Freedom of Religion? Christian Artists Face Jail Time For Not Making Same-Sex Wedding Invitations

[OldLady]

Rush Limbaugh with his first wife:

Rush Limbaugh with his second wife:

Rush Limbaugh with his third wife:

Isn't that a charming photo?



Rush Limbaugh with his fourth wife:

He must be almost as unbearable in person as he is on the radio.

 

[Syriusly]

The performance of a civil marriage ceremony is a civil service.

Stop being stupid. Stop. Now.

and all the celebrant is doing is being an offical witness to it. The license itself is still issued by the government, nothing more.

So your wank off dreams of forcing Catholic Priests to perform Same sex marriages is of course,a non-started.

If a priest won't perform a civil legal same sex marriage, then he shouldn't be allowed to perform any civil marriages.
If he doesn't want to do it in his church, he can do it somewhere else. Religion is not a free ticket to ignore the law.

Baloney

Oh....the Church of Human Sacrifice is allowed to do human sacrifices? Churches are allowed to ignore fire codes?

Human sacrifice implies another separate crime.

And there is a great example of fire code being violated for religious purposes. go to any Hindu temple and they use open flames for many ceremonies, indoors. Flames of that size are usually limited to candles or fireplaces by fire code, yet they are not stopped from performing the rituals.

And I know this because my wife is Hindu, and we chose the Temple because we could do the fire part of the ceremony, which we couldn't have done in say a hotel's private rooms.

Do you think that Hindu temples are exempt from fire codes? Really?

Inspectors might decide to turn a blind eye to some violations, but churches, temples, etc are all subject to fire codes, safety codes, and building codes.

 

[martybegan]

The homophobic printers are hypocrites. They aren't following the Bible. They are using it as a shield over their hateful bigotry. They are fake Christians.

Show me a case where they turned away a divorced person from getting wedding invitations for his biblically non-compliant second marriage.

This is about hate, not religion. Pure and simple.

Jesus had a lot to say about hypocrites. He had nothing to say about gays.

Not your call to make, you judgmental pile of shit.

What's more judgmental than deciding that gays are not worthy of associating with you as equals?

Just as judgmental as a bunch of whiny anti-trumpers not wanting to associate with anyone who even considers Trump not the anti-christ.

The difference is you want to ruin people who just think differently than you.

Where are Trump supporters being denied goods and services?

This part of the discussion is about being judgmental, pay attention.

 

[martybegan]

Selling a commercial product for money is not a religious rite, period.

Therefore, this issue has NOTHING to do with the First Amendment. No one's exercising of their religion is being interfered with.

Again, the 1st amendment protects free exercise, not just rites, or churches, or clergy

Get the fucking stuffing out of your brain.

Then tell us why Warren Jeffs is in prison.

because its still illegal to propagate sex between a minor and an adult.

 

[martybegan]

and all the celebrant is doing is being an offical witness to it. The license itself is still issued by the government, nothing more.

So your wank off dreams of forcing Catholic Priests to perform Same sex marriages is of course,a non-started.

If a priest won't perform a civil legal same sex marriage, then he shouldn't be allowed to perform any civil marriages.
If he doesn't want to do it in his church, he can do it somewhere else. Religion is not a free ticket to ignore the law.

Baloney

Oh....the Church of Human Sacrifice is allowed to do human sacrifices? Churches are allowed to ignore fire codes?

Human sacrifice implies another separate crime.

And there is a great example of fire code being violated for religious purposes. go to any Hindu temple and they use open flames for many ceremonies, indoors. Flames of that size are usually limited to candles or fireplaces by fire code, yet they are not stopped from performing the rituals.

And I know this because my wife is Hindu, and we chose the Temple because we could do the fire part of the ceremony, which we couldn't have done in say a hotel's private rooms.

Do you think that Hindu temples are exempt from fire codes? Really?

Inspectors might decide to turn a blind eye to some violations, but churches, temples, etc are all subject to fire codes, safety codes, and building codes.

So why doesn't the FDNY fine them when they have a Hindu Ceremony? Plenty of fire at one of those.

 

[Syriusly]

So we are in agreement

They have sued the City of Phoenix demanding that as Christians they shouldn't have to follow a Phoenix ordinance.

They are saying their right to free exercise outweighs the local governments authority to regulate commerce in this specific case.

where in the bible does it say you cannot enter a business transaction with a gay person? And how does entering a business transaction with a gay person prohibit you from freely practicing your religion?

Hint
The answers are
nowhere and it doesn't

Nowhere, but specially supporting a gay marriage is different.

printing words on paper for a fee is not supporting anything.

They aren't being asked to simply print what someone else created. They are being asked to generate the words themselves. That is nothing short of newspeak and Stalinism .

Actually no one is asking them to do anything.

They just don't want to have to follow the same law that says that their paper supplier couldn't refuse to sell them paper because they are Christians.

 

[Syriusly]

If a priest won't perform a civil legal same sex marriage, then he shouldn't be allowed to perform any civil marriages.
If he doesn't want to do it in his church, he can do it somewhere else. Religion is not a free ticket to ignore the law.

Baloney

Oh....the Church of Human Sacrifice is allowed to do human sacrifices? Churches are allowed to ignore fire codes?

Human sacrifice implies another separate crime.

And there is a great example of fire code being violated for religious purposes. go to any Hindu temple and they use open flames for many ceremonies, indoors. Flames of that size are usually limited to candles or fireplaces by fire code, yet they are not stopped from performing the rituals.

And I know this because my wife is Hindu, and we chose the Temple because we could do the fire part of the ceremony, which we couldn't have done in say a hotel's private rooms.

Do you think that Hindu temples are exempt from fire codes? Really?

Inspectors might decide to turn a blind eye to some violations, but churches, temples, etc are all subject to fire codes, safety codes, and building codes.

So why doesn't the FDNY fine them when they have a Hindu Ceremony? Plenty of fire at one of those.

Do you know that they are violating the fire code?

 

[Syriusly]

Homosexuality is no more of a choice than heterosexuality. What turns you on is pretty much born in you. So yes, you can insist people not have sex, but really, do you think that has or ever would work, anywhere? It may as well be genetic. I've never understood why it is such skin off anyone's nose. You take it to a whole nother level with your hatred.

I don't hate anyone, I just like freedom, you on the other hand have no problem threatening someone's livelihood to force association and involuntary servitude. That child ain't freedom, in fact I think we have an amendment outlawing forced servitude, don't we?

if you do not want to abide by public accommodation and anti-discrimination laws then you are free not to open a business that serves the public

The Supreme Court disagrees with you.

You apparently have not been out much in the last 50 years.


How fascist of ya. Why do you hate freedom?

this isn't about freedom it's about bigotry and hypocrisy

These so called christians have no problem doing business with any other sinner so we know it's not the sin they are afraid of

If they really thought printing words on paper for a gay wedding makes them a participant to the sin of homosexuality then they wouldn't do business with any sinner lest they become a participant in those sins too

so it's not the sin

Bigotry and hypocrisy are part of freedom. The First Amendment gives you the right to be a bigot. Nothing in the Constitution prevents a private business from discriminating against whomever it wants for whatever reason it wants.

The Supreme Court disagrees with you.

You apparently have not been out much in the last 50 years.

 

[TheDude]

Saint Trump.

I have actually heard evangelicals claim Trump is a prophet of God. I kid you not.

If you used your brain instead of your ass I wouldn't be forced to embarrass you. Try to control your emotions dude:

 

[OKTexas]

What you're missing is all discrimination laws, except for faghadist, are based on genetics and not personal preferences or conduct. There is nothing in the Constitution as amended that protects personal preferences or conduct form discrimination. Just because a bunch of fags and feel good regressives think it's a good idea to invent some kind of protection doesn't make it constitutional or right. BTW there are protections in the Constitution about involuntary servitude.

Homosexuality is no more of a choice than heterosexuality. What turns you on is pretty much born in you. So yes, you can insist people not have sex, but really, do you think that has or ever would work, anywhere? It may as well be genetic. I've never understood why it is such skin off anyone's nose. You take it to a whole nother level with your hatred.

I don't hate anyone, I just like freedom, you on the other hand have no problem threatening someone's livelihood to force association and involuntary servitude. That child ain't freedom, in fact I think we have an amendment outlawing forced servitude, don't we?

if you do not want to abide by public accommodation and anti-discrimination laws then you are free not to open a business that serves the public

How fascist of ya. Why do you hate freedom?

this isn't about freedom it's about bigotry and hypocrisy

These so called christians have no problem doing business with any other sinner so we know it's not the sin they are afraid of

If they really thought printing words on paper for a gay wedding makes them a participant to the sin of homosexuality then they wouldn't do business with any sinner lest they become a participant in those sins too

so it's not the sin

You're just not paying attention are you? It might be distasteful, but it's not illegal or unconstitutional, for an individual to be a bigot. Trying to deny anyone who performs a nonessential service a livelihood for something that is neither illegal or unconstitutional in everyday living is WRONG. You are free to do any damn thing you want, and so should I. People invest. develop skills and open a business to be their own boss, as long as they aren't doing something criminal that physically harms or defrauds their customers, the government should stay the hell out of the business. Then the market will decide if they are successful or not. That sir is freedom.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Is jihad protected by the first Amendment?

For sake of argument, use this definition of jihad:

(among Muslims) a war or struggle against unbelievers.

I suspect that you know the answer to that. None of them will pipe up because it means they will have to acknowledge that their case is shaky and also partisan.

If the Gay bakers win then my friends can crack on with setting up Sharia courts. The law of unintended consequences slaps them on the arse again.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Selling a commercial product for money is not a religious rite, period.

Therefore, this issue has NOTHING to do with the First Amendment. No one's exercising of their religion is being interfered with.

Again, the 1st amendment protects free exercise, not just rites, or churches, or clergy

Get the fucking stuffing out of your brain.

Then tell us why Warren Jeffs is in prison.

because its still illegal to propagate sex between a minor and an adult.

So you finally acknowledge that religion cannot be used as a free ticket to break the law.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

Now the discussion is about religious based laws.

 

[bodecea]

Under Constitutional equality, I should be able to marry my sister. We're consenting adults and stay out of our bedroom fuckers.

Under Constitutional equality, men should be allowed to marry children. My constitutional rights are violated because I can't marry my aunt.

Under Constitutional equality, young children must be allowed drive cars, never mind vote.

Under Constitutional equality, my rights are violated when my California vote doesn't equal your Alaskan vote. Oh look, our founding fathers fucked up with the 12th amendment.

Love liberal interpretations. I can pull all kinds of shit out of my ass EQUAL to men were intended to marry, have kids, and use the women's bathroom.

So...incest and pedophilia AREN'T illegal in your "Constitutional equality" world?

 

[OKTexas]

Ordained Ministers that do not charge for their wedding services can refuse to perform weddings to any couple they choose. If they start charging for their services then they fall under public accommodation laws because money is being exchanged.

The same holds true with services or products being supplied to the public.

exactly right

I for one don't know why the state recognizes a marriage performed in a church as legal anyway.
Why are we vesting powers of the state in clergymen at all?

Damn you're a historical neanderthal, when this country was founded the government wasn't involved with marriage, it was solely in the purview of the clergy.

 

[TheDude]

Under Constitutional equality, I should be able to marry my sister. We're consenting adults and stay out of our bedroom fuckers.

Under Constitutional equality, men should be allowed to marry children. My constitutional rights are violated because I can't marry my aunt.

Under Constitutional equality, young children must be allowed drive cars, never mind vote.

Under Constitutional equality, my rights are violated when my California vote doesn't equal your Alaskan vote. Oh look, our founding fathers fucked up with the 12th amendment.

Love liberal interpretations. I can pull all kinds of shit out of my ass EQUAL to men were intended to marry, have kids, and use the women's bathroom.

So...incest and pedophilia AREN'T illegal in your "Constitutional equality" world?

Not mine, YOURS

 

[OldLady]

Ordained Ministers that do not charge for their wedding services can refuse to perform weddings to any couple they choose. If they start charging for their services then they fall under public accommodation laws because money is being exchanged.

The same holds true with services or products being supplied to the public.

exactly right

I for one don't know why the state recognizes a marriage performed in a church as legal anyway.
Why are we vesting powers of the state in clergymen at all?

Damn you're a historical neanderthal, when this country was founded the government wasn't involved with marriage, it was solely in the purview of the clergy.

? No. The banns -- the notice of the marriage -- had to be posted in a public place for a certain number of weeks so if anyone knew why these two people shouldn't marry, they could come forward. The Town Clerk furnished the license. Ministers weren't always available, and they used the Justice of the Peace back then, too. The government, in this country, at least, has always had its nose in the marriage contract.

 

[OKTexas]

The f

State governments can regulate commerce in the States, based on their laws and constitution, and most of these laws/cases are State issues.

And I am not looking to give them more power, I am looking to reign in existing power to a certain, acceptable (to me) level.

Yes, but they can't violate the Bill of Rights when they do it. Seriously, where do you get this thing that commerce forfeits Constitutional rights?

States cannot restrict my right to life, liberty or property without due process. PA laws clearly violate both my liberty and property, State regulation of commerce can't do that

Progressives think PA laws override 1st amendment protections without question. My view is that they have to abide by the rules that judge any right, that a compelling government interest is present, and that the government has to adjudicate the situation using the least intrusive means possible.

I don't give a shit about government's interest, I care about the people's interest. Government forcing someone to bake a cake, design a card or photograph a wedding is a clear violation of the fifth amendment. Government has no legitimate power to force one citizen to serve another. That is what despots do

Fifth?

And no one is forcing anyone to serve anyone. If those people don't want to comply with public accommodation laws they are not forced to open a business that serves the public

Um, I've repeatedly quoted the fifth, the right to due process? Are you serious?

So you consider it a legitimate power of government to say if you want to go into business then you will do what government compels you to do, that is liberty. You have the option of not going into business.

I can't take you seriously now

Actually the 5th and 14th deal with due process.

 

[OKTexas]

And again, the law isn't supposed to be used for you to get your jollies fucking over people you don't like.

The law is supposed to reflect the will of the people, within the boundaries of the Constitution. Who does or doesn't get jollies out of it is irrelevant.

Bullshit. You get off on it, you are just to gutless to admit it.

So the law ISN"T supposed to reflect the will of the people, within the boundaries of the Constitution?

Yes it is, but that isn't the argument here. the argument is if PA laws get to ignore the 1st amendment entirely (as you are claiming, even if you don't realize it)

No they don't because running a business isn't a religious act, it's a commercial act carried out by people who may or not be of a particular religion.

There's a big difference.

Yet the courts have said a T-shirt printer could not be compelled to print a message on a shirt they found objectionable. What's the difference between the T-shirt pinter and this one?

 

[OKTexas]

The homophobic printers are hypocrites. They aren't following the Bible. They are using it as a shield over their hateful bigotry. They are fake Christians.

Show me a case where they turned away a divorced person from getting wedding invitations for his biblically non-compliant second marriage.

This is about hate, not religion. Pure and simple.

Jesus had a lot to say about hypocrites. He had nothing to say about gays.

Not your call to make, you judgmental pile of shit.

What's more judgmental than deciding that gays are not worthy of associating with you as equals?

Just as judgmental as a bunch of whiny anti-trumpers not wanting to associate with anyone who even considers Trump not the anti-christ.

The difference is you want to ruin people who just think differently than you.

Where are Trump supporters being denied goods and services?

Just recently a starbucks employee refused to write Trump on a cup.