For Those Who Do Believe In God...

[Kalam]

Except that this assumes time outside the bounds of space. Which it is not. Spacetime is the term for one cannot exist without the other.

Time and spacetime are irrelevant to cosmological arguments.

 

[Kalam]

But, I would be down to start a new thread about this...

I'd be there.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

But, I would be down to start a new thread about this...

I'd be there.

Alright, let's do it. But first, let me finish reading the whole thing and I'll start it when I get a chance.

 

[AllieBaba]

I have no problem with non believers in general, only those that go out of their way to try and prove that I must be delusional or simple minded. That annoys me.

I concur. Don't get me wrong, I can be a complete bastard to those I call "Holy rollers" (Allie being one), who are so convinced they are right, they have to start dissing those who have a different POV. Generally, I like religious discussions with amiable folk - whether they be Christians, Jews or whatever. The only religion I have a low tolerance of is Islam, and it's not due to the literal interpretation some of the wingnuts give it, but its mysogynistic nature....

I haven't dissed anyone based on their belief system.

I diss them when they diss Christians. As you do.

And idiot, I'm not a holy roller. Obviously you are sadly underinformed about those you hate.

 

[Kalam]

The only religion I have a low tolerance of is Islam, and it's not due to the literal interpretation some of the wingnuts give it, but its mysogynistic nature....

Even the most orthodox and literal interpretations of Islamic scripture are no more misogynistic than Christian and Jewish scriptures. Ruth comes to mind...

 

[AllieBaba]

When you prove there is no God, then I'll accept that faith is entirely about emotions.

It's not. It's also about history and science. The story of creation is in the bible. There's more truth to support it than any other theory currently out there. But because you have faith only in man, you refuse to accept it, despite the fact that it's better supported.

Oh well. We all have faith in something, I guess.

Can you prove there is a God, Allie? Using logic, rational thought, and reasoning?

If you think that the Bible creation story has scientific validity then you way out there.

I don't have faith in man, Allie. Human beings are bald, technologically-advanced chimps. We will cause our own extinction because even the most wise of us are little more than mature children. I've lost my faith in humankind.

No one can prove there is a God. If they could, there would be no point in faith, and salvation would be hollow.

Neither can anyone prove God doesn't exist, or disprove the veracity of the Bible. Much better men than you have attempted to, and have died frustrated.

We are all sad and frustrated when we separate ourselves from God, as you are experiencing.

And I'm completely sick of pseudo-intellectuals who run around claiming that only crazies believe there's anything to the Bible. You need to have a sit down with biologists, historians and biologists who recognize the Bible as the most comprehensive and authentic historical volume we have on the history of the earth.

 

[Kalam]

No one can prove there is a God.

It's been done.

If they could, there would be no point in faith,

That's my point!

and salvation would be hollow.

I disagree. One doesn't have to have faith in an imagined god to pursue a lifestyle of righteousness and moral uprightness.

 

[AllieBaba]

I'm not talking about lifestyle. I'm talking about salvation.

 

[Kalam]

I'm not talking about lifestyle. I'm talking about salvation.

Why do you want to be swept away from sin by some divine power? Spiritual salvation, IMO, must be self-induced through logical understanding and philosophical/moral enlightenment. The second part is where religious philosophies come into play.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Emotional support is a powerful tool, don't discount it. Strong people have been easily manipulated by their emotions. Remember also that unless a government gives power to someone who thinks you're evil, the only other person who can give them power is you. Religious people can't understand why anyone thinks they're wrong - and they shouldn't have to. That's why religious tolerance is so distasteful to most religious people, and non-religious people must protect tolerance.

-Joe

You know, lately I've been down in the dumps. I struggle with my beliefs, not so much in keeping them, but more in that living in a godless world is very tough emotionally. I've been reading about humanism and it is appealing to me. Obviously it isn't a religion so much as a code of ethics and a framework for perception. But its still not very comforting.

So, my girlfriend suggested we go to the Buddhist temple here in Denver. There are lots of different Buddhist sects and I wanted to make sure that the temple in Denver followed the non-theist type of Busddhism so that I could relate. Unfortunately that wasn't the case. So I looked up humanist organizations in the area. Unfortunately they meet and intellectualize, which is where my doldrums stem from. I did, however, find something called spiritual humanism, which doesn't hold to the supernatural, but attempts to deal with the emotional side of philosophy. Unfortunately, there aren't any places I can go on Sundays and hear a nice sermon about how humanism can improve your life in an emotional sense.

It kinda sucks. I'm a man who has always trusted reason, logic, and rational thought: just look at my sig. I've never learned to develop, for a number of reasons, my emotional side. Instead I've always intellectualized my experiences. And its caught up to me. Intelligence, truth, and logic are pretty meaningless if you feel sad.

You are not alone... There is enough evidence out there for this average Joe to be convinced that there is something to the spiritual realm. My only advice (for what it's worth) is don't look for proof. Death seems to be the great equalizer and the one dude who is claimed to have defeated it left us a pretty mixed up message regarding what's up.

I hope there is an 'after-life' and I hope I recognize you when we get there, bro'.

-Joe

 

[AVG-JOE]

When you prove there is no God, then I'll accept that faith is entirely about emotions.

That's logically fallacious... appeals to ignorance don't prove that God exists. The existence of God can be proved (through logical deduction, not faith,) but it cannot be proved that the Bible is divinely inspired or that God has any of the anthropomorphic attributes that the Bible and other holy texts ascribe to him.

It's not. It's also about history and science. The story of creation is in the bible. There's more truth to support it than any other theory currently out there.

That just isn't true. The Biblical creation myth flies in the face of empirically validated scientific knowledge. There's no evidence suggesting that the account of creation in the Bible is more true or likely to have happened than any other creation myth.

But because you have faith only in man, you refuse to accept it, despite the fact that it's better supported.

Placing a great amount of faith in anything is illogical.

I don't know, dude...

I place a great deal of faith in the local health department and the USDA inspectors whenever I buy a burger.

I placed a huge amount of faith in the physician who did my vasectomy when my wife quit the pill.

The Florida Department of Transportation gets some well deserved faith when I share a bridge across a bay with a couple million pounds of semi trucks and tourists.

The engineers at Boeing get some well placed faith from me, as do the maintenance crew and whoever licenses the pilots when I settle into a bad nap in an uncomfortable tin can at 15,000 feet.

Can you think of more? I can!

-Joe

 

[Father Time]

When you prove there is no God, then I'll accept that faith is entirely about emotions.

That's logically fallacious... appeals to ignorance don't prove that God exists. The existence of God can be proved (through logical deduction, not faith,) but it cannot be proved that the Bible is divinely inspired or that God has any of the anthropomorphic attributes that the Bible and other holy texts ascribe to him.


That just isn't true. The Biblical creation myth flies in the face of empirically validated scientific knowledge. There's no evidence suggesting that the account of creation in the Bible is more true or likely to have happened than any other creation myth.

But because you have faith only in man, you refuse to accept it, despite the fact that it's better supported.

Placing a great amount of faith in anything is illogical.

I don't know, dude...

I place a great deal of faith in the local health department and the USDA inspectors whenever I buy a burger.

I placed a huge amount of faith in the physician who did my vasectomy when my wife quit the pill.

The Florida Department of Transportation gets some well deserved faith when I share a bridge across a bay with a couple million pounds of semi trucks and tourists.

The engineers at Boeing get some well placed faith from me, as do the maintenance crew and whoever licenses the pilots when I settle into a bad nap in an uncomfortable tin can at 15,000 feet.

Can you think of more? I can!

-Joe

Let me ask you this, if the USDA inspectors, the department of transportation, or anyone else on the list were accused of wrongdoing would you.

A. Immediately assume the allegations were false and that they did nothing wrong (no matter what the charges)
or
B. See how the allegations play out

If you selected A, that's unreasonable faith (In my opinion at least).

 

[Kalam]

I don't know, dude...

I place a great deal of faith in the local health department and the USDA inspectors whenever I buy a burger.

I placed a huge amount of faith in the physician who did my vasectomy when my wife quit the pill.

The Florida Department of Transportation gets some well deserved faith when I share a bridge across a bay with a couple million pounds of semi trucks and tourists.

The engineers at Boeing get some well placed faith from me, as do the maintenance crew and whoever licenses the pilots when I settle into a bad nap in an uncomfortable tin can at 15,000 feet.

Can you think of more? I can!

-Joe

I think that there's a difference between reasonable expectations (ie: that the USDA will do it's best to ensure that what you're eating is, in fact, food; ) and illogical faith (ie: "everything the Bible says about God is true because I believe that it is.")

 

[AVG-JOE]

That's logically fallacious... appeals to ignorance don't prove that God exists. The existence of God can be proved (through logical deduction, not faith,) but it cannot be proved that the Bible is divinely inspired or that God has any of the anthropomorphic attributes that the Bible and other holy texts ascribe to him.


That just isn't true. The Biblical creation myth flies in the face of empirically validated scientific knowledge. There's no evidence suggesting that the account of creation in the Bible is more true or likely to have happened than any other creation myth.


Placing a great amount of faith in anything is illogical.

I don't know, dude...

I place a great deal of faith in the local health department and the USDA inspectors whenever I buy a burger.

I placed a huge amount of faith in the physician who did my vasectomy when my wife quit the pill.

The Florida Department of Transportation gets some well deserved faith when I share a bridge across a bay with a couple million pounds of semi trucks and tourists.

The engineers at Boeing get some well placed faith from me, as do the maintenance crew and whoever licenses the pilots when I settle into a bad nap in an uncomfortable tin can at 15,000 feet.

Can you think of more? I can!

-Joe

Let me ask you this, if the USDA inspectors, the department of transportation, or anyone else on the list were accused of wrongdoing would you.

A. Immediately assume the allegations were false and that they did nothing wrong (no matter what the charges)
or
B. See how the allegations play out

If you selected A, that's unreasonable faith (In my opinion at least).

It depends on how much faith I have in the accusers and their accusations! Are they Republicans on a corporate payroll or Democrats in bed with a lobbyist?



-Joe

 

[AVG-JOE]

I don't know, dude...

I place a great deal of faith in the local health department and the USDA inspectors whenever I buy a burger.

I placed a huge amount of faith in the physician who did my vasectomy when my wife quit the pill.

The Florida Department of Transportation gets some well deserved faith when I share a bridge across a bay with a couple million pounds of semi trucks and tourists.

The engineers at Boeing get some well placed faith from me, as do the maintenance crew and whoever licenses the pilots when I settle into a bad nap in an uncomfortable tin can at 15,000 feet.

Can you think of more? I can!

-Joe

I think that there's a difference between reasonable expectations (ie: that the USDA will do it's best to ensure that what you're eating is, in fact, food; ) and illogical faith (ie: "everything the Bible says about God is true because I believe that it is.")

You guys are taking this way to seriously...

Define 'faith'. Not 'religious faith' or 'faith in a deity for my eternal salvation', just 'faith'.

faith |fāθ|
noun
Complete trust or confidence in someone or something : this restores one's faith in politicians.​

-Joe

 

[Kalam]

You guys are taking this way to seriously...

The internet is serious business. Haven't you heard?

Define 'faith'. Not 'religious faith' or 'faith in a deity for my eternal salvation', just 'faith'.

faith |fāθ|
noun
Complete trust or confidence in someone or something : this restores one's faith in politicians.​

That is irrational. Nothing should ever have one's complete trust or confidence.

 

[AVG-JOE]

You guys are taking this way to seriously...

The internet is serious business. Haven't you heard?

Define 'faith'. Not 'religious faith' or 'faith in a deity for my eternal salvation', just 'faith'.

faith |fāθ|
noun
Complete trust or confidence in someone or something : this restores one's faith in politicians.​

That is irrational. Nothing should ever have one's complete trust or confidence.

Define 'trust' and 'confidence'...


Doncha just LOVE language and words?

-Joe

 

[Againsheila]

You guys are taking this way to seriously...

The internet is serious business. Haven't you heard?

Define 'faith'. Not 'religious faith' or 'faith in a deity for my eternal salvation', just 'faith'.

faith |fāθ|
noun
Complete trust or confidence in someone or something : this restores one's faith in politicians.​

That is irrational. Nothing should ever have one's complete trust or confidence.

Don't you have any family? Are you married? Friends? You poor thing if you've never had complete trust or confidence in anyone.

 

[Father Time]

I don't know, dude...

I place a great deal of faith in the local health department and the USDA inspectors whenever I buy a burger.

I placed a huge amount of faith in the physician who did my vasectomy when my wife quit the pill.

The Florida Department of Transportation gets some well deserved faith when I share a bridge across a bay with a couple million pounds of semi trucks and tourists.

The engineers at Boeing get some well placed faith from me, as do the maintenance crew and whoever licenses the pilots when I settle into a bad nap in an uncomfortable tin can at 15,000 feet.

Can you think of more? I can!

-Joe

Let me ask you this, if the USDA inspectors, the department of transportation, or anyone else on the list were accused of wrongdoing would you.

A. Immediately assume the allegations were false and that they did nothing wrong (no matter what the charges)
or
B. See how the allegations play out

If you selected A, that's unreasonable faith (In my opinion at least).

It depends on how much faith I have in the accusers and their accusations! Are they Republicans on a corporate payroll or Democrats in bed with a lobbyist?



-Joe

*shrug*

It doesn't matter, if your answer is A no matter who makes the accusations or what they are then you have too much faith.

 

[Kalam]

Don't you have any family? Are you married? Friends? You poor thing if you've never had complete trust or confidence in anyone.

Yes, I'm a bit young for that, and yes. I love 'em all to death, but it would be unwise for me to trust anybody 100%.