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That was before we demanded government get all up in our marriages and bestow all kinds of government cash and prizes on us for getting married.? No. The banns -- the notice of the marriage -- had to be posted in a public place for a certain number of weeks so if anyone knew why these two people shouldn't marry, they could come forward. The Town Clerk furnished the license. Ministers weren't always available, and they used the Justice of the Peace back then, too. The government, in this country, at least, has always had its nose in the marriage contract.exactly rightOrdained Ministers that do not charge for their wedding services can refuse to perform weddings to any couple they choose. If they start charging for their services then they fall under public accommodation laws because money is being exchanged.
The same holds true with services or products being supplied to the public.
I for one don't know why the state recognizes a marriage performed in a church as legal anyway.
Why are we vesting powers of the state in clergymen at all?
Damn you're a historical neanderthal, when this country was founded the government wasn't involved with marriage, it was solely in the purview of the clergy.
Really, people got married in areas where there were no governments, most just started living together and waited for a circuit preacher to come around to perform the ceremony. Most were just recorded in the family bible.
The law is supposed to reflect the will of the people, within the boundaries of the Constitution. Who does or doesn't get jollies out of it is irrelevant.
Bullshit. You get off on it, you are just to gutless to admit it.
So the law ISN"T supposed to reflect the will of the people, within the boundaries of the Constitution?
Yes it is, but that isn't the argument here. the argument is if PA laws get to ignore the 1st amendment entirely (as you are claiming, even if you don't realize it)
No they don't because running a business isn't a religious act, it's a commercial act carried out by people who may or not be of a particular religion.
There's a big difference.
Yet the courts have said a T-shirt printer could not be compelled to print a message on a shirt they found objectionable. What's the difference between the T-shirt pinter and this one?
So the tenets of their faith are suspicion, fear, hatred and untolerance. And they are Christians ya say? What dogmatic, weird and anti-Christian principles type of church is that?Were these folks prevented from attending worship services? Was their church closed? How were they prevented from practicing their religion, exactly?'Two Arizona Christian artists face the possibility of being jailed, in addition to being fined, after they recently refused to make invitations for a same-sex wedding.'
Ummmm...did we go to bed and suddenly wake up in Communist Russia, China, or North Korea?
Liberals have been pushing the GLBT Lifestyle on everyone as 'the norm', except it ISN'T to many Americans, especially those who have a religious objection to it. Those religious beliefs - and the practice of them - are actually PROTECTED by the Constitution:
"The Free Exercise Clause is the accompanying clause with the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. The Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause together read:
“ Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
What do the Liberal / LGBT 'Nazi's' not understand about that?!
Liberals can argue all day long about how it's discrimination, but it's not. It is one's personal religious belief, part of their faith, and THAT, again, is protected by the Constitution.
So Liberals are going to demand everyone else comply with their demands, regardless of what the Constitution says, and if the individuals refuse they are going to judicially punish them?!
This is an example of WHY we have the Constitution, why we have the Bill of Rights - to protect us from tyranny that encroaches on our personal rights!
I am NOT comparing these, but let's say in the future somehow liberals ram a law onto the books allowing Pedophilia, Bestiality, or Necrophilia? If Christians refuse to participate in any part of those, even if it has been approved by the government, will the government move to punish Christians - to jail Christians - for exercising their Constitutional Right to exercise their religion?
(-- Pretty ironic since this nation only exists because of a people who left England so they could freely exercise their religion without Government oppression, condemnation, and control.)
I understand laws against discrimination - I do, and I do support them....but I draw the line here. The Constitution clearly states, again:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
The government, however, is encroaching more and more on our rights while justifying doing so more and more. Doing so, allowing it to be done, is the start down a very dangerous road (IMO).
TOPIC:
Christian artists face jail time for refusing to make same-sex wedding invitations
SUPPORTING:
Free Exercise Clause - Wikipedia
Freedom of religion isn't just about going to church, or being able to go to church.
Not your call to make, you judgmental pile of shit.
What's more judgmental than deciding that gays are not worthy of associating with you as equals?
Just as judgmental as a bunch of whiny anti-trumpers not wanting to associate with anyone who even considers Trump not the anti-christ.
The difference is you want to ruin people who just think differently than you.
Where are Trump supporters being denied goods and services?
Just recently a starbucks employee refused to write Trump on a cup.
And if the company offers some sort of weird policy for writing things on cups then the employee probably discriminated against that customer.
So?
The employees were wrong to refuse him, just like the guys selling wedding invitations.What's more judgmental than deciding that gays are not worthy of associating with you as equals?
Just as judgmental as a bunch of whiny anti-trumpers not wanting to associate with anyone who even considers Trump not the anti-christ.
The difference is you want to ruin people who just think differently than you.
Where are Trump supporters being denied goods and services?
Just recently a starbucks employee refused to write Trump on a cup.
And if the company offers some sort of weird policy for writing things on cups then the employee probably discriminated against that customer.
So?
He checked with the company, he was told he could have any name he wanted on his cup, the employees refused and called the cops when he insisted, even after he informed them he had already spoken to the company.
Bullshit. You get off on it, you are just to gutless to admit it.
So the law ISN"T supposed to reflect the will of the people, within the boundaries of the Constitution?
Yes it is, but that isn't the argument here. the argument is if PA laws get to ignore the 1st amendment entirely (as you are claiming, even if you don't realize it)
No they don't because running a business isn't a religious act, it's a commercial act carried out by people who may or not be of a particular religion.
There's a big difference.
Yet the courts have said a T-shirt printer could not be compelled to print a message on a shirt they found objectionable. What's the difference between the T-shirt pinter and this one?
What you find 'objectionable' is not universally protected by law. Black people sitting at your lunch counter might be something you find 'objectionable' but you won't get far in court making that argument.
The employees were wrong to refuse him, just like the guys selling wedding invitations.Just as judgmental as a bunch of whiny anti-trumpers not wanting to associate with anyone who even considers Trump not the anti-christ.
The difference is you want to ruin people who just think differently than you.
Where are Trump supporters being denied goods and services?
Just recently a starbucks employee refused to write Trump on a cup.
And if the company offers some sort of weird policy for writing things on cups then the employee probably discriminated against that customer.
So?
He checked with the company, he was told he could have any name he wanted on his cup, the employees refused and called the cops when he insisted, even after he informed them he had already spoken to the company.
That was before we demanded government get all up in our marriages and bestow all kinds of government cash and prizes on us for getting married.? No. The banns -- the notice of the marriage -- had to be posted in a public place for a certain number of weeks so if anyone knew why these two people shouldn't marry, they could come forward. The Town Clerk furnished the license. Ministers weren't always available, and they used the Justice of the Peace back then, too. The government, in this country, at least, has always had its nose in the marriage contract.exactly rightOrdained Ministers that do not charge for their wedding services can refuse to perform weddings to any couple they choose. If they start charging for their services then they fall under public accommodation laws because money is being exchanged.
The same holds true with services or products being supplied to the public.
I for one don't know why the state recognizes a marriage performed in a church as legal anyway.
Why are we vesting powers of the state in clergymen at all?
Damn you're a historical neanderthal, when this country was founded the government wasn't involved with marriage, it was solely in the purview of the clergy.
Really, people got married in areas where there were no governments, most just started living together and waited for a circuit preacher to come around to perform the ceremony. Most were just recorded in the family bible.
That's really what the same sex marriage issue is about. Those who have been getting all those government gifts under the protection of the law don't want the homos to have equal protection and receive the exact same gifts. They think they are special.
Every time you try to speak about someone's religion and declare what they believe, according to you, you prove how truly ignorant you are.So the tenets of their faith are suspicion, fear, hatred and untolerance. And they are Christians ya say? What dogmatic, weird and anti-Christian principles type of church is that?Were these folks prevented from attending worship services? Was their church closed? How were they prevented from practicing their religion, exactly?'Two Arizona Christian artists face the possibility of being jailed, in addition to being fined, after they recently refused to make invitations for a same-sex wedding.'
Ummmm...did we go to bed and suddenly wake up in Communist Russia, China, or North Korea?
Liberals have been pushing the GLBT Lifestyle on everyone as 'the norm', except it ISN'T to many Americans, especially those who have a religious objection to it. Those religious beliefs - and the practice of them - are actually PROTECTED by the Constitution:
"The Free Exercise Clause is the accompanying clause with the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. The Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause together read:
“ Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
What do the Liberal / LGBT 'Nazi's' not understand about that?!
Liberals can argue all day long about how it's discrimination, but it's not. It is one's personal religious belief, part of their faith, and THAT, again, is protected by the Constitution.
So Liberals are going to demand everyone else comply with their demands, regardless of what the Constitution says, and if the individuals refuse they are going to judicially punish them?!
This is an example of WHY we have the Constitution, why we have the Bill of Rights - to protect us from tyranny that encroaches on our personal rights!
I am NOT comparing these, but let's say in the future somehow liberals ram a law onto the books allowing Pedophilia, Bestiality, or Necrophilia? If Christians refuse to participate in any part of those, even if it has been approved by the government, will the government move to punish Christians - to jail Christians - for exercising their Constitutional Right to exercise their religion?
(-- Pretty ironic since this nation only exists because of a people who left England so they could freely exercise their religion without Government oppression, condemnation, and control.)
I understand laws against discrimination - I do, and I do support them....but I draw the line here. The Constitution clearly states, again:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
The government, however, is encroaching more and more on our rights while justifying doing so more and more. Doing so, allowing it to be done, is the start down a very dangerous road (IMO).
TOPIC:
Christian artists face jail time for refusing to make same-sex wedding invitations
SUPPORTING:
Free Exercise Clause - Wikipedia
Freedom of religion isn't just about going to church, or being able to go to church.
Face it. These people are using Christianity as a baseball bat to enforce their hatred. What a perversion of what people here in Sane World understand as a beautiful, loving, forgiving and inclusive faith.
I'm not the one defending the guise of Christianity as a means to be intolerant, unforgiving, hateful and fearful.Every time you try to speak about someone's religion and declare what they believe, according to you, you prove how truly ignorant you are.So the tenets of their faith are suspicion, fear, hatred and untolerance. And they are Christians ya say? What dogmatic, weird and anti-Christian principles type of church is that?Were these folks prevented from attending worship services? Was their church closed? How were they prevented from practicing their religion, exactly?'Two Arizona Christian artists face the possibility of being jailed, in addition to being fined, after they recently refused to make invitations for a same-sex wedding.'
Ummmm...did we go to bed and suddenly wake up in Communist Russia, China, or North Korea?
Liberals have been pushing the GLBT Lifestyle on everyone as 'the norm', except it ISN'T to many Americans, especially those who have a religious objection to it. Those religious beliefs - and the practice of them - are actually PROTECTED by the Constitution:
"The Free Exercise Clause is the accompanying clause with the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. The Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause together read:
“ Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
What do the Liberal / LGBT 'Nazi's' not understand about that?!
Liberals can argue all day long about how it's discrimination, but it's not. It is one's personal religious belief, part of their faith, and THAT, again, is protected by the Constitution.
So Liberals are going to demand everyone else comply with their demands, regardless of what the Constitution says, and if the individuals refuse they are going to judicially punish them?!
This is an example of WHY we have the Constitution, why we have the Bill of Rights - to protect us from tyranny that encroaches on our personal rights!
I am NOT comparing these, but let's say in the future somehow liberals ram a law onto the books allowing Pedophilia, Bestiality, or Necrophilia? If Christians refuse to participate in any part of those, even if it has been approved by the government, will the government move to punish Christians - to jail Christians - for exercising their Constitutional Right to exercise their religion?
(-- Pretty ironic since this nation only exists because of a people who left England so they could freely exercise their religion without Government oppression, condemnation, and control.)
I understand laws against discrimination - I do, and I do support them....but I draw the line here. The Constitution clearly states, again:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
The government, however, is encroaching more and more on our rights while justifying doing so more and more. Doing so, allowing it to be done, is the start down a very dangerous road (IMO).
TOPIC:
Christian artists face jail time for refusing to make same-sex wedding invitations
SUPPORTING:
Free Exercise Clause - Wikipedia
Freedom of religion isn't just about going to church, or being able to go to church.
Face it. These people are using Christianity as a baseball bat to enforce their hatred. What a perversion of what people here in Sane World understand as a beautiful, loving, forgiving and inclusive faith.
So...incest and pedophilia AREN'T illegal in your "Constitutional equality" world?Under Constitutional equality, I should be able to marry my sister. We're consenting adults and stay out of our bedroom fuckers.
Under Constitutional equality, men should be allowed to marry children. My constitutional rights are violated because I can't marry my aunt.
Under Constitutional equality, young children must be allowed drive cars, never mind vote.
Under Constitutional equality, my rights are violated when my California vote doesn't equal your Alaskan vote. Oh look, our founding fathers fucked up with the 12th amendment.
Love liberal interpretations. I can pull all kinds of shit out of my ass EQUAL to men were intended to marry, have kids, and use the women's bathroom.
Not mine, YOURS
Why do you think incest and pedophilia should be legal in his world?
No they don't because running a business isn't a religious act, it's a commercial act carried out by people who may or not be of a particular religion.
There's a big difference.
Yet the courts have said a T-shirt printer could not be compelled to print a message on a shirt they found objectionable. What's the difference between the T-shirt pinter and this one?
Well the big difference is that the court in Arizona came to a different conclusion than the court in Kennedy.
And that the business in Arizona is subject to the court in Arizona, not Kentucky.
The written word is speech, and no government has the authority to compel speech. That's why I hope this case goes to SCOTUS, It's time to get it settled.
It's not the printer's speech it's the speech of the paying customer. The customer tells the printer what to print then pays him there is no compulsion
It would be compelling speech if you told some guy on the street to say what you told him under threat of violence. This is not that
Of course it is, telling some to write or print something they find objectionable under threat of fines or jail is compelling speech. To use your example the written press wouldn't be protected speech.
Tell me how refusing service to one of God's children honors God. Tell me how the basic tenets of Christianity; forgiveness, love, service and tolerance, can be so easily abandoned to serve a viler prurpose; judgmentalism, suspicion, unnecessary humiliation and hatred?No, you're just the idiot falsely accusing others of doing so.I'm not the one defending the guise of Christianity as a means to be intolerant, unforgiving, hateful and fearful.
And the employee was wrongWhat's more judgmental than deciding that gays are not worthy of associating with you as equals?
Just as judgmental as a bunch of whiny anti-trumpers not wanting to associate with anyone who even considers Trump not the anti-christ.
The difference is you want to ruin people who just think differently than you.
Where are Trump supporters being denied goods and services?
Just recently a starbucks employee refused to write Trump on a cup.
And if the company offers some sort of weird policy for writing things on cups then the employee probably discriminated against that customer.
So?
He checked with the company, he was told he could have any name he wanted on his cup, the employees refused and called the cops when he insisted, even after he informed them he had already spoken to the company.
And the employee was wrongJust as judgmental as a bunch of whiny anti-trumpers not wanting to associate with anyone who even considers Trump not the anti-christ.
The difference is you want to ruin people who just think differently than you.
Where are Trump supporters being denied goods and services?
Just recently a starbucks employee refused to write Trump on a cup.
And if the company offers some sort of weird policy for writing things on cups then the employee probably discriminated against that customer.
So?
He checked with the company, he was told he could have any name he wanted on his cup, the employees refused and called the cops when he insisted, even after he informed them he had already spoken to the company.
So...incest and pedophilia AREN'T illegal in your "Constitutional equality" world?Under Constitutional equality, I should be able to marry my sister. We're consenting adults and stay out of our bedroom fuckers.
Under Constitutional equality, men should be allowed to marry children. My constitutional rights are violated because I can't marry my aunt.
Under Constitutional equality, young children must be allowed drive cars, never mind vote.
Under Constitutional equality, my rights are violated when my California vote doesn't equal your Alaskan vote. Oh look, our founding fathers fucked up with the 12th amendment.
Love liberal interpretations. I can pull all kinds of shit out of my ass EQUAL to men were intended to marry, have kids, and use the women's bathroom.
Not mine, YOURS
Why do you think incest and pedophilia should be legal in his world?
According to the arguments douche bags like you used to justify gay marriage, incest should be legal so long as both participants are over 18.
And the employee was still wrong.And the employee was wrongWhere are Trump supporters being denied goods and services?
Just recently a starbucks employee refused to write Trump on a cup.
And if the company offers some sort of weird policy for writing things on cups then the employee probably discriminated against that customer.
So?
He checked with the company, he was told he could have any name he wanted on his cup, the employees refused and called the cops when he insisted, even after he informed them he had already spoken to the company.
Agreed, I just gave it as an example of people discriminating against Trump supporters in response to a question asked in the thread.
So...incest and pedophilia AREN'T illegal in your "Constitutional equality" world?Under Constitutional equality, I should be able to marry my sister. We're consenting adults and stay out of our bedroom fuckers.
Under Constitutional equality, men should be allowed to marry children. My constitutional rights are violated because I can't marry my aunt.
Under Constitutional equality, young children must be allowed drive cars, never mind vote.
Under Constitutional equality, my rights are violated when my California vote doesn't equal your Alaskan vote. Oh look, our founding fathers fucked up with the 12th amendment.
Love liberal interpretations. I can pull all kinds of shit out of my ass EQUAL to men were intended to marry, have kids, and use the women's bathroom.
Not mine, YOURS
Why do you think incest and pedophilia should be legal in his world?
According to the arguments douche bags like you used to justify gay marriage, incest should be legal so long as both participants are over 18.
Douchebags like you sure do want to legalize incest over 18 years old.
So...incest and pedophilia AREN'T illegal in your "Constitutional equality" world?
Not mine, YOURS
Why do you think incest and pedophilia should be legal in his world?
According to the arguments douche bags like you used to justify gay marriage, incest should be legal so long as both participants are over 18.
Douchebags like you sure do want to legalize incest over 18 years old.
No I don't, douche bag. I want marriage to be used for its intended purpose: raising healthy, well adjusted children.
