For Those Who Do Believe In God...

Let me ask you this, if the USDA inspectors, the department of transportation, or anyone else on the list were accused of wrongdoing would you.

A. Immediately assume the allegations were false and that they did nothing wrong (no matter what the charges)
or
B. See how the allegations play out

If you selected A, that's unreasonable faith (In my opinion at least).

It depends on how much faith I have in the accusers and their accusations! Are they Republicans on a corporate payroll or Democrats in bed with a lobbyist?

:rofl: :beer: :scared1:

-Joe
*shrug*

It doesn't matter, if your answer is A no matter who makes the accusations or what they are then you have too much faith.

In all seriousness, in my humble opinion faith in others, including bureaucrats and politicians, is warranted and not 'too much' so long as they know you have faith in them and they try their hardest not to let you down.

This is why I've lost my faith in the God of The Bible - I feel like he 'let down' my Native American ancestors even as he was blessing my European ancestors; ergo He must be the God of the Europeans and not of this world.

There has to be more to the Spirit Realm. There just has to be.

-Joe
 
It depends on how much faith I have in the accusers and their accusations! Are they Republicans on a corporate payroll or Democrats in bed with a lobbyist?

:rofl: :beer: :scared1:

-Joe
*shrug*

It doesn't matter, if your answer is A no matter who makes the accusations or what they are then you have too much faith.

In all seriousness, in my humble opinion faith in others, including bureaucrats and politicians, is warranted and not 'too much' so long as they know you have faith in them and they try their hardest not to let you down.

This is why I've lost my faith in the God of The Bible - I feel like he 'let down' my Native American ancestors even as he was blessing my European ancestors; ergo He must be the God of the Europeans and not of this world.

There has to be more to the Spirit Realm. There just has to be.

-Joe

I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.
 
*shrug*

It doesn't matter, if your answer is A no matter who makes the accusations or what they are then you have too much faith.

In all seriousness, in my humble opinion faith in others, including bureaucrats and politicians, is warranted and not 'too much' so long as they know you have faith in them and they try their hardest not to let you down.

This is why I've lost my faith in the God of The Bible - I feel like he 'let down' my Native American ancestors even as he was blessing my European ancestors; ergo He must be the God of the Europeans and not of this world.

There has to be more to the Spirit Realm. There just has to be.

-Joe

I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.

Seriously?

American History 101? Trail of Tears? Life on the reservation? This land is yours as long as the sun shines? (assuming nobody finds gold) Genocide of the Native Americans to make room for the New Americans?

Any of this ring a bell?

-Joe
 
I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.

You have to be kidding me?! You don't know about the atrocities, the massacres, the small pox in the blankets, the TRAIL OF TEARS! for God's sake! Don't you know what life can be like on some of these reservations even today?

Are you really that nationalistic and ethnocentric Sheila?
 
You are not alone... There is enough evidence out there for this average Joe to be convinced that there is something to the spiritual realm. My only advice (for what it's worth) is don't look for proof. Death seems to be the great equalizer and the one dude who is claimed to have defeated it left us a pretty mixed up message regarding what's up.

I hope there is an 'after-life' and I hope I recognize you when we get there, bro'.

-Joe

My father, who is in my opinion a brilliant musician, his older brother, who holds no less than 3 masters degrees including aerospace engineering (rocket scientist), the older brother who retired from NASA (another rocket scientist), my stepmother (two masters degrees), and my youngest uncle (doctorate) are all spiritual agnostics. Not atheists, though they would call themselves anti-theists (as in against monotheism). They're all of them extremely educated and highly intelligent people. They all think, not believe, but think that there has got to be more to this life than what can be deduced with the scientific method. I don't know if its because they want, or hope that there is more, of if they know something that I don't. Probably the latter.

After starting this thread, and seeing what faith can mean to someone, I think I really do want more than just a vast, cold, dark, inhospitable Universe in which to briefly exist and then not-exist for a really long time. I've been inspired by what you, Broken Angel, and Tiger Bob have all written and I have been thinking about it a lot the last couple of days.

Now don't think I'm going to jump right into religion, because that is not only very distasteful to me but I can't compromise my principals and experiences enough to believe in the anthropomorphic monotheist gods of most of our US citizen peers, but I think I would like to undertake to understand faith more. I think its very hard for me to understand because, like having a low IQ, I have a low EQ, emotional quotient. And I think faith is an emotional kinda thing.

My girlfriend says I think too much. I think I think too much. I think I want to start feeling and stop thinking, if just for a moment.

I almost feel as though my whole life has been a battle between logic, reason, rational thinking and passionate, unreasonable, irrational feeling.

Maybe this is the next step? I had no idea that I would end up typing this after starting this thread. I thought I would be typing: Cecilie! You're a wacko! Allie, you're insane! Sheila, open your eyes!

Ha! This life...
 
I am glad to see you're open minded about this Colordomtnman!

Someone once said to me, building faith in those who don't have it is like building a house, brick by brick. You've just started your house, with your first brick. It may take years to finish the house, if it gets done at all, but you're on your way somehow!



And with the housing market the way it is today, who's to turn down a free house? ;)
 
In all seriousness, in my humble opinion faith in others, including bureaucrats and politicians, is warranted and not 'too much' so long as they know you have faith in them and they try their hardest not to let you down.

This is why I've lost my faith in the God of The Bible - I feel like he 'let down' my Native American ancestors even as he was blessing my European ancestors; ergo He must be the God of the Europeans and not of this world.

There has to be more to the Spirit Realm. There just has to be.

-Joe

I have to ask, how did he let down your N.A ancesters whilie blessing your E. ancestors?
 
In all seriousness, in my humble opinion faith in others, including bureaucrats and politicians, is warranted and not 'too much' so long as they know you have faith in them and they try their hardest not to let you down.

This is why I've lost my faith in the God of The Bible - I feel like he 'let down' my Native American ancestors even as he was blessing my European ancestors; ergo He must be the God of the Europeans and not of this world.

There has to be more to the Spirit Realm. There just has to be.

-Joe

I have to ask, how did he let down your N.A ancesters whilie blessing your E. ancestors?

Our history is fraught with examples of the conquered loosing their identity, culture and gods to the identity, culture and gods of their conquerors. The story of the Original Americans is simply one of them. Perhaps the most efficiently executed conquest in history, but not unique.

I can imagine simultaneous prayer services... each congregation begging their concept of God to help them survive the day while making opposing references to the US Cavalry...

If there is only one God, he seems to have ignored the cries of some of his children while blessing the cruelty of others. Would a Father do that?

Perhaps this particular story is more tragic to me because my blood represents the fight. I feel the well deserved pride of the New Americans in the nation they've built as well as their shame in its terrible cost. I feel the crushing despair of of a conquered people and a lost way of life as well as the pride of sheer survival against overwhelming odds.

At any rate, the concept of Humankind walking out of Africa 10,000 years ago and spreading across the globe in search of resources to exploit, developing technology and various forms and concepts of political power in the pursuit of those resources and wealth, with survival of the fittest and most powerful being the underlying constant seems to fit the historical evidence.

The physical differences, as well as the similarities, between the peoples of our planet seems also to be explained by that story of origins, at least to me.

-Joe
 
Roe vs Wade hasn't been overturned, so right there is legislation proving just the opposite of what you are talking about. Not only that, it's not a religious or 'faith' issue, it's a moral issue.

That's what religious people keep saying: Its a moral issue. Well, for me, its moral for a woman to choose. Why? Because undeveloped fetuses don't have a soul. They aren't self-aware, they aren't sentient, and its better to abort than bring unwanted children into the world. Its an overpopulated place as it is.

And the religious right has overturned Roe v. Wade in North Dakota. And threaten to overturn in nationally. My girlfriend's, female friends', and female family members' right to choose is threatened by the religious right.

Your point is moot. Roe vs Wade has not been overturned. I asked where faith is being legislated, i.e. impacting your life in a personal way and forcing you to accept beliefs that you do not hold. That was the question. Roe vs Wade has nothing to do with 'faith being legistlated' or forced on anyone, it is just the opposite of that. Even if Roe vs Wade were to be repealed on legal grounds, since the 'right to privacy' doesn't really exist in the Constitution, it would fall to the individual states to decide for themselves which is how the Constitution was originally intended to work in the first place. You also cannot contend that it would even be repealed due to religious reasons either since the ruling stands on shaky legal ground to begin with, which is why it is so vehemently protected. The majority of people in this country are against it, typically based on moral reasons, not necessarily religious ones. So, your argument isn't even an arguement until you can prove that everyone who opposes it opposes it for religious reasons, many oppose it on moral grounds that have nothing to do with religion. I did find it interesting that you profess to know whether or not a fetus has a soul. Who the hell are you to determine that, how can you even make such an arrogant statement like that? First you profess to talk about not believing in any religion and then you start talking about people having souls? Which is it?



Tax exemption? Big deal, take the tax exemption away and let the community churches get involved in politics. I see that more as a way to curtail their involvement and control them rather than doing them a favor.

But it shows a symbolic favoring by the government which may be hard for you to understand, but like you said, you're in the majority.

Again, I asked you what legislation is forcing any faith or belief on you. The fact that religious organizations and charities are not subject to taxes doesn't effect you personally or force anything on you at all.



So are black people, but a black man was just elected. It doesn't matter if they are a minority, it has to do with religious people unwilling to elect someone who is either of a different faith or who isn't religious.

:lol: I love your use of 'religious people', you show your bias so openly and blatantly I'm not sure why you even attempt to mask it to begin with. All you do is listen to your left wing blog propaganda and swallow the crap that you are told about so called 'religious people' hook, line, and sinker. You haven't a clue why people vote the way they do, whether they are religious or not. Typically I would guess it is based on who best fits their moral and political views. But, you certainly have stereotyping down to a science.



What has that to do with tolerance?

Legal holidays wasn't all I came up with. Did you read my post? That was just one item that I listed. There are many other ways that Christianity is the ruling religion of the US, a place where no religion should be officially favored.

You didn't come up with much else. Again, holidays are not legislated. If a private business wants to close its doors on Christmas, it is their right to do so. No one is forcing you to celebrate anything or do anything. No one/no law is forcing the business to close their doors, they can be open on Christmas should they choose. That's just a completely ridiculous arguement/example.

Homosexual marriage is the big one I came up with. Tell me how the Christian faith isn't legislated again?

When the definition of 'marriage' changes, let me know. I also think it has a lot more to do with social structure than it does with religion anyway. Personally, I have nothing against two gay people being able to go into a legal binding partnership should they choose. A church is free to 'marry' them in a religious ceremony should they so choose, and they should also have the right to deny them a ceremony in their church if it goes against their doctrine. Perhaps my views aren't typical, but as long as churches aren't forced by law to perform any ceremonies, I would have no problem with it. I think that you would find that many Christians felt the same way if you would go to legitimate sources to obtain information. My sister's church (Luthern) in a small rural town has as members two lesbian couples that both have children, so I really think you need to rethink your stereotypes.

What do you think about polygamy then? Should that be legalized as well? Why isn't it? Many religions actually function that way, but they still are still not legally able to marry more than one person. Is that discrimination as well? And if you don't think it should be allowed, what reasoning are you going to use to deny them should you allow gay couples to marry?



Wrong. I don't care of if I don't belong with the religious majority, Newby. Try psychoanalyzing someone else.

You have an issue with religion, Christianity in particular, there must be some underlying reason. You actually have antipathy towards it, if you didn't 'care', then you wouldn't make such a big deal out of it, cause it really isn't affecting your life in any way.

I asked you earlier how your being gay has biased you against religion and the christian religion in general, but you never addressed it.

When did you ever ask me this? I'm straight. But I would say that homosexuals are biased against religion, particularly the Christian religion, because they are considered evil by its adherents. Seems pretty simple to me!

It was a few posts back. My bad, I could have sworn that you actively participated in Amanda's 'homosexual choise' thread and had indicated that you were gay, so something in there led me to that conclusion.

I don't think that your lack of understanding about faith is because it isn't logical, I think it has more to do with not being accepted by said group and even what you perceive to be ostrasized by said group because of your homosexuality.

Once again, what the hell are you talking about? I don't want to be a Christian, I don't care if I'm accepted by Christians because I'm an agnostic, and I'm straight. I have lots of agnostic and atheist friends. My whole family is agnostic. My gay friends are agnostic. My girlfriend is a reformed Christian. We talk about this stuff. She doesn't feel like I do about Christianity, though she admits that those who adhere to religious faith exercise circular logic (Christianity is right because it is. The Bible is true because it says so. You have to have faith to believe.) or that they skirt the issue (God works in mysterious ways. Man can't know the mind of God.)

Can you explain why faith is logical, there Freud?

I know you don't want to be a Christian, so why do you keep asking questions about it? What was the point of starting this thread? You imply that it's shoved down your throat, yet you're the one that started a tread about it? If you don't care, why is it even a thought in your mind, why are you wasting your time talking about it?

You just enjoy putting people down by calling it 'illogical', perhaps because you just don't understand it? Why don't you understand it? You keep saying that it's based on emotions, but so is everything else in life, so I'm not sure what your point is. No one is saying that 'Christianity is right', it's a personal choice. For someone who is pro-abortion, I'm not sure why you can't understand that? Maybe that choice is right for those people and maybe it's not for others? What is so difficult to understand about it? You make no sense.
 
They're hypocrits, plain and simple. The very things that they gripe about in the dominant culture is the very same thing they do, but they see their behavior as altruistic somehow because they are in the minority. Somehow being in the minority makes you a better person than everyone else because you can get away with many things that the dominant culture cannot.

Did you read what I wrote. It wasn't an attack. It was a way for people to question their beliefs. What's wrong with that?!

And what is all this blabber about majority and minority? Where do you get this stuff? Where did I ever claim that I was better than anyone? Where did I write that those who believe are inferior? In fact, if you read my posts you'll see where I wrote that those who believe aren't inferior.

Is this how you take in infortmation: selectively so that all you learn really only backs-up all you want to know?

You are actively challenging anyone with belief to show the logic in their belief. You are insinuating clearly that there is no logic or rational thinking in having faith, thereby insinuating that those who do have faith are apparently not thinking rationally or logically, i.e. they are STUPID. You can say that you're not insulting all you want, but that is clearly your intension.

And if a christian came up to you and started preaching to you and asking you about your faith, you could scream that they are trying to force their views on you, so why is it okay for you to bring up the topic as 'a way for people to question their beliefs'? Why do you care? Why are you trying to force your point of view on others?
 
And that's a very telling point on his part, because his beef obviously isn't with religion in general, but specifically the christian religion. I believe that is for reasons that I stated above, but who knows, there could be many reasons.

Would you honestly vote for a Muslim or an atheist, Newby? Honestly.

If they shared my conservative views about small, non-intrusive government and upholding the Constituion, you bet your ass I would.
 
Newby I think you missed the entire original point of this thread. You are currently attacking a man who didn't insinuate that religion is without logic but rather said he was struggling with the idea of faith and religion. He asked people of EVERY religion to post information about their religion and their faith.

Colorado please don't be mad at me for the following statement.

Think of a child in the beginnings of life. Everything is new and without validation. Something that, to you, seems as sure as the sun rising the next morning to them is the subject of the question why. Someone new to faith is as innocent in that faith as a child because everything is subject to question. They need affirmation, comfort, understanding, and above all patience.

Matthew 5:11-12
God bless you when you are mocked and persecuted and lied about because you are my followers. Be happy about it! Be very glad! For a great reward awaits you in heaven. And remember, the ancient prophets were persecuted, too.

Matthew 5:38-42
You have heard the law of Moses says, 'If the eye is injured, injure the eye of the person who did it. If a tooth gets knocked out, knock out the tooth of the person who did it.' But I say, don't resist an evil person! If you are slapped on the right cheek, turn the other, too. If you are ordered to court and your shirt is taken from you, give your coat, too. If a soldier demands that you carry his gear for a mile, carry it two miles. Give to those who ask, and don't turn away from those who want to borrow.

Matthew 5: 43-48
You have heard that the law of Moses says, 'Love your neighbor' and hate your enemy. But I say, love your enemies! Pray for thsoe who persecute you! In that way you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and on the unjust, too. If you love only those who love you, what good is that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.

These are words from Jesus himself. From that famous speech on a mountain top to the masses of those who came to listen. I also firmly believe these words have sadly been lost to most in the recent days. The board here is a prime example of that. You have the faithful screaming at those who would question? I would rather take the time to try and understand, to support, to open myself up because nothing anyone here could say would take my faith from me.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92LywRWEqbM&feature=PlayList&p=F68A70E9D3906889&index=0&playnext=1]YouTube - Introduction to the Bible by Chuck Missler Part 1[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Asur3CErY1s&feature=PlayList&p=F68A70E9D3906889&index=1]YouTube - Chuck Missler - Introduction to the Bible Part 2[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67huucogRG4&feature=PlayList&p=F68A70E9D3906889&index=2]YouTube - Chuck Missler - Introduction to the Bible Part 3[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHORSB0oyr0&feature=PlayList&p=F68A70E9D3906889&index=3]YouTube - Chuck Missler - Introduction to the Bible Part 4[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYV7s6A3Kz8&feature=PlayList&p=F68A70E9D3906889&index=4]YouTube - Chuck Missler - Introduction to the Bible Part 5[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4qI38gQnAg&feature=PlayList&p=F68A70E9D3906889&index=5]YouTube - Chuck Missler - Introduction to the Bible Part 6[/ame]

For those of you who are interested in hearing about the Bible in a way that you might not have heard before I would suggest listening to teachers like the one I linked above. Missler has become a bit of a phenomenom because he is a VERY well educated human being who sees the Bible as truth and as a scientific tool.

He just happens to be my favorite teacher thus far because he reminds me of a Rabbi, searching for truth by intelligent means, not merely taking what is given to them. Did those of you who are without faith realize that? That Christian and Jewish leaders are constantly questioning? Constantly searching for truth? With new scientific advances they go back to their Bible or Torah and question every word and phrase again.

I didn't know that until recently myself. I believed that God was myth and religion was just a way to herd the mindless masses. Look at what the Catholic church did during the Middle Ages. People paid their way into heaven, there was no salvation but that which the church gave to you until a monk named Martin Luther questioned the establishment based off of what he read in the Bible and understood in the texts.
 
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And not just Christians.

Can you answer any or all of these questions for non-believers?

I can try. Dont know if youll be satisfied.


And be prepared if you answer, to defend your answer. Who knows? Maybe you'll just make a believer outta somebody.

Possibly.



How can you believe in something, but not believe in it? Im not sure thats possible.

Of course, if you don't believe then you won't go to heaven. Mostly because you have to be able to believe before you can make the changes in your life and seek the Divine changes necessary to withstand heaven.

Granted, you also have to remember, not every faith believes in the heaven/hell type scenario found in Modern Christian.



That's not something I can answer for you. I can tell you why I choose to believe. I choose to believe because I've experienced the power/joy/love/glory of God. If I denied it, I''d be lying to myself. I dont want to lie to myself or others.



Interesting question. This is one I can answer citing scripture:



I should also add the warning later on in the chapter:



Ill even sum it up for you:

You can develop faith by experimenting. Testing it out. Try having faith. Do everything that entails it. If you want to know whether God exists, pray to Him. It's what I did. I didn't know whether God existed. I believed it was possible. But I didnt know for sure. So I decided I wanted to find out and i exercised faith. I reasoned it out with myself. I dont know if God lives, but if He does and if He is all powerful He can find a way to reveal to me that He does exist.

And I told the Lord if He would reveal the truth of it to me, I would follow Him. I was ready not only to believe, but to act on the belief.



I asked God whether it was and His Spirit testified to me that it was true.

Why do you believe?

It's true. It's light. It expands the mind. It brings things clearly into view. It expands my capacity to love, to think, to become. I wouldnt be nearly the man I am today if I didnt have faith.

Explain faith.

Not really a question, but faith is a belief in things which are unseen but which are true. Faith is more than just belief, it's an active belief. It's a principle of power that provides the individual with the ability to grow, act, change, and achieve.

Through faith the worlds were created. Through Faith the sick have been healed. Through faith miracles have been wrought. I've seen it myself.

Faith can turn the most pathetic worthless life into someone with confidence, strength, and power. It can turn a sinner into a Saint.

Faith in Jesus Christ is the foundation of the Gospel. It's the principle in which all others derive.

I asked God whether it was and His Spirit testified to me that it was true.

Praying is stupid. Getting a message back is bat shyte crazy.
 
Newby I think you missed the entire original point of this thread. You are currently attacking a man who didn't insinuate that religion is without logic but rather said he was struggling with the idea of faith and religion. He asked people of EVERY religion to post information about their religion and their faith.

Colorado please don't be mad at me for the following statement.

Think of a child in the beginnings of life. Everything is new and without validation. Something that, to you, seems as sure as the sun rising the next morning to them is the subject of the question why. Someone new to faith is as innocent in that faith as a child because everything is subject to question. They need affirmation, comfort, understanding, and above all patience.

Matthew 5:11-12
God bless you when you are mocked and persecuted and lied about because you are my followers. Be happy about it! Be very glad! For a great reward awaits you in heaven. And remember, the ancient prophets were persecuted, too.

Matthew 5:38-42
You have heard the law of Moses says, 'If the eye is injured, injure the eye of the person who did it. If a tooth gets knocked out, knock out the tooth of the person who did it.' But I say, don't resist an evil person! If you are slapped on the right cheek, turn the other, too. If you are ordered to court and your shirt is taken from you, give your coat, too. If a soldier demands that you carry his gear for a mile, carry it two miles. Give to those who ask, and don't turn away from those who want to borrow.

Matthew 5: 43-48
You have heard that the law of Moses says, 'Love your neighbor' and hate your enemy. But I say, love your enemies! Pray for thsoe who persecute you! In that way you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and on the unjust, too. If you love only those who love you, what good is that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.

These are words from Jesus himself. From that famous speech on a mountain top to the masses of those who came to listen. I also firmly believe these words have sadly been lost to most in the recent days. The board here is a prime example of that. You have the faithful screaming at those who would question? I would rather take the time to try and understand, to support, to open myself up because nothing anyone here could say would take my faith from me.

YouTube - Introduction to the Bible by Chuck Missler Part 1
YouTube - Chuck Missler - Introduction to the Bible Part 2
YouTube - Chuck Missler - Introduction to the Bible Part 3
YouTube - Chuck Missler - Introduction to the Bible Part 4
YouTube - Chuck Missler - Introduction to the Bible Part 5
YouTube - Chuck Missler - Introduction to the Bible Part 6

For those of you who are interested in hearing about the Bible in a way that you might not have heard before I would suggest listening to teachers like the one I linked above. Missler has become a bit of a phenomenom because he is a VERY well educated human being who sees the Bible as truth and as a scientific tool.

He just happens to be my favorite teacher thus far because he reminds me of a Rabbi, searching for truth by intelligent means, not merely taking what is given to them. Did those of you who are without faith realize that? That Christian and Jewish leaders are constantly questioning? Constantly searching for truth? With new scientific advances they go back to their Bible or Torah and question every word and phrase again.

I didn't know that until recently myself. I believed that God was myth and religion was just a way to herd the mindless masses. Look at what the Catholic church did during the Middle Ages. People paid their way into heaven, there was no salvation but that which the church gave to you until a monk named Martin Luther questioned the establishment based off of what he read in the Bible and understood in the texts.

Well, more power to you, Angel, and you're a sweetheart for trying, but that's not what I got out of reading all of the posts that he has made in this thread at all. He has mentioned numerous times how faith is illogical and irrational, and he's not saying it without contempt in my opinion. He's also implied that Christian values are being forced down his throat via legislation which is blatantly wrong. But, I give you kudos for having a good heart. :eusa_angel:
 
I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.

You have to be kidding me?! You don't know about the atrocities, the massacres, the small pox in the blankets, the TRAIL OF TEARS! for God's sake! Don't you know what life can be like on some of these reservations even today?

Are you really that nationalistic and ethnocentric Sheila?

We all go through hard times and those responsible for those things were going against Christ's teachings. Do you think I am less blessed because I have special needs children? Do you somehow think God has forsaken me because he didn't give me "normal" children? Do you think that my breast cancer was because God was punishing me? Or my husband's cancer? Or my mom's?

Do you not remember the plagues that ravaged Europe? Go back further to when the Muslims practically conquered Europe, killing the men, raping and killing the women.

I do not for one minute believe American Indians are less blessed than Europeans....we all go through trials for whatever reason and you can bet those responsible for things like that have paid in full by now.

As for life today....I know of a specific Indian tribe that owns an Island in the sound...they decided to make some money by selling some of that land to white people as vacation property. They bought the property, built cabins, and then the Indians decide that while they owned the property, they didn't have any rights to the beach, virtually cutting the whites off from their property. The Indians now live very nicely in those cabins built by the whites. Those same indians are allowed to net fish where whites are not. They have stolen my aunts boat, across the sound and used it for themselves, no one can stop them once they get it to their island. They have farmed my aunts oyster farm and not left the shells and now there are no oysters. NONE where there was once a massive number of oysters...I thought the Indians were suppose to respect mother nature.

No I don't believe all Indians are like that, but there you go, bad things were done on both sides and are still being done, to claim that one side is blessed more than the other is just plain stupid.
 
I am glad to see you're open minded about this Colordomtnman!

Someone once said to me, building faith in those who don't have it is like building a house, brick by brick. You've just started your house, with your first brick. It may take years to finish the house, if it gets done at all, but you're on your way somehow!



And with the housing market the way it is today, who's to turn down a free house? ;)

Open minded? This same person who attacked his sister in law for saying a prayer at his mother's funeral?
 
You are actively challenging anyone with belief to show the logic in their belief. You are insinuating clearly that there is no logic or rational thinking in having faith, thereby insinuating that those who do have faith are apparently not thinking rationally or logically, i.e. they are STUPID. You can say that you're not insulting all you want, but that is clearly your intension.

And if a christian came up to you and started preaching to you and asking you about your faith, you could scream that they are trying to force their views on you, so why is it okay for you to bring up the topic as 'a way for people to question their beliefs'? Why do you care? Why are you trying to force your point of view on others?

What's wrong with challenging someone's beliefs. I posted it as a thread, if they don't want their beliefs challenged, then they don't have to answer the questions in the OP. I didn't force anyone to respond to these questions.

If you read every post of this thread, especially mine, you would have read that I wrote that although faith is irrational and illogical, it isn't inferior. I actually wrote that in an earlier post. Go back and read it.

If a Christian came up to me and started preaching to me, it would be because they are trying to convert me. If they wanted to discuss the nature of faith, that would be different. I'm not trying to make anyone give up their religions beliefs. I'm not attempting to convert anyone.

But if you think faith is logical, then show me. All you've done on this thread is criticize my posts. Why don't you write something that actually contributes to the discussion, quit criticizing, or if you don't agree with the thread then get off or go start your own.
 
Open minded? This same person who attacked his sister in law for saying a prayer at his mother's funeral?

Read the whole thread Sheila, and then tell me I'm being close-minded.

And I didn't attack my aunt, not my sister-in-law, at my grandmother's, not my mother's, funeral. I thought she demonstrated a lot of disrespect and self-righteousness in insisting on praying and telling us that our agnostic grandmother was in Heaven although my agnostic grandmother never believed in Jesus Christ or the Bible or the Christian God. I didn't say anything to her when she preached, I just thought to myself that she had a lot of gall. As my aunt knows, my grandmother's sons, my aunt's husband, and most of the family are either agnostics or atheists. We respected my grandmother's wishes not to have any religions ceremonies or religious rituals at her wake and funeral. My aunt, who believes her religion is the right one and that it therefore supercedes someone personal request, took it upon herself to ignore my grandmother's dying wishes. If this was how she dealt with her sorrow, then she could've prayed in private.

What if a Muslim or a Satanist were to openly prosyletize at a funeral for one of your family members that was held in a clearly Christian tradition? Wouldn't you consider that disrespectful?
 
Open minded? This same person who attacked his sister in law for saying a prayer at his mother's funeral?

Read the whole thread Sheila, and then tell me I'm being close-minded.

And I didn't attack my aunt, not my sister-in-law, at my grandmother's, not my mother's, funeral. I thought she demonstrated a lot of disrespect and self-righteousness in insisting on praying and telling us that our agnostic grandmother was in Heaven although my agnostic grandmother never believed in Jesus Christ or the Bible or the Christian God. I didn't say anything to her when she preached, I just thought to myself that she had a lot of gall. As my aunt knows, my grandmother's sons, my aunt's husband, and most of the family are either agnostics or atheists. We respected my grandmother's wishes not to have any religions ceremonies or religious rituals at her wake and funeral. My aunt, who believes her religion is the right one and that it therefore supercedes someone personal request, took it upon herself to ignore my grandmother's dying wishes. If this was how she dealt with her sorrow, then she could've prayed in private.

What if a Muslim or a Satanist were to openly prosyletize at a funeral for one of your family members that was held in a clearly Christian tradition? Wouldn't you consider that disrespectful?

You mean the way you proselytize here against religion?

To each his own. Let them pray as they may.

A ritual sacrifice I would be against, but anyone is allowed to pray.

And I do not consider praying to be proselytizing. Why do you?
 

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