God declares war on Christmas

[sealybobo]

I just pointed it out. No man has the credibility or authority to convince humans to do things against their nature without religion/god etc as the final authority.

You are moving the goal posts. Who said anything about "against their nature?" If you want to protect your own life or property, it is beneficial to have a societal agreement respecting life and property with (temporal) punishment for violaters. Why does one need a supernatural entity for that to make sense?

No one has provided evidence to the contrary. Name me just 1 event in history where a group of people were convinced to kill themselves or abstain from sex without a god being referred to at some point in the sales pitch.

ummm are there any examples of anyone trying to convince people to kill themselves or abstain from sex without a god as the reason? So your analogy fails there...you can't say that something that has never been tried doesn't work without a specific reason why. And people have been convinced to kill themselves by "friends" and others.

A suffering

You are moving the goal posts. Who said anything about "against their nature?" If you want to protect your own life or property, it is beneficial to have a societal agreement respecting life and property with (temporal) punishment for violaters. Why does one need a supernatural entity for that to make sense?

ummm are there any examples of anyone trying to convince people to kill themselves or abstain from sex without a god as the reason? So your analogy fails there...you can't say that something that has never been tried doesn't work without a specific reason why. And people have been convinced to kill themselves by "friends" and others.

I'm not moving the goal posts. I am asking for proof to the contrary. Religion is social control and the best way to test that theory is to find a time when a human convinced a group of other humans to do something that is against their natural impulses without invoking god/religion at some point in the sales job.

No my analogy doesnt fail because you are talking about individuals. I'm talking about large groups of people being convinced to do something against their natural impulse by another entity.

Eventually we will move towards solving global climate change and god won't have a thing to do with it.

God isn't convincing me we have to fight ISIS. This isn't a holy war.

We collectively made abortions legal and actually we went against what god believers said.

Youre not making sense. What does global climate change have to do with doing something against your natural impulses? What does fighting ISIS have to do with going against your natural impulses? What does abortion have to do with it?

You said "No man has the credibility or authority to convince humans to do things against their nature without religion/god"

Seems like burning fossil fuels and hunting are part of our nature but we have hunting seasons for example where it is illegal to hunt or fish. We do that to assure the survival of the animals we harvest every year. No one had to bring up god to convince us to only allow hunting between Oct 15 and Jan 1.

Anyways, I can see you are going to be stubborn about this. Fine, you think god is a necessary lie people need to believe or they'd do all kinds of bad things. That tells me a lot about you. That you can't imagine yourself being a good person without god. Without god you'd have no reason not to lie, cheat, steal and murder. Got it.

Thats correct. The operative word is "convince" not force.

No burning fossil fuels is not part of our nature. Hunting is not part of our nature either. If that was true people wouldnt get their meat from the store. Thats not hunting. Either way the natural instinct of survival would limit us if we perceived there was a threat to our existence by over hunting or burning fossil fuels which is stronger.

I'm not being stubborn. I'm trying to get you to provide proof your opinion is correct and mine is incorrect. No i dont think what you just claimed I think. My belief is that more people would be doing more "bad" things if there were no concepts of god/afterlife/karma etc. All those invisible unprovable concepts that do a adequate job guarding against complete anarchy. I dont actually believe in a "god". There is nothing to stop me from lying cheating, stealing, or murder but myself. If put in a situation where I believed they were needed I would have no qualms about doing any of those things.

I do agree with you that the black community wouldn't put up with how whites treat them if it weren't for religion.

The reason I'm fishin' 4 a new religion
Is my church makes me fall asleep
They're praising a God, that watches you weep
And doesn't want you to do a damn thing about it

When they want change
The preacher says, "Shout it"
Does shout bring about change? I doubt it
All shout does is make you lose your voice

So on the dock I sit in silence
Staring at a sea that's full of violence
Scared to put my line in that water
'Coz it seems like no religion is in there

Naively so I give it another go
Sitting in church, hearing legitimate woes
Pastor tells the lady it'll be alright
Just pray so you can see the pearly gates so white

So the lady prays and prays and prays and prays

It's everlasting, there's nothing wrong with praying, it's what she's asking
She's asking the Lord, to let her cope
So one day she can see the golden ropes

What you pray for God, will give
To be able to cope in this world we live
The word cope and the word change
Is directly opposite, not the same

She should have been praying to change her woes
But pastor said, "Pray to cope with those"
The government is happy with most baptist churches
'Coz we don't do a damn thing to try to nurture

Brothers and sisters on a revolution
Baptist teaches, dying is the only solution
Passiveness causes others to pass us by
I throw my line until I've made my decision

Until then, I'm still fishin' 4 religion
I'm fishin' 4 religion

 

[Asclepias]

Thats were you are wrong. You may be able to convince a weak minded person or a child that its wrong without the threat of god/higher power (maybe), but there is no way you have the authority or credibility to convince more than a few without some omnipresent higher authority backing you up. .

Why not? You keep claiming it's necessary, but you have no evidence or reasoning to support this.

I just pointed it out. No man has the credibility or authority to convince humans to do things against their nature without religion/god etc as the final authority.

You are moving the goal posts. Who said anything about "against their nature?" If you want to protect your own life or property, it is beneficial to have a societal agreement respecting life and property with (temporal) punishment for violaters. Why does one need a supernatural entity for that to make sense?

No one has provided evidence to the contrary. Name me just 1 event in history where a group of people were convinced to kill themselves or abstain from sex without a god being referred to at some point in the sales pitch.

ummm are there any examples of anyone trying to convince people to kill themselves or abstain from sex without a god as the reason? So your analogy fails there...you can't say that something that has never been tried doesn't work without a specific reason why. And people have been convinced to kill themselves by "friends" and others.

I'm not moving the goal posts. I am asking for proof to the contrary. Religion is social control and the best way to test that theory is to find a time when a human convinced a group of other humans to do something that is against their natural impulses without invoking god/religion at some point in the sales job.

No my analogy doesnt fail because you are talking about individuals. I'm talking about large groups of people being convinced to do something against their natural impulse by another entity.

Atheists can’t know the difference between right and wrong.
Note: The following answer is a generalization. Atheists are not a homogeneous group. There is no formal moral code resulting from a lack of belief. Atheists can and do subscribe to any number of ethical systems, or may simply decide such things for themselves.

Atheists generally derive their sense of right and wrong from an innate and reasoned understanding of which actions contribute towards a society most hospitable to continual well-being and personal fulfillment. They are accountable to their own conscience and to society at large. They do not require an absolute standard in order to make distinctions between the possible effects of their actions.

Atheists are attuned to the here and now. Their ethics are not derived from some reward or punishment after death, but from a rational consideration of the consequences in this life. Impulsive desires are compassionately, empathetically and intelligently weighed against long term personal and social goals.

As social animals that have evolved to want and give love, to have freedom and security, we have learned that we are safer, stronger and more prosperous in a successful group. Crimes are inherently anti-social behaviours that introduce needless risk and are antithetical to the long-term needs and goals of a happy, stable society.

Essentially all theists unknowingly exercise their innate ‘morality’ or conscience by picking and choosing which parts of their religion to follow.

See also: Enlightened Self-Interest, Secular Ethics, Secular Humanism, Secular Morality, Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Conscience, Morality – Good without Gods (a must watch) Sam Harris – Science and Morality (a must watch), Trust, Morality and Oxytocin (a must watch), Christopher Hitchens on Atheist morality.

I have no need for religion, I have a conscience.

You should look up the definition of conscience. Its a concept that comes from religion. It is the ability to see right from wrong. Who sets those standards? Ask yourself hard questions and then seek the answers.

 

[sealybobo]

Fairness and being nice existed long before the concept of god. We hadn't invented god yet.

Can you give me an example? Thats a rhetorical question because the earliest known religion/god is at least 75k years old

Can you prove fairness and niceties came only after religion?

I went and fed the homeless this Thanksgiving and I'm an atheist. What possible reason would I help strangers if I don't believe in God?

I asked you first.

I already told you that you were educated in the religious concepts of charity as a child. Doesnt matter what you believe now. The concepts of charity have already formed the habit long before you reached adulthood.

Wasn't it you who said no true Christian would ever own a slave? Weren't christian slave owners educated in these religious concepts?

So you're saying no matter what I know now, being taught about god is how I ended up being a good person who knows right and wrong.

Funny how that this belief in god didn't stop all those slave owners but with me I wouldn't know to give to charity if this god concept wasn't taught to me.

I'm a lot confused now.

Obviously they were educated in religious concepts but it was with a twist that allowed them to own slaves on the pretense of taking care of the savages. You should read up on this phenomenon on how supposed christians actually rationalized they were doing Blacks a favor by enslaving them. It was the christian thing to do because Blacks were not actually human to them. If they had believed Blacks to be human then slavery would have never taken hold here in the US among christians. The two conflicting concepts would have caused cognitive dissonance. The ability to change their religion to support slavery is further proof of my theory. You shouldnt remain confused. Investigate these things and you will see I speak the truth.

What about the slave owners who grew up being taught right and wrong by someone who believes in god? How did they rape and beat them? Ever hear a dog or goat or horse speak? Of course they were human beings. Cognitive dissonance is what you are experience right now my friend.

the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change.

 

[Asclepias]

You are moving the goal posts. Who said anything about "against their nature?" If you want to protect your own life or property, it is beneficial to have a societal agreement respecting life and property with (temporal) punishment for violaters. Why does one need a supernatural entity for that to make sense?

ummm are there any examples of anyone trying to convince people to kill themselves or abstain from sex without a god as the reason? So your analogy fails there...you can't say that something that has never been tried doesn't work without a specific reason why. And people have been convinced to kill themselves by "friends" and others.

A suffering

I'm not moving the goal posts. I am asking for proof to the contrary. Religion is social control and the best way to test that theory is to find a time when a human convinced a group of other humans to do something that is against their natural impulses without invoking god/religion at some point in the sales job.

No my analogy doesnt fail because you are talking about individuals. I'm talking about large groups of people being convinced to do something against their natural impulse by another entity.

Eventually we will move towards solving global climate change and god won't have a thing to do with it.

God isn't convincing me we have to fight ISIS. This isn't a holy war.

We collectively made abortions legal and actually we went against what god believers said.

Youre not making sense. What does global climate change have to do with doing something against your natural impulses? What does fighting ISIS have to do with going against your natural impulses? What does abortion have to do with it?

You said "No man has the credibility or authority to convince humans to do things against their nature without religion/god"

Seems like burning fossil fuels and hunting are part of our nature but we have hunting seasons for example where it is illegal to hunt or fish. We do that to assure the survival of the animals we harvest every year. No one had to bring up god to convince us to only allow hunting between Oct 15 and Jan 1.

Anyways, I can see you are going to be stubborn about this. Fine, you think god is a necessary lie people need to believe or they'd do all kinds of bad things. That tells me a lot about you. That you can't imagine yourself being a good person without god. Without god you'd have no reason not to lie, cheat, steal and murder. Got it.

Thats correct. The operative word is "convince" not force.

No burning fossil fuels is not part of our nature. Hunting is not part of our nature either. If that was true people wouldnt get their meat from the store. Thats not hunting. Either way the natural instinct of survival would limit us if we perceived there was a threat to our existence by over hunting or burning fossil fuels which is stronger.

I'm not being stubborn. I'm trying to get you to provide proof your opinion is correct and mine is incorrect. No i dont think what you just claimed I think. My belief is that more people would be doing more "bad" things if there were no concepts of god/afterlife/karma etc. All those invisible unprovable concepts that do a adequate job guarding against complete anarchy. I dont actually believe in a "god". There is nothing to stop me from lying cheating, stealing, or murder but myself. If put in a situation where I believed they were needed I would have no qualms about doing any of those things.

I do agree with you that the black community wouldn't put up with how whites treat them if it weren't for religion.

The reason I'm fishin' 4 a new religion
Is my church makes me fall asleep
They're praising a God, that watches you weep
And doesn't want you to do a damn thing about it

When they want change
The preacher says, "Shout it"
Does shout bring about change? I doubt it
All shout does is make you lose your voice

So on the dock I sit in silence
Staring at a sea that's full of violence
Scared to put my line in that water
'Coz it seems like no religion is in there

Naively so I give it another go
Sitting in church, hearing legitimate woes
Pastor tells the lady it'll be alright
Just pray so you can see the pearly gates so white

So the lady prays and prays and prays and prays

It's everlasting, there's nothing wrong with praying, it's what she's asking
She's asking the Lord, to let her cope
So one day she can see the golden ropes

What you pray for God, will give
To be able to cope in this world we live
The word cope and the word change
Is directly opposite, not the same

She should have been praying to change her woes
But pastor said, "Pray to cope with those"
The government is happy with most baptist churches
'Coz we don't do a damn thing to try to nurture

Brothers and sisters on a revolution
Baptist teaches, dying is the only solution
Passiveness causes others to pass us by
I throw my line until I've made my decision

Until then, I'm still fishin' 4 religion
I'm fishin' 4 religion

Thats why white enslavers killed and punished the enlsaved that spoke their native language and worshipped their native gods. Enslavers frequently read to slaves bible passages that reinforced the idea that it was a good thing to be a slave. That was a very important part of slavery and recommended by a consensus of slave owners. Again another example and proof of my belief that religion can make people go against their natural impulses

 

[sealybobo]

Why not? You keep claiming it's necessary, but you have no evidence or reasoning to support this.

I just pointed it out. No man has the credibility or authority to convince humans to do things against their nature without religion/god etc as the final authority.

You are moving the goal posts. Who said anything about "against their nature?" If you want to protect your own life or property, it is beneficial to have a societal agreement respecting life and property with (temporal) punishment for violaters. Why does one need a supernatural entity for that to make sense?

No one has provided evidence to the contrary. Name me just 1 event in history where a group of people were convinced to kill themselves or abstain from sex without a god being referred to at some point in the sales pitch.

ummm are there any examples of anyone trying to convince people to kill themselves or abstain from sex without a god as the reason? So your analogy fails there...you can't say that something that has never been tried doesn't work without a specific reason why. And people have been convinced to kill themselves by "friends" and others.

I'm not moving the goal posts. I am asking for proof to the contrary. Religion is social control and the best way to test that theory is to find a time when a human convinced a group of other humans to do something that is against their natural impulses without invoking god/religion at some point in the sales job.

No my analogy doesnt fail because you are talking about individuals. I'm talking about large groups of people being convinced to do something against their natural impulse by another entity.

Atheists can’t know the difference between right and wrong.
Note: The following answer is a generalization. Atheists are not a homogeneous group. There is no formal moral code resulting from a lack of belief. Atheists can and do subscribe to any number of ethical systems, or may simply decide such things for themselves.

Atheists generally derive their sense of right and wrong from an innate and reasoned understanding of which actions contribute towards a society most hospitable to continual well-being and personal fulfillment. They are accountable to their own conscience and to society at large. They do not require an absolute standard in order to make distinctions between the possible effects of their actions.

Atheists are attuned to the here and now. Their ethics are not derived from some reward or punishment after death, but from a rational consideration of the consequences in this life. Impulsive desires are compassionately, empathetically and intelligently weighed against long term personal and social goals.

As social animals that have evolved to want and give love, to have freedom and security, we have learned that we are safer, stronger and more prosperous in a successful group. Crimes are inherently anti-social behaviours that introduce needless risk and are antithetical to the long-term needs and goals of a happy, stable society.

Essentially all theists unknowingly exercise their innate ‘morality’ or conscience by picking and choosing which parts of their religion to follow.

See also: Enlightened Self-Interest, Secular Ethics, Secular Humanism, Secular Morality, Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Conscience, Morality – Good without Gods (a must watch) Sam Harris – Science and Morality (a must watch), Trust, Morality and Oxytocin (a must watch), Christopher Hitchens on Atheist morality.

I have no need for religion, I have a conscience.

You should look up the definition of conscience. Its a concept that comes from religion. It is the ability to see right from wrong. Who sets those standards? Ask yourself hard questions and then seek the answers.

Not one word about religion:

con·science
ˈkän(t)SHəns/
noun

1. an inner feeling or voice viewed as acting as a guide to the rightness or wrongness of one's behavior.
   "he had a guilty conscience about his desires"
   synonyms: sense of right and wrong, moral sense, inner voice;
   morals, standards,values, principles, ethics, beliefs;
   compunction, scruples, qualms
   "her conscience would not allow her to remain silent"

Yes my friend, religion has been around a long time. I see how the lines are blurred. Trust me, religion is totally unnecessary. Maybe not for the retarded masses today but maybe for future more evolved humans, god isn't needed. In fact god isn't needed now. What's god doing for these people other than helping them cope?

Did you know that the whites who helped free the slaves didn't let the blacks sit in the white pews? Funny god and the bible didn't tell them that was wrong.

And religious god fearing whites still don't want their daughters marrying black guys. When is god going to help them with that cognitive dissonance?

 

[Asclepias]

Can you give me an example? Thats a rhetorical question because the earliest known religion/god is at least 75k years old

Can you prove fairness and niceties came only after religion?

I went and fed the homeless this Thanksgiving and I'm an atheist. What possible reason would I help strangers if I don't believe in God?

I asked you first.

I already told you that you were educated in the religious concepts of charity as a child. Doesnt matter what you believe now. The concepts of charity have already formed the habit long before you reached adulthood.

Wasn't it you who said no true Christian would ever own a slave? Weren't christian slave owners educated in these religious concepts?

So you're saying no matter what I know now, being taught about god is how I ended up being a good person who knows right and wrong.

Funny how that this belief in god didn't stop all those slave owners but with me I wouldn't know to give to charity if this god concept wasn't taught to me.

I'm a lot confused now.

Obviously they were educated in religious concepts but it was with a twist that allowed them to own slaves on the pretense of taking care of the savages. You should read up on this phenomenon on how supposed christians actually rationalized they were doing Blacks a favor by enslaving them. It was the christian thing to do because Blacks were not actually human to them. If they had believed Blacks to be human then slavery would have never taken hold here in the US among christians. The two conflicting concepts would have caused cognitive dissonance. The ability to change their religion to support slavery is further proof of my theory. You shouldnt remain confused. Investigate these things and you will see I speak the truth.

What about the slave owners who grew up being taught right and wrong by someone who believes in god? How did they rape and beat them? Ever hear a dog or goat or horse speak? Of course they were human beings. Cognitive dissonance is what you are experience right now my friend.

the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change.

Spare the rod......

Again if you dont believe someone is human then the act of rape is merely a sin against an animal. I know they were humans but you are ignoring the point that they were not considered human by white christians. This isnt hard Sealy. All you have to do is look at the history. Whites documented this.

 

[sealybobo]

Fairness and being nice existed long before the concept of god. We hadn't invented god yet.

Can you give me an example? Thats a rhetorical question because the earliest known religion/god is at least 75k years old

Can you prove fairness and niceties came only after religion?

I went and fed the homeless this Thanksgiving and I'm an atheist. What possible reason would I help strangers if I don't believe in God?

I asked you first.

I already told you that you were educated in the religious concepts of charity as a child. Doesnt matter what you believe now. The concepts of charity have already formed the habit long before you reached adulthood.

Wasn't it you who said no true Christian would ever own a slave? Weren't christian slave owners educated in these religious concepts?

So you're saying no matter what I know now, being taught about god is how I ended up being a good person who knows right and wrong.

Funny how that this belief in god didn't stop all those slave owners but with me I wouldn't know to give to charity if this god concept wasn't taught to me.

I'm a lot confused now.

Obviously they were educated in religious concepts but it was with a twist that allowed them to own slaves on the pretense of taking care of the savages. You should read up on this phenomenon on how supposed christians actually rationalized they were doing Blacks a favor by enslaving them. It was the christian thing to do because Blacks were not actually human to them. If they had believed Blacks to be human then slavery would have never taken hold here in the US among christians. The two conflicting concepts would have caused cognitive dissonance. The ability to change their religion to support slavery is further proof of my theory. You shouldnt remain confused. Investigate these things and you will see I speak the truth.

Good, charity, kindness may all be religious concepts but goodness existed before religions. You'd have to prove no good existed until religion was invented.

 

[Asclepias]

I just pointed it out. No man has the credibility or authority to convince humans to do things against their nature without religion/god etc as the final authority.

You are moving the goal posts. Who said anything about "against their nature?" If you want to protect your own life or property, it is beneficial to have a societal agreement respecting life and property with (temporal) punishment for violaters. Why does one need a supernatural entity for that to make sense?

No one has provided evidence to the contrary. Name me just 1 event in history where a group of people were convinced to kill themselves or abstain from sex without a god being referred to at some point in the sales pitch.

ummm are there any examples of anyone trying to convince people to kill themselves or abstain from sex without a god as the reason? So your analogy fails there...you can't say that something that has never been tried doesn't work without a specific reason why. And people have been convinced to kill themselves by "friends" and others.

I'm not moving the goal posts. I am asking for proof to the contrary. Religion is social control and the best way to test that theory is to find a time when a human convinced a group of other humans to do something that is against their natural impulses without invoking god/religion at some point in the sales job.

No my analogy doesnt fail because you are talking about individuals. I'm talking about large groups of people being convinced to do something against their natural impulse by another entity.

Atheists can’t know the difference between right and wrong.
Note: The following answer is a generalization. Atheists are not a homogeneous group. There is no formal moral code resulting from a lack of belief. Atheists can and do subscribe to any number of ethical systems, or may simply decide such things for themselves.

Atheists generally derive their sense of right and wrong from an innate and reasoned understanding of which actions contribute towards a society most hospitable to continual well-being and personal fulfillment. They are accountable to their own conscience and to society at large. They do not require an absolute standard in order to make distinctions between the possible effects of their actions.

Atheists are attuned to the here and now. Their ethics are not derived from some reward or punishment after death, but from a rational consideration of the consequences in this life. Impulsive desires are compassionately, empathetically and intelligently weighed against long term personal and social goals.

As social animals that have evolved to want and give love, to have freedom and security, we have learned that we are safer, stronger and more prosperous in a successful group. Crimes are inherently anti-social behaviours that introduce needless risk and are antithetical to the long-term needs and goals of a happy, stable society.

Essentially all theists unknowingly exercise their innate ‘morality’ or conscience by picking and choosing which parts of their religion to follow.

See also: Enlightened Self-Interest, Secular Ethics, Secular Humanism, Secular Morality, Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Conscience, Morality – Good without Gods (a must watch) Sam Harris – Science and Morality (a must watch), Trust, Morality and Oxytocin (a must watch), Christopher Hitchens on Atheist morality.

I have no need for religion, I have a conscience.

You should look up the definition of conscience. Its a concept that comes from religion. It is the ability to see right from wrong. Who sets those standards? Ask yourself hard questions and then seek the answers.

Not one word about religion:

con·science
ˈkän(t)SHəns/
noun

1. an inner feeling or voice viewed as acting as a guide to the rightness or wrongness of one's behavior.
   "he had a guilty conscience about his desires"
   synonyms: sense of right and wrong, moral sense, inner voice;
   morals, standards,values, principles, ethics, beliefs;
   compunction, scruples, qualms
   "her conscience would not allow her to remain silent"

Yes my friend, religion has been around a long time. I see how the lines are blurred. Trust me, religion is totally unnecessary. Maybe not for the retarded masses today but maybe for future more evolved humans, god isn't needed. In fact god isn't needed now. What's god doing for these people other than helping them cope?

Did you know that the whites who helped free the slaves didn't let the blacks sit in the white pews? Funny god and the bible didn't tell them that was wrong.

And religious god fearing whites still don't want their daughters marrying black guys. When is god going to help them with that cognitive dissonance?

Right and wrong are religious concepts. You cant get away from that.

The concept of religion is necessary until people evolve. Without it more people will be doing more bad things. I know a lot of ex drug dealers for example. There number 1 excuse for stopping is that they didnt want to go to hell or have karma drop in for a visit.

 

[Asclepias]

Can you give me an example? Thats a rhetorical question because the earliest known religion/god is at least 75k years old

Can you prove fairness and niceties came only after religion?

I went and fed the homeless this Thanksgiving and I'm an atheist. What possible reason would I help strangers if I don't believe in God?

I asked you first.

I already told you that you were educated in the religious concepts of charity as a child. Doesnt matter what you believe now. The concepts of charity have already formed the habit long before you reached adulthood.

Wasn't it you who said no true Christian would ever own a slave? Weren't christian slave owners educated in these religious concepts?

So you're saying no matter what I know now, being taught about god is how I ended up being a good person who knows right and wrong.

Funny how that this belief in god didn't stop all those slave owners but with me I wouldn't know to give to charity if this god concept wasn't taught to me.

I'm a lot confused now.

Obviously they were educated in religious concepts but it was with a twist that allowed them to own slaves on the pretense of taking care of the savages. You should read up on this phenomenon on how supposed christians actually rationalized they were doing Blacks a favor by enslaving them. It was the christian thing to do because Blacks were not actually human to them. If they had believed Blacks to be human then slavery would have never taken hold here in the US among christians. The two conflicting concepts would have caused cognitive dissonance. The ability to change their religion to support slavery is further proof of my theory. You shouldnt remain confused. Investigate these things and you will see I speak the truth.

Good, charity, kindness may all be religious concepts but goodness existed before religions. You'd have to prove no good existed until religion was invented.

You'd have to prove good toward people you have nothing invested in existed before religion was invented.

 

[talksalot]

For the practices of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.

They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.

Jeremiah 10:3-4

That is too comical, and it does come up in a search online so its real. Jeremiah 10:3 - 10:4

Oh where 'o where is Bile Ori'lie on this one. When will 'Christians' being their war on the Christmas tree? How embarrassing to stumble over one's own holy robes.

Its in the old testament. THat's the part of the Bible CHristians get to pick and choose from (besides the other part - the New testament)

This is a description of fashioning and idol....carving an image from wood and adorning it with silver and gold. God declared war on worshiping idols.

What's this then?

I'm pretty sure you know the difference in an idol and and icon.

 

[talksalot]

You are moving the goal posts. Who said anything about "against their nature?" If you want to protect your own life or property, it is beneficial to have a societal agreement respecting life and property with (temporal) punishment for violaters. Why does one need a supernatural entity for that to make sense?

ummm are there any examples of anyone trying to convince people to kill themselves or abstain from sex without a god as the reason? So your analogy fails there...you can't say that something that has never been tried doesn't work without a specific reason why. And people have been convinced to kill themselves by "friends" and others.

I'm not moving the goal posts. I am asking for proof to the contrary. Religion is social control and the best way to test that theory is to find a time when a human convinced a group of other humans to do something that is against their natural impulses without invoking god/religion at some point in the sales job.

No my analogy doesnt fail because you are talking about individuals. I'm talking about large groups of people being convinced to do something against their natural impulse by another entity.

Atheists can’t know the difference between right and wrong.
Note: The following answer is a generalization. Atheists are not a homogeneous group. There is no formal moral code resulting from a lack of belief. Atheists can and do subscribe to any number of ethical systems, or may simply decide such things for themselves.

Atheists generally derive their sense of right and wrong from an innate and reasoned understanding of which actions contribute towards a society most hospitable to continual well-being and personal fulfillment. They are accountable to their own conscience and to society at large. They do not require an absolute standard in order to make distinctions between the possible effects of their actions.

Atheists are attuned to the here and now. Their ethics are not derived from some reward or punishment after death, but from a rational consideration of the consequences in this life. Impulsive desires are compassionately, empathetically and intelligently weighed against long term personal and social goals.

As social animals that have evolved to want and give love, to have freedom and security, we have learned that we are safer, stronger and more prosperous in a successful group. Crimes are inherently anti-social behaviours that introduce needless risk and are antithetical to the long-term needs and goals of a happy, stable society.

Essentially all theists unknowingly exercise their innate ‘morality’ or conscience by picking and choosing which parts of their religion to follow.

See also: Enlightened Self-Interest, Secular Ethics, Secular Humanism, Secular Morality, Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Conscience, Morality – Good without Gods (a must watch) Sam Harris – Science and Morality (a must watch), Trust, Morality and Oxytocin (a must watch), Christopher Hitchens on Atheist morality.

I have no need for religion, I have a conscience.

You should look up the definition of conscience. Its a concept that comes from religion. It is the ability to see right from wrong. Who sets those standards? Ask yourself hard questions and then seek the answers.

Not one word about religion:

con·science
ˈkän(t)SHəns/
noun

1. an inner feeling or voice viewed as acting as a guide to the rightness or wrongness of one's behavior.
   "he had a guilty conscience about his desires"
   synonyms: sense of right and wrong, moral sense, inner voice;
   morals, standards,values, principles, ethics, beliefs;
   compunction, scruples, qualms
   "her conscience would not allow her to remain silent"

Yes my friend, religion has been around a long time. I see how the lines are blurred. Trust me, religion is totally unnecessary. Maybe not for the retarded masses today but maybe for future more evolved humans, god isn't needed. In fact god isn't needed now. What's god doing for these people other than helping them cope?

Did you know that the whites who helped free the slaves didn't let the blacks sit in the white pews? Funny god and the bible didn't tell them that was wrong.

And religious god fearing whites still don't want their daughters marrying black guys. When is god going to help them with that cognitive dissonance?

Right and wrong are religious concepts. You cant get away from that.

The concept of religion is necessary until people evolve. Without it more people will be doing more bad things. I know a lot of ex drug dealers for example. There number 1 excuse for stopping is that they didnt want to go to hell or have karma drop in for a visit.

If you're waiting for people to "evolve" into better beings you're wasting your time. Human nature hasn't changed and won't change no matter how much time passes.

 

[Asclepias]

I'm not moving the goal posts. I am asking for proof to the contrary. Religion is social control and the best way to test that theory is to find a time when a human convinced a group of other humans to do something that is against their natural impulses without invoking god/religion at some point in the sales job.

No my analogy doesnt fail because you are talking about individuals. I'm talking about large groups of people being convinced to do something against their natural impulse by another entity.

Atheists can’t know the difference between right and wrong.
Note: The following answer is a generalization. Atheists are not a homogeneous group. There is no formal moral code resulting from a lack of belief. Atheists can and do subscribe to any number of ethical systems, or may simply decide such things for themselves.

Atheists generally derive their sense of right and wrong from an innate and reasoned understanding of which actions contribute towards a society most hospitable to continual well-being and personal fulfillment. They are accountable to their own conscience and to society at large. They do not require an absolute standard in order to make distinctions between the possible effects of their actions.

Atheists are attuned to the here and now. Their ethics are not derived from some reward or punishment after death, but from a rational consideration of the consequences in this life. Impulsive desires are compassionately, empathetically and intelligently weighed against long term personal and social goals.

As social animals that have evolved to want and give love, to have freedom and security, we have learned that we are safer, stronger and more prosperous in a successful group. Crimes are inherently anti-social behaviours that introduce needless risk and are antithetical to the long-term needs and goals of a happy, stable society.

Essentially all theists unknowingly exercise their innate ‘morality’ or conscience by picking and choosing which parts of their religion to follow.

See also: Enlightened Self-Interest, Secular Ethics, Secular Humanism, Secular Morality, Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Conscience, Morality – Good without Gods (a must watch) Sam Harris – Science and Morality (a must watch), Trust, Morality and Oxytocin (a must watch), Christopher Hitchens on Atheist morality.

I have no need for religion, I have a conscience.

You should look up the definition of conscience. Its a concept that comes from religion. It is the ability to see right from wrong. Who sets those standards? Ask yourself hard questions and then seek the answers.

Not one word about religion:

con·science
ˈkän(t)SHəns/
noun

1. an inner feeling or voice viewed as acting as a guide to the rightness or wrongness of one's behavior.
   "he had a guilty conscience about his desires"
   synonyms: sense of right and wrong, moral sense, inner voice;
   morals, standards,values, principles, ethics, beliefs;
   compunction, scruples, qualms
   "her conscience would not allow her to remain silent"

Yes my friend, religion has been around a long time. I see how the lines are blurred. Trust me, religion is totally unnecessary. Maybe not for the retarded masses today but maybe for future more evolved humans, god isn't needed. In fact god isn't needed now. What's god doing for these people other than helping them cope?

Did you know that the whites who helped free the slaves didn't let the blacks sit in the white pews? Funny god and the bible didn't tell them that was wrong.

And religious god fearing whites still don't want their daughters marrying black guys. When is god going to help them with that cognitive dissonance?

Right and wrong are religious concepts. You cant get away from that.

The concept of religion is necessary until people evolve. Without it more people will be doing more bad things. I know a lot of ex drug dealers for example. There number 1 excuse for stopping is that they didnt want to go to hell or have karma drop in for a visit.

If you're waiting for people to "evolve" into better beings you're wasting your time. Human nature hasn't changed and won't change no matter how much time passes.

By evolution I mean our ability to override our human nature. I myself have grown from a violent individual to someone that is peaceful.

 

[sealybobo]

Atheists can’t know the difference between right and wrong.
Note: The following answer is a generalization. Atheists are not a homogeneous group. There is no formal moral code resulting from a lack of belief. Atheists can and do subscribe to any number of ethical systems, or may simply decide such things for themselves.

Atheists generally derive their sense of right and wrong from an innate and reasoned understanding of which actions contribute towards a society most hospitable to continual well-being and personal fulfillment. They are accountable to their own conscience and to society at large. They do not require an absolute standard in order to make distinctions between the possible effects of their actions.

Atheists are attuned to the here and now. Their ethics are not derived from some reward or punishment after death, but from a rational consideration of the consequences in this life. Impulsive desires are compassionately, empathetically and intelligently weighed against long term personal and social goals.

As social animals that have evolved to want and give love, to have freedom and security, we have learned that we are safer, stronger and more prosperous in a successful group. Crimes are inherently anti-social behaviours that introduce needless risk and are antithetical to the long-term needs and goals of a happy, stable society.

Essentially all theists unknowingly exercise their innate ‘morality’ or conscience by picking and choosing which parts of their religion to follow.

See also: Enlightened Self-Interest, Secular Ethics, Secular Humanism, Secular Morality, Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Conscience, Morality – Good without Gods (a must watch) Sam Harris – Science and Morality (a must watch), Trust, Morality and Oxytocin (a must watch), Christopher Hitchens on Atheist morality.

I have no need for religion, I have a conscience.

You should look up the definition of conscience. Its a concept that comes from religion. It is the ability to see right from wrong. Who sets those standards? Ask yourself hard questions and then seek the answers.

Not one word about religion:

con·science
ˈkän(t)SHəns/
noun

1. an inner feeling or voice viewed as acting as a guide to the rightness or wrongness of one's behavior.
   "he had a guilty conscience about his desires"
   synonyms: sense of right and wrong, moral sense, inner voice;
   morals, standards,values, principles, ethics, beliefs;
   compunction, scruples, qualms
   "her conscience would not allow her to remain silent"

Yes my friend, religion has been around a long time. I see how the lines are blurred. Trust me, religion is totally unnecessary. Maybe not for the retarded masses today but maybe for future more evolved humans, god isn't needed. In fact god isn't needed now. What's god doing for these people other than helping them cope?

Did you know that the whites who helped free the slaves didn't let the blacks sit in the white pews? Funny god and the bible didn't tell them that was wrong.

And religious god fearing whites still don't want their daughters marrying black guys. When is god going to help them with that cognitive dissonance?

Right and wrong are religious concepts. You cant get away from that.

The concept of religion is necessary until people evolve. Without it more people will be doing more bad things. I know a lot of ex drug dealers for example. There number 1 excuse for stopping is that they didnt want to go to hell or have karma drop in for a visit.

If you're waiting for people to "evolve" into better beings you're wasting your time. Human nature hasn't changed and won't change no matter how much time passes.

By evolution I mean our ability to override our human nature. I myself have grown from a violent individual to someone that is peaceful.

And I was raised my my ignorant ancestors who raised me with superstitious traditions and ancient beliefs and now I'm into facts, logic and science.

 

[talksalot]

Atheists can’t know the difference between right and wrong.
Note: The following answer is a generalization. Atheists are not a homogeneous group. There is no formal moral code resulting from a lack of belief. Atheists can and do subscribe to any number of ethical systems, or may simply decide such things for themselves.

Atheists generally derive their sense of right and wrong from an innate and reasoned understanding of which actions contribute towards a society most hospitable to continual well-being and personal fulfillment. They are accountable to their own conscience and to society at large. They do not require an absolute standard in order to make distinctions between the possible effects of their actions.

Atheists are attuned to the here and now. Their ethics are not derived from some reward or punishment after death, but from a rational consideration of the consequences in this life. Impulsive desires are compassionately, empathetically and intelligently weighed against long term personal and social goals.

As social animals that have evolved to want and give love, to have freedom and security, we have learned that we are safer, stronger and more prosperous in a successful group. Crimes are inherently anti-social behaviours that introduce needless risk and are antithetical to the long-term needs and goals of a happy, stable society.

Essentially all theists unknowingly exercise their innate ‘morality’ or conscience by picking and choosing which parts of their religion to follow.

See also: Enlightened Self-Interest, Secular Ethics, Secular Humanism, Secular Morality, Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Conscience, Morality – Good without Gods (a must watch) Sam Harris – Science and Morality (a must watch), Trust, Morality and Oxytocin (a must watch), Christopher Hitchens on Atheist morality.

I have no need for religion, I have a conscience.

You should look up the definition of conscience. Its a concept that comes from religion. It is the ability to see right from wrong. Who sets those standards? Ask yourself hard questions and then seek the answers.

Not one word about religion:

con·science
ˈkän(t)SHəns/
noun

1. an inner feeling or voice viewed as acting as a guide to the rightness or wrongness of one's behavior.
   "he had a guilty conscience about his desires"
   synonyms: sense of right and wrong, moral sense, inner voice;
   morals, standards,values, principles, ethics, beliefs;
   compunction, scruples, qualms
   "her conscience would not allow her to remain silent"

Yes my friend, religion has been around a long time. I see how the lines are blurred. Trust me, religion is totally unnecessary. Maybe not for the retarded masses today but maybe for future more evolved humans, god isn't needed. In fact god isn't needed now. What's god doing for these people other than helping them cope?

Did you know that the whites who helped free the slaves didn't let the blacks sit in the white pews? Funny god and the bible didn't tell them that was wrong.

And religious god fearing whites still don't want their daughters marrying black guys. When is god going to help them with that cognitive dissonance?

Right and wrong are religious concepts. You cant get away from that.

The concept of religion is necessary until people evolve. Without it more people will be doing more bad things. I know a lot of ex drug dealers for example. There number 1 excuse for stopping is that they didnt want to go to hell or have karma drop in for a visit.

If you're waiting for people to "evolve" into better beings you're wasting your time. Human nature hasn't changed and won't change no matter how much time passes.

By evolution I mean our ability to override our human nature. I myself have grown from a violent individual to someone that is peaceful.

Good for you. Individuals can choose to become better people, but I don't believe humanity is changing for the better just because of the passage of time.

 

[Asclepias]

You should look up the definition of conscience. Its a concept that comes from religion. It is the ability to see right from wrong. Who sets those standards? Ask yourself hard questions and then seek the answers.

Not one word about religion:

con·science
ˈkän(t)SHəns/
noun

1. an inner feeling or voice viewed as acting as a guide to the rightness or wrongness of one's behavior.
   "he had a guilty conscience about his desires"
   synonyms: sense of right and wrong, moral sense, inner voice;
   morals, standards,values, principles, ethics, beliefs;
   compunction, scruples, qualms
   "her conscience would not allow her to remain silent"

Yes my friend, religion has been around a long time. I see how the lines are blurred. Trust me, religion is totally unnecessary. Maybe not for the retarded masses today but maybe for future more evolved humans, god isn't needed. In fact god isn't needed now. What's god doing for these people other than helping them cope?

Did you know that the whites who helped free the slaves didn't let the blacks sit in the white pews? Funny god and the bible didn't tell them that was wrong.

And religious god fearing whites still don't want their daughters marrying black guys. When is god going to help them with that cognitive dissonance?

Right and wrong are religious concepts. You cant get away from that.

The concept of religion is necessary until people evolve. Without it more people will be doing more bad things. I know a lot of ex drug dealers for example. There number 1 excuse for stopping is that they didnt want to go to hell or have karma drop in for a visit.

If you're waiting for people to "evolve" into better beings you're wasting your time. Human nature hasn't changed and won't change no matter how much time passes.

By evolution I mean our ability to override our human nature. I myself have grown from a violent individual to someone that is peaceful.

Good for you. Individuals can choose to become better people, but I don't believe humanity is changing for the better just because of the passage of time.

Think of it like this. What came first? A trip to the moon or the science that made it possible? Everything significant has its foundation somewhere in the past and evolved from an idea into reality. The next generation builds on that and so on and so on. We may not see it our time but its coming.

 

[sealybobo]

Not one word about religion:

con·science
ˈkän(t)SHəns/
noun

1. an inner feeling or voice viewed as acting as a guide to the rightness or wrongness of one's behavior.
   "he had a guilty conscience about his desires"
   synonyms: sense of right and wrong, moral sense, inner voice;
   morals, standards,values, principles, ethics, beliefs;
   compunction, scruples, qualms
   "her conscience would not allow her to remain silent"

Yes my friend, religion has been around a long time. I see how the lines are blurred. Trust me, religion is totally unnecessary. Maybe not for the retarded masses today but maybe for future more evolved humans, god isn't needed. In fact god isn't needed now. What's god doing for these people other than helping them cope?

Did you know that the whites who helped free the slaves didn't let the blacks sit in the white pews? Funny god and the bible didn't tell them that was wrong.

And religious god fearing whites still don't want their daughters marrying black guys. When is god going to help them with that cognitive dissonance?

Right and wrong are religious concepts. You cant get away from that.

The concept of religion is necessary until people evolve. Without it more people will be doing more bad things. I know a lot of ex drug dealers for example. There number 1 excuse for stopping is that they didnt want to go to hell or have karma drop in for a visit.

If you're waiting for people to "evolve" into better beings you're wasting your time. Human nature hasn't changed and won't change no matter how much time passes.

By evolution I mean our ability to override our human nature. I myself have grown from a violent individual to someone that is peaceful.

Good for you. Individuals can choose to become better people, but I don't believe humanity is changing for the better just because of the passage of time.

Think of it like this. What came first? A trip to the moon or the science that made it possible? Everything significant has its foundation somewhere in the past and evolved from an idea into reality. The next generation builds on that and so on and so on. We may not see it our time but its coming.

Just like evolution it happens so slowly you can't observe the change but you know it has happened and continues to happen.

 

[Arianrhod]

 

[sealybobo]

The churches have always been in bed with the rich. The kings were the head of the church and it was their divine right to collect taxes. They even wrote in the rules, give unto Caesar... Now we don't have kings in America but we do have the rich and one of the ways they control the masses is with religions.

Just like our politicians cater most to their largest doners so do churches.

 

[whitehall]

Check out the Koran for further updates.

 

[talksalot]

According to Snopes:

So while it's true that Iceland jailed bankers, tentatively recovered after being badly affected by 2008 global financial meltdown, and has historically enjoyed remarkably low rates of violent crime, the country does not have a "majority atheist population." Moreover, none of the nation-ranking metrics by which Iceland is highly ranked relates to religion (or lack of faith) in any ostensible way.

Eighty percent of Icelanders identify as Lutherans.

Iceland, a country where gun ownership is widespread, has one of the lowest violent crime rates in the world.

Icelandish Claims