God declares war on Christmas

[Asclepias]

Religions are pretty much a good thing even if they are not all real. Its the people that practice the religions that mess it up.

Define "pretty much a good thing".

A ‘militant’ atheist will debate in a University theatre or appeal for the separation of religion and government. A militant theist will kill doctors, stone women to death,incite religious war, restrict sexual and gender equality and convince children they are flawed and worthless – all under the instruction of their imagined ‘god’ or holy book.

Without a framework of moral directives backed by the threat of karma or hell, people would simply be more animalistic than they are now.

I don't believe we need a lie to be good. And a lot of good this lie is doing keeping us from being "animalistic". Think of all the Christians that owned your ancestors. But I guess if it wasn't for god maybe they'd have had no reason to set them free. Other than it's obviously mean.

I thought about this the other day. Just look at how us atheists treat gays. We say live and let live. So even without god we know to treat them better. But look at the bible thumping anti gays. Lot of good their holy book is doing making them better people. Maybe we just need a new book. Call it the Newest Testament.

“A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it.” – David Stevens

There were no true christians that owned my ancestors. A true christian would have only owned any of my ancestors as a formality to keep them safe from other enslavers much like most of the Black slave owners did.

Even as an atheist you were exposed to the concepts that govern your behavior and founded in religion. You may not practice a religion or believe in a god but you absolutely believe in the aspects of religion that are deemed "good".

Religion taught me to hate gays. I don't hate gays. I guess religions grip on me isn't as good as you think.

Do you think people didn't know it was wrong to kill before Moses said god commanded it?

What came first morality or religion? I say morality. Religion came much later.

That may be one lesson religion taught you as well. Has nothing to do with the good aspects of religion you picked up.

Religion is way older than Moses. Morality comes from religion.

 

[Asclepias]

Religions are pretty much a good thing even if they are not all real. Its the people that practice the religions that mess it up.

Define "pretty much a good thing".

A ‘militant’ atheist will debate in a University theatre or appeal for the separation of religion and government. A militant theist will kill doctors, stone women to death,incite religious war, restrict sexual and gender equality and convince children they are flawed and worthless – all under the instruction of their imagined ‘god’ or holy book.

Without a framework of moral directives backed by the threat of karma or hell, people would simply be more animalistic than they are now.

I don't believe we need a lie to be good. And a lot of good this lie is doing keeping us from being "animalistic". Think of all the Christians that owned your ancestors. But I guess if it wasn't for god maybe they'd have had no reason to set them free. Other than it's obviously mean.

I thought about this the other day. Just look at how us atheists treat gays. We say live and let live. So even without god we know to treat them better. But look at the bible thumping anti gays. Lot of good their holy book is doing making them better people. Maybe we just need a new book. Call it the Newest Testament.

“A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it.” – David Stevens

There were no true christians that owned my ancestors. A true christian would have only owned any of my ancestors as a formality to keep them safe from other enslavers much like most of the Black slave owners did.

Even as an atheist you were exposed to the concepts that govern your behavior and founded in religion. You may not practice a religion or believe in a god but you absolutely believe in the aspects of religion that are deemed "good".

Of course a true christian would never own a slave but how many "true" christians do you think existed back then? And how many do you think exist today? You believe most whites are evil. How many of them do you think are "true" christians?

There are never that many true christians as the evil ones always are the majority.

 

[Asclepias]

As an agnostic you aren't sure who to throw stones at.

Everyone. All religions are based on false premise. There are about 4,000 religions on Earth currently and every person that believes in one throw stones at the other 3,999.

I just throw stones at one more than they do.

Religions are pretty much a good thing even if they are not all real. Its the people that practice the religions that mess it up.

Define "pretty much a good thing".

A ‘militant’ atheist will debate in a University theatre or appeal for the separation of religion and government. A militant theist will kill doctors, stone women to death,incite religious war, restrict sexual and gender equality and convince children they are flawed and worthless – all under the instruction of their imagined ‘god’ or holy book.

Without a framework of moral directives backed by the threat of karma or hell, people would simply be more animalistic than they are now.

Why? If one doesn't believe in an afterlife, it seems to me that earthly punishment is quite enough.

Belief (or worry) in an after life is what separates humans from animals. At least thats what the people that define what makes humans human say. Its explained as a sense of awareness of ones mortality. The ability to wonder where one goes or what happens after you expire is what makes us human.

 

[sealybobo]

For the practices of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.

They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.

Jeremiah 10:3-4

That is too comical, and it does come up in a search online so its real. Jeremiah 10:3 - 10:4

Oh where 'o where is Bile Ori'lie on this one. When will 'Christians' being their war on the Christmas tree? How embarrassing to stumble over one's own holy robes.

Its in the old testament. THat's the part of the Bible CHristians get to pick and choose from (besides the other part - the New testament)

You mean like you just did right there, when you intentionally misrepresented scripture to make a point?

What is it about anti-Christian zealots that think that just because they are dishonest know-nothings, that everybody else is? Just because you have no understanding of biblical concepts doesn't mean that everybody who does must be as clueless as you are.

If I ask 10 different Christians their interpretation of scripture I get 10 different understandings. So it seems that not even you guys completely get it. At least you are not all on the same page.

“You can tell you’ve created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.” – Anne Lamott

 

[sealybobo]

Everyone. All religions are based on false premise. There are about 4,000 religions on Earth currently and every person that believes in one throw stones at the other 3,999.

I just throw stones at one more than they do.

Religions are pretty much a good thing even if they are not all real. Its the people that practice the religions that mess it up.

Define "pretty much a good thing".

A ‘militant’ atheist will debate in a University theatre or appeal for the separation of religion and government. A militant theist will kill doctors, stone women to death,incite religious war, restrict sexual and gender equality and convince children they are flawed and worthless – all under the instruction of their imagined ‘god’ or holy book.

Without a framework of moral directives backed by the threat of karma or hell, people would simply be more animalistic than they are now.

Why? If one doesn't believe in an afterlife, it seems to me that earthly punishment is quite enough.

Belief (or worry) in an after life is what separates humans from animals. At least thats what the people that define what makes humans human say. Its explained as a sense of awareness of ones mortality. The ability to wonder where one goes or what happens after you expire is what makes us human.

Believing you are immortal is not dealing with mortality. LOL.

“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.” – Carl Sagan

 

[IsaacNewton]

Define "pretty much a good thing".

A ‘militant’ atheist will debate in a University theatre or appeal for the separation of religion and government. A militant theist will kill doctors, stone women to death,incite religious war, restrict sexual and gender equality and convince children they are flawed and worthless – all under the instruction of their imagined ‘god’ or holy book.

Without a framework of moral directives backed by the threat of karma or hell, people would simply be more animalistic than they are now.

I don't believe we need a lie to be good. And a lot of good this lie is doing keeping us from being "animalistic". Think of all the Christians that owned your ancestors. But I guess if it wasn't for god maybe they'd have had no reason to set them free. Other than it's obviously mean.

I thought about this the other day. Just look at how us atheists treat gays. We say live and let live. So even without god we know to treat them better. But look at the bible thumping anti gays. Lot of good their holy book is doing making them better people. Maybe we just need a new book. Call it the Newest Testament.

“A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it.” – David Stevens

There were no true christians that owned my ancestors. A true christian would have only owned any of my ancestors as a formality to keep them safe from other enslavers much like most of the Black slave owners did.

Even as an atheist you were exposed to the concepts that govern your behavior and founded in religion. You may not practice a religion or believe in a god but you absolutely believe in the aspects of religion that are deemed "good".

Religion taught me to hate gays. I don't hate gays. I guess religions grip on me isn't as good as you think.

Do you think people didn't know it was wrong to kill before Moses said god commanded it?

What came first morality or religion? I say morality. Religion came much later.

That may be one lesson religion taught you as well. Has nothing to do with the good aspects of religion you picked up.

Religion is way older than Moses. Morality comes from religion.

Morality does not come from religion. Animal species do not kill each other at their whim. Even when fighting over a mate they do not usually kill each other. If any species were constantly killing members of their own species it would go extinct rather quickly as it would render the gene pool so small offspring would soon be mutant freaks that couldn't survive. We saw a little of this with the families of Europe that controlled the various monarchies for hundreds of years. They bred with their own sisters and cousins and many of them developed bizarre diseases associated with depleted genetic diversity.

If religion was what made people 'moral' then every person that didn't have a religion would be out doing whatever they want. They don't because human societies set rules as laws, and if you don't follow those rules you lose your freedom. No religion. Even if the laws contain the same reasoning as something a religion espouses that doesn't mean it comes from religion.

But, the 'religion is the only thing that causes morality' is one of those buzz phrases that religious folk like to hold on to because it makes them feel good.

Do whatever makes you feel good.

 

[Asclepias]

Religions are pretty much a good thing even if they are not all real. Its the people that practice the religions that mess it up.

Define "pretty much a good thing".

A ‘militant’ atheist will debate in a University theatre or appeal for the separation of religion and government. A militant theist will kill doctors, stone women to death,incite religious war, restrict sexual and gender equality and convince children they are flawed and worthless – all under the instruction of their imagined ‘god’ or holy book.

Without a framework of moral directives backed by the threat of karma or hell, people would simply be more animalistic than they are now.

Why? If one doesn't believe in an afterlife, it seems to me that earthly punishment is quite enough.

Belief (or worry) in an after life is what separates humans from animals. At least thats what the people that define what makes humans human say. Its explained as a sense of awareness of ones mortality. The ability to wonder where one goes or what happens after you expire is what makes us human.

Believing you are immortal is not dealing with mortality. LOL.

“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.” – Carl Sagan

Actually that statement is false. Believing you are immortal is a way of dealing with mortality. Why construct the idea of immortality at all if not to ease the worry of dying?

 

[Asclepias]

Without a framework of moral directives backed by the threat of karma or hell, people would simply be more animalistic than they are now.

I don't believe we need a lie to be good. And a lot of good this lie is doing keeping us from being "animalistic". Think of all the Christians that owned your ancestors. But I guess if it wasn't for god maybe they'd have had no reason to set them free. Other than it's obviously mean.

I thought about this the other day. Just look at how us atheists treat gays. We say live and let live. So even without god we know to treat them better. But look at the bible thumping anti gays. Lot of good their holy book is doing making them better people. Maybe we just need a new book. Call it the Newest Testament.

“A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it.” – David Stevens

There were no true christians that owned my ancestors. A true christian would have only owned any of my ancestors as a formality to keep them safe from other enslavers much like most of the Black slave owners did.

Even as an atheist you were exposed to the concepts that govern your behavior and founded in religion. You may not practice a religion or believe in a god but you absolutely believe in the aspects of religion that are deemed "good".

Religion taught me to hate gays. I don't hate gays. I guess religions grip on me isn't as good as you think.

Do you think people didn't know it was wrong to kill before Moses said god commanded it?

What came first morality or religion? I say morality. Religion came much later.

That may be one lesson religion taught you as well. Has nothing to do with the good aspects of religion you picked up.

Religion is way older than Moses. Morality comes from religion.

Morality does not come from religion. Animal species do not kill each other at their whim. Even when fighting over a mate they do not usually kill each other. If any species were constantly killing members of their own species it would go extinct rather quickly as it would render the gene pool so small offspring would soon be mutant freaks that couldn't survive. We saw a little of this with the families of Europe that controlled the various monarchies for hundreds of years. They bred with their own sisters and cousins and many of them developed bizarre diseases associated with depleted genetic diversity.

If religion was what made people 'moral' then every person that didn't have a religion would be out doing whatever they want. They don't because human societies set rules as laws, and if you don't follow those rules you lose your freedom. No religion. Even if the laws contain the same reasoning as something a religion espouses that doesn't mean it comes from religion.

But, the 'religion is the only thing that causes morality' is one of those buzz phrases that religious folk like to hold on to because it makes them feel good.

Do whatever makes you feel good.

Animals kill each other all the time to eat, gain larger territory, and mate. Some kill just for the sheer pleasure of it. Just because they dont do it all the time doesnt mean much. There are natural obstructions to killing off their own kind. Distance, mating, banding together for survival, and avoidance of injury. People are different from animals because they worry about what happens after they are dead. There is nothing at all that would stop man from killing each other off besides morality. Lets break this down....

I kill you and I get all your shit. Good deal for me bad deal for you. Whats really stopping me besides me worrying about what judgement or karma I may receive in this life or after I am dead?

Like I told Sealy. You adhere to what you were taught and retained about religion no matter how much you tell yourself its not true. Its an ingrained habit. If it was not a habit you would simply do whatever you wanted to do including killing.. Every person on the face of the planet knows about some religion and its prohibitions about doing certain things.

 

[sealybobo]

Without a framework of moral directives backed by the threat of karma or hell, people would simply be more animalistic than they are now.

I don't believe we need a lie to be good. And a lot of good this lie is doing keeping us from being "animalistic". Think of all the Christians that owned your ancestors. But I guess if it wasn't for god maybe they'd have had no reason to set them free. Other than it's obviously mean.

I thought about this the other day. Just look at how us atheists treat gays. We say live and let live. So even without god we know to treat them better. But look at the bible thumping anti gays. Lot of good their holy book is doing making them better people. Maybe we just need a new book. Call it the Newest Testament.

“A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it.” – David Stevens

There were no true christians that owned my ancestors. A true christian would have only owned any of my ancestors as a formality to keep them safe from other enslavers much like most of the Black slave owners did.

Even as an atheist you were exposed to the concepts that govern your behavior and founded in religion. You may not practice a religion or believe in a god but you absolutely believe in the aspects of religion that are deemed "good".

Religion taught me to hate gays. I don't hate gays. I guess religions grip on me isn't as good as you think.

Do you think people didn't know it was wrong to kill before Moses said god commanded it?

What came first morality or religion? I say morality. Religion came much later.

That may be one lesson religion taught you as well. Has nothing to do with the good aspects of religion you picked up.

Religion is way older than Moses. Morality comes from religion.

Morality does not come from religion. Animal species do not kill each other at their whim. Even when fighting over a mate they do not usually kill each other. If any species were constantly killing members of their own species it would go extinct rather quickly as it would render the gene pool so small offspring would soon be mutant freaks that couldn't survive. We saw a little of this with the families of Europe that controlled the various monarchies for hundreds of years. They bred with their own sisters and cousins and many of them developed bizarre diseases associated with depleted genetic diversity.

If religion was what made people 'moral' then every person that didn't have a religion would be out doing whatever they want. They don't because human societies set rules as laws, and if you don't follow those rules you lose your freedom. No religion. Even if the laws contain the same reasoning as something a religion espouses that doesn't mean it comes from religion.

But, the 'religion is the only thing that causes morality' is one of those buzz phrases that religious folk like to hold on to because it makes them feel good.

Do whatever makes you feel good.

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” – Steven Weinberg

People need to believe in god / Without god people will do bad things.
Argument from adverse consequences.

Just because something is perceived as having good consequences if it is true, does not actually make it true.

The fact that religiously free societies with a proportionally large number of atheists are generally more peaceful than otherwise is evidence this perception is incorrect.

 

[sealybobo]

Define "pretty much a good thing".

A ‘militant’ atheist will debate in a University theatre or appeal for the separation of religion and government. A militant theist will kill doctors, stone women to death,incite religious war, restrict sexual and gender equality and convince children they are flawed and worthless – all under the instruction of their imagined ‘god’ or holy book.

Without a framework of moral directives backed by the threat of karma or hell, people would simply be more animalistic than they are now.

Why? If one doesn't believe in an afterlife, it seems to me that earthly punishment is quite enough.

Belief (or worry) in an after life is what separates humans from animals. At least thats what the people that define what makes humans human say. Its explained as a sense of awareness of ones mortality. The ability to wonder where one goes or what happens after you expire is what makes us human.

Believing you are immortal is not dealing with mortality. LOL.

“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.” – Carl Sagan

Actually that statement is false. Believing you are immortal is a way of dealing with mortality. Why construct the idea of immortality at all if not to ease the worry of dying?

Argument from wishful thinking. The primary psychological role of traditional religion is deathist rationalization, that is, rationalizing the tragedy of death as a good thing to alleviate the anxiety of mortality.

 

[Asclepias]

I don't believe we need a lie to be good. And a lot of good this lie is doing keeping us from being "animalistic". Think of all the Christians that owned your ancestors. But I guess if it wasn't for god maybe they'd have had no reason to set them free. Other than it's obviously mean.

I thought about this the other day. Just look at how us atheists treat gays. We say live and let live. So even without god we know to treat them better. But look at the bible thumping anti gays. Lot of good their holy book is doing making them better people. Maybe we just need a new book. Call it the Newest Testament.

“A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it.” – David Stevens

There were no true christians that owned my ancestors. A true christian would have only owned any of my ancestors as a formality to keep them safe from other enslavers much like most of the Black slave owners did.

Even as an atheist you were exposed to the concepts that govern your behavior and founded in religion. You may not practice a religion or believe in a god but you absolutely believe in the aspects of religion that are deemed "good".

Religion taught me to hate gays. I don't hate gays. I guess religions grip on me isn't as good as you think.

Do you think people didn't know it was wrong to kill before Moses said god commanded it?

What came first morality or religion? I say morality. Religion came much later.

That may be one lesson religion taught you as well. Has nothing to do with the good aspects of religion you picked up.

Religion is way older than Moses. Morality comes from religion.

Morality does not come from religion. Animal species do not kill each other at their whim. Even when fighting over a mate they do not usually kill each other. If any species were constantly killing members of their own species it would go extinct rather quickly as it would render the gene pool so small offspring would soon be mutant freaks that couldn't survive. We saw a little of this with the families of Europe that controlled the various monarchies for hundreds of years. They bred with their own sisters and cousins and many of them developed bizarre diseases associated with depleted genetic diversity.

If religion was what made people 'moral' then every person that didn't have a religion would be out doing whatever they want. They don't because human societies set rules as laws, and if you don't follow those rules you lose your freedom. No religion. Even if the laws contain the same reasoning as something a religion espouses that doesn't mean it comes from religion.

But, the 'religion is the only thing that causes morality' is one of those buzz phrases that religious folk like to hold on to because it makes them feel good.

Do whatever makes you feel good.

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” – Steven Weinberg

People need to believe in god / Without god people will do bad things.
Argument from adverse consequences.

Just because something is perceived as having good consequences if it is true, does not actually make it true.

The fact that religiously free societies with a proportionally large number of atheists are generally more peaceful than otherwise is evidence this perception is incorrect.

Without belief in some god/religion etc more people would be doing more things others perceive as bad.

 

[sealybobo]

I don't believe we need a lie to be good. And a lot of good this lie is doing keeping us from being "animalistic". Think of all the Christians that owned your ancestors. But I guess if it wasn't for god maybe they'd have had no reason to set them free. Other than it's obviously mean.

I thought about this the other day. Just look at how us atheists treat gays. We say live and let live. So even without god we know to treat them better. But look at the bible thumping anti gays. Lot of good their holy book is doing making them better people. Maybe we just need a new book. Call it the Newest Testament.

“A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it.” – David Stevens

There were no true christians that owned my ancestors. A true christian would have only owned any of my ancestors as a formality to keep them safe from other enslavers much like most of the Black slave owners did.

Even as an atheist you were exposed to the concepts that govern your behavior and founded in religion. You may not practice a religion or believe in a god but you absolutely believe in the aspects of religion that are deemed "good".

Religion taught me to hate gays. I don't hate gays. I guess religions grip on me isn't as good as you think.

Do you think people didn't know it was wrong to kill before Moses said god commanded it?

What came first morality or religion? I say morality. Religion came much later.

That may be one lesson religion taught you as well. Has nothing to do with the good aspects of religion you picked up.

Religion is way older than Moses. Morality comes from religion.

Morality does not come from religion. Animal species do not kill each other at their whim. Even when fighting over a mate they do not usually kill each other. If any species were constantly killing members of their own species it would go extinct rather quickly as it would render the gene pool so small offspring would soon be mutant freaks that couldn't survive. We saw a little of this with the families of Europe that controlled the various monarchies for hundreds of years. They bred with their own sisters and cousins and many of them developed bizarre diseases associated with depleted genetic diversity.

If religion was what made people 'moral' then every person that didn't have a religion would be out doing whatever they want. They don't because human societies set rules as laws, and if you don't follow those rules you lose your freedom. No religion. Even if the laws contain the same reasoning as something a religion espouses that doesn't mean it comes from religion.

But, the 'religion is the only thing that causes morality' is one of those buzz phrases that religious folk like to hold on to because it makes them feel good.

Do whatever makes you feel good.

Animals kill each other all the time to eat, gain larger territory, and mate. Some kill just for the sheer pleasure of it. Just because they dont do it all the time doesnt mean much. There are natural obstructions to killing off their own kind. Distance, mating, banding together for survival, and avoidance of injury. People are different from animals because they worry about what happens after they are dead. There is nothing at all that would stop man from killing each other off besides morality. Lets break this down....

I kill you and I get all your shit. Good deal for me bad deal for you. Whats really stopping me besides me worrying about what judgement or karma I may receive in this life or after I am dead?

Like I told Sealy. You adhere to what you were taught and retained about religion no matter how much you tell yourself its not true. Its an ingrained habit. If it was not a habit you would simply do whatever you wanted to do including killing.. Every person on the face of the planet knows about some religion and its prohibitions about doing certain things.

Ever see Unforgiven?

The Schofield Kid: [after killing a man for the first time] It don't seem real... how he ain't gonna never breathe again, ever... how he's dead. And the other one too. All on account of pulling a trigger.

Will Munny: It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have.

The Schofield Kid: Yeah, well, I guess they had it coming.

Will Munny: We all got it coming, kid.

 

[Asclepias]

Without a framework of moral directives backed by the threat of karma or hell, people would simply be more animalistic than they are now.

Why? If one doesn't believe in an afterlife, it seems to me that earthly punishment is quite enough.

Belief (or worry) in an after life is what separates humans from animals. At least thats what the people that define what makes humans human say. Its explained as a sense of awareness of ones mortality. The ability to wonder where one goes or what happens after you expire is what makes us human.

Believing you are immortal is not dealing with mortality. LOL.

“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.” – Carl Sagan

Actually that statement is false. Believing you are immortal is a way of dealing with mortality. Why construct the idea of immortality at all if not to ease the worry of dying?

Argument from wishful thinking. The primary psychological role of traditional religion is deathist rationalization, that is, rationalizing the tragedy of death as a good thing to alleviate the anxiety of mortality.

You basically just reiterated my argument.

 

[sealybobo]

There were no true christians that owned my ancestors. A true christian would have only owned any of my ancestors as a formality to keep them safe from other enslavers much like most of the Black slave owners did.

Even as an atheist you were exposed to the concepts that govern your behavior and founded in religion. You may not practice a religion or believe in a god but you absolutely believe in the aspects of religion that are deemed "good".

Religion taught me to hate gays. I don't hate gays. I guess religions grip on me isn't as good as you think.

Do you think people didn't know it was wrong to kill before Moses said god commanded it?

What came first morality or religion? I say morality. Religion came much later.

That may be one lesson religion taught you as well. Has nothing to do with the good aspects of religion you picked up.

Religion is way older than Moses. Morality comes from religion.

Morality does not come from religion. Animal species do not kill each other at their whim. Even when fighting over a mate they do not usually kill each other. If any species were constantly killing members of their own species it would go extinct rather quickly as it would render the gene pool so small offspring would soon be mutant freaks that couldn't survive. We saw a little of this with the families of Europe that controlled the various monarchies for hundreds of years. They bred with their own sisters and cousins and many of them developed bizarre diseases associated with depleted genetic diversity.

If religion was what made people 'moral' then every person that didn't have a religion would be out doing whatever they want. They don't because human societies set rules as laws, and if you don't follow those rules you lose your freedom. No religion. Even if the laws contain the same reasoning as something a religion espouses that doesn't mean it comes from religion.

But, the 'religion is the only thing that causes morality' is one of those buzz phrases that religious folk like to hold on to because it makes them feel good.

Do whatever makes you feel good.

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” – Steven Weinberg

People need to believe in god / Without god people will do bad things.
Argument from adverse consequences.

Just because something is perceived as having good consequences if it is true, does not actually make it true.

The fact that religiously free societies with a proportionally large number of atheists are generally more peaceful than otherwise is evidence this perception is incorrect.

Without belief in some god/religion etc more people would be doing more things others perceive as bad.

It doesn't work that way on me. For example, you'll never see me shoot up a Planned Parenthood over atheism.

I don't believe that. I don't think you are giving humans enough credit. I know right now you are probably right. I know humans today are sheep and probably need big brother but I hope future humans don't. I don't. And I don't see how it is necessary.

But religion or god does get a lot of people to do good or at least try to be good. I get what you are saying. Religion isn't all bad.

 

[sealybobo]

Why? If one doesn't believe in an afterlife, it seems to me that earthly punishment is quite enough.

Belief (or worry) in an after life is what separates humans from animals. At least thats what the people that define what makes humans human say. Its explained as a sense of awareness of ones mortality. The ability to wonder where one goes or what happens after you expire is what makes us human.

Believing you are immortal is not dealing with mortality. LOL.

“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.” – Carl Sagan

Actually that statement is false. Believing you are immortal is a way of dealing with mortality. Why construct the idea of immortality at all if not to ease the worry of dying?

Argument from wishful thinking. The primary psychological role of traditional religion is deathist rationalization, that is, rationalizing the tragedy of death as a good thing to alleviate the anxiety of mortality.

You basically just reiterated my argument.

No, you basically reiterated point number 28 on why there is no god.

Why there is no god

 

[Asclepias]

Religion taught me to hate gays. I don't hate gays. I guess religions grip on me isn't as good as you think.

Do you think people didn't know it was wrong to kill before Moses said god commanded it?

What came first morality or religion? I say morality. Religion came much later.

That may be one lesson religion taught you as well. Has nothing to do with the good aspects of religion you picked up.

Religion is way older than Moses. Morality comes from religion.

Morality does not come from religion. Animal species do not kill each other at their whim. Even when fighting over a mate they do not usually kill each other. If any species were constantly killing members of their own species it would go extinct rather quickly as it would render the gene pool so small offspring would soon be mutant freaks that couldn't survive. We saw a little of this with the families of Europe that controlled the various monarchies for hundreds of years. They bred with their own sisters and cousins and many of them developed bizarre diseases associated with depleted genetic diversity.

If religion was what made people 'moral' then every person that didn't have a religion would be out doing whatever they want. They don't because human societies set rules as laws, and if you don't follow those rules you lose your freedom. No religion. Even if the laws contain the same reasoning as something a religion espouses that doesn't mean it comes from religion.

But, the 'religion is the only thing that causes morality' is one of those buzz phrases that religious folk like to hold on to because it makes them feel good.

Do whatever makes you feel good.

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” – Steven Weinberg

People need to believe in god / Without god people will do bad things.
Argument from adverse consequences.

Just because something is perceived as having good consequences if it is true, does not actually make it true.

The fact that religiously free societies with a proportionally large number of atheists are generally more peaceful than otherwise is evidence this perception is incorrect.

Without belief in some god/religion etc more people would be doing more things others perceive as bad.

It doesn't work that way on me. For example, you'll never see me shoot up a Planned Parenthood over atheism.

I don't believe that. I don't think you are giving humans enough credit. I know right now you are probably right. I know humans today are sheep and probably need big brother but I hope future humans don't. I don't. And I don't see how it is necessary.

But religion or god does get a lot of people to do good or at least try to be good. I get what you are saying. Religion isn't all bad.

Thats because you were taught it was wrong. If you were never taught it was wrong and you viewed them as a threat big enough to go to jail for what would stop you? The only people not subject to guilt (which comes from religion), are sociopaths. Break everything down to its base. Watch a toddler. They dont give a shit nor do they feel guilty.

 

[Asclepias]

Belief (or worry) in an after life is what separates humans from animals. At least thats what the people that define what makes humans human say. Its explained as a sense of awareness of ones mortality. The ability to wonder where one goes or what happens after you expire is what makes us human.

Believing you are immortal is not dealing with mortality. LOL.

“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.” – Carl Sagan

Actually that statement is false. Believing you are immortal is a way of dealing with mortality. Why construct the idea of immortality at all if not to ease the worry of dying?

Argument from wishful thinking. The primary psychological role of traditional religion is deathist rationalization, that is, rationalizing the tragedy of death as a good thing to alleviate the anxiety of mortality.

You basically just reiterated my argument.

No, you basically reiterated point number 28 on why there is no god.

Why there is no god

What are you talking about? I said people believe in immortality to deal with the fact of mortality. The concept doesnt depend on proving god is real. Thats just part of the bargain.

 

[sealybobo]

That may be one lesson religion taught you as well. Has nothing to do with the good aspects of religion you picked up.

Religion is way older than Moses. Morality comes from religion.

Morality does not come from religion. Animal species do not kill each other at their whim. Even when fighting over a mate they do not usually kill each other. If any species were constantly killing members of their own species it would go extinct rather quickly as it would render the gene pool so small offspring would soon be mutant freaks that couldn't survive. We saw a little of this with the families of Europe that controlled the various monarchies for hundreds of years. They bred with their own sisters and cousins and many of them developed bizarre diseases associated with depleted genetic diversity.

If religion was what made people 'moral' then every person that didn't have a religion would be out doing whatever they want. They don't because human societies set rules as laws, and if you don't follow those rules you lose your freedom. No religion. Even if the laws contain the same reasoning as something a religion espouses that doesn't mean it comes from religion.

But, the 'religion is the only thing that causes morality' is one of those buzz phrases that religious folk like to hold on to because it makes them feel good.

Do whatever makes you feel good.

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” – Steven Weinberg

People need to believe in god / Without god people will do bad things.
Argument from adverse consequences.

Just because something is perceived as having good consequences if it is true, does not actually make it true.

The fact that religiously free societies with a proportionally large number of atheists are generally more peaceful than otherwise is evidence this perception is incorrect.

Without belief in some god/religion etc more people would be doing more things others perceive as bad.

It doesn't work that way on me. For example, you'll never see me shoot up a Planned Parenthood over atheism.

I don't believe that. I don't think you are giving humans enough credit. I know right now you are probably right. I know humans today are sheep and probably need big brother but I hope future humans don't. I don't. And I don't see how it is necessary.

But religion or god does get a lot of people to do good or at least try to be good. I get what you are saying. Religion isn't all bad.

Thats because you were taught it was wrong. If you were never taught it was wrong and you viewed them as a threat big enough to go to jail for what would stop you? The only people not subject to guilt (which comes from religion), are sociopaths. Break everything down to its base. Watch a toddler. They dont give a shit nor do they feel guilty.

I don't know what to tell you other than I really don't believe there is a god that created us and cares about us. If something created this universe it too dies. All things die. I truly believe that.

Now, that being said, I do every once in awhile catch myself saying, "oh thank god", so I do get what you mean. Another guy said, "how can you be thankful without god?" Who are you thanking?

Well I am thankful I'm not the only atheist on the planet. Should I thank God for that?

 

[sealybobo]

That may be one lesson religion taught you as well. Has nothing to do with the good aspects of religion you picked up.

Religion is way older than Moses. Morality comes from religion.

Morality does not come from religion. Animal species do not kill each other at their whim. Even when fighting over a mate they do not usually kill each other. If any species were constantly killing members of their own species it would go extinct rather quickly as it would render the gene pool so small offspring would soon be mutant freaks that couldn't survive. We saw a little of this with the families of Europe that controlled the various monarchies for hundreds of years. They bred with their own sisters and cousins and many of them developed bizarre diseases associated with depleted genetic diversity.

If religion was what made people 'moral' then every person that didn't have a religion would be out doing whatever they want. They don't because human societies set rules as laws, and if you don't follow those rules you lose your freedom. No religion. Even if the laws contain the same reasoning as something a religion espouses that doesn't mean it comes from religion.

But, the 'religion is the only thing that causes morality' is one of those buzz phrases that religious folk like to hold on to because it makes them feel good.

Do whatever makes you feel good.

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” – Steven Weinberg

People need to believe in god / Without god people will do bad things.
Argument from adverse consequences.

Just because something is perceived as having good consequences if it is true, does not actually make it true.

The fact that religiously free societies with a proportionally large number of atheists are generally more peaceful than otherwise is evidence this perception is incorrect.

Without belief in some god/religion etc more people would be doing more things others perceive as bad.

It doesn't work that way on me. For example, you'll never see me shoot up a Planned Parenthood over atheism.

I don't believe that. I don't think you are giving humans enough credit. I know right now you are probably right. I know humans today are sheep and probably need big brother but I hope future humans don't. I don't. And I don't see how it is necessary.

But religion or god does get a lot of people to do good or at least try to be good. I get what you are saying. Religion isn't all bad.

Thats because you were taught it was wrong. If you were never taught it was wrong and you viewed them as a threat big enough to go to jail for what would stop you? The only people not subject to guilt (which comes from religion), are sociopaths. Break everything down to its base. Watch a toddler. They dont give a shit nor do they feel guilty.

I could never rape a woman. Not because I'd be afraid I would burn in hell for eternity or get caught but because I would feel bad hurting someone. I have empathy. I just wouldn't want to hurt someone. I know it is wrong to hurt other people. I understand that it would ruin the rest of her life and I understand I wouldn't want it happening to me.

 

[sealybobo]

Believing you are immortal is not dealing with mortality. LOL.

“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.” – Carl Sagan

Actually that statement is false. Believing you are immortal is a way of dealing with mortality. Why construct the idea of immortality at all if not to ease the worry of dying?

Argument from wishful thinking. The primary psychological role of traditional religion is deathist rationalization, that is, rationalizing the tragedy of death as a good thing to alleviate the anxiety of mortality.

You basically just reiterated my argument.

No, you basically reiterated point number 28 on why there is no god.

Why there is no god

What are you talking about? I said people believe in immortality to deal with the fact of mortality. The concept doesnt depend on proving god is real. Thats just part of the bargain.

The Golden Rule or ethic of reciprocity is a moral maxim or principle of altruism found in nearly every human culture and religion, suggesting it is related to a fundamental human nature.

The concept occurs in some form in nearly every religion[4][5] and ethical tradition.[6] It can also be explained from the perspectives of psychology, philosophy, sociology, and economics. Psychologically, it involves a person empathizing with others. Philosophically, it involves a person perceiving their neighbor also as "I" or "self".[7]Sociologically, 'love your neighbor as yourself' is applicable between individuals, between groups, and also between individuals and groups. In economics, Richard Swift, referring to ideas from David Graeber, suggests that "without some kind of reciprocity society would no longer be able to exist."

Possibly the earliest affirmation of reciprocity reflecting the Ancient Egyptian concept of Maat appears in the story of The Eloquent Peasant, which dates to the Middle Kingdom (c. 2040 – c. 1650 BC): "Now this is the command: Do to the doer to make him do."[10][11] This proverb embodies the du ut des principle.[12] A Late Period (c. 664 BC – 323 BC) papyrus contains an early negative affirmation of the Golden Rule: "That which you hate to be done to you, do not do to another."

Ancient China[edit]
The Golden Rule existed among all the major philosophical schools of Ancient China: Mohism, Taoism, and Confucianism. Examples of the concept include:

• "Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself." — Confucius[14](c. 500 BC)
• "If people regarded other people's families in the same way that they regard their own, who then would incite their own family to attack that of another? For one would do for others as one would do for oneself." — Mozi (c. 400 BC)
• "Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss." — Laozi[15] (c. 500 BC)

In Mahābhārata, the ancient epic of India, (c 800-700 BC) comes a discourse where the wise minister Vidura advises the King Yuddhiśhṭhira thus, "Listening to wise scriptures, austerity, sacrifice, respectful faith, social welfare, forgiveness, purity of intent, compassion, truth and self-control — are the ten wealth of character (self).

No god necessary.

 

[Asclepias]

Morality does not come from religion. Animal species do not kill each other at their whim. Even when fighting over a mate they do not usually kill each other. If any species were constantly killing members of their own species it would go extinct rather quickly as it would render the gene pool so small offspring would soon be mutant freaks that couldn't survive. We saw a little of this with the families of Europe that controlled the various monarchies for hundreds of years. They bred with their own sisters and cousins and many of them developed bizarre diseases associated with depleted genetic diversity.

If religion was what made people 'moral' then every person that didn't have a religion would be out doing whatever they want. They don't because human societies set rules as laws, and if you don't follow those rules you lose your freedom. No religion. Even if the laws contain the same reasoning as something a religion espouses that doesn't mean it comes from religion.

But, the 'religion is the only thing that causes morality' is one of those buzz phrases that religious folk like to hold on to because it makes them feel good.

Do whatever makes you feel good.

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” – Steven Weinberg

People need to believe in god / Without god people will do bad things.
Argument from adverse consequences.

Just because something is perceived as having good consequences if it is true, does not actually make it true.

The fact that religiously free societies with a proportionally large number of atheists are generally more peaceful than otherwise is evidence this perception is incorrect.

Without belief in some god/religion etc more people would be doing more things others perceive as bad.

It doesn't work that way on me. For example, you'll never see me shoot up a Planned Parenthood over atheism.

I don't believe that. I don't think you are giving humans enough credit. I know right now you are probably right. I know humans today are sheep and probably need big brother but I hope future humans don't. I don't. And I don't see how it is necessary.

But religion or god does get a lot of people to do good or at least try to be good. I get what you are saying. Religion isn't all bad.

Thats because you were taught it was wrong. If you were never taught it was wrong and you viewed them as a threat big enough to go to jail for what would stop you? The only people not subject to guilt (which comes from religion), are sociopaths. Break everything down to its base. Watch a toddler. They dont give a shit nor do they feel guilty.

I could never rape a woman. Not because I'd be afraid I would burn in hell for eternity or get caught but because I would feel bad hurting someone. I have empathy. I just wouldn't want to hurt someone. I know it is wrong to hurt other people. I understand that it would ruin the rest of her life and I understand I wouldn't want it happening to me.

Thats because you were taught it was wrong and you were taught to consider how other people feel. That is the result of religion. If you didnt feel it was wrong you wouldnt have any problem doing it.