For Those Who Do Believe In God...

[AVG-JOE]

We all go through hard times and those responsible for those things were going against Christ's teachings. Do you think I am less blessed because I have special needs children? Do you somehow think God has forsaken me because he didn't give me "normal" children? Do you think that my breast cancer was because God was punishing me? Or my husband's cancer? Or my mom's?

Do you not remember the plagues that ravaged Europe? Go back further to when the Muslims practically conquered Europe, killing the men, raping and killing the women.

I do not for one minute believe American Indians are less blessed than Europeans....we all go through trials for whatever reason and you can bet those responsible for things like that have paid in full by now.

As for life today....I know of a specific Indian tribe that owns an Island in the sound...they decided to make some money by selling some of that land to white people as vacation property. They bought the property, built cabins, and then the Indians decide that while they owned the property, they didn't have any rights to the beach, virtually cutting the whites off from their property. The Indians now live very nicely in those cabins built by the whites. Those same indians are allowed to net fish where whites are not. They have stolen my aunts boat, across the sound and used it for themselves, no one can stop them once they get it to their island. They have farmed my aunts oyster farm and not left the shells and now there are no oysters. NONE where there was once a massive number of oysters...I thought the Indians were suppose to respect mother nature.

No I don't believe all Indians are like that, but there you go, bad things were done on both sides and are still being done, to claim that one side is blessed more than the other is just plain stupid.

All true, more likely than not - but not exactly the point of the thesis of my post that started this side track.

Whether disease, disasters and plagues are dished out by God or not is truly the subject of another thread.

My thesis revolved around the historical conquests of nations and peoples at the hands of other nations and peoples and whether or not I can trust a god who would allow that to happen - right beside the subjugation of peoples by their more powerful neighbors - much if it happening with the overt 'blessing' of Gods Church and earthly representatives.

It was the Pope who divided Latin America between the Spanish and the Portuguese - overtly because God told him to, but I think it was the kick-backs of plunder sacked by both nations. How convenient it was to be on a 'mission from God' when the conquistadors honed their bloody job skills in the 'new' world.

How should we measure the affect of God on Earth if not by the success or failure of those who pray to Him?

The only way for me to keep from going crazy is to conclude that the god described in the Christian Bible is as much a product of real life stories combined with human imagination as the gods described in the Koran and the mythology of ancient Greece and Rome.

If the only way for you to keep from going crazy is to conclude that God must be real and you have bona fide (in your mind) conversations with Him, then I'm glad that works for you.

Spirituality is a dynamic decision we all must make individually and for ourselves in the privacy of our own minds...

Why must I be wrong for you to be right? I don't feel that way about you.

-Joe

Joe: There are so many things that have gone on in past history, that were allegedly done in the name of "Christianity"......i.e. Crusades, Inquisition, .........and even your mention of the Pope dividing up the continents and peoples through his royal edict.

I say alleged, because the final judgement of Christianity lies with it's constitution, namely the bible. Christ was the totality of God Almighty, and every bit of Jesus' recorded N.T. life/actions/spoken words were God's, as Jesus said that He and the Father were One.

Many references in the N.T. soldify this fact that Christ was God-incarnate, and God's way of expressing/showing mankind who He was, is, and wil always be.

I know I'll get a lot of flack for this, but the edicts of past popes, was not what I would call biblical in many ways. The dividing of continents and people, the warring against non-Catholic nations in the name of Christ, can be found nowhere in the bible.

Now, one can look at the O.T. and see that the wandering Isaelites were promised an already occupied land called Canaan. That indeed was recorded by Moses in more than one of his authored books. Never the less, it was God who said, this land is yours, and I will allow you to take it. It seems rather different from the projection of God's nature that Jesus brings in the N.T., yet not once does Jesus repudiate the OT authors as not being inspired by God.

Even though Jesus' 33 recorded years of life with the last 3 comprising His ministry to the Jews and some gentiles too, didn' comprise taking Jerusalem by storm with His followers, but instead was of a non physical-sword approach. That sword was God's Word, from the mouth of Christ, both His Words, and those that He quoted that were from O.T. scripture and often quoted words of God back then.

Jesus, even told Pilate, that He was indeed a King, but His kingdom was not of this world. That perplexed Pilate, but did intrigue him enough that he knew he wasnt' dealing with a mere man. Even Pilates wife had warned her husband that she had, had dreadful dreams about dealing with this Man, Jesus.

Paul, in His epistles succinctly said that the Christian's or God's true followers were soldiers, but not in the vain of taking or proselytizing the human race by physical force, but by God's sword that was a metaphorical sword, that cut deep into a man's conscience even if possible to the marrow of his bones.

That sword was again God's Word, or gospel, or the redemption story of Christ. That sword told men that they were sinners from birth, and that God had a perfect redemptive plan to save them from His judgement. I.E. Christ's attoning life in their stead. Christ was called the God-Man, as He was fully human in everyway, yet was fully God in everyway. This indeed is a mystery to our finite human minds, yet God's plan required a human sacrifice that was not ritualistic, of the real thing through the shed blood of bulls, goats, and sheep, but a human's sacrifice of His life.

This sacrifice had to be sufficient in every way. Just as the Israelites of old had to sacrifice an unblemished animal for their sins, as a foreshadow of the real and complete sacrifice, Christ was that foreshadow.

Christ's life was a sinless human life, because He was God incarnate.

With God literally giving His life for us, He also clearly expressed to us who He was in nature. His nature: Loving, self-giving to the ultimate, forgiving, and filled with grace(unmerited favor towards us).
*******

I appreciate your beliefs even if I don't share them. Your Christian doctrine seems correct based on my limited knowledge of The Bible.

Pardon my bluntness, but what is your point?

If your point is to convert me to Christianity, once again please pardon my bluntness but, been there, done that, moved on. Admittedly to what, exactly I don't know; but moved on nonetheless.

If it's impossible for you, in your own mind, to be right with out me being wrong, is tolerance too much to ask?

-Joe

 

[Newby]

I don't think your aunt was trying to control what you believe or don't believe either, and I didn't say that you did control her behavior, I said that if you had your desires, you would have silenced her.

Well, I guess you're telepathic, too. So, then, tell me, since you can read my mind, how would I have silenced her?

I'm not sure how you would have silenced her, but you wanted too. You shouldn't want too, that's my point. You are the pot calling the kettle black if that is your goal. Respect her right to have her beliefs and to practice them how she chooses. I think if there were more mutual respect in the world, it would be a much better place. That's why I find so much hypocrisy in the liberal world, they pretend respect, but they're just as quick to control and silence people that don't agree with their idealogies as they claim the conservative christian is. Not to say there isn't hypocrisy in the convervative world either, but supposedly the liberal world is about letting people do what they want. I don't really see that in liberal ideaology at all.

I'm calling a spade a spade, Mr. Mountain Man. You are no different than the people that you are critisizing or ranting about in your posts. No different at all, just the flip side of the coin.

Well, all human beings are hypocritical and contradictory in some way. I don't force anyone to believe what I believe or to live or behave by what I believe. I attempt to be a good person, a wise person, a compassionate person, and an intelligent person. I try to treat everyone as I wish to be treated. If I was gay, and I was in love with someone who I perceived as my soulmate, I'd want to get married. And if I was married, I'd want to be equal to all of the other married people in my culture. I wouldn't want to be a second class citizen. I try to operate by the Golden Rule.

Can you say the same for yourself?

I've never attempted to push my beliefs on anyone. I can argue why I think they're accurate and why I hold them, but I don't expect you to feel the same way, nor would I ever use the power of the state to force you to do so.

An ex-Marine that visits gay bars and is a lib... very interesting combination...

Thank you. That's a very nice complement, saying that I'm interesting. You probably didn't know that in Denver gay bars have the best drink specials? 50 cent drafts and half off ALL liquor! And what a fun crowd! Only the lesbians get in fights, there isn't any macho posing, everyone's really nice to eachother, and all the fag hags are horny. And, I'm man enough not to feel threatened by a gay man hitting on me. I just let him know I'm straight. If he gets pushy, he gets punched. Just like a straight man getting too pushy with a woman. Most of the time, though, the homosexual men know you're straight cause you look it and they respect that because there's no chance of putting it in your butt. Its just like hitting on a hot lesbian: pointless.

Well, it's nice that you feel self assured and comfortable in that kind of a setting, but most hetero men would probably not. My point is to not look down on them b/c they would feel uncomfortable in that situation, respect their right to their opinions and feelings. It doesn't make them less of a person because they can't feel comfortable, or make you a better person because you do.

The #1 reason I'm a liberal? To protect the environment and save wilderness so that I can spend time in the mountains away from civilization, factory pollution, traffic, and the complexities of the modern world. Ever spent time miles away from the nearest road, deep in untrammeled wilderness? I get a real sense of peace. That's my church. Climbing mountains is how I worship. And I don't want my religion desecrated.

I'm very much an outdoor girl and I love the wilderness as well, whenever I look at it, I cannot imagine it all happening by chance, which is truly where my faith comes from. It's too organized, too full of purpose and order to be random. I also get a great sense of peace as well, so I can relate to your feelings there at least.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

I'm not sure how you would have silenced her, but you wanted too. You shouldn't want too, that's my point. You are the pot calling the kettle black if that is your goal. Respect her right to have her beliefs and to practice them how she chooses. I think if there were more mutual respect in the world, it would be a much better place. That's why I find so much hypocrisy in the liberal world, they pretend respect, but they're just as quick to control and silence people that don't agree with their idealogies as they claim the conservative christian is. Not to say there isn't hypocrisy in the convervative world either, but supposedly the liberal world is about letting people do what they want. I don't really see that in liberal ideaology at all.

I didn't want to silence her. I wanted her to realize that what she was doing was disrespectful to the memory of my grandmother and silence herself.

I've never attempted to push my beliefs on anyone. I can argue why I think they're accurate and why I hold them, but I don't expect you to feel the same way, nor would I ever use the power of the state to force you to do so.

That's good to know, but, then why don't you think homosexuals should have the same rights to marry as heterosexuals do? Would you vote to overturn Prop. 8 if you had the opportunity?

Well, it's nice that you feel self assured and comfortable in that kind of a setting, but most hetero men would probably not. My point is to not look down on them b/c they would feel uncomfortable in that situation, respect their right to their opinions and feelings. It doesn't make them less of a person because they can't feel comfortable, or make you a better person because you do.

I think that's assumption that most heterosexual men would feel uncomfortable in a gay bar. And I can't figure out for the life of me why straight men feel so threatened by gay men. Well, except that the gay men at Charlie's are huge, corn-fed farmboys that could easily kick the shit outta some straight guys.

I'm very much an outdoor girl and I love the wilderness as well, whenever I look at it, I cannot imagine it all happening by chance, which is truly where my faith comes from. It's too organized, too full of purpose and order to be random. I also get a great sense of peace as well, so I can relate to your feelings there at least.

Well, I think that's great that we can agree that wilderness is precious. I don't make the assumption that I know or perceive well enough the order in nature, if there is any, to come to the conclusion that God made it. Instead I see how logical Darwin's theories are, and I see how logical the science of geology is. Its readily apparent to me when I see the variations between species and individuals of the same species that evolution exists. I don't know if it was Natural Selection or Sexual Selection, but that seems logical. And I it doesn't seem that God made it appear that glaciers gouged and shaped the Rocky Mountains thousands and millions of years ago, but that He only made it appear that way. It seems like glaciers actually did shape the mountains thousands and millions of years ago. That it may have all happened randomly IS what is beautiful about it to me. That and may have I evolved, as did all human beings, to see beauty.

 

[Againsheila]

However someone deals with their grief is their business. If someone is stupid enough to pray to Satan at a funeral I attend, I will not stop them, nor will I denigrate them for doing so. It's a funeral for goodness sake. Everyone is suppose to grieve in their own way.

Of course, I don't know any Satanists so the chances of that happening is extremely rare, if it ever happens, I'll let you know how I really react. I do know some Wiccans, but they are not Satanists.

So you won't denigrate them? What about the word I bolded in your quote?

I didn't say anything to my aunt, and I didn't call her stupid. I wrote on this message board in a post that she doesn't even know about that she behaved disrespectfully and self-righteously. Hardly the same as calling her stupid.

I didn't say I wouldn't denigrate them in general, I said I wouldn't denigrate them for praying to Satan at a funeral...big difference there.

I don't have a lot of respect for someone who worships the anti-thesis to all religions.

 

[LOki]

Where did I say that I abandoned reason in favor of faith?

I don't know, why don't you tell me?

I don't believe I did.

Then I don't know why you're asking.

Can you deny that man does not fully comprehend the universe, how it came into existance, it's extent, or how it functions?

I can, but it would make no sense to do so--unless, of course I excersize some faith and then claim to fully comprehend the universe, how it came into existence, it's extent, and how it functions.

How can you be arrogant enough to believe that your human 'reasoning' is going to explain anything accurately?

Because reason is the best tool I have, and it beats the living shit out making shit up.

It explains it as far as you can understand it, period.

I make no other claims--no reasonable person does.

That proves nothing.

It proves that the rational are far more intellectually honest than the faithful.

It certainly doesn't prove that there isn't a higher power, . . .

What higher power?

. . . so to automattically dismiss the possibility of one . . .

Rational folks don't automattically dismiss the possibility of some higher power--valid logic precludes it--but faith doesn't.

. . . because you foolishly think you can even begin to understand the universe seems rather illogical.

It's not at all foolish to think you can begin to understand the universe . . . particularly if you accept the validity of the notion of "understanding."

You have evidence that a higher being had no hand in the creation of the universe? Really? Why don't you share that evidence with us then.

The lack of evidence for the existence of a creator.

Wow. That was easy.

If your sound reasoning and valid logic tells you that no human can fully understand the universe or how it works, then how can you put any credibility into a logic that cannot give you all the answers?

Because it is logiclly fase to insist that the failure to know EVERYTHING is a failure to know ANYTHING.

You are missing too many pieces in order to soundly reason or come to any logical conclusion about the creation or the functionality of the universe.

I can still give it my best shot, and since my conclusions are founded in evidence and valid logic, I can back them up objectively.

Therefore, how can you elimate any possibilities at this point?

What possibilty have I eliminated? It's not like I made up some super leprechaun that invented the universe and then eliminated, via faith, the possibilty that the universe was not created.

Again, let's hear your evidence that a higher power had absolutely no involvement in the creation of the universe.

Ok. There is no evidence that a higher power had any involvement in the creation of the universe.

I think I said that I don't know everything, I actually stated that in my post, and I don't need faith to believe that I don't know everything.

That's what I said. You did say, "I'd rather put my faith in the fact that I do not know everything, . . ."

I said it was a 'fact' that I didn't know everything, . . .

If this fact is validated by evidience and valid logic, then your belief in it is not faith.

. . . therefore that opens the doors for other possibilities, . . .

Faith insists you have certain knowledge, therefore closes such doors to the possibility that you're wrong.

. . . which is where faith comes in since those other possibilities cannot yet be proven or unproven, and most likely never will be.

Faith has nothing to do with "proof" and those whose certainties are founded in faith do not subject their beliefs to "proof."

You can say 'complete and utter nonsense' and sit on your high horse all day long, but that is exactly what he is doing.

Yes, it logically follows that if one says "'complete and utter nonsense' and sits on their high horse all day long,. . ." that is exactly what they're doing. See the law of identity.

He's placing faith in man made logic, in what man is able to comprehend as if that is the end-all/be-all to answer every question about the universe.

YOu are confusing the terms logic and faith.

Quite the arrogant one, aren't you?

Nope. Just rational.

You're welcome to your opinion, sorry that I cannot share in with you.... well actually, I'm not really sorry.

Considering how I'm winning the bet, I'm not sorry either.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

I didn't say I wouldn't denigrate them in general, I said I wouldn't denigrate them for praying to Satan at a funeral...big difference there.

What's the difference? That you wouldn't do it to their face?

I don't have a lot of respect for someone who worships the anti-thesis to all religions.

Now, Sheila! That's very hypocritical of you. And you've just completely undermined everything you've posted so far on this thread.

I don't have a lot of respect for someone's opinion when that person tells me I denigrated someone (when I didn't) and then denigrates a whole set of spiritual beliefs held by another group of people.

Wow.

 

[AVG-JOE]

All true, more likely than not - but not exactly the point of the thesis of my post that started this side track.

Whether disease, disasters and plagues are dished out by God or not is truly the subject of another thread.

My thesis revolved around the historical conquests of nations and peoples at the hands of other nations and peoples and whether or not I can trust a god who would allow that to happen - right beside the subjugation of peoples by their more powerful neighbors - much if it happening with the overt 'blessing' of Gods Church and earthly representatives.

It was the Pope who divided Latin America between the Spanish and the Portuguese - overtly because God told him to, but I think it was the kick-backs of plunder sacked by both nations. How convenient it was to be on a 'mission from God' when the conquistadors honed their bloody job skills in the 'new' world.

How should we measure the affect of God on Earth if not by the success or failure of those who pray to Him?

The only way for me to keep from going crazy is to conclude that the god described in the Christian Bible is as much a product of real life stories combined with human imagination as the gods described in the Koran and the mythology of ancient Greece and Rome.

If the only way for you to keep from going crazy is to conclude that God must be real and you have bona fide (in your mind) conversations with Him, then I'm glad that works for you.

Spirituality is a dynamic decision we all must make individually and for ourselves in the privacy of our own minds...

Why must I be wrong for you to be right? I don't feel that way about you.

-Joe

I want to clarify the bold statement I made regarding 'success' and 'failure'... By it I meant the success or failure of 'Christian Nations' and 'Christian Leaders' to adhere to the teachings of Jesus.

Although the monarchies of the European Nations of the 10th to 20th centuries and the peoples legislatures prodigiously professed faith in God through Jesus Christ, can they be convicted by history of being 'Christian Nations'?

There is a young nation whose people boldly declared it "One Nation, Under God..."

Simply on the evidence of its actions and official policies of the last 230 years, could America be convicted of being a 'Christian Nation'? Even foreign aid seems to require a certain amount of quid-pro-quo... What would Jesus think?

Will the court of history allow the fine charitable work performed every day by American individuals to be evidenced to convict the nation? Perhaps... perhaps not. Many charitable individuals do not profess to be Christian.

-Joe

 

[Mr. President]

If I decide to believe in Jesus Christ, or Mohammed, or whomever, just so I don't go to Hell and go to Heaven (or Paradise or wherever) when I die, then I don't really believe do I? So then why would I choose to believe? How do I choose to believe?

If you truly believe in Jesus Christ you dont want to just not go to hell you want a relationship with him. "I never knew you depart from me ye that work inequity" a common verse used in conjunction with teachings on people who say they are saved but really are not. You can choose to believe because of many reasons each person has their own and if I make one reason manditory it would systematically disqualify countless people from salvation so the reason you believe is yours and yours alone. You choose to believe by simply making the choice and following the laws.

What makes your religion so special that you know its the right one out of all the others out there? How do you know?

Nobody else's God came back from death.

Why do you believe?

I believe because of personal revelations and the fact that I do not believe the galaxies are simply a chain reaction to an accident.

Explain faith.

Believing without direct evidence.

You may believe you can win a fight but until the fight is over you have not won. Therefore faith is exercised.

 

[Newby]

Where did I say that I abandoned reason in favor of faith?

I don't know, why don't you tell me?

I don't believe I did.

Then I don't know why you're asking.

I can, but it would make no sense to do so--unless, of course I excersize some faith and then claim to fully comprehend the universe, how it came into existence, it's extent, and how it functions.

Because reason is the best tool I have, and it beats the living shit out making shit up.

I make no other claims--no reasonable person does.

It proves that the rational are far more intellectually honest than the faithful.

What higher power?

Rational folks don't automattically dismiss the possibility of some higher power--valid logic precludes it--but faith doesn't.

It's not at all foolish to think you can begin to understand the universe . . . particularly if you accept the validity of the notion of "understanding."



The lack of evidence for the existence of a creator.

Wow. That was easy.

Because it is logiclly fase to insist that the failure to know EVERYTHING is a failure to know ANYTHING.

I can still give it my best shot, and since my conclusions are founded in evidence and valid logic, I can back them up objectively.

What possibilty have I eliminated? It's not like I made up some super leprechaun that invented the universe and then eliminated, via faith, the possibilty that the univers was not created.

Ok. There is no evidence that a higher power had any involvement in the creation of the universe.



That's what I said. You did say, "I'd rather put my faith in the fact that I do not know everything, . . ."

If this fact is validated by evidience and valid logic, then your belief in it is not faith.

Faith insists you have certain knowledge, therefore closes such doors to the possibility that you're wrong.

Faith has nothing to do with "proof" and those whose certainies are founded in faith do subject their belifs to "proof."

Yes, it logically follows that if one says "'complete and utter nonsense' and sits on their high horse all day long,. . ." that is exactly what they're doing. See the law of identity.

YOu are confusing the terms logic and faith.

Quite the arrogant one, aren't you?

Nope. Just rational.

You're welcome to your opinion, sorry that I cannot share in with you.... well actually, I'm not really sorry.

Considering how I'm winning the bet, I'm not sorry either.

Wow, what an incredible waste of thought. You're completely missing my point, but I think you have too in order to come up with all the crap you just posted, which I didn't read most of since it just seems as though you are repeating yourself for the most part.

It's really quite simple. You cannot explain the universe, therefore, you cannot dismiss any theory of how it came to be about. It's irrational and illogical to think that you can. When you can, and you can dismiss any possibility of a higher being, then let me know. Otherwise, you lose.

 

[Againsheila]

You have to be kidding me?! You don't know about the atrocities, the massacres, the small pox in the blankets, the TRAIL OF TEARS! for God's sake! Don't you know what life can be like on some of these reservations even today?

Are you really that nationalistic and ethnocentric Sheila?

We all go through hard times and those responsible for those things were going against Christ's teachings. Do you think I am less blessed because I have special needs children? Do you somehow think God has forsaken me because he didn't give me "normal" children? Do you think that my breast cancer was because God was punishing me? Or my husband's cancer? Or my mom's?

Do you not remember the plagues that ravaged Europe? Go back further to when the Muslims practically conquered Europe, killing the men, raping and killing the women.

I do not for one minute believe American Indians are less blessed than Europeans....we all go through trials for whatever reason and you can bet those responsible for things like that have paid in full by now.

As for life today....I know of a specific Indian tribe that owns an Island in the sound...they decided to make some money by selling some of that land to white people as vacation property. They bought the property, built cabins, and then the Indians decide that while they owned the property, they didn't have any rights to the beach, virtually cutting the whites off from their property. The Indians now live very nicely in those cabins built by the whites. Those same indians are allowed to net fish where whites are not. They have stolen my aunts boat, across the sound and used it for themselves, no one can stop them once they get it to their island. They have farmed my aunts oyster farm and not left the shells and now there are no oysters. NONE where there was once a massive number of oysters...I thought the Indians were suppose to respect mother nature.

No I don't believe all Indians are like that, but there you go, bad things were done on both sides and are still being done, to claim that one side is blessed more than the other is just plain stupid.

All true, more likely than not - but not exactly the point of the thesis of my post that started this side track.

Whether disease, disasters and plagues are dished out by God or not is truly the subject of another thread.

My thesis revolved around the historical conquests of nations and peoples at the hands of other nations and peoples and whether or not I can trust a god who would allow that to happen - right beside the subjugation of peoples by their more powerful neighbors - much if it happening with the overt 'blessing' of Gods Church and earthly representatives.

It was the Pope who divided Latin America between the Spanish and the Portuguese - overtly because God told him to, but I think it was the kick-backs of plunder sacked by both nations. How convenient it was to be on a 'mission from God' when the conquistadors honed their bloody job skills in the 'new' world.

How should we measure the affect of God on Earth if not by the success or failure of those who pray to Him?

The only way for me to keep from going crazy is to conclude that the god described in the Christian Bible is as much a product of real life stories combined with human imagination as the gods described in the Koran and the mythology of ancient Greece and Rome.

If the only way for you to keep from going crazy is to conclude that God must be real and you have bona fide (in your mind) conversations with Him, then I'm glad that works for you.

Spirituality is a dynamic decision we all must make individually and for ourselves in the privacy of our own minds...

Why must I be wrong for you to be right? I don't feel that way about you.

-Joe

The atrocities done in God's name were done against Christ's teachings. I took exception to your claim that native Americans aren't blessed as much as Europeans. I think you are wrong in that because God loves everyone equally, at least according to Christ.

You must be wrong, because it's against my faith for you to be right...Christ taught us it wasn't good enough to love our neighbor's, anybody can do that, we must love our enemies as well.

You can believe as you wish, but when it comes to God's blessings, you are wrong if you think God chooses one people over another, unless of course you go by the old testament, which I don't.

 

[Newby]

Well, I think that's great that we can agree that wilderness is precious. I don't make the assumption that I know or perceive well enough the order in nature, if there is any, to come to the conclusion that God made it. Instead I see how logical Darwin's theories are, and I see how logical the science of geology is. Its readily apparent to me when I see the variations between species and individuals of the same species that evolution exists. I don't know if it was Natural Selection or Sexual Selection, but that seems logical. And I it doesn't seem that God made it appear that glaciers gouged and shaped the Rocky Mountains thousands and millions of years ago, but that He only made it appear that way. It seems like glaciers actually did shape the mountains thousands and millions of years ago. That it may have all happened randomly IS what is beautiful about it to me. That and may have I evolved, as did all human beings, to see beauty.

Ah, I think I see where we part ways when it comes to understanding the difference between science and religion. I believe what man has found through science, such as what you were talking about with the glaciers creating the mountains, etc... I don't believe in a literal interpretation of the Old Testament, the 7 days, etc... Who's to say that it didn't happen in 7 days or whatever time that equates too, and that everything that has happened since in the millions of years that have passed is also part of it? I think it's apparent that things have happened exactly as man has so far proven thru science, but I don't believe that eliminates the possibility of there being more to the story or that a higher being didn't have a hand in the creation. There is harmony and order in nature and a peace in nature, which is why I believe that it was designed, not just a random occurrence. If you limit yourself to what is stated in the Old Testament in a literal sense, I can of course see your problem. I allow myself to be open to the possibilities that we are not understanding or being too literal about what is written there. The garden of Eden story could be a parable about life's lessons, and may not have been meant to be taken literally.

 

[Mr. President]

Mountain Man are you an animal rights activist?

 

[YWN666]

You mean the way you proselytize here against religion?

To each his own. Let them pray as they may.

A ritual sacrifice I would be against, but anyone is allowed to pray.

And I do not consider praying to be proselytizing. Why do you?

Sorry, Sheila, but you're acting the apologist in this case. She prayed and preached outloud. She could've prayed in private. She could've respected my grandmother's dying wishes.

So if a Satanist started praying outloud to Satan at your grandmother's funeral, you'd be okay with that. Really? Are you just saying that or are you being sincere?

Sheila is one of those folks who sees anti-christian sentiment everywhere she looks

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Mountain Man are you an animal rights activist?

No, because I'm not active in this belief. I do think animals should have some rights. But I'm tempered in that. I really like to eat venison and elk, and MEAT! But I don't think we should wantonly kill animals or cause them to suffer.

Except cattle. I hate cattle. I'm the wannabe Adolf Hitler of cattle. I want for us to commit genocide on them and then freeze them so we can eat them later.

 

[Kalam]

Nobody else's God came back from death.

The New Testament claims that Jesus was God's son, not God himself. The trinity was invented 400 years later at the Council of Nicea.

 

[AVG-JOE]

We all go through hard times and ...<snip>...

All true, more likely than not - ...<snip>...

The atrocities done in God's name were done against Christ's teachings. I took exception to your claim that native Americans aren't blessed as much as Europeans. I think you are wrong in that because God loves everyone equally, at least according to Christ.

You must be wrong, because it's against my faith for you to be right...Christ taught us it wasn't good enough to love our neighbor's, anybody can do that, we must love our enemies as well.

You can believe as you wish, but when it comes to God's blessings, you are wrong if you think God chooses one people over another, unless of course you go by the old testament, which I don't.

Where is the proof of that in our history? Might continues to make right and 'God' doesn't seem to care how bloody his name becomes.

Is it impossible for us to disagree and tolerate each other anyway? Why must I be wrong for you to be right in your own mind?

How's that working out for us, as a species I mean? Seems to me that either God is impotent or His children care not for his words. At least based on the evidence of history

Jesus gave us a tremendous amount of information on how we should relate to our fellow humans... Can you show me the historical evidence that the teachings of Christ had any positive affect on the politics of humans? Even organizations as small as towns and churches ebb and flow with jealousy and covetousness on a regular basis - fool me once, shame on you... fool me twice, shame on me.

-Joe

 

[Shogun]

Nobody else's God came back from death.


uh, do you also believe that Washington couldn't tell a lie about a cherry tree? You'd have fit right into pharaoh era Egypt if you are this gullible.

 

[Againsheila]

All true, more likely than not - ...<snip>...

The atrocities done in God's name were done against Christ's teachings. I took exception to your claim that native Americans aren't blessed as much as Europeans. I think you are wrong in that because God loves everyone equally, at least according to Christ.

You must be wrong, because it's against my faith for you to be right...Christ taught us it wasn't good enough to love our neighbor's, anybody can do that, we must love our enemies as well.

You can believe as you wish, but when it comes to God's blessings, you are wrong if you think God chooses one people over another, unless of course you go by the old testament, which I don't.

Where is the proof of that in our history? Might continues to make right and 'God' doesn't seem to care how bloody his name becomes.

Is it impossible for us to disagree and tolerate each other anyway? Why must I be wrong for you to be right in your own mind?

How's that working out for us, as a species I mean? Seems to me that either God is impotent or His children care not for his words. At least based on the evidence of history

Jesus gave us a tremendous amount of information on how we should relate to our fellow humans... Can you show me the historical evidence that the teachings of Christ had any positive affect on the politics of humans? Even organizations as small as towns and churches ebb and flow with jealousy and covetousness on a regular basis - fool me once, shame on you... fool me twice, shame on me.

-Joe

I'm only going to take this one because, well, I'm just too tired to get into another religious war, so to speak. Not only can we tolerate each other, but we can respect each other and our respective beliefs. I can think you are wrong, but that doesn't mean I don't listen to your opinion or think less of you. Truth to tell, if we all agreed on everything, it would be a boring world. And yes, I've been wrong on occasion too, it just so happens that on this occasion, I'm right, and you are wrong.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

If you truly believe in Jesus Christ you dont want to just not go to hell you want a relationship with him. "I never knew you depart from me ye that work inequity" a common verse used in conjunction with teachings on people who say they are saved but really are not. You can choose to believe because of many reasons each person has their own and if I make one reason manditory it would systematically disqualify countless people from salvation so the reason you believe is yours and yours alone. You choose to believe by simply making the choice and following the laws.

Ah! I didn't put this question very well and I'm glad that you understood what I meant. However, I don't know if people choose to believe. I can't. To believe in the Christian religion, or any other organized religion, doesn't vibe with my life experiences. I can't suspend my inability to believe the supernatural and miraculous stories of the Bible just to try and save my soul. That was one of the points I was trying to make with this thread.

Nobody else's God came back from death.

That isn't true. There are many other religions that have a Christ-like figure prominent in the mythologies. But that's beside the point.

Okay, but how do you KNOW that your God came back from death?

I believe because of personal revelations and the fact that I do not believe the galaxies are simply a chain reaction to an accident.

I can't argue with personal revelation. For you not to believe would go against your life experiences. But, can you admit that you may have been hallucinating, or somehow mistaken in your perception of those revelations?

Did you know that there are simple Newtonian and Einsteinian equations which explain why galaxies form like they do?

Believing without direct evidence.

You may believe you can win a fight but until the fight is over you have not won. Therefore faith is exercised.

But, couldn't that also be hope? I hope that I'll win the fight? What about if I see that my enemy is a scrawny flabby guy who is clumsy? Do I have faith that I would beat him or would I trust that I would beat him because of prior experience in which I've learned that former Marines like myself are trained to kill with their barehands and scrawny little guys have little chance of beating me?

Is it faith, hope, trust, or confidence?

 

[Againsheila]

I didn't say I wouldn't denigrate them in general, I said I wouldn't denigrate them for praying to Satan at a funeral...big difference there.

What's the difference? That you wouldn't do it to their face?

That I would do it to their face, and not while they are in mourning.

I don't have a lot of respect for someone who worships the anti-thesis to all religions.

Now, Sheila! That's very hypocritical of you. And you've just completely undermined everything you've posted so far on this thread.

I don't have a lot of respect for someone's opinion when that person tells me I denigrated someone (when I didn't) and then denigrates a whole set of spiritual beliefs held by another group of people.

Wow.

You are talking about people who worship the Devil......the basis of all evil. Why would you respect that? Would you respect someone that sacrifices babies for their anti-God? Would you really want to associate with someone that believes that they are entitled to murder, torture, steal, cheat, lie, etc, to get what they want and to be rewarded by their anti-God?

Do you know any Satanists? I don't.....I don't think I want to, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't associate with them at all, would you?

What in the above beliefs, don't you feel should be denigrated?