Fascism and the left wing

[Sallow]

No. Fascism is a form of socialism.

Yet, Hitler had all the socialists assassinated out of the Nazi party.

Wrong. Communists were admitted immediately into the Nazi Party.

The truth is, it doesn't truly fit anywhere in with american left or right, actually, you would need a totally different scale.

the left/right paradigm has always been bullshit.

Where the fuck do you come up with this stuff?

 

[bripat9643]

Your list was invented by a marketing executive.

Why should anyone accept it as authoritative?

Fascism
A class of political ideologies (and historical political regimes) that takes its name from the movement led by Benito Mussolini that took power in Italy in 1922. Mussolini's ideas and practices directly and indirectly influenced political movements in Germany (especially the Nazi Party), Spain (Franco's Falange Party), France, Argentina, and many other European and non-European countries right up to the present day.

The different "fascist" movements and regimes have varied considerably in their specific goals and practices, but they are usually said to be characterized by several common features:
1.
Militant nationalism, proclaiming the racial and cultural superiority of the dominant ethnic group and asserting that group's inherent right to a special dominant position over other peoples in both the domestic and the international order

2.
The adulation of a single charismatic national leader said to possess near superhuman abilities and to be the truest representation of the ideals of the national culture, whose will should therefore literally be law

3.
Emphasis on the absolute necessity of complete national unity, which is said to require a very powerful and disciplined state organization (especially an extensive secret police and censorship apparatus), unlimited by constitutional restrictions or legal requirements and under the absolute domination of the leader and his political movement or party

4.
Militant anti-Communism coupled with the belief in an extreme and imminent threat to national security from powerful and determined Communist forces both inside and outside the country

5.
Contempt for democratic socialism, democratic capitalism, liberalism, and all forms of individualism as weak, degenerate, divisive and ineffective ideologies leading only to mediocrity or national suicide

6.
Glorification of physical strength, fanatical personal loyalty to the leader, and general combat-readiness as the ultimate personal virtues

7.
A sophisticated apparatus for systematically propagandizing the population into accepting these values and ideas through skilled manipulation of the mass media, which are totally monopolized by the regime once the movement comes to power

8.
A propensity toward pursuing a militaristic and aggressive foreign policy

9.
Strict regulation and control of the economy by the regime through some form of corporatist economic planning in which the legal forms of private ownership of industry are nominally preserved but in which both workers and capitalists are obliged to submit their plans and objectives to the most detailed state regulation and extensive wage and price controls, which are designed to insure the priority of the political leadership's objectives over the private economic interests of the citizenry. Therefore under fascism most of the more important markets are allowed to operate only in a non-competitive, cartelized, and governmentally "rigged" fashion.


[See also: totalitarianism, propaganda, dictatorship, autocracy]

Link: Fascism: A Glossary of Political Economy Terms - Dr. Paul M. Johnson

 

[Sallow]

Amazed -

What evidence can you suggest that the word has been "re-cast" given all German sources at the time of WWII also described at as right wing.

National Socialist Party.

You are in the wrong sand box.

Ah..tags.

North Korea is called the Democratic Republic of Korea.

So..using this post..you believe North Korea to be a Democratic Republic, correct?

 

[Saigon]

In lieu of defending his argument, Saigon says 'NUH UHNH!!!' even more emphatically.

Key differences between Fascism and Communism:

1) Class. Fascism is based on support from the middle and upper classes. Whereas communism relies on support by workers and the idea of smashing classes, Fascism intends to strengthen the class system. Hitler promised the middle and upper classes enormous wealth, and sought to deliver by channeling government contracts into private firms, thus delivering massive windfalls to share holders. Although workers suported Hitler, he did not rely on their support as much of those of the elite. Hitler also chose people like philosopher Martin Heidigger and architect Albert Speer to appeal to elite groups in society.

2) Capital. Communism seeks to do away with money, Fascism seeks to channel it. Hitler and Franco both sought to make their supporters rich through their private businesses, destroying competition and removing laws which impeded their growth.

3) Ethnicity. Whereas Lenin promoted Jews and even Stalin maintained the 'One Nation, Many Peoples' concept, Fascists like Antonescu and Hitler sought to destroy minority races and maintain racial putiry. Within the Soviet inner circle there were Armenians, Jews, Azeris and Georgians, in no Fascist country could this ever take place.


Posters might also like to keep in mind that Hitler represents only one of a dozen fascist states - in each case we see these same trends put into place. Antonescu and Franco, even Stroessner are both excellent examples of extreme right wing ideology.

 

[Bfgrn]

Don't know where the graph came from, but it's bogus. Fascism/nazism are about gov't control, something the right is absolutely against. The right is for the opposite, smaller and less intrusive gov't. Any kind of totalitarianism is a far left form of gov't. The extreme right is for as little gov't as possible or no gov't at all. IOW, anarchy.

Less intrusive gov't for WHOM? Less intrusive gov't for teachers in Wisconsin who lost their rights? Less intrusive gov't for citizens in Florida on food stamps who have to piss in a cup? Less intrusive gov't for Hispanics in Arizona who are profiled and harassed?

You are spewing the BIGGEST lie in our nations history. You right wing authoritarians ABSOLUTELY LOVE government when it bombs humans off the face of the earth, arrests, incarcerates and executes.

The ONLY people you want less government for are the plutocrats and the opulent you right wingers worship. Less intrusive gov't for polluters. Less intrusive gov't for Wall Street so they can plunder and steal from working folks. Less intrusive gov't for insurance cartels who have REAL death panels.

 

[Amazed]

Sorry Saigon, it is a tool used by the extremes of both sides...your blindness to that truth shows your inability to learn beyond what others have told you.

 

[bripat9643]

"Right wing" Fascism is COMPLETELY subjective

If the definitions of communism as being left wing and conservatism as being right wing are not subjective - why would fascism be any different?

Again, this is NOT subjective, and not a matter of opinion.

It is simply a matter of fact, and funnily enough one you can check in almost any dictionary.

The posters opposing dictionaries are: Frank, Sniper, SunniMan, BritPat and BigReb.

I think the names in that list say an awful lot about the position they hold, as well.

Anyone who thinks quoting the dictionary is a compelling argument simply isn't capable of rational thought.

You've been spouting logical fallacies since the beginning of this thread. You don't even see that as a problem with your arguments. You have rejected logic. You're a true leftist.

 

[SniperFire]

. Use facts to support your claims, not some bogus authority.

If you oppose socialism, you're on the right.

Well, here it is from Hitler himself - is he a good authority?


"The streets of our country are in turmoil. The universities are filled with students rebelling and rioting. Communists are seeking to destroy our country. Russia is threatening us with her might, and the Republic is in danger. Yes - danger from within and without. We need law and order! Without it our nation cannot survive."

In view of the complete subordination of the present State to Marxism, the National Socialist Movement feels all the more bound not only to prepare the way for the triumph of its idea by appealing to the reason and understanding of the public but also to take upon itself the responsibility of organizing its own defence against the terror of the International, which is intoxicated with its own victory.

In this way the struggle against the present State was placed on a higher plane than that of petty revenge and small conspiracies. It was elevated to the level of a spiritual struggle on behalf of a WELTANSCHAUUNG, for the destruction of Marxism in all its shapes and forms.

In the years 1913 and 1914 I expressed my opinion for the first time in various circles, some of which are now members of the National Socialist Movement, that the problem of how the future of the German nation can be secured is the problem of how Marxism can be exterminated.

Coke v. Pepsi.

Hitler believed strongly that his brand of authoritarian central planning was superior to the Soviet brand of authoritarian central planning.

The American experiment is the 'uncola.' In your infographic, America represents an alternative not shown which is perhaps between two slivers of 'anarchy.'

Of course, you know this, but you are intellectually dishonest.

 

[percysunshine]

 

[bripat9643]

It looks to me like the thread is going to be spammed a lot now by the anti-dictionary tribe, but I will still answer any on-topic replies as best I can.

Quoting the dictionary is all you got? Seriously?

 

[thanatos144]

The problem with this argument is the progressives think comunism is not just another form of facism just like socialism is.... That's why it is a left wing ideology .. this is what happened when we allowed the left to take over education.

I'm just sorry you missed out on that education.

Communism is in no way whatsoever a form of fascism, and neither is socialism.

Please read the OP, or do an internet search on the terms - it really is that easy.

I did read your op and found it void of truth. I know you can't see how communism a giant oppressive government is just facism a giant oppressive government.

 

[Saigon]

America represents an alternative not shown which is perhaps between two slivers of 'anarchy.'

Right. Because America is an anarchic state.

Let's see...

an·ar·chy (nr-k)
n. pl. an·ar·chies
1. Absence of any form of political authority.
2. Political disorder and confusion.
3. Absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose.

anarchy - definition of anarchy by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

Jesus wept....

 

[bripat9643]

So what's your basis for claiming the definition is a fact? Absolutely nothing.

The last 60 years of political sciences - basically all dictionaries, encyclopedias, academics and books on the topic, some of which have already been cited.

On the other side of the debate we thus far have one illiterate blog.

You mean 60 years of leftist propaganda. The term "political science" is any oxymoron. The social sciences are largely centers for political brainwashing. Our universities are infested with leftists. It's inconceivable that any of them would admit Hitler was one their own.

 

[Saigon]

So what's your basis for claiming the definition is a fact? Absolutely nothing.

The last 60 years of political sciences - basically all dictionaries, encyclopedias, academics and books on the topic, some of which have already been cited.

On the other side of the debate we thus far have one illiterate blog.

You mean 60 years of leftist propaganda. The term "political science" is any oxymoron. The social sciences are largely centers for political brainwashing. Our universities are infested with leftists. It's inconceivable that any of them would admit Hitler was one their own.

But...Hitler himself said the same thing.

So did a half dozen German historians working in Germany at the time of the war. I am happy to provide the citations if you wish - some are also available in English.

 

[bripat9643]

If you oppose socialism, you're on the right.

Now you are getting it, Bripat - excellent!

"The streets of our country are in turmoil. The universities are filled with students rebelling and rioting. Communists are seeking to destroy our country. Russia is threatening us with her might, and the Republic is in danger. Yes - danger from within and without. We need law and order! Without it our nation cannot survive."

In view of the complete subordination of the present State to Marxism, the National Socialist Movement feels all the more bound not only to prepare the way for the triumph of its idea by appealing to the reason and understanding of the public but also to take upon itself the responsibility of organizing its own defence against the terror of the International, which is intoxicated with its own victory.

In this way the struggle against the present State was placed on a higher plane than that of petty revenge and small conspiracies. It was elevated to the level of a spiritual struggle on behalf of a WELTANSCHAUUNG, for the destruction of Marxism in all its shapes and forms.

In the years 1913 and 1914 I expressed my opinion for the first time in various circles, some of which are now members of the National Socialist Movement, that the problem of how the future of the German nation can be secured is the problem of how Marxism can be exterminated.

Adolf Hitler's political views - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions.

- Adolf Hitler -​

Game, set and match.

 

[Sallow]

It looks to me like the thread is going to be spammed a lot now by the anti-dictionary tribe, but I will still answer any on-topic replies as best I can.

Quoting the dictionary is all you got? Seriously?

 

[Wry Catcher]

If the definitions of communism as being left wing and conservatism as being right wing are not subjective - why would fascism be any different?

Sure they are.

Political ideology constantly evolves to meet the present circumstance.

It has to change from what it was to keep relevant.

So we may see right wing communists somewhere, or left wing conservatives?

I agree that worlds eviolve, but somehow I don't think quite so much.

Given the posts by the self defined conservatives and independents on this message board devolved best describes what I label the Callous Conservative movement, one which defies left or right definitions. It is anti government, anti immigrant, anti woman, anti liberal, anti intellectual and anti democratic. At its core is extreme xenophobia.

It is anarchy light; it is an ideology which rips the blindfold off of Lady Liberty and uses the law as a means to an end; that end is self serving and antithetical to the principle of liberty as so well described by Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence.

 

[bripat9643]

It looks to me like the thread is going to be spammed a lot now by the anti-dictionary tribe, but I will still answer any on-topic replies as best I can.

Cool.

Would you agree that the 'centre' on your infographic represents the crossover between Communism and Fascism?

No, it represents the ideological distance between the two.

Note that they are closer to each other than they are to the centre - but note also that there is a gap between them.

Your picture is nothing more than a picture. I can also draw pictures. What do they prove? Nothing.

 

[bripat9643]

Simple question for you, wad catcher.

Were Nazis authoritarian central planners, or not?

Therein is your problem, seeking simple answers to complex issues is ridiculous (which characterizes most if not all of your posts).

First, define "central planners"; I suspect you have no idea.

Another leftist runs away like a scared little puppy.

 

[Bfgrn]

Socialism is liberal. More people (preferably everyone) have some say in how the economy works. Democracy is liberal. More people (preferably everyone) have some say in how the government works. "Democracy," said Marx, "is the road to socialism." He was wrong about how economics and politics interact, but he did see their similar underpinnings.

Communism is conservative. Fewer and fewer people (preferably just the Party Secretary) have any say in how the economy works. Republicans are conservative. Fewer and fewer people (preferably just people controlling the Party figurehead) have any say in how the government works. The conservatives in the US are in the same position as the communists in the 30s, and for the same reason: Their revolutions failed spectacularly but they refuse to admit what went wrong.

A common mistake is to confuse Socialism, the economic system, with Communism, the political system. Communists are "socialist" in the same way that Republicans are "compassionate conservatives". That is, they give lip service to ideals they have no intention of practicing.

Communism, or "scientific socialism", has very little to do with Marx. Communism was originally envisioned by Marx and Engels as the last stages of their socialist revolution. "The meaning of the word communism shifted after 1917, when Vladimir Lenin and his Bolshevik Party seized power in Russia. The Bolsheviks changed their name to the Communist Party and installed a repressive, single-party regime devoted to the implementation of socialist policies." (quote from Encarta.). Those socialist policies were never implemented.

Whereas Marx saw industrialized workers rising up to take over control of their means of production, the exact opposite happened. Most countries that have gone Communist have been agrarian underdeveloped nations. The prime example is the Soviet Union. The best thing to be said about the October Revolution in 1917 is that the new government was better than the Tsars. The worst thing is that they trusted the wrong people, notably Lenin, to lead this upheaval. The Soviet Union officially abandoned socialism in 1921 when Lenin instituted the New Economic Policy allowing for taxation, local trade, some state capitalism... and extreme profiteering. Later that year, he purged 259,000 from the party membership and therefore purged them from voting (shades of the US election of 2000!) and fewer and fewer people were involved in making decisions.

Marxism became Marxist-Leninism which became Stalinism. The Wikipedia entry for Stalinism: "The term Stalinism was used by anti-Soviet Marxists, particularly Trotskyists, to distinguish the policies of the Soviet Union from those they regard as more true to Marxism. Trotskyists argue that the Stalinist USSR was not socialist, but a bureaucratized degenerated workers state that is, a state in which exploitation is controlled by a ruling caste which, while it did not own the means of production and was not a social class in its own right, accrued benefits and privileges at the expense of the working class."

Communists defending Stalin were driven by Cognitive Dissonance. "The existence of dissonance, being psychologically uncomfortable, motivates the person to reduce the dissonance and leads to avoidance of information likely to increase the dissonance." They didn't want to hear any criticism, and would go out of their way to deny facts. The abrupt betrayal of ideals by Lenin and Marx left many socialists clinging to the Soviet Union even though they knew Stalin was a disaster. They called themselves Communist even though they espoused none of Stalin's viewpoints and very few of Lenin's revisionism. In Russia, Lenin remains a Hero of the Revolution. Despite having screwed things up in the first place, Stalin is revered by Communists for toppling the Third Reich.

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While not all conservatives are authoritarians; all highly authoritarian personalities are political conservatives.
Robert Altmeyer - The Authoritarians