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That isn't the point, is it.
And, I did read all of it.
And more.
No...the point is two fold:
1.As the thread indicates,there is more to FDR's relationship with the USSR/Stalin than you apologists allow.
2. Intelligent people such as you and reggie are unable to break free of your childish worship, and address the real questions of history and politics.
I hope you will continue to read posts of mine that reveal links of FDR's to.....let's call it 'the unknown until now.'
You may comment or not, as you wish.
That isn't the point, is it.
And, I did read all of it.
And more.
No...the point is two fold:
1.As the thread indicates,there is more to FDR's relationship with the USSR/Stalin than you apologists allow.
2. Intelligent people such as you and reggie are unable to break free of your childish worship, and address the real questions of history and politics.
I hope you will continue to read posts of mine that reveal links of FDR's to.....let's call it 'the unknown until now.'
You may comment or not, as you wish.
(My bold)
So, are you a Turing routine running on someone's mainframe? If so, please have the techs dial back on the condescension. & have them update your DBs - they seem antique. Try to get some more up-to-date stuff to hurl about.
& thanks for the permission, BTW.
(My bold)
Nah, if you actually read the historum site - under "lend lease ussr nuclear material" you'll see calculations that the amount of uranium transferred couldn't possibly have been enough for a nuke pile. The amount of weapons-grade fissile U can't have been enough to construct a nuke device, not even assuming 100% efficiency in refining.
That isn't the point, is it.
And, I did read all of it.
And more.
No...the point is two fold:
1.As the thread indicates,there is more to FDR's relationship with the USSR/Stalin than you apologists allow.
2. Intelligent people such as you and reggie are unable to break free of your childish worship, and address the real questions of history and politics.
I hope you will continue to read posts of mine that reveal links of FDR's to.....let's call it 'the unknown until now.'
You may comment or not, as you wish.
All those historians with that same childish worship, how do we account for that? How do we account for the American people's childish worship? How do we account for the years of Republican attempts to destroy that childish worship? So many attempts to undo that childish worship and it's still there, and worse, over time, it's no longer considered childish.
Oppenheimer and the others knew it would only be a matter of time until others built the bomb and the bigger question was should we use it on people or what?
And of Lend Lease, America sent factories to the USSR along with the butter and some day an author will discover that and out will come a book explaining how we dismantled General Motors and sent it to the USSR under the guise of Lend Lease.
Thousands of mistakes were made in WWII from bad decisions by PFC's to the president.
That isn't the point, is it.
And, I did read all of it.
And more.
No...the point is two fold:
1.As the thread indicates,there is more to FDR's relationship with the USSR/Stalin than you apologists allow.
2. Intelligent people such as you and reggie are unable to break free of your childish worship, and address the real questions of history and politics.
I hope you will continue to read posts of mine that reveal links of FDR's to.....let's call it 'the unknown until now.'
You may comment or not, as you wish.
(My bold)
So, are you a Turing routine running on someone's mainframe? If so, please have the techs dial back on the condescension. & have them update your DBs - they seem antique. Try to get some more up-to-date stuff to hurl about.
& thanks for the permission, BTW.
Gee....I thought one who wrote "The specifics you mention remind me of a chihuahua yapping @ my ankles." would appreciate the tone.
"...up-to-date stuff...."
Actually, the material I provide is up-to-date stuff.....and that's exactly what you FDR-worshipers find annoying......
...what you refer to as 'yapping at your ankles.'
Some would call that condescending.
(My bold)
So, are you a Turing routine running on someone's mainframe? If so, please have the techs dial back on the condescension. & have them update your DBs - they seem antique. Try to get some more up-to-date stuff to hurl about.
& thanks for the permission, BTW.
Gee....I thought one who wrote "The specifics you mention remind me of a chihuahua yapping @ my ankles." would appreciate the tone.
"...up-to-date stuff...."
Actually, the material I provide is up-to-date stuff.....and that's exactly what you FDR-worshipers find annoying......
...what you refer to as 'yapping at your ankles.'
Some would call that condescending.
That up-to-date stuff is over seventy years old, it has been explored, gone over, piece by piece years ago by Republicans in their quest to defame FDR.
Conservatives can only hope a revival of that old material will be fresh and exciting to a new generation and maybe in book form it will garner a few bucks.
Perhaps conservatives would do better with a new investigation of the Pearl Harbor attack, or FDR's failure to rearm America. If those fail, how about FDR's dog, Fala? Fala was good for a short time.
These new revelations of ancient themes might sell books and excite some, but are pretty much old hat. In fact, I wonder if FDR is our most investigated president?
Gee....I thought one who wrote "The specifics you mention remind me of a chihuahua yapping @ my ankles." would appreciate the tone.
"...up-to-date stuff...."
Actually, the material I provide is up-to-date stuff.....and that's exactly what you FDR-worshipers find annoying......
...what you refer to as 'yapping at your ankles.'
Some would call that condescending.
That up-to-date stuff is over seventy years old, it has been explored, gone over, piece by piece years ago by Republicans in their quest to defame FDR.
Conservatives can only hope a revival of that old material will be fresh and exciting to a new generation and maybe in book form it will garner a few bucks.
Perhaps conservatives would do better with a new investigation of the Pearl Harbor attack, or FDR's failure to rearm America. If those fail, how about FDR's dog, Fala? Fala was good for a short time.
These new revelations of ancient themes might sell books and excite some, but are pretty much old hat. In fact, I wonder if FDR is our most investigated president?
Could you provide links re: atomic material in Lend-Lease to USSR that has been "explored, gone over, piece by piece years ago..."
...and I'd be happy to provide a rep.
Otherwise you might look like sniveling FDR boot-licker, trying to deflect criticism without actually dealing with it.
And that's not the case.....
....is it?
That up-to-date stuff is over seventy years old, it has been explored, gone over, piece by piece years ago by Republicans in their quest to defame FDR.
Conservatives can only hope a revival of that old material will be fresh and exciting to a new generation and maybe in book form it will garner a few bucks.
Perhaps conservatives would do better with a new investigation of the Pearl Harbor attack, or FDR's failure to rearm America. If those fail, how about FDR's dog, Fala? Fala was good for a short time.
These new revelations of ancient themes might sell books and excite some, but are pretty much old hat. In fact, I wonder if FDR is our most investigated president?
Could you provide links re: atomic material in Lend-Lease to USSR that has been "explored, gone over, piece by piece years ago..."
...and I'd be happy to provide a rep.
Otherwise you might look like sniveling FDR boot-licker, trying to deflect criticism without actually dealing with it.
And that's not the case.....
....is it?
First, what is atomic material?
Second, you're getting into your personal attack mode.
Third, I don't meed to deflect criticism, FDR's place in history is not dependent on these boards or poster's opinions.
That up-to-date stuff is over seventy years old, it has been explored, gone over, piece by piece years ago by Republicans in their quest to defame FDR.
Conservatives can only hope a revival of that old material will be fresh and exciting to a new generation and maybe in book form it will garner a few bucks.
Perhaps conservatives would do better with a new investigation of the Pearl Harbor attack, or FDR's failure to rearm America. If those fail, how about FDR's dog, Fala? Fala was good for a short time.
These new revelations of ancient themes might sell books and excite some, but are pretty much old hat. In fact, I wonder if FDR is our most investigated president?
Could you provide links re: atomic material in Lend-Lease to USSR that has been "explored, gone over, piece by piece years ago..."
...and I'd be happy to provide a rep.
Otherwise you might look like sniveling FDR boot-licker, trying to deflect criticism without actually dealing with it.
And that's not the case.....
....is it?
First, what is atomic material?
Second, you're getting into your personal attack mode.
Third, I don't meed to deflect criticism, FDR's place in history is not dependent on these boards or poster's opinions.
1. It is well known and documented that FDR's administration was riddled with Stalin's agents, and, in many ways, policy was directed from Moscow. Case in point, aid to Mao and resistance to helping Chiang Kaichek.
Less well known, when told about the spies, Roosevelt simply laughed.
2. Another case was Lend-Lease: supplies didn't just "flow" to the Soviet Union, they flooded it, including non-military supplies: a tire plant, an oil refinery, pipe-fabricating works, over a million miles of copper wire, switchboard-panels, lathes and power tools, textile machinery, woodworking, typesetting, cranes hoists, derricks, air compressors, $152 million in women's 'dress goods,' 18.4 million pounds of writing paper, cigarette cases, jeweled watches, lipstick, liquor, bathtubs, and pianos.
West, "American Betrayal," chapter two.
a. " A year and a half after WWII began in Europe, Roosevelts Lend-Lease supplied a prodigious amount of war materiel to Russia, without which the embattled Red Army, the only challenge to Hitlers forces, would have been defeated. The temporary congruence of interests was called an alliance, albeit a strange one. For example, when the Americans tried to find a way that long-range American bombers could land in Russia to re-fuel, so as to bomb deep into Germany, the Russians were found to be suspicious, ungrateful, secretive, xenophobic, unfriendly, in short .a great deal of take and very little give." The Anti-Communist Manifestos, by John V. Fleming, chapter six.
3. George Kennan wrote: "there is no adequate justification for continuing a program of lavish and almost indiscriminate aid to the Soviet Union at a time when there was increasing reason to doubt whether her purposes in Eastern Europe, aside from the defeat of Germany, would be ones which we Americans could approve and sponsor." George C. Herring, "Aid to Russia," p. xvii.
4. I challenge FDR apologists to explain government largesse to Soviet Russia, even superseding Allied, or even American military needs.
Or American civilian needs: 217,660,666 pounds of butter shipped to the USSR during a time of strict state-side rationing.
John R. Deane, "The Strange Alliance: The Story of Our Efforts at Wartime Cooperation With Russia," p.94-95.
a. "The President has directed that 'airplanes be delivered in accordance with protocol schedules by the most expeditious means.' To implement these directives, the modification, equipment and movement of Russian planes have been given first priority, even over planes for US Army Air Forces."
From the diaries of Maj. George Racey Jordan, supervisory 'expediter' of Soviet Lend-Lease aid, p. 20.
b. At Congressional Hearing Regarding Shipments of Atomic Material to the Soviet Union During WWII, Washington GPO, 1950, p.909-910, Jordon would tell Congress that he kept this presidential directive on his person to show incredulous officers.
5. What was the cost of FDR's unswerving dedication to the Soviets? One example, found in Paul Johnson'sw "Modern Times," 'included 200 modern fighter aircraft, originally intended for Britain's highly vulnerable base in Singapore, which had no modern fighters at all. The diversion of these aircraft, plus tanks, to Russia sealed the fate of Singapore." Johnson, Op.Cit., p. 386.
a. Singapore fell February 15, 1942.
6. "He (FDR) left no doubt of the importance he attached to aid to Russia. 'I would go out and take the stuff off the shelves of the stores,' he told [Treasure Secretary Henry] Morganthau on March 11, 1942, 'and pay them any price necessary, an put it in a truck and rush it to the boat...Nothing would be worse than to have the Russians collapse."
George C. Herring, "Aid to Russia," p. 42,56.
a. Be clear as what 'nothing' meant.
Japan attacked 151,000 Americans and Filipinos stationed in the Philippines. Think Bataan and Corregidor. The 200 modern fighters originally meant for Singapore would have been there...but were in Russia.
b. Roosevelt: "I would rather lose New Zealand, Australia or anything else than have the Russian front collapse."
Robert Dallek, "Franklin D. Roosevelt and American Foreign Policy, 1932-1945," p. 338.
When one begins to consider FDR's 'Russia Uber Alles' policy, evidence from KGB archives, opened in 1991, and the Venona Papers, sheds dispositive light on the reasons for said policy.
Was FDR a dupe of Soviet influence?
No doubt.
1. It is well known and documented that FDR's administration was riddled with Stalin's agents, and, in many ways, policy was directed from Moscow. Case in point, aid to Mao and resistance to helping Chiang Kaichek.
Less well known, when told about the spies, Roosevelt simply laughed.
2. Another case was Lend-Lease: supplies didn't just "flow" to the Soviet Union, they flooded it, including non-military supplies: a tire plant, an oil refinery, pipe-fabricating works, over a million miles of copper wire, switchboard-panels, lathes and power tools, textile machinery, woodworking, typesetting, cranes hoists, derricks, air compressors, $152 million in women's 'dress goods,' 18.4 million pounds of writing paper, cigarette cases, jeweled watches, lipstick, liquor, bathtubs, and pianos.
West, "American Betrayal," chapter two.
a. " A year and a half after WWII began in Europe, Roosevelts Lend-Lease supplied a prodigious amount of war materiel to Russia, without which the embattled Red Army, the only challenge to Hitlers forces, would have been defeated. The temporary congruence of interests was called an alliance, albeit a strange one. For example, when the Americans tried to find a way that long-range American bombers could land in Russia to re-fuel, so as to bomb deep into Germany, the Russians were found to be suspicious, ungrateful, secretive, xenophobic, unfriendly, in short .a great deal of take and very little give." The Anti-Communist Manifestos, by John V. Fleming, chapter six.
3. George Kennan wrote: "there is no adequate justification for continuing a program of lavish and almost indiscriminate aid to the Soviet Union at a time when there was increasing reason to doubt whether her purposes in Eastern Europe, aside from the defeat of Germany, would be ones which we Americans could approve and sponsor." George C. Herring, "Aid to Russia," p. xvii.
4. I challenge FDR apologists to explain government largesse to Soviet Russia, even superseding Allied, or even American military needs.
Or American civilian needs: 217,660,666 pounds of butter shipped to the USSR during a time of strict state-side rationing.
John R. Deane, "The Strange Alliance: The Story of Our Efforts at Wartime Cooperation With Russia," p.94-95.
a. "The President has directed that 'airplanes be delivered in accordance with protocol schedules by the most expeditious means.' To implement these directives, the modification, equipment and movement of Russian planes have been given first priority, even over planes for US Army Air Forces."
From the diaries of Maj. George Racey Jordan, supervisory 'expediter' of Soviet Lend-Lease aid, p. 20.
b. At Congressional Hearing Regarding Shipments of Atomic Material to the Soviet Union During WWII, Washington GPO, 1950, p.909-910, Jordon would tell Congress that he kept this presidential directive on his person to show incredulous officers.
5. What was the cost of FDR's unswerving dedication to the Soviets? One example, found in Paul Johnson'sw "Modern Times," 'included 200 modern fighter aircraft, originally intended for Britain's highly vulnerable base in Singapore, which had no modern fighters at all. The diversion of these aircraft, plus tanks, to Russia sealed the fate of Singapore." Johnson, Op.Cit., p. 386.
a. Singapore fell February 15, 1942.
6. "He (FDR) left no doubt of the importance he attached to aid to Russia. 'I would go out and take the stuff off the shelves of the stores,' he told [Treasure Secretary Henry] Morganthau on March 11, 1942, 'and pay them any price necessary, an put it in a truck and rush it to the boat...Nothing would be worse than to have the Russians collapse."
George C. Herring, "Aid to Russia," p. 42,56.
a. Be clear as what 'nothing' meant.
Japan attacked 151,000 Americans and Filipinos stationed in the Philippines. Think Bataan and Corregidor. The 200 modern fighters originally meant for Singapore would have been there...but were in Russia.
b. Roosevelt: "I would rather lose New Zealand, Australia or anything else than have the Russian front collapse."
Robert Dallek, "Franklin D. Roosevelt and American Foreign Policy, 1932-1945," p. 338.
When one begins to consider FDR's 'Russia Uber Alles' policy, evidence from KGB archives, opened in 1991, and the Venona Papers, sheds dispositive light on the reasons for said policy.
Was FDR a dupe of Soviet influence?
No doubt.
OK, the lesson to be taken from the OP is that FDR was a great politician, but not a great "wartime leader." His decisions usually reflected a path of least resistance, which gave an advantage to his more determined "ally" (Stalin). About the most that can be said about FDR's conduct of WW2 was that he saved American lives by allowing the USSR and Germany to bleed themselves dry before we invaded Europe.
It was FDR's deviously communist plot to use the Red Army to bleed the Nazis throughout 1943 and avoid a real second front till 1944.
One stray logic thought I am having is that if FDR was in bed with the left wing Communists and was fighting with them against something it was probably the right wing Hitler.
There is another post or two on here about the leftist Hitler I am going to link this thread to so PC can shut down that line if thinking lol.
Really I believe the step across the ends of the horse shoe is pretty small but hey, its interesting.
One stray logic thought I am having is that if FDR was in bed with the left wing Communists and was fighting with them against something it was probably the right wing Hitler.
There is another post or two on here about the leftist Hitler I am going to link this thread to so PC can shut down that line if thinking lol.
Really I believe the step across the ends of the horse shoe is pretty small but hey, its interesting.
Nazi...national socialism....based on nationalism and/or race...
Communism....international socialism.
Both Leftist.
You should take notes.
It was FDR's deviously communist plot to use the Red Army to bleed the Nazis throughout 1943 and avoid a real second front till 1944.
You are, of course, a dim-wit.
Do you understand the full implication of "dim"?
Good.
Sadly, you have a great deal of company.
If Roosevelt's plan was to use Russia in the battle against Nazi Germany, which, of course, is absolutely true....
...how do you explain the following:
The inordinate endorsement of the Soviet Union by Roosevelt.
1933 was the onset of both a) Soviet espionage's "golden age," and of
b) Roosevelt's conferring of diplomatic recognition on the Soviet Union.
1933.
WWII began in 1939.
And after the war, with Germany defeated, Roosevelt made certain to turn Eastern Europe over to Stalin.
So....still using the USSR against Nazi Germany?
Really?
So....the Marshall Plan was....what? A ploy?
Wise up.
It was FDR's deviously communist plot to use the Red Army to bleed the Nazis throughout 1943 and avoid a real second front till 1944.
You are, of course, a dim-wit.
Do you understand the full implication of "dim"?
Good.
Sadly, you have a great deal of company.
If Roosevelt's plan was to use Russia in the battle against Nazi Germany, which, of course, is absolutely true....
...how do you explain the following:
The inordinate endorsement of the Soviet Union by Roosevelt.
1933 was the onset of both a) Soviet espionage's "golden age," and of
b) Roosevelt's conferring of diplomatic recognition on the Soviet Union.
1933.
WWII began in 1939.
And after the war, with Germany defeated, Roosevelt made certain to turn Eastern Europe over to Stalin.
So....still using the USSR against Nazi Germany?
Really?
So....the Marshall Plan was....what? A ploy?
Wise up.
FDR died before the war was over.
What would you of liked Truman to have done? This is the May 1945, the Red Army is in front of you on the game board. The army which has been pushing the Germans back since '42.
I find it amazing the politicians were able to talk our public into a war in Korea a few years after.
