the case of Tovia Singer, his organization is no longer just focused on Jewish Christians or stopping Jews from converting to Christianity. He works closely with Gentiles who are dedicated to attacking Christianity, to try and get Christians to abandon Christianity. As I mentioned in my last post, the person who hosts many of his YouTube videos is a Noachide, whose mission is to debunk Christianity.

Of course it is relevant. It is the whole point.

Your point is flawed and "weak-minded". Poorly thought-out.

No, but they are designed specifically to counter arguments to pull Jews away from Judaism. If by countering them an avowed Christian loses his faith then either Christianity is incredibly weak, or the person is. Which is it?

Not necessarily. You have a very shallow perspective on this issue.

I assumed it was you but if you would rather say that the religion can't stand up to the arguments, then that's fine also. I stand corrected.

More false assumptions.

So the host tries to get people to be Noachides. OK. I hope you realize that according to some very important sages in Judaism, one can be a Christian and a Noachide at the same time, so the host wouldn't be trying to "convert" Christians.


According to some, but unfortunately, it seems the rabbi's Gentile, Noachide host didn't get the memo. He's always trying to get people out of Christianity and Tovia Singer is part of the team. A few months ago he had Robert Price on his program, putting forth atheistic arguments against the NT, completely ignoring the fact that Price has authored a couple of books about how the Hebrew Bible is also a "fairytale" and Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses, didn't exist. They're fictional characters, according to Price. It's odd that he would ally himself with such people to advance his anti-Christian agenda. He reduces Christianity to an "idolatrous Edomite religion" embodying the spirit of Rome.


So again, you are wrong.

Stop lying.


So you DO deny miracles. Got it.

I deny your definition of what miracles are, but I still recognize God's influence and even His intervention in the regular natural order.

So you deny any divinity of Jesus (and any supposed miracles he performed). That's fine.

I deny the traditional understanding of Christ's divinity, yes. I don't deny miracles, but what is miraculous isn't necessarily "supernatural". I don't believe there is such a dichotomy between natural and "super-natural". It's all-natural and within the laws of physics.

more ignorance from you. As expected.

How so?

 

[BreezeWood]

It just seems that he is operating in a Pharisaic mode, even though he is a dissenting voice within that mode.

jesus intended from the beginning to repudiate judaism and was never a jew himself - their goal to begin anew.

Jesus healed on the Sabbath in order to reveal the hypocrisy of the Pharisees' religion. In three passages where Jesus’ healing led to a confrontation, Jesus references how the Jews “worked” on the Sabbath by taking care of their animals, and that work was sanctioned by the Pharisees.

"within that mode" ... rosends hasn't a clue.

a heavenly sabbath is a type of completion - nothing to do with work - the "mode" jesus new and taught.

keep their garden holy - is what they expressed ...

 

[BreezeWood]

no one in their right mind would believe jesus was a fundamentalist jew, everything they taught was an unraveling of judaism and their false pretenses.

read it again ----you are very confused

that jesus was a fundamentalist jew ... 91 needs a vacation - or visitation should be allowed afterall.

 

[BreezeWood]

what did Jesus teach that was the "unraveling of Judaism"? Jesus did not declare a
new church---

everything from the beginning was a critique of the prevailing religious order - so much so the romans new nothing about them ...

the new church you allude to was interrupted by their crucifixion ... they would have ended judaism, hereditary idolatry, apartheid heaven the draconian 10 commandments and others so numerous a decade would have been required - were they not murdered.

"the lost sheep"

 

[Woodznutz]

Jesus claimed that he wanted to be KING? you have a citation?

Jesus never 'claimed' that he 'wanted' to be king.

 

[Woodznutz]

Walking Back the Literal Roads

How about the narrative which claims that the sun orbits the earth, or the genealogies that mathematically lead back to the "first human" being born only a few millennia before Christ?

What narrative makes that claim about the sun?

Adam was the first human to have a relationship with his creator.

 

[Woodznutz]

The point is that Jesus wasn't a member of the sect of the Pharisees.

I do electrical work, but that doesn't make me an electrician. Being a due paying member of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers makes me one.

Dues paying.

 

[Red Front]

​

 

[theHawk]

Another big problem for the Christ deniers is the prophet Daniel.

The Angel Gabriel came to him to give him a very important message.

Now the prophet Daniel lived during the Babylonian exile. He was given a message about the future second temple, the anointed one, Holy of Holies, a covenant will be made, and the destruction of the city and temple after the anointed one is cut down.


Daniel Chapter 9
24 “Seventy weeks are decreed
for your people and your holy city:
for bringing an end to transgression,
for putting an end to sin,
for expiating iniquity,
for introducing everlasting righteousness,
for ratifying vision and prophecy,
and for anointing the Holy of Holies.
25 “Know therefore, and understand this:
From the time that the message was sent:
‘Return and rebuild Jerusalem,’
until the coming of an anointed prince,
there shall be seven weeks.
During sixty-two weeks
it shall be rebuilt and restored
with streets and trenches
in a troubled time.
26 “After the sixty-two weeks
an anointed one will be cut off
and have nothing.
And the troops of a leader who is to come
will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
Then the end will come like a torrent,
and until the end there will be war,
the devastation that has been decreed.
27 “During the space of one week
he will make a firm covenant with many people,
and for the space of half a week
he will put a stop to sacrifice and oblation.
And on the temple wing
will be the terrible abomination
until the end that has been decreed
is poured out upon the desolate city.”

.

So the anointed one, who will make a new covenant, was foretold will be cut down before the destruction of the second temple.


Let’s hear the spin….

 

[irosie91]

that jesus was a fundamentalist jew ... 91 needs a vacation - or visitation should be allowed afterall.

Jesus was a pharisee jew-----if he did not want to be a jew---why did he not say so----
was "GOD INCARNATE AFRAID" ???

 

[norwegen]

You're a preterist? Are you fully spiritualizing Christian eschatology?

Preterists don't spiritualize Christian eschatology. They don't believe in Christian eschatology.

 

[rosends]

Perfect knowledge in a particular topic, area of study, or discipline, isn't required to be thoughtful and mature.

So are you saying that his arguments against missionaries are thoughtful and mature? Or are you saying that your response to his arguments, that is, being influenced by them, was thoughtful and mature? I would suggest the former as your remarks on this thread show neither of those attributes.

Jewish counter-missionaries, attack the central tenets of Christianity, and in the case of Tovia Singer, his organization is no longer just focused on Jewish Christians or stopping Jews from converting to Christianity. He works closely with Gentiles who are dedicated to attacking Christianity, to try and get Christians to abandon Christianity. As I mentioned in my last post, the person who hosts many of his YouTube videos is a Noachide, whose mission is to debunk Christianity.

You have now created 2 problems -- the first is that your anger should be focused on non-Jews because, by your own admission, it is the non-Jew's mission to debunk Christianity. Instead, you focus on Singer, whose mission is to stop missionaries who try to get Jews to abandon Judaism. The second is that you ignored the fact that I presented about Jewish law's opinion about being a Noachide and a Christian.

Your point is flawed and "weak-minded". Poorly thought-out.

A weak minded person like you would say that, yes.

Not necessarily. You have a very shallow perspective on this issue.

and you didn't answer the question.

According to some, but unfortunately, it seems the rabbi's Gentile, Noachide host didn't get the memo. He's always trying to get people out of Christianity and Tovia Singer is part of the team. A few months ago he had Robert Price on his program, putting forth atheistic arguments against the NT, completely ignoring the fact that Price has authored a couple of books about how the Hebrew Bible is also a "fairytale" and Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses, didn't exist. They're fictional characters, according to Price. It's odd that he would ally himself with such people to advance his anti-Christian agenda. He reduces Christianity to an "idolatrous Edomite religion" embodying the spirit of Rome.

So rail against him. He's not an anti-missionary. If he didn't get the memo about an element of Jewish law, then that's ok, because he isn't Jewish.

I deny your definition of what miracles are, but I still recognize God's influence and even His intervention in the regular natural order.

That's what a miracle is, So you both deny and embrace the same thing. Well done.

I deny the traditional understanding of Christ's divinity, yes. I don't deny miracles, but what is miraculous isn't necessarily "supernatural".

and it isn't necessarily non-supernatural. So you just deny the ones you don't like?

How so?

because, again, you show your lack of knowledge about Judaism, and the blinders of hate that you are wearing.

 

[hobelim]

Meet the Ancient Art Bell Coast to Coast Show

There is logical evidence refuting the whole Bible. If the miracles had actually occurred, then all those who witnessed them would have killed the Romans who were trying to crucify Jesus. Since those who would be killed doing that would believe they'd go directly to heaven if they had actually witnessed any miracles But even those who are claimed to have seen the most miracles, the Apostles, deserted him. And Judas actually betrayed him. Those reactions prove there were no miracles. So all this is a primitive myth and about as respectable as the National Enquirer.

One thing that you seem to not include in your speculations is that the "miracles", originally called "signs" that Jesus was the messiah are metaphorical accounts of actual events. Not displays of supernatural power. When Jesus healed the blind man first he wrote something on the ground, made a past of mud and spit and covered his eyes with that, and then put his hand over the mans eyes and asked him what he saw. First the man said he saw trees walking around and then when Jesus told the man to take a harder look the blind man said that he saw men. How could the blind man see anything with mud and spit in his eyes? It logically follows then that this was a healing of perception not sight, because in scripture men are often represented by trees as in Eden where there were many trees with fruit (of the mind) that is pleasing to the eye and good to eat.

He was teaching the man how to understand the metaphors in scripture that many are still blind to

In the gospel of John there are exactly seven 'miracles'. In revelation there are exactly seven seals on a scroll that prevent everyone from seeing what is written inside. Every single miracle of Jesus that defies reality is like a big X on a treasure map marking the exact place where something of great value was buried and hidden. If you look and look and keep on looking you will find it.

The kingdom of Heaven is like hidden treasure lying buried in a field. The man who found it (Jesus H. Christ) buried it again."

Can you dig it?

 

[BreezeWood]

Jesus was a pharisee jew-----if he did not want to be a jew---why did he not say so----
was "GOD INCARNATE AFRAID" ???

they were not a fundamentalist jew - a jew at all - they taught liberation theology, self determination - - not hereditary idolatry, apartheid heaven - draconian false 10 comandments ...

they were murdered by the jews because jesus was not afraid of them - as were all the others around him ... than mary magdalen - they were the heavenly examples of their time - a&e. truth be told.

the crucifixion forever removed judaism as a heavenly religion. till those criminals are brought to justice - rosend - ir91.

 

[hobelim]

Sorcery? I'm not sure what you are talking about.

Let me put it this way. Sorcery, the magical arts, are what is now known as mind control, brainwashing. You have been indoctrinated by rote, just like any hard core Catholic, and terrified to consider any rational point made that refutes this indoctrination. Its as obvious as a white bolder in the middle of a plowed field. You cling to traditions because the implications that your way to comply with the Divine commands is not the right way means it has always been wrong and you just don't have the stones to bear that and so you accuse me of anger or not understanding or antisemitism, whatever, even though my assertion that the subject of kosher law is about teaching, whether clean or unclean, not food, actually reveals sublime wisdom worthy of a benevolent God

You are just embarrassed because it is so obvious but you shouldn't be. You have done the best you can. But now, because I have shown you a better way, you can do better. So just go and do it.

 

[Red Front]

So are you saying that his arguments against missionaries are thoughtful and mature? Or are you saying that your response to his arguments, that is, being influenced by them, was thoughtful and mature? I would suggest the former as your remarks on this thread show neither of those attributes.

You have now created 2 problems -- the first is that your anger should be focused on non-Jews because, by your own admission, it is the non-Jew's mission to debunk Christianity. Instead, you focus on Singer, whose mission is to stop missionaries who try to get Jews to abandon Judaism. The second is that you ignored the fact that I presented about Jewish law's opinion about being a Noachide and a Christian.

A weak minded person like you would say that, yes.

and you didn't answer the question.

So rail against him. He's not an anti-missionary. If he didn't get the memo about an element of Jewish law, then that's ok, because he isn't Jewish.

That's what a miracle is, So you both deny and embrace the same thing. Well done.

and it isn't necessarily non-supernatural. So you just deny the ones you don't like?

because, again, you show your lack of knowledge about Judaism, and the blinders of hate that you are wearing.

So are you saying that his arguments against missionaries are thoughtful and mature?

A person can be deceived, due to a lack of knowledge in a specific area of the issue or topic, whatever that might be. At the time, I wasn't familiar with Jewish arguments against Christianity as I am now, hence I was caught off guard and it did affect my faith. I lost it and became an atheist. Through a long process of study and reflection, I returned to Christianity. Calling me "weak-minded" for being influenced by Jewish anti-missionary arguments back in the late 1990s, is misinformed and unnecessary. If a Christian is influenced by Jewish anti-missionary arguments that implies they're "weak-minded"? That's a weak-minded, stupid assumption.

Or are you saying that your response to his arguments, that is, being influenced by them, was thoughtful and mature?

At the time, based on what I knew and had experienced, anyone who values the truth, wouldn't have continued being a Christian or even a theist. My decision to be consistent with my values with respect to the importance of truth as it relates to my faith, was the thoughtful and mature thing to do, at the time.

I would suggest the former as your remarks on this thread show neither of those attributes.

You're entitled to your opinion. Your ad hominem attacks don't strengthen your case against Christianity.

You have now created 2 problems -- the first is that your anger should be focused on non-Jews because, by your own admission, it is the non-Jew's mission to debunk Christianity. Instead, you focus on Singer, whose mission is to stop missionaries who try to get Jews to abandon Judaism. The second is that you ignored the fact that I presented about Jewish law's opinion about being a Noachide and a Christian.

It doesn't matter what his intentions supposedly are, what he does in public, broadcasting his anti-Christian rhetoric, affects everyone, not just the people that he is exclusively targeting, supposedly according to you.

A weak minded person like you would say that, yes.

What you call "weak-minded" is actually being sincerely committed to the truth, whatever that might be.

More, at least I don't defend the sucking of baby penises as you do:

​

...and make provision within Jewish law for my wife to wear hair (a wig), to cover her hair in public, when the purpose of covering her hair is to cover her beauty.

​

They cover the beauty of their natural hair with hair that is sexier, and more attractive, than their natural hair, perhaps increasing the attention they receive from men. This is a good example of rabbinic Judaism's fuzzy logic and lame-braininess.

and you didn't answer the question.

I did, you just didn't like the answer.

So rail against him. He's not an anti-missionary. If he didn't get the memo about an element of Jewish law, then that's ok, because he isn't Jewish.

The head anti-missionary in the world supports Him and has essentially made him his partner in His work.

That's what a miracle is, So you both deny and embrace the same thing. Well done.

For me, a so-called "miracle" is simply a form of technology, that appears to us human apes as a violation of the laws of physics or something "metaphysical". I don't deny science as you do. My religion is in line with reality, whereas yours interprets the events described in the Hebrew Bible, as being 100% historical and literal. Do you actually believe the world is only 6000 years old and the universe went helter-skelter when a caveman and his wife ate from the wrong fruit tree?


and it isn't necessarily non-supernatural. So you just deny the ones you don't like?

My faith is reasonable, unlike yours. We recognize that which is self-evident, hence if the Bible is true and there are verses that clearly contradict reality, we interpret it metaphorically, unless there's a reason not to.

because, again, you show your lack of knowledge about Judaism, and the blinders of hate that you are wearing.


Be specific. In what sense or on what issue do I lack knowledge and why do you assume my hate is irrational and blinds me? What proof do you have that hate by default renders one's argument incorrect? Present your evidence.

 

[rosends]

Let me put it this way. Sorcery, the magical arts, are what is now known as mind control, brainwashing. You have been indoctrinated by rote, just like any hard core Catholic, and terrified to consider any rational point made that refutes this indoctrination. Its as obvious as a white bolder in the middle of a plowed field. You cling to traditions because the implications that your way to comply with the divine commands is not the right way means it has always been wrong and you just don't have the stones to bear that and so you accuse me of anger or not understanding or antisemitism, whatever, even though my assertion that the subject of kosher law is about teaching, whether clean or unclean, not food, actually reveals sublime wisdom worthy of a benevolent God

You are just embarrassed because it is so obvious but you shouldn't be. You have done the best you can. But now, because I have shown you a better way, you can do better. So just go and do it.

So I have been brainwashed and impacted by sorcery but you know better?

I'll pass on your offer. I'm not embarrassed, just amused.