For Those Who Do Believe In God...

[Newby]

Where is anyone's faith legislated?

Overturning Roe v Wade. Officially not recognizing homosexual marriage. Polygamy or polygany is illegal. Religious institutions receiving tax exemption. Do you know of any Muslim elected leaders? What about atheist? Do you think an atheist could ever be elected to President? Or a Muslim? We get Christmas off, but Pagan's don't get the Solstice off. There are numerous examples of the Christian-centricism of this nation and how the Christian agenda is legitimized by the government. Why do you think atheists and agnostics are so bitter (Other than they face eternal oblivion)?

Roe vs Wade hasn't been overturned, so right there is legislation proving just the opposite of what you are talking about. Not only that, it's not a religious or 'faith' issue, it's a moral issue.

Tax exemption? Big deal, take the tax exemption away and let the community churches get involved in politics. I see that more as a way to curtail their involvement and control them rather than doing them a favor.

Did you ever think that maybe there aren't any Muslim leaders or atheist leaders because they are a MINORITY in this country? How do you know there aren't any atheists in leadership positions anyway? Last I looked, checking off your religion wasn't necessary to run for office.

And if legal holidays is all you can come up with, give me a break. That's what you are bitching about? How 'tolerant' of you. Why would you be bitter about a day off? You are the one who is ruled by your emotions and deep hatred for something that you don't understand or share in. It stems from your feelings of never belonging to said group. I asked you earlier how your being gay has biased you against religion and the christian religion in general, but you never addressed it. I don't think that your lack of understanding about faith is because it isn't logical, I think it has more to do with not being accepted by said group and even what you perceive to be ostrasized by said group because of your homosexuality.

 

[Newby]

How many of our Christian and Muslim friends cling to their faith in God because they were supported by that faith in the past? My not understanding it does not make it less real for them.

-Joe

What tangible way did it support them? It might have supported them emotionally, but I wish that people would acknowledge that that is what faith is about: emotions. People believe because of one reason: they want to. And why do they want to? Because it makes them feel good. It makes them happy. And that's great.

Its not great when they claim that they're way of happiness is the right way and those who don't have that way are wrong, inferior, evil, or what-have-you.

The point of this thread was to have a person of faith either acknowledge the lack of logic, reason, and rational thought of faith and that faith is based entirely on emotion. Or to cause that to be realized by the readers of this thread.

What I learned in the process or as a result, is that faith isn't rational, but it isn't wrong, or inferior, or evil, or what-have-you either. Its just that when its forced or legislated that it becomes a source for wrongdoings.

See, the point of this thread was to attack religious people, just like the rest of your threads. You aren't interested in learning about religion, you are interested only in denigrating people who don't believe the way you do, and trying to make them come around to your point of view. If a Christian proselytized all over this board for Christianity the way you do against religion, you'd be all over them for trying to covert someone, but it's okay for you to try to convert religious people to non-religious people.

People like you are the reason this world is in so much trouble. You can't just accept that some people don't believe like you, you must do your best to make them join you.

If you were a muslim, you'd be out killing non-muslims and I believe if you were a Christian, you'd be a fundamentalist and doing the things you hate the most about people of faith. For some people, their religion is a crutch, for you, I think your agnosticism, or atheism is a crutch, it's all you have to make you feel better than someone else.

Guess what? You aren't any better than me, or any religious person based on your beliefs. You want to be better, you're going to have to go out and actually do something that's better instead of lording it over those of faith here on this message board.

They're hypocrits, plain and simple. The very things that they gripe about in the dominant culture is the very same thing they do, but they see their behavior as altruistic somehow because they are in the minority. Somehow being in the minority makes you a better person than everyone else because you can get away with many things that the dominant culture cannot.

 

[Newby]

How many of our Christian and Muslim friends cling to their faith in God because they were supported by that faith in the past? My not understanding it does not make it less real for them.

-Joe

What tangible way did it support them? It might have supported them emotionally, but I wish that people would acknowledge that that is what faith is about: emotions. People believe because of one reason: they want to. And why do they want to? Because it makes them feel good. It makes them happy. And that's great.

Its not great when they claim that they're way of happiness is the right way and those who don't have that way are wrong, inferior, evil, or what-have-you.

The point of this thread was to have a person of faith either acknowledge the lack of logic, reason, and rational thought of faith and that faith is based entirely on emotion. Or to cause that to be realized by the readers of this thread.

What I learned in the process or as a result, is that faith isn't rational, but it isn't wrong, or inferior, or evil, or what-have-you either. Its just that when its forced or legislated that it becomes a source for wrongdoings.

Emotional support is a powerful tool, don't discount it. Strong people have been easily manipulated by their emotions. Remember also that unless a government gives power to someone who thinks you're evil, the only other person who can give them power is you. Religious people can't understand why anyone thinks they're wrong - and they shouldn't have to. That's why religious tolerance is so distasteful to most religious people, and non-religious people must protect tolerance.

-Joe

Can you show me where he has demonstrated tolerance?

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Emotional support is a powerful tool, don't discount it. Strong people have been easily manipulated by their emotions. Remember also that unless a government gives power to someone who thinks you're evil, the only other person who can give them power is you. Religious people can't understand why anyone thinks they're wrong - and they shouldn't have to. That's why religious tolerance is so distasteful to most religious people, and non-religious people must protect tolerance.

-Joe

You know, lately I've been down in the dumps. I struggle with my beliefs, not so much in keeping them, but more in that living in a godless world is very tough emotionally. I've been reading about humanism and it is appealing to me. Obviously it isn't a religion so much as a code of ethics and a framework for perception. But its still not very comforting.

So, my girlfriend suggested we go to the Buddhist temple here in Denver. There are lots of different Buddhist sects and I wanted to make sure that the temple in Denver followed the non-theist type of Busddhism so that I could relate. Unfortunately that wasn't the case. So I looked up humanist organizations in the area. Unfortunately they meet and intellectualize, which is where my doldrums stem from. I did, however, find something called spiritual humanism, which doesn't hold to the supernatural, but attempts to deal with the emotional side of philosophy. Unfortunately, there aren't any places I can go on Sundays and hear a nice sermon about how humanism can improve your life in an emotional sense.

It kinda sucks. I'm a man who has always trusted reason, logic, and rational thought: just look at my sig. I've never learned to develop, for a number of reasons, my emotional side. Instead I've always intellectualized my experiences. And its caught up to me. Intelligence, truth, and logic are pretty meaningless if you feel sad.

 

[Kalam]

Do you know of any Muslim elected leaders?

There actually are two Muslim congressmen, IIRC. There are a couple more who are involved in state-level politics as well.

Most of them were elected in the past couple of years, though.

 

[Newby]

Do you know of any Muslim elected leaders?

There actually are two Muslim congressmen, IIRC. There are a couple more who are involved in state-level politics as well.

Most of them were elected in the past couple of years, though.

And that's a very telling point on his part, because his beef obviously isn't with religion in general, but specifically the christian religion. I believe that is for reasons that I stated above, but who knows, there could be many reasons.

 

[Kalam]

When you prove there is no God, then I'll accept that faith is entirely about emotions.

That's logically fallacious... appeals to ignorance don't prove that God exists. The existence of God can be proved (through logical deduction, not faith,) but it cannot be proved that the Bible is divinely inspired or that God has any of the anthropomorphic attributes that the Bible and other holy texts ascribe to him.

It's not. It's also about history and science. The story of creation is in the bible. There's more truth to support it than any other theory currently out there.

That just isn't true. The Biblical creation myth flies in the face of empirically validated scientific knowledge. There's no evidence suggesting that the account of creation in the Bible is more true or likely to have happened than any other creation myth.

But because you have faith only in man, you refuse to accept it, despite the fact that it's better supported.

Placing a great amount of faith in anything is illogical.

 

[Kalam]

Do you know of any Muslim elected leaders?

There actually are two Muslim congressmen, IIRC. There are a couple more who are involved in state-level politics as well.

Most of them were elected in the past couple of years, though.

And that's a very telling point on his part, because his beef obviously isn't with religion in general, but specifically the christian religion. I believe that is for reasons that I stated above, but who knows, there could be many reasons.

Perhaps you're right, but maybe he views religion in general unfavorably and focuses more on Christianity only because it's the predominant religion here.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Roe vs Wade hasn't been overturned, so right there is legislation proving just the opposite of what you are talking about. Not only that, it's not a religious or 'faith' issue, it's a moral issue.

That's what religious people keep saying: Its a moral issue. Well, for me, its moral for a woman to choose. Why? Because undeveloped fetuses don't have a soul. They aren't self-aware, they aren't sentient, and its better to abort than bring unwanted children into the world. Its an overpopulated place as it is.

And the religious right has overturned Roe v. Wade in North Dakota. And threaten to overturn in nationally. My girlfriend's, female friends', and female family members' right to choose is threatened by the religious right.

Tax exemption? Big deal, take the tax exemption away and let the community churches get involved in politics. I see that more as a way to curtail their involvement and control them rather than doing them a favor.

But it shows a symbolic favoring by the government which may be hard for you to understand, but like you said, you're in the majority.

Did you ever think that maybe there aren't any Muslim leaders or atheist leaders because they are a MINORITY in this country? How do you know there aren't any atheists in leadership positions anyway? Last I looked, checking off your religion wasn't necessary to run for office.

So are black people, but a black man was just elected. It doesn't matter if they are a minority, it has to do with religious people unwilling to elect someone who is either of a different faith or who isn't religious.

And if legal holidays is all you can come up with, give me a break. That's what you are bitching about? How 'tolerant' of you. Why would you be bitter about a day off?

What has that to do with tolerance?

Legal holidays wasn't all I came up with. Did you read my post? That was just one item that I listed. There are many other ways that Christianity is the ruling religion of the US, a place where no religion should be officially favored.

Homosexual marriage is the big one I came up with. Tell me how the Christian faith isn't legislated again?

You are the one who is ruled by your emotions and deep hatred for something that you don't understand or share in. It stems from your feelings of never belonging to said group.

Wrong. I don't care of if I don't belong with the religious majority, Newby. Try psychoanalyzing someone else.

I asked you earlier how your being gay has biased you against religion and the christian religion in general, but you never addressed it.

When did you ever ask me this? I'm straight. But I would say that homosexuals are biased against religion, particularly the Christian religion, because they are considered evil by its adherents. Seems pretty simple to me!

I don't think that your lack of understanding about faith is because it isn't logical, I think it has more to do with not being accepted by said group and even what you perceive to be ostrasized by said group because of your homosexuality.

Once again, what the hell are you talking about? I don't want to be a Christian, I don't care if I'm accepted by Christians because I'm an agnostic, and I'm straight. I have lots of agnostic and atheist friends. My whole family is agnostic. My gay friends are agnostic. My girlfriend is a reformed Christian. We talk about this stuff. She doesn't feel like I do about Christianity, though she admits that those who adhere to religious faith exercise circular logic (Christianity is right because it is. The Bible is true because it says so. You have to have faith to believe.) or that they skirt the issue (God works in mysterious ways. Man can't know the mind of God.)

Can you explain why faith is logical, there Freud?

 

[Coloradomtnman]

They're hypocrits, plain and simple. The very things that they gripe about in the dominant culture is the very same thing they do, but they see their behavior as altruistic somehow because they are in the minority. Somehow being in the minority makes you a better person than everyone else because you can get away with many things that the dominant culture cannot.

Did you read what I wrote. It wasn't an attack. It was a way for people to question their beliefs. What's wrong with that?!

And what is all this blabber about majority and minority? Where do you get this stuff? Where did I ever claim that I was better than anyone? Where did I write that those who believe are inferior? In fact, if you read my posts you'll see where I wrote that those who believe aren't inferior.

Is this how you take in infortmation: selectively so that all you learn really only backs-up all you want to know?

 

[Coloradomtnman]

And that's a very telling point on his part, because his beef obviously isn't with religion in general, but specifically the christian religion. I believe that is for reasons that I stated above, but who knows, there could be many reasons.

It is with all dogmatically held beliefs. Christianity just happens to be the predominant religion in this country and the religion I am most familiar with. What does that matter in this thread?

 

[Kalam]

What amuses me is how some people on message boards think they can run their gums (figuratively speaking) without reveaing anything about who they are and what type of person. Do you really think it requires mind-reading to figure out that you're an anti-religious bigot with a big hate-on? You really think you're THAT inscrutable? Hardly.

I'm not anti-religious, Dr. Freud. I'm simply skeptical of religious beliefs that are based on faith. You've done a lot to validate my belief that faith is irrational and emotional by responding to my posts with insults and other daft, emotional comments.

Oh, okay. You didn't use the word "idiot". so CLEARY you weren't being offensive and insulting. Because "delusional and senseless" are just neutral, values-free, unjudgemental observations.

If I'm trying to be offensive and insulting, I'll be blatantly offensive and insulting. That was my point.

And if you don't understand enough about my beliefs to use the word "idiot", how can you understand enough to make the judgement that I'm "delusional", anyway?

I don't recall saying anything about your beliefs specifically. Plus, I'm not being insulting by calling faith delusional. Faith is delusional, by definition, as liquid water is inherently wet.

And no, you're NOT trying to find out anything about anyone's beliefs, so please disabuse yourself of the fantasy that that's what you're doing. You don't call someone's beliefs "delusional" as a preparation to serious inquiry into those beliefs. Only someone who's TRULY delusional thinks that is a successful opening line to getting someone to discuss their beliefs. More like an opening line to getting kicked inna fork.

If you want to explain to me why I'm wrong for calling faith delusional instead of throwing out puerile insults and trying to act like a tough guy on an internet message board rolleyes, this conversation might actually go somewhere.

 

[Dr Grump]

I have no problem with non believers in general, only those that go out of their way to try and prove that I must be delusional or simple minded. That annoys me.

I concur. Don't get me wrong, I can be a complete bastard to those I call "Holy rollers" (Allie being one), who are so convinced they are right, they have to start dissing those who have a different POV. Generally, I like religious discussions with amiable folk - whether they be Christians, Jews or whatever. The only religion I have a low tolerance of is Islam, and it's not due to the literal interpretation some of the wingnuts give it, but its mysogynistic nature....

 

[Dr Grump]

When you prove there is no God, then I'll accept that faith is entirely about emotions.

It is impossible to disprove the intangible. Prove there is no Easter Bunny, Father Christmas or Tooth Fairy...

 

[del]

Touché.

some believe, some don't.
if you try to live a good life, i think that's all that matters.

I don't doubt it, but I'm interested in why others believe what they do nonetheless.

fair enough. good luck with it, unfortunately these discussions have a tendency to travel downhill. maybe this will be the exception

 

[Coloradomtnman]

When you prove there is no God, then I'll accept that faith is entirely about emotions.

It's not. It's also about history and science. The story of creation is in the bible. There's more truth to support it than any other theory currently out there. But because you have faith only in man, you refuse to accept it, despite the fact that it's better supported.

Oh well. We all have faith in something, I guess.

Can you prove there is a God, Allie? Using logic, rational thought, and reasoning?

If you think that the Bible creation story has scientific validity then you way out there.

I don't have faith in man, Allie. Human beings are bald, technologically-advanced chimps. We will cause our own extinction because even the most wise of us are little more than mature children. I've lost my faith in humankind.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

And that's a very telling point on his part, because his beef obviously isn't with religion in general, but specifically the christian religion. I believe that is for reasons that I stated above, but who knows, there could be many reasons.

Would you honestly vote for a Muslim or an atheist, Newby? Honestly.

 

[Kalam]

Can you prove there is a God, Allie? Using logic, rational thought, and reasoning?

It's possible...

The Kalam Cosmological Argument: A Summary

 

[Kalam]

some believe, some don't.
if you try to live a good life, i think that's all that matters.

I don't doubt it, but I'm interested in why others believe what they do nonetheless.

fair enough. good luck with it, unfortunately these discussions have a tendency to travel downhill. maybe this will be the exception

Meh. I doubt it. I'm not going to abandon ship quite yet, though.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Can you prove there is a God, Allie? Using logic, rational thought, and reasoning?

It's possible...

The Kalam Cosmological Argument: A Summary

Except that this assumes time outside the bounds of space. Which it is not. Spacetime is the term for one cannot exist without the other. So, one can assume, according to modern physics, that spacetime did have a beginning and what was before it? Beyond human understanding. There was nothing because there was no before it. Neither time nor space. So the Universe has not always existed, but there was nothing before it, including time.

And that's just the first premise.

But, I would be down to start a new thread about this...