F35 - superfighter or lame duck?

[DrainBamage]

USAF F-35s arriving at Red Flag 17-1. Funny is how many times I've seen retards claim F-35 can't fly in the rain since it will ruin their stealth coating.

 

[westwall]

and by providing A-10 related material to demonstrate what a poor choice the F-35 is for the CAS role,

It is pretty funny that you believe posting a youtube video of an A-10 shooting it's cannon proves another plane is a poor choice for the CAS role, it demonstrates an extremely dogmatic and shallow way of thinking.

Eighty percent of CAS missions in Iraq and Afghanistan have been conducted by planes other than the A-10, everything from B-1s to AC-130s to F-16s. Your faulty logic is therefore claiming that all this support from Air Force planes was poor since they don't have the one characteristic (GAU-8) that you are enamored with, despite use of that gun to kill enemies is a very tiny minority weapons deployed across all CAS missions. I disagree with this, I think USAF is doing an outstanding job supporting the ground troops with all these different airplanes in CAS roles. There are scenarios where the A-10 has particular advantages over other platforms, and scenarios where other platforms have advantages over an A-10.

If someone posts a video of a B-1 using a three hour loiter time to monitor the battlefield while dropping 40 JDAMs on enemies does that prove A-10 is a poor choice for CAS since it can't do this?

If someone posts a video of an F-15E arriving from 200 kilometers away in just minutes to put some LGBs on insurgents can we say it proves A-10 is a poor choice for CAS since the A-10 would still be 10 minutes away while our troops are getting killed?

If someone posts a video of an F-16 high overhead dropping cluster munitions on enemy armor in Iraq, because A-10 was pulled from that area due to SAMs shooting the down (yes, this happened) can we say it is superior in CAS role since A-10 isn't even there?

What you are is a fanboy, the epitome of fanboy. You like a certain plane and get all giddy watching videos of it shooting it's gun, and it makes you blindly local to the point where facts and logic go by the wayside.

What I am arguing is that in the CAS role which you claim the F-35 is BETTER than the A-10 at performing, there is ZERO evidence to support your statement. Add to that the fact that if a A-10 is shot up it will likely survive, which the F-35 won't, that even if shot down it is four times (at minimum) cheaper than the F-35 so replacement isn't nearly as big a burden, that if shot down the odds are GREATLY in favor of the pilot surviving, thus they are more willing to hang it out there on a mission, thus increasing their effectiveness.

Your attempts at deflection while amusing are not helping you. Attack the points I made, not me.

In 2014, during Green Flag where the ground forces show up to play their games, the F-16s and the A-10s were chopped to pieces. In Green Flag of 2015, they sent in two F-35s. The bagged the CAS Targets, neutralized the surface to air radar with ZERO losses. How much proof do you need?

Provide links to support your claims please.

GREEN FLAG

F-35 performs CAS role during Green Flag

F-35s played the US Army’s primary CAS providers during Green Flag. And were not shot down in the process F-35s played the US Army’s primary CAS providers during Green Flag. And were not shot down in the process

This is from a simple search on Google. You should try it and actually ask the right questions. Every task they have asked of the F-35A has been positive.

Considering that two of the F35As were tasked with CAS and was successful while the year before, the F-16 and the A-10 was ground to hamburger that tells loads. When there are no manpads in enemies hands ANY AF Fighter or Attack bird can handle it. But introduce manpads and you can't come in low and slow anymore without a suicide pact. Ask the Russians.

OK, the first video merely shows it being there, we already knew that, the 2nd link was more interesting. Here is the relevant section.


"On the other side, several other analysts claim the participation of two test aircraft in the exercise was just a PR stunt, since the aircraft is still quite far from achieving a combat readiness required to really support the troops at war: it can’t use the gun, it is limited to a couple of JDAMs (Joint Direct Attack Munitions) and it is still flawed by a long list of serious issues, including those to the 400K USD HMD (Helmet Mounted Display)."

So, they had an aircraft that was limited to two bombs, and they can make the claim that it was there. OK. There is nothing here that supports your claim that it was a "star performer".

Further research found this little tidbit...




"The planes aren’t using ordnance but are using their sensors to find and target the enemies — based on the sort of capabilities Russia and China boast — and then are sharing data with the older airplanes who kill them.

“We are continuing to expand our integration with other players,” Silveria said. And he was supposed to fly an F-35 with F-22s last Saturday. Also, he said the F-35s will be executing Close Air Support sorties this week to work out tactics, techniques and procedures.

So the JSF isn’t using ordnance but is just used to search ground targets, not totally the same way as the A-10’s and F-16’s are used."
The JSF.. wow it survived Green Flag:)


So, what they actually did was swan about designating targets for the actual CAS aircraft. OK, that's useful. But a whole lot of different aircraft can do that mission. For a hell of a lot less cost.

 

[DrainBamage]

So, they had an aircraft that was limited to two bombs, and they can make the claim that it was there. OK. There is nothing here that supports your claim that it was a "star performer".

I'm not sure how your logic is working here, how exactly does the F-35 currently being limited to carrying two bombs prove it didn't perform well? Pilots and commanders saying it performed well supports the claim it was a star performer, it being limited to two bombs right now doesn't counter that.

So, what they actually did was swan about designating targets for the actual CAS aircraft. OK, that's useful. But a whole lot of different aircraft can do that mission. For a hell of a lot less cost.

No, part of what they were doing was designating for other assets, you're missing the word "also" which implies something in addition to previous statement.

"The planes aren’t using ordnance but are using their sensors to find and target the enemies — based on the sort of capabilities Russia and China boast — and then are sharing data with the older airplanes who kill them. “We are continuing to expand our integration with other players,” Silveria said. And he was supposed to fly an F-35 with F-22s last Saturday. Also, he said the F-35s will be executing Close Air Support sorties this week to work out tactics, techniques and procedures.

 

[DrainBamage]

31st TES F-35s take on Green Flag 15-08

During iteration 15-08, two F-35s took on a primary exercise role as the close air support providers, penetrating a contested and degraded battlespace, awaiting calls for fire from ground commanders below.

 

[westwall]

So, they had an aircraft that was limited to two bombs, and they can make the claim that it was there. OK. There is nothing here that supports your claim that it was a "star performer".

I'm not sure how your logic is working here, how exactly does the F-35 currently being limited to carrying two bombs prove it didn't perform well? Pilots and commanders saying it performed well supports the claim it was a star performer, it being limited to two bombs right now doesn't counter that.

So, what they actually did was swan about designating targets for the actual CAS aircraft. OK, that's useful. But a whole lot of different aircraft can do that mission. For a hell of a lot less cost.

No, part of what they were doing was designating for other assets, you're missing the word "also" which implies something in addition to previous statement.

"The planes aren’t using ordnance but are using their sensors to find and target the enemies — based on the sort of capabilities Russia and China boast — and then are sharing data with the older airplanes who kill them. “We are continuing to expand our integration with other players,” Silveria said. And he was supposed to fly an F-35 with F-22s last Saturday. Also, he said the F-35s will be executing Close Air Support sorties this week to work out tactics, techniques and procedures.

I don't think you understand. it didn't "perform" at all. It never once entered into contested air space. Not once. It designated targets and was never placed in harms way. In other words, the paid release that was published in AW&ST was not entirely factual. None were lost because none were risked.

 

[DrainBamage]

I don't think you understand. it didn't "perform" at all. It never once entered into contested air space. Not once. It designated targets and was never placed in harms way. In other words, the paid release that was published in AW&ST was not entirely factual. None were lost because none were risked.

No, you're dismissing multiple sources and reading too much into a quote to create yet another Westwall alternate reality. See quote above, primary role as CAS providers penetrating contested battlespace.

You continue to exemplify blind dogma, now anything that doesn't suit your worldview is a paid piece including Aviation Week, yet you'll quote any blogger you can find as gospel to try to make your point.

 

[Manonthestreet]

Mattis just ordered a full review of the program......I'm again getting the impression the Navy doesnt want theirs...or very many of em......

 

[DrainBamage]

Here is a quote from Mo Vaughn, a marine also in on the big conspiracy to lie about the F-35s capabilities

Four of the most experienced USMC F-35B pilots speak about their aircraft. And they say it’s exceptional.

I was leading a four ship of F-35s on a strike against 4th Gen adversaries, F-16s and F/A-18s. We fought our way in, we mapped the target, found the target, dropped JDAMs on the target and turned around and fought our way out. All the targets got hit, nobody got detected, and all the adversaries died. I thought, yes, this works, very, very, very well. Never detected, nobody had any idea we were out there.

 

[Manonthestreet]

An F/18 super has irst and F-35 cant hide from it as do large number if not most Russian fighters

 

[DrainBamage]

An F/18 super has irst and F-35 cant hide from it

Hiding is relative, if AGP-81finds that F-18 at greater range than IRST can volume search the skies then it is hidden enough.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

It is pretty funny that you believe posting a youtube video of an A-10 shooting it's cannon proves another plane is a poor choice for the CAS role, it demonstrates an extremely dogmatic and shallow way of thinking.

Eighty percent of CAS missions in Iraq and Afghanistan have been conducted by planes other than the A-10, everything from B-1s to AC-130s to F-16s. Your faulty logic is therefore claiming that all this support from Air Force planes was poor since they don't have the one characteristic (GAU-8) that you are enamored with, despite use of that gun to kill enemies is a very tiny minority weapons deployed across all CAS missions. I disagree with this, I think USAF is doing an outstanding job supporting the ground troops with all these different airplanes in CAS roles. There are scenarios where the A-10 has particular advantages over other platforms, and scenarios where other platforms have advantages over an A-10.

If someone posts a video of a B-1 using a three hour loiter time to monitor the battlefield while dropping 40 JDAMs on enemies does that prove A-10 is a poor choice for CAS since it can't do this?

If someone posts a video of an F-15E arriving from 200 kilometers away in just minutes to put some LGBs on insurgents can we say it proves A-10 is a poor choice for CAS since the A-10 would still be 10 minutes away while our troops are getting killed?

If someone posts a video of an F-16 high overhead dropping cluster munitions on enemy armor in Iraq, because A-10 was pulled from that area due to SAMs shooting the down (yes, this happened) can we say it is superior in CAS role since A-10 isn't even there?

What you are is a fanboy, the epitome of fanboy. You like a certain plane and get all giddy watching videos of it shooting it's gun, and it makes you blindly local to the point where facts and logic go by the wayside.

What I am arguing is that in the CAS role which you claim the F-35 is BETTER than the A-10 at performing, there is ZERO evidence to support your statement. Add to that the fact that if a A-10 is shot up it will likely survive, which the F-35 won't, that even if shot down it is four times (at minimum) cheaper than the F-35 so replacement isn't nearly as big a burden, that if shot down the odds are GREATLY in favor of the pilot surviving, thus they are more willing to hang it out there on a mission, thus increasing their effectiveness.

Your attempts at deflection while amusing are not helping you. Attack the points I made, not me.

In 2014, during Green Flag where the ground forces show up to play their games, the F-16s and the A-10s were chopped to pieces. In Green Flag of 2015, they sent in two F-35s. The bagged the CAS Targets, neutralized the surface to air radar with ZERO losses. How much proof do you need?

Provide links to support your claims please.

GREEN FLAG

F-35 performs CAS role during Green Flag

F-35s played the US Army’s primary CAS providers during Green Flag. And were not shot down in the process F-35s played the US Army’s primary CAS providers during Green Flag. And were not shot down in the process

This is from a simple search on Google. You should try it and actually ask the right questions. Every task they have asked of the F-35A has been positive.

Considering that two of the F35As were tasked with CAS and was successful while the year before, the F-16 and the A-10 was ground to hamburger that tells loads. When there are no manpads in enemies hands ANY AF Fighter or Attack bird can handle it. But introduce manpads and you can't come in low and slow anymore without a suicide pact. Ask the Russians.

OK, the first video merely shows it being there, we already knew that, the 2nd link was more interesting. Here is the relevant section.


"On the other side, several other analysts claim the participation of two test aircraft in the exercise was just a PR stunt, since the aircraft is still quite far from achieving a combat readiness required to really support the troops at war: it can’t use the gun, it is limited to a couple of JDAMs (Joint Direct Attack Munitions) and it is still flawed by a long list of serious issues, including those to the 400K USD HMD (Helmet Mounted Display)."

So, they had an aircraft that was limited to two bombs, and they can make the claim that it was there. OK. There is nothing here that supports your claim that it was a "star performer".

Further research found this little tidbit...




"The planes aren’t using ordnance but are using their sensors to find and target the enemies — based on the sort of capabilities Russia and China boast — and then are sharing data with the older airplanes who kill them.

“We are continuing to expand our integration with other players,” Silveria said. And he was supposed to fly an F-35 with F-22s last Saturday. Also, he said the F-35s will be executing Close Air Support sorties this week to work out tactics, techniques and procedures.

So the JSF isn’t using ordnance but is just used to search ground targets, not totally the same way as the A-10’s and F-16’s are used."
The JSF.. wow it survived Green Flag:)


So, what they actually did was swan about designating targets for the actual CAS aircraft. OK, that's useful. But a whole lot of different aircraft can do that mission. For a hell of a lot less cost.

First hint that the Link is bogus is that it starts with WORDPRESS.

Helmet: The A got the small helmet last year. The year before and earlier, it was using the Neck Breaker where you had to be over 136 lbs and "This High to go on this Ride".

Weapons: In 2015, the A could use the gravity bombs (2 of them) and the AMRAAMS. They didn't want to use the gun quite yet since the last time they played that game was with the F-104 that caused fires in the front of the guns. But if you can precision hit with a freefall then all is good. They are now using JDAMS. And they are working on testing the PGMs. It's still a fully functional bird and just keeps getting better. BTW, it has guns now.

And, yes, you are correct. The F-35A is one damned expensive bird if all you do is use your own CAS. Or you can vector in Artillery with pinpoint accuracy, hijack a couple of eggs from a passing B-1 and even direct in Naval Guns and Missiles. Having the gun onboard is just a feel good. All of this has been done.

To give you an idea, the F-15 has a mod that is progged to take it to 12 AMRAAMS. Or a few tons of JDAMS and PGMs. They can be fired outside the lockon range and the F-35 sits 40 to 50 clicks off and guides them in. At about 35 clicks, they can be seen but not locked on by either ground or air assets. But at 40 to 50, only the Ground can know they are there but they can't do a damned thing about it just before their screens go blank. Even the heavily vaunted SA300 and 400 can't see it any further. The older stuff can't see it at all. Even if you are aware of him you are in serious trouble since something somewhere has fired a super sonic weapon at your Radar Trailer.

If the F-35A operated like the A-10 and the F-16 on CAS, it would be smoked just like they are in a contested environment. ISIS has laid it's hands on a few Manpads. Ask the Russians how that's working out for them.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

An F/18 super has irst and F-35 cant hide from it

Hiding is relative, if AGP-81finds that F-18 at greater range than IRST can volume search the skies then it is hidden enough.

The IRST is very short ranged. And you really can't use it for lockon. In contested areas, the F-35A or the B stays at least 40 clicks out and the IRST is worthless.

 

[westwall]

What I am arguing is that in the CAS role which you claim the F-35 is BETTER than the A-10 at performing, there is ZERO evidence to support your statement. Add to that the fact that if a A-10 is shot up it will likely survive, which the F-35 won't, that even if shot down it is four times (at minimum) cheaper than the F-35 so replacement isn't nearly as big a burden, that if shot down the odds are GREATLY in favor of the pilot surviving, thus they are more willing to hang it out there on a mission, thus increasing their effectiveness.

Your attempts at deflection while amusing are not helping you. Attack the points I made, not me.

In 2014, during Green Flag where the ground forces show up to play their games, the F-16s and the A-10s were chopped to pieces. In Green Flag of 2015, they sent in two F-35s. The bagged the CAS Targets, neutralized the surface to air radar with ZERO losses. How much proof do you need?

Provide links to support your claims please.

GREEN FLAG

F-35 performs CAS role during Green Flag

F-35s played the US Army’s primary CAS providers during Green Flag. And were not shot down in the process F-35s played the US Army’s primary CAS providers during Green Flag. And were not shot down in the process

This is from a simple search on Google. You should try it and actually ask the right questions. Every task they have asked of the F-35A has been positive.

Considering that two of the F35As were tasked with CAS and was successful while the year before, the F-16 and the A-10 was ground to hamburger that tells loads. When there are no manpads in enemies hands ANY AF Fighter or Attack bird can handle it. But introduce manpads and you can't come in low and slow anymore without a suicide pact. Ask the Russians.

OK, the first video merely shows it being there, we already knew that, the 2nd link was more interesting. Here is the relevant section.


"On the other side, several other analysts claim the participation of two test aircraft in the exercise was just a PR stunt, since the aircraft is still quite far from achieving a combat readiness required to really support the troops at war: it can’t use the gun, it is limited to a couple of JDAMs (Joint Direct Attack Munitions) and it is still flawed by a long list of serious issues, including those to the 400K USD HMD (Helmet Mounted Display)."

So, they had an aircraft that was limited to two bombs, and they can make the claim that it was there. OK. There is nothing here that supports your claim that it was a "star performer".

Further research found this little tidbit...




"The planes aren’t using ordnance but are using their sensors to find and target the enemies — based on the sort of capabilities Russia and China boast — and then are sharing data with the older airplanes who kill them.

“We are continuing to expand our integration with other players,” Silveria said. And he was supposed to fly an F-35 with F-22s last Saturday. Also, he said the F-35s will be executing Close Air Support sorties this week to work out tactics, techniques and procedures.

So the JSF isn’t using ordnance but is just used to search ground targets, not totally the same way as the A-10’s and F-16’s are used."
The JSF.. wow it survived Green Flag:)


So, what they actually did was swan about designating targets for the actual CAS aircraft. OK, that's useful. But a whole lot of different aircraft can do that mission. For a hell of a lot less cost.

First hint that the Link is bogus is that it starts with WORDPRESS.

Helmet: The A got the small helmet last year. The year before and earlier, it was using the Neck Breaker where you had to be over 136 lbs and "This High to go on this Ride".

Weapons: In 2015, the A could use the gravity bombs (2 of them) and the AMRAAMS. They didn't want to use the gun quite yet since the last time they played that game was with the F-104 that caused fires in the front of the guns. But if you can precision hit with a freefall then all is good. They are now using JDAMS. And they are working on testing the PGMs. It's still a fully functional bird and just keeps getting better. BTW, it has guns now.

And, yes, you are correct. The F-35A is one damned expensive bird if all you do is use your own CAS. Or you can vector in Artillery with pinpoint accuracy, hijack a couple of eggs from a passing B-1 and even direct in Naval Guns and Missiles. Having the gun onboard is just a feel good. All of this has been done.

To give you an idea, the F-15 has a mod that is progged to take it to 12 AMRAAMS. Or a few tons of JDAMS and PGMs. They can be fired outside the lockon range and the F-35 sits 40 to 50 clicks off and guides them in. At about 35 clicks, they can be seen but not locked on by either ground or air assets. But at 40 to 50, only the Ground can know they are there but they can't do a damned thing about it just before their screens go blank. Even the heavily vaunted SA300 and 400 can't see it any further. The older stuff can't see it at all. Even if you are aware of him you are in serious trouble since something somewhere has fired a super sonic weapon at your Radar Trailer.

If the F-35A operated like the A-10 and the F-16 on CAS, it would be smoked just like they are in a contested environment. ISIS has laid it's hands on a few Manpads. Ask the Russians how that's working out for them.

Bombs are great unless the enemy is in close contact, which is generally how insurgents fight it seems.. What do you do then?

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Mattis just ordered a full review of the program......I'm again getting the impression the Navy doesnt want theirs...or very many of em......

I don't know if the Navy actually needs the C model when they can borrow the Marines with the B models that are pretty damned effective already. The B has already been tested to vector in the big stuff the Navy can sling well past the ships ability to see.

 

[westwall]

An F/18 super has irst and F-35 cant hide from it

Hiding is relative, if AGP-81finds that F-18 at greater range than IRST can volume search the skies then it is hidden enough.

The IRST is very short ranged. And you really can't use it for lockon. In contested areas, the F-35A or the B stays at least 40 clicks out and the IRST is worthless.

Wow. You don't know anything do you. The MiG 23's IRST could detect and track an F-16 from head on at a range of 35-40 km. 60 km from the rear. That was over 20 years ago!

"In 1960s and 1970s, Soviets deployed IRST units on their MiG-23, MiG-31, Su-27 and MiG-29 fighters. This was intended to provide passive BVR surveillance capability to fighters, and also as a way of countering Western advantage in radar technology and countermeasures. In fact, MiG-23 and MiG-31 interceptors were able to track the SR-71 recon aircraft from large distance, possibly up to 100 kilometers. This was despite the fact that the system was rather primitive, and that MiG-31s own skin and canopy would reach temperatures of over 760 degrees Celsius during the intercepts. MiG-23 had an IRST capable of detecting the F-16 at 35-40 km head on and 60 km from the rear. Later developments of Su-27 and MiG-29 families all have internal IRST."

Airborne IRST properties and performance

 

[DrainBamage]

The IRST is very short ranged. And you really can't use it for lockon. In contested areas, the F-35A or the B stays at least 40 clicks out and the IRST is worthless.

Yep, IRST is no panacea, the more area of the sky you want to scan in a certain amount of time the shorter the effective range. F-35 has a way longer stick here.

 

[DrainBamage]

Bombs are great unless the enemy is in close contact, which is generally how insurgents fight it seems.. What do you do then?

Ah so all these thousands of JDAMs they have dropped in CAS role against these insurgents who generally fight close have been useless.

Let's repeat again for Westwall: the overwhelming majority of CAS in modern era is performed with precision guided munitions. They can drop bombs accurately enough to hit targets quite close to friendlies.

 

[DrainBamage]

Wow. You don't know anything do you. The MiG 23's IRST could detect and track an F-16 from head on at a range of 35-40 km. 60 km from the rear. That was over 20 years ago!

You're not proving him wrong by showing tracking ranges of 20-30 miles. What matters is whether IRST can outrange AGP-81 when searching the entire sky, IRST is much shorter range than a good AESA radar.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

In 2014, during Green Flag where the ground forces show up to play their games, the F-16s and the A-10s were chopped to pieces. In Green Flag of 2015, they sent in two F-35s. The bagged the CAS Targets, neutralized the surface to air radar with ZERO losses. How much proof do you need?

Provide links to support your claims please.

GREEN FLAG

F-35 performs CAS role during Green Flag

F-35s played the US Army’s primary CAS providers during Green Flag. And were not shot down in the process F-35s played the US Army’s primary CAS providers during Green Flag. And were not shot down in the process

This is from a simple search on Google. You should try it and actually ask the right questions. Every task they have asked of the F-35A has been positive.

Considering that two of the F35As were tasked with CAS and was successful while the year before, the F-16 and the A-10 was ground to hamburger that tells loads. When there are no manpads in enemies hands ANY AF Fighter or Attack bird can handle it. But introduce manpads and you can't come in low and slow anymore without a suicide pact. Ask the Russians.

OK, the first video merely shows it being there, we already knew that, the 2nd link was more interesting. Here is the relevant section.


"On the other side, several other analysts claim the participation of two test aircraft in the exercise was just a PR stunt, since the aircraft is still quite far from achieving a combat readiness required to really support the troops at war: it can’t use the gun, it is limited to a couple of JDAMs (Joint Direct Attack Munitions) and it is still flawed by a long list of serious issues, including those to the 400K USD HMD (Helmet Mounted Display)."

So, they had an aircraft that was limited to two bombs, and they can make the claim that it was there. OK. There is nothing here that supports your claim that it was a "star performer".

Further research found this little tidbit...




"The planes aren’t using ordnance but are using their sensors to find and target the enemies — based on the sort of capabilities Russia and China boast — and then are sharing data with the older airplanes who kill them.

“We are continuing to expand our integration with other players,” Silveria said. And he was supposed to fly an F-35 with F-22s last Saturday. Also, he said the F-35s will be executing Close Air Support sorties this week to work out tactics, techniques and procedures.

So the JSF isn’t using ordnance but is just used to search ground targets, not totally the same way as the A-10’s and F-16’s are used."
The JSF.. wow it survived Green Flag:)


So, what they actually did was swan about designating targets for the actual CAS aircraft. OK, that's useful. But a whole lot of different aircraft can do that mission. For a hell of a lot less cost.

First hint that the Link is bogus is that it starts with WORDPRESS.

Helmet: The A got the small helmet last year. The year before and earlier, it was using the Neck Breaker where you had to be over 136 lbs and "This High to go on this Ride".

Weapons: In 2015, the A could use the gravity bombs (2 of them) and the AMRAAMS. They didn't want to use the gun quite yet since the last time they played that game was with the F-104 that caused fires in the front of the guns. But if you can precision hit with a freefall then all is good. They are now using JDAMS. And they are working on testing the PGMs. It's still a fully functional bird and just keeps getting better. BTW, it has guns now.

And, yes, you are correct. The F-35A is one damned expensive bird if all you do is use your own CAS. Or you can vector in Artillery with pinpoint accuracy, hijack a couple of eggs from a passing B-1 and even direct in Naval Guns and Missiles. Having the gun onboard is just a feel good. All of this has been done.

To give you an idea, the F-15 has a mod that is progged to take it to 12 AMRAAMS. Or a few tons of JDAMS and PGMs. They can be fired outside the lockon range and the F-35 sits 40 to 50 clicks off and guides them in. At about 35 clicks, they can be seen but not locked on by either ground or air assets. But at 40 to 50, only the Ground can know they are there but they can't do a damned thing about it just before their screens go blank. Even the heavily vaunted SA300 and 400 can't see it any further. The older stuff can't see it at all. Even if you are aware of him you are in serious trouble since something somewhere has fired a super sonic weapon at your Radar Trailer.

If the F-35A operated like the A-10 and the F-16 on CAS, it would be smoked just like they are in a contested environment. ISIS has laid it's hands on a few Manpads. Ask the Russians how that's working out for them.

Bombs are great unless the enemy is in close contact, which is generally how insurgents fight it seems.. What do you do then?

And old adage comes back to when I boxed. How do you avoid being hit? Just don't get hit. You nail the sucker with a JDAM just like the A-10 will have to do. Flying Nap of the Earth only works these days with TFR and the A-10 will never get that system. The F-15E has it as does the F-35A. I flew on one night mission in a B-52 that flew down a canyon. That made it two times. My first and my last at the same time. If conditions are socked in that bad and you need CAS that bad, the only two birds that do it are the F-15E and the F-35A. CAS has been done once in that situation and the crew was awarded the McKay Trophy. There were a number F-4Es that could have done it as well but never had to. The F-111 also could do it. Funny thing, the F-111 climbs with it's but in the air. You really have to trust your bird. Question it for one second and you are scattered for the next 2 or 3 miles.

As for close, you can drop a conventional from 10K and 30K out if you have the bird to do it. Right now, there are only 3 that have that capability other then the Bombers and those are the F-15E, F-22 and the F-35. Sorry to inform you are using decades old information.

 

[westwall]

Bombs are great unless the enemy is in close contact, which is generally how insurgents fight it seems.. What do you do then?

Ah so all these thousands of JDAMs they have dropped in CAS role against these insurgents who generally fight close have been useless.

Let's repeat again for Westwall: the overwhelming majority of CAS in modern era is performed with precision guided munitions. They can drop bombs accurately enough to hit targets quite close to friendlies.

Let's repeat for drain, CAS aircraft are required to accomplish a LOT of different mission profiles. You claiming that a gun is useless is not born out by actual, real world experience.
In any sort of urban combat situation the precise use of the 30mm has been a battle winner. Situations where a JDAM would kill the defending troops were instead handled with the gun, successfully.

You remind me of all those brainiacs who said modern fighters no longer needed guns because the missiles were going to change everything about air combat. Guess what. They were wrong.