Gingrich: Palestinians an ‘invented’ people

[Dr Grump]

Irrelevant to my statement. These people (in the West Bank, anyway) are Jordanians who were abandoned by their state.

And Americans started out as Irish, German, English and Welsh, and have more recently started out as Mexican, Colombian, Jamaican, Russian.

260 years ago there were no Americans.

Less than 100 years ago there were no Iraqis, Saudi's or Yemenese. There were no South Sudanese, there were no Djiboutians, no Malians.

Things change....

America actually exists. Palestine never has.

That's the bottom line.

Well, Palestine has existed for some time. You need to bone up on your history.

But there were no such people as Americans before Columbus arrived. Let's put it this way, Palestine was supposed to exist after WW1, and did for a very short time. That was 93 odd years ago.

In this parallel let's say it's 1585 (or 1868 if you want to talk about since independence)...The Native American is the Jew, and every body else is a Palestinian....

 

[Dr Grump]

Irrelevant to my statement. These people (in the West Bank, anyway) are Jordanians who were abandoned by their state.

And Americans started out as Irish, German, English and Welsh, and have more recently started out as Mexican, Colombian, Jamaican, Russian.

260 years ago there were no Americans.

Less than 100 years ago there were no Iraqis, Saudi's or Yemenese. There were no South Sudanese, there were no Djiboutians, no Malians.

Things change....

true... but the reality is, no one is arguing that california and texas belong to mexicans... or that the people who live in those states aren't americans.

Never said otherwise. My point is this; just because they call themselves Palestinian is irrelevant. I'm betting tens of thousands of those Palestinians (or Arabs, or whatever you want to call them) can trace their ancestry back to parts of Israel long before Europeans even set foot in the US.

People like to disenfranchise the arab people from that area under the pretext that there is no such thing as a Palestinian. My point is two fold:

1) There are many countries that have or have not existed over time. There is no longer an Ottoman Empire, Roman Empire, Austro-Hungry Empire. There is now a Serbia, Kosovo and Southern Sudan - all came into long after Palestine was established. Or are they not real countries or people either?
2) It doesn't matter what you call yourself, if you can trace your ancestry back hundreds, or even a thousand years, that is your home. If you say no, then 99% of Americans are foreigners....

 

[theliq]

YES. THEY DID. IT'S A FUCKING TRANSLITERATED HEBREW WORD and it means Jerusalem.

Holy shit, pick up a book for once in your life.

This is the kind of shit we have to deal with, people like you, who are so passionate about the things they say, without even understanding that what they say is a complete and utter lie that is easily proven to be a lie to themselves if they only seek the knowledge.

Jews invented the word "Zion," which refers to Jerusalem. Anti-Semites like you coined the word "Zionism" so they could express their hatred for Jews while hiding behind a rhetorical fig leaf.

actually, the term zionism was in reference to a political movement to recognize a jewish homeland and bring jews out of diaspora which goes back to the 1800's. after the holocaust, that became a more focused movement, obviously, since the U.S. and Britain wouldn't allow Jews in during the war or after and sent boatloads of jews to their death by returning them to nazi occupied territory.???????????????????? Good Post Jillian,despite your insult in the post below,but I give credit where credit is due,I will point out though,that the Zionist were highly motivated from 1890 onwards,I think they originated in Britain,as they lobbied Balfour, and got a declaration circa 1900 for an Israeli state moreover the Zionist got a lot of German Jews out of the Nazis claws,for a price of course,which enabled them to go to Palestine in the late 30's*****SHIT, SORRY BUT I'VE PUT THIS IN THE WRONG PLACE****see below

zionism only became a perjorative after the arab-sympathetic U.N. passed a resolution defining zionism as racism (of course, pan arabism wasn't racism, terrorism wasn't racism, but that's another story).

and yes, the term does come from biblical references to zion. and jerusalem has always been considered the center of the jewish world and the place to return to, which is why "next year in jerusalem" was so important.

Again my apologies Jillian as a matter of fact "The Balfour Declaration"has been the subject of much debate and dispute over the past century,as he had no authority to make such a pledge. but the reality is Israel exists and rightly so.

Most Jewish friends and when I was in Israel last, a very high proportion of Israelis(except the Ultra Right/Orthodox),feel that the Palestinians should have their own land,the problem is,IS HOW TO ACHIEVE THIS. Again Thanks for your informative and rational post.steven

 

[theliq]

Apples to cumquats sport.

No there were NO White Americans at the time you say,but there were many different Native American Peoples,but I suppose to YOU that they don't matter as YOU didn't mention them,another attempt to white(excuse the pun)wash America history,to suit the Anglophile guilt.NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR THIS SITE I'M AFRAID,NOT GOOD ENOUGH AT ALL. theliq

What's with this race crap spreading on this site?

Race Crap, UTTER RUBBISH.. I HAD TO PULL YOU UP,its not what you said BUT WHAT YOU DID NOT SAY,that is most perturbing,it's as if you think that American History begins with the advent of European settlement.BUT HOW WRONG YOU ARE.

You need to be told because otherwise,folk are only reading your attempt to tell (incorrectly) American History.My comment was NOT RACIST in anyway,it was the informed truth, of the matter.I think you need to INVEST IN A DICTIONARY as your interpretation of Racist/Racism is putting mildly CRAP.......tl

 

[Gadawg73]

Jews can also trace their home to Palestine. Long before there was anything known as a "Muslim" 3000 years ago.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Gingrich appears to be regularly tossing out ideas (if we can use that term loosely) that he appears to know play well in the rightwing 'blogosphere', and thus he probably figures are good biscuits for the GOP base.

 

[NYcarbineer]

The United States of America was invented in what? 1776? 1787? 5000 BC?

 

[bripat9643]

Gingrich appears to be regularly tossing out ideas (if we can use that term loosely) that he appears to know play well in the rightwing 'blogosphere', and thus he probably figures are good biscuits for the GOP base.

Frankly, I don't know why he reversed himself on that claim. The only people who are upset about wouldn't vote Republican if their lives depended on it.

 

[bripat9643]

The United States of America was invented in what? 1776? 1787? 5000 BC?

It doesn't matter when it was "invented." The fact remains that the United States is an actual country with a government and well defined borders. The country of Palestine never existed. It's a fiction.

 

[Gadawg73]

Gingrich appears to be regularly tossing out ideas (if we can use that term loosely) that he appears to know play well in the rightwing 'blogosphere', and thus he probably figures are good biscuits for the GOP base.

I am not a Gingrich supporter. Look into his death penalty for drug dealers legislation from1996. The man is off the wall. But if he is the nominee he is better than what we have now. Obama knows nothing about business and basic economics.

 

[Inthemiddle]

Palestine was in areas that stretched into Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and what is now Isreal.

Again, that's a really neat trick. How did they move the land to all those different places? Palestine was never in those places. Palestine has always been right where Palestine is. The region has been conquered and controlled by various empires at the time, but that's about it. The Egyptians invaded at one point, but held only minimal control with the Philistine city-states remaining generally autonomous. The Assyrians invaded and destroyed the Kingdom of Israel and conquered a good part of the rest of Palestine. The Babylonians laid the smack down on Judah. Jordan never existed until the 20th century. I don't know where you're getting Jordan from, other than the fact that what is modern day Jordan (then called Transjordan) was included in the British Mandate of Palestine. But see, it was the British mandate of PALESTINE. The area was Palestine, and what is modern day Jordan was at that time part of Palestine, not the other way around. Jordan was chopped off of Palestine. The Jordanians are a political branch off from Palestine.

The first mention in recorded history has Palestine in Syria as the ancient Greeks in The Histories clearly defined Palestine in a part of Syria and Jordan.

No, the earliest references are Egyptian sources that refer to the "Peleset" people to the north west of Egypt. And Assyrian sources that refer the area as Palashtu, as well as Hebrew references to Peleshet that all predate Herodotus. Not only that, but Herodotus never said the area was in Syria. He referred to Palestine as it's own region.

After this they marched forward with the design of invading Egypt. When they had reached Palestine, however, Psammetichus the Egyptian king met them with gifts and prayers, and prevailed on them to advance no further. On their return, passing through Ascalon, a city of Syria, the greater part of them went their way without doing any damage; but some few who lagged behind pillaged the temple of Celestial Venus.

What Herodotus does mention is that there are Syrians who live in Palestine who learned the practice of circumcision from the Egyptians.

The Phoenicians and the Syrians of Palestine themselves confess that they learnt the custom of the Egyptians...

Herodotus goes on to talk about other Syrians who live in what is modern day Turkey.

and the Syrians who dwell about the rivers Thermodon and Parthenius, as well as their neighbours the Macronians, say that they have recently adopted it from the Colchians.

These two rivers are in northern Turkey, flowing into the Black Sea. Well beyond the reach of the Assyrian empire at the time. This demonstrates that Herodotus was talking about Assyrians who were in areas outside of any area that was ever considered part of Assyria, or even the reaches of their empire.

Try again.

Yes, you should. Because you're WAAAAAAAY off the reservation.

In the 9th century Palestine was ruled by Egypt and then the Christian Crusaders smashed their party there and then the Seventh Crusade and then the Mongolians smashed their party there and on and on and on. Add in the Ottomans off and on.

What's your point? It was still Palestine, and the people there were still Palestinians.

In the early 1800s Egyptian influence again dominated Palestine and they took over again soon after. They returned power to the Ottomans and where oh where were the Arabs and Persians supporting these poor "Palestinians" then?

I see, your plan here is to go off on tangents to try to get away from an unsustainable position, to a "sustainable" rant, in hopes that people will get confused and accept your flawed original position. Well, not going to work.

Fact is there was a hodge podge of peoples populating what was then "Palestine" for over a thousand years and few were labeled as "Palestinians".

That's not true. The area was controlled by various powers at different times. But the area has ALWAYS been populated by the Palestinian people. You think that just because the Egyptians controlled the area at such and such time, that all of a sudden the population disappeared in a puff of smoke and a bunch of Egyptians sprung up from the ground?

Enter the Jews and all of a sudden we have millions of them.

I find it amazing that as Jews, we haven't had a country of our own for over 2000 years, have migrated and spread throughout Europe, the Mid East, and Africa century after century, and yet you have no problem believing that the Jews are a distinct people despite the fact that we have always lived in other nations, yet the Palestinians are somehow an "invented" people because the region has at times been controlled by foreign powers. It's completely nonsensical.

 

[kaz]

Then America is an invented nation as well.

Of course it is. You say that like you think it was clever.

 

[Inthemiddle]

Irrelevant to my statement. These people (in the West Bank, anyway) are Jordanians who were abandoned by their state.

So what were they called before Jordan existed?

They were called Arabs.

That's like saying that the French were called white. They were called Palestinians.

 

[Inthemiddle]

Irrelevant to my statement. These people (in the West Bank, anyway) are Jordanians who were abandoned by their state.

So let me get this straight....Palestinians, who have lived in an area that has been called Palestine since antiquity and have been called Palestinians for thousands of years, are not a real people, they are in fact Jordanians, even though Jordan did not exist as a region until about 90 years ago. That makes perfect sense. And by "perfect" I mean none.

 

[Sallow]

Then America is an invented nation as well.

Yeah and?

Gingrich doesn't like Palestinians. We get it. He doesn't like many people in general..especially non-white non-christians.

 

[Inthemiddle]

America actually exists. Palestine never has.

That's the bottom line.

No, that's a false line. It is absolutely false, it has been completely disproven in this thread. The bottom line is that you are willfully refusing to ignore the facts.

 

[Inthemiddle]

It doesn't matter when it was "invented." The fact remains that the United States is an actual country with a government and well defined borders. The country of Palestine never existed. It's a fiction.

The state of Palestine does exist right now. The US government simply refused to recognize its existence.

 

[del]

America actually exists. Palestine never has.

That's the bottom line.

No, that's a false line. It is absolutely false, it has been completely disproven in this thread. The bottom line is that you are willfully refusing to ignore the facts.

willfully refusing to ignore the facts

hmmm

 

[Vel]

And Americans started out as Irish, German, English and Welsh, and have more recently started out as Mexican, Colombian, Jamaican, Russian.

260 years ago there were no Americans.

Less than 100 years ago there were no Iraqis, Saudi's or Yemenese. There were no South Sudanese, there were no Djiboutians, no Malians.

Things change....

true... but the reality is, no one is arguing that california and texas belong to mexicans... or that the people who live in those states aren't americans.

Never said otherwise. My point is this; just because they call themselves Palestinian is irrelevant. I'm betting tens of thousands of those Palestinians (or Arabs, or whatever you want to call them) can trace their ancestry back to parts of Israel long before Europeans even set foot in the US.

People like to disenfranchise the arab people from that area under the pretext that there is no such thing as a Palestinian. My point is two fold:

1) There are many countries that have or have not existed over time. There is no longer an Ottoman Empire, Roman Empire, Austro-Hungry Empire. There is now a Serbia, Kosovo and Southern Sudan - all came into long after Palestine was established. Or are they not real countries or people either?
2) It doesn't matter what you call yourself, if you can trace your ancestry back hundreds, or even a thousand years, that is your home. If you say no, then 99% of Americans are foreigners....

As you said..Things change. I can go to several counties in Tennessee and trace my ancestry back almost 200 years, but those places have never been MY home. My ancestors, through decisions they made and the Civil War, lost possession of the thousands of acres that our family owned in those counties. It doesn't matter HOW my family lost the property, I still have no right to go to the people there now and tell them that I am retaking the property that my ancestors lost. If I want to live in one of those places now, I have to deal with the reality of TODAY.

 

[kaz]

Then America is an invented nation as well.

Yeah and?

Gingrich doesn't like Palestinians. We get it. He doesn't like many people in general..especially non-white non-christians.

Once again the true party of hate reveals itself...