Gingrich: Palestinians an ‘invented’ people

[konradv]

Don't be ridiculous. Jordan has less of a "national" history than Palestine. The mandates were created at the same time and while Palestine had periods of national identity, Jordan was a totally "de novo" state.

What the fuck is "periods of national identity" supposed to mean? When was it an actual nation that could exclude the militaries of other nations from crossing it's borders?

Palestine had independent states in ancient times and during the Crusades.

 

[Cecilie1200]

"Israeli historian Tom Segev,... said the argument about the existence of the Palestinian people is a thing of the past.

"There is no intelligent person today who argues about the existence of the Palestinian people," Segev said.

"Nations are created gradually. I don't think the Palestinians are less of a nation than the Americans," he added.
Estrin reported from Jerusalem.


The Associated Press: Gingrich stands by "invented" people remark

When did "invented" become synonymous with "non-existent", and where was I when that revision of the dictionary came out?

probably being a miserable bitch somewhere

actually, definitely being a miserable bitch somewhere

I am not a miserable bitch in any sense of the word. I am both happy as, and extremely good at being, a bitch.

Point still stands. "Invented" does not mean "non-existent".

 

[Vel]

The state of Palestine does exist right now. The US government simply refused to recognize its existence.

How long do you think the "state of Palestine" would continue to exist if the U.S quit sending them money? Can they support themselves? Do they have a plan to take care of their citizens?

Longer than Israel would make it without US support.

Can a free state of Palestine support itself?

 

[Inthemiddle]

'Palestine' was the name the Romans gave what was known prior to that as 'Judea', the Wikipedia link and quote I provided document that.

No, it doesn't prove that at all. All you've demonstrated is that the Romans used the name Palestine. But you've ignored the fact that the name Palestine predates Roman usage. It predates the Kingdom of Judah. "Palestine" is not even a Latin word, which proves that it is not of Roman origin.

Your response of 'go read the Torah' or 'go read Herodotus' is not a citation nor a rational response of any real value.

So a mischaracterized reference to wikipedia is a good reference, but documents that predate Roman control of the region is not? It's not of any real value to your inaccurate claims. That's about it.

Jesus, you apparently dont even know what documentation is or you're just too lazy to engage in honest discussion.

What the Hell are you talking about? Centuries before Roman control of the area, the region was called Palestine. We know this because there exist documents that use the name Palestine for the region and people. You insist on ignoring all those sources as if they don't exist. And you have the audacity to complain that someone using those sources is being dishonest?

You have made one unwarranted assertion after another

No, I've backed up everything I've said with facts. You simply choose to ignore those facts because you don't want to face the fact that YOUR claims are unwarranted. You still can't reconcile the fact that Palestine is not a Latin word.

so by this time it is apparent that you have no references to back up your ridiculous claims.

I've provided references. You simply choose to ignore them, as if they don't exist. Explain why Herodotus calls the region "Palestine" more than 400 years before the Romans did.

 

[High_Gravity]

How long do you think the "state of Palestine" would continue to exist if the U.S quit sending them money? Can they support themselves? Do they have a plan to take care of their citizens?

Longer than Israel would make it without US support.

Can a free state of Palestine support itself?

This is a good point, the Palestinians have been getting by on aid money from other nations for decades.

 

[NYcarbineer]

It doesn't matter when it was "invented." The fact remains that the United States is an actual country with a government and well defined borders. The country of Palestine never existed. It's a fiction.

There was no country called Israel until 1948..shrug....

Ignorant asshat...

That's right, fuckstick, but after 1948 it was an actual country. "Palestine," on the other hand, was never an actual country. No one was ever a citizen of Palestine. No one ever received a passport from the country of Palestine.

So 1948 was the deadline to be a country? Is that just the Middle East, or everywhere?

 

[bripat9643]

Don't be ridiculous. Jordan has less of a "national" history than Palestine. The mandates were created at the same time and while Palestine had periods of national identity, Jordan was a totally "de novo" state.

What the fuck is "periods of national identity" supposed to mean? When was it an actual nation that could exclude the militaries of other nations from crossing it's borders?

Palestine had independent states in ancient times and during the Crusades.

Wrong. It was a different nation, and it was controlled by Christians or Jews in those times.

 

[Inthemiddle]

No it is not. Arabs speak the same language,

There are several different dialects that the Arab world speaks. Not only that, but the widespread usage of Arabic dialects does not magically erase the ethnic differences between the peoples. It is a result of religious conversion over history. There are many distinct ethnicities within the US, yet we all speak English. Those peoples historically have had different languages at different points in history.

all have the same religion

Religion has nothing to do with it. Ethnicity is not religion. That's why there are many Jews like myself who do not follow Judaism.

the same ethnic origins

Assyrians, Arabs, and Jews all have common ethnic origins if you go back far enough. But as populations increase and spread they have all branched off into their own ethnic groups, with smaller and distinct ethnic breakdowns. You just can't seem to understand this.

while the Dutch, Germans, Franks, Slavs, British, etc do not.

Despite the common origins of all these people, they still have developed into distinct ethnicities. If you reject calling all these people a singular ethnicity, then you must reject calling all Semitic people a singular ethnicity. If not, then you are singling out one group and making special rules that apply only to it, and nobody else.

Good greif, you are so frigging ignorant on this topic you dont even realize that 'British' is not an ethnic group as it includes the English, the Scots and the Welsh.

No, you're ignorant. While "British" can refer to all people from Great Britain, there are distinct ethnicities amongst them. The ancient Britons were a Celtic people, and developed into three distinct ethnicities, the Welsh, Cornish, and Bretons of France. The Angles were a Germanic people who settled Briton in th 5th century, and became the English. The modern Scots are a distinct ethnic group that developed as a mixing of Britons, Angles, and Gaels. What you failed to realize with your attempted ad hominem here is that the point is that these are distinct ethnicities, who some of whom have common ancestry, yet the modern day people are are (politically) British (except for the Bretons). Saying that all Arabs are one ethnicity would make as much sense as saying that all British are one ethnicity, or that all Americans are one ethnicity, or that all Africans are one ethnicity, or that all Jews are one ethnicity.

I think most of the hatred is directed at the acts of terrorism the Palestinians continue to commit

Israel commits acts of terrorism too. But it's an irrelevant point for this discussion, other than to say that ignoring the history of the Palestinian people as being a people, and creating special rules to that would strip that people of their rightful identity is not just logically flawed and factually dishonest, it's purpose is nothing more than hatefulness.

I have met several Palestinians, one of whom was Christian, BTW, not Muslim and they were all well educated and polite. But they absolutely hate Jews and Isreal, though they tried to disguise it as opposition to Zionism. Anytime any subject came up about Jews they got a seriously negative attitude and tone if what they said was not in itself blatantly antiSemite.

The Palestinians are an oppressed and occupied people, whose every effort for self determination and prosperity is trampled on by Israel. Who wouldn't hate one's oppressors as such? That is not anti-Semitism (and I repeat that this phrase as it is used, is itself a racist term). It's not prejudice and hatred on the base of race. It's hatred on the basis of being injured at the hands of Israel over and over again. There are plenty of Palestinians and Jews who get along very well, live side by side, may be best friends and hold a great deal of love for each other. After all, there are Jews who live in Palestine, and Palestinians who live in Israel. It's the politics that is the problem.

 

[bripat9643]

So 1948 was the deadline to be a country? Is that just the Middle East, or everywhere?

No, 1948 is not a deadline. It's an historical fact. It's the date Israel became a nation with official borders that issue passports and citizenship. There is no corresponding date for the nation of "Palestine" because it never happened.

 

[Inthemiddle]

Can a free state of Palestine support itself?

A free state? Yes, it could support itself on its own merits, obtain whatever help it might need from its allies, great its own prosperity, etc. The problem is that Palestine is not free. It is an occupied country, and the Israelis repeatedly trample on every attempt the Palestinians make for their own prosperity. Palestine has alot of area that produces olives. It's a valuable trade commodity. But when Israel burns your olive fields and maintains a naval blockade to prevent any trade that it hasn't already approved through its own channels, then it makes it impossible for Palestine to get much done.

 

[High_Gravity]

Can a free state of Palestine support itself?

A free state? Yes, it could support itself on its own merits, obtain whatever help it might need from its allies, great its own prosperity, etc. The problem is that Palestine is not free. It is an occupied country, and the Israelis repeatedly trample on every attempt the Palestinians make for their own prosperity. Palestine has alot of area that produces olives. It's a valuable trade commodity. But when Israel burns your olive fields and maintains a naval blockade to prevent any trade that it hasn't already approved through its own channels, then it makes it impossible for Palestine to get much done.

So, the Palestinians will be able to provide for themselves by exporting olives?

 

[Jos]

It doesn't matter when it was "invented." The fact remains that the United States is an actual country with a government and well defined borders. The country of Palestine never existed. It's a fiction.

There was no country called Israel until 1948..shrug....

Ignorant asshat...

That's right, fuckstick, but after 1948 it was an actual country. "Palestine," on the other hand, was never an actual country. No one was ever a citizen of Palestine. No one ever received a passport from the country of Palestine.

 

[Cecilie1200]

There was no country called Israel until 1948..shrug....

Ignorant asshat...

That's right, fuckstick, but after 1948 it was an actual country. "Palestine," on the other hand, was never an actual country. No one was ever a citizen of Palestine. No one ever received a passport from the country of Palestine.

Can you read the words at the top of that folder? What do they say? "British Passport", isn't it? So this would be a passport issued by the country of Great Britain, to someone who was in the British territory of Palestine when receiving it, right?

So the point stands that no one has ever received a passport from the country of Palestine, which has never existed, right?

 

[CMike]

They are mainly jordanians.

 

[Inthemiddle]

Wrong. It was a different nation, and it was controlled by Christians or Jews in those times.

No. The Philistines had several city-states in the area. At times, they were vassals to Egypt, but largely were autonomous. When the Assyrians and Babylonians destroyed the Jewish kingdoms, the ancient Palestinians came to occupy the whole of Palestine, even though parts of the region may have been controlled by various empires at various times. Under Ottoman rule, the region was generally autonomous as the Ottomans maintained the millet system where local and regional groups ruled themselves and the Sultan was concerned with expanding the empire, not assimilating the peoples.

One mistake that so many people insist on making is to try to compare political circumstances of the past to geopolitics of today. Not all countries in ancient times were nation-states. And not all states were countries. And just because a region was "within" such and such empire did not erase the cultural, ethnic, or historical record of that country and people. Demanding 21st century contructs in B.C.E. times is an absurd exercise.

 

[bripat9643]

What part of "British passport" didn't you understand?

There was no country called Israel until 1948..shrug....

Ignorant asshat...

That's right, fuckstick, but after 1948 it was an actual country. "Palestine," on the other hand, was never an actual country. No one was ever a citizen of Palestine. No one ever received a passport from the country of Palestine.

 

[Inthemiddle]

No, 1948 is not a deadline. It's an historical fact. It's the date Israel became a nation with official borders that issue passports and citizenship. There is no corresponding date for the nation of "Palestine" because it never happened.

That's the problem. Israel doesn't have official borders. It's never subscribed to the notion that it had any borders with Palestine. At most, there have been divisions based on the fact that here Jewish residency generally stops and Palestinian residency generally begins. But Israel has spend its history repeatedly crossing these "borders," and insisting it has the right to set up new settlements.

BTW, Palestine issues its own passports to its citizens. So what's the difference between the two? They both have indeterminate, disputed borders, both issue passports to its citizens, both were recognized by the UN as having the right to exist, both have declared independence. I'm not seeing any difference.

 

[Inthemiddle]

So, the Palestinians will be able to provide for themselves by exporting olives?

Seriously? It was a singular example of how Israel continually undermines Palestine's efforts.

 

[Jos]

Sand began his work by looking for research studies about forcible exile of Jews from the area now bordered by modern Israel, and its surrounding regions. He was astonished that he could find no such literature, he says, given that the expulsion of Jews from the region is viewed as a constitutive event in Jewish history. The conclusion he came to from his subsequent investigation is that the expulsion simply didn't happen, that no one exiled the Jewish people from the region, and that the Diaspora is essentially a modern invention. He accounts for the appearance of millions of Jews around the Mediterranean and elsewhere as something that came about primarily through the religious conversion of local people, saying that Judaism, contrary to popular opinion, was very much a "converting religion" in former times. He holds that mass conversions were first brought about by the Hasmoneans under the influence of Hellenism, and continued until Christianity rose to dominance in the fourth century CE.[10]
[edit] Jewish origins

Sand argues that it is likely that the ancestry of most contemporary Jews stems mainly from outside the ancient Land of Israel and that a "nation-race" of Jews with a common origin never existed. Just as most contemporary Christians and Muslims are the progeny of converted people, not of the first Christians and Muslims, Judaism was originally, like its two cousins, a proselytising religion. Many of the present day world Jewish population are descendants of European, Russian and African groups.

According to Sand, the original Jews living in Israel, contrary to popular belief, were not exiled following the Bar Kokhba revolt.[10] Sand argues that most of the Jews were not exiled by the Romans, and were permitted to remain in the country. Many Jews converted to Islam following the Arab conquest, and were assimilated among the conquerors. He concludes that the progenitors of the Palestinian Arabs were Jews.[11] Sand writes that the story of the exile was a myth promoted by early Christians to recruit Jews to the new faith. They portrayed that event as a divine punishment imposed on the Jews for having rejected the Christian gospel. Sand writes that "Christians wanted later generations of Jews to believe that their ancestors had been exiled as a punishment from God."[9]
[edit] Jewish peoplehood

Sand's explanation of the birth of the "myth" of a Jewish people as a group with a common, ethnic origin has been summarized as follows: "[a]t a certain stage in the 19th century intellectuals of Jewish origin in Germany, influenced by the folk character of German nationalism, took upon themselves the task of inventing a people "retrospectively," out of a thirst to create a modern Jewish people.

The Invention of the Jewish People - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[High_Gravity]

So, the Palestinians will be able to provide for themselves by exporting olives?

Seriously? It was a singular example of how Israel continually undermines Palestine's efforts.

The question remains though, if the Palestinians were given their own country today, how would it sustain itself? pointing fingers at Israel and the Jews won't get the bills paid ya heard?