God is a Monstrous, Evil, Bloodthirsty Tyrant

[Sky Dancer]

I doubt the people you've angered agree that their minds are in chains, or that they are fear motivated.

I am sure you are right. I am equally sure that I don't care.

I get the sense that you're on a mission to wake them up

Not necessarily. I am merely expressing certain truths. What people do with those truths is not my responsibility.

But when you say such inflammatory things about their God of the Bible they may feel punished by you for their views.

If they do, that's their problem. Honestly, I'm not here to get along with everyone.

Fair enough. I find your views interesting. I can also see why you're pissing people off.

 

[koshergrl]

Of course he doesn't care if he antagonizes Christians, because that's his stated purpose. He has already made the statement that he enjoys seeking out Christians, including those on Christian sites, where they go to enjoy fellowship with fellow Christians and strengthen their committment, and fuck with the believers. He thinks it's funny, and it's his entire motivation.

Because he hates Christians. He wants to hurt them, and he wants to lead them away from God. He's being used by Satan, though of course he's too dense to realize it, and he thinks it's funny. He honestly thinks he's pulling one over on the faithful. But really, all he's doing is strengthening our faith, and allowing himself to be debased, and used. Well he actually debases himself, but it's all the same.

 

[Sky Dancer]

As a non-christian, I find Dragons views fascinating. What Dragon is talking about is an alternative view of what God is, other than the God of the Bible.

I don't see that as threatening at all.

 

[daveman]

What is God to you del? Does God love everyone, even the people you hate, like me? Hating the human beings behind the posts we don't agree with makes no sense to me.

Tell me all about your victim fantasies of me, del. How am I victim to you?

By claiming that people who disagree with your views hate you as a person.

You know, like you just did with del.

She doesn't believe that. She does it to manipulate people.

I wonder if she knows it's not working?

Imagine how much fun to have to live with her. Or have her as a (shuddder) "counselor". The thought of Sky fucking with suicidal people gives me nightmares. Seriously. I imagine a lot of harm can be laid right at her door.

I can think of few people less qualified to have that job.

 

[daveman]

Obviously, you didn't get much out of your study.

(Sigh.)

This is really a bit tangential, but --

"So you must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." - Matthew 5:48

"There is no one who always does what is right, not even one." - Psalm 14

"But God has a way to make people right with him without the law, and he has now shown us that way which the law and the prophets told us about. God makes people right with himself through their faith in Jesus Christ. This is true for all who believe in Christ, because all people are the same: Everyone has sinned and fallen short of God's glorious standard, and all need to be made right with God by his grace, which is a free gift. They need to be made free from sin through Jesus Christ." - Romans 3:21-24

The standard of behavior within Christianity flows from this. It is impossible, through self-discipline, to live up to the standard set by God. Everyone is sinful, everyone has been condemned to perpetual torture. Only through God's grace and forgiveness through faith in Jesus Christ is there any hope of redemption.

This is not anything obscure. It's taught in the Catholic Church and all mainstream and major Evangelical Protestant churches. When you say that God expects only that people do their best, you are either referring to a reasonable expectation for Christians and not for all mankind (whereas I was referring to the latter), or you are presenting your own views outside of standard Christian doctrine.

God, according to traditional Christian theology, condemns most of mankind to scream forever in horrible torture. He gives Christians a pass, although (according to some sects) not even all of them. In any case, most people aren't Christians, and so are condemned to eternal suffering.

These are the acts of a monstrous, evil, bloodthirsty tyrant -- and that is how traditional Christian theology sees God. That he offers forgiveness to those relatively few who will worship Christ does not make him a loving God.

It's His universe. He gets to make the rules.

You don't like it?

Make your own universe.

 

[BluePhantom]

Of course he doesn't care if he antagonizes Christians, because that's his stated purpose. He has already made the statement that he enjoys seeking out Christians, including those on Christian sites, where they go to enjoy fellowship with fellow Christians and strengthen their committment, and fuck with the believers. He thinks it's funny, and it's his entire motivation.

Because he hates Christians. He wants to hurt them, and he wants to lead them away from God. He's being used by Satan, though of course he's too dense to realize it, and he thinks it's funny. He honestly thinks he's pulling one over on the faithful. But really, all he's doing is strengthening our faith, and allowing himself to be debased, and used. Well he actually debases himself, but it's all the same.

Hmmmm....you know...Dragon and I agree on very few things. Get us on a discussion of economics and we'll rip each other's throats out but on this topic I have to fully agree with him and your conclusion that he hates Christians, it seems to me, is a product of your own bigotry. I have never seen Dragon write anywhere that he hated anyone for their views. In fact I have seen him many times state that people were entitled to their religious views even if he disagrees with them. That's not something I can say about you, Koshergirl. You jump on people for shit you have no clue about and it seems your only argument is "you're an idiot because...well....uh....because you are".

Why does Dragon start discussions such as this? He has his reasons but I have yet to find any evidence that his motivation is malicious. I might also point out that Jesus was considered a heretic, a radical, and a criminal and was nailed to a fucking post for daring to challenge traditional thoughts on God.

 

[AmericanFirst]

As a non-christian, I find Dragons views fascinating. What Dragon is talking about is an alternative view of what God is, other than the God of the Bible.

I don't see that as threatening at all.

An alternative view of God other than the Biblical view is false. The view from the Bible is the truth. Dragon is satans henchman.

 

[Si modo]

As a non-christian, I find Dragons views fascinating. What Dragon is talking about is an alternative view of what God is, other than the God of the Bible.

I don't see that as threatening at all.

An alternative view of God other than the Biblical view is false. The view from the Bible is the truth. Dragon is satans henchman.

So, if I decide to have a higher power who is kind, loving, forgiving, merciful, etc., I would be Satan's henchman, too?

 

[Dragon]

It's His universe. He gets to make the rules.

You don't like it?

Make your own universe.

My point is that it isn't his universe, because he isn't really like that.

 

[Dragon]

An alternative view of God other than the Biblical view is false. The view from the Bible is the truth. Dragon is satans henchman.

So I guess you're all right with being the obsequious, lickspittle lackey of a monstrous, evil, bloodthirsty tyrant. Is that the way it bounces?

 

[Sky Dancer]

As a non-christian, I find Dragons views fascinating. What Dragon is talking about is an alternative view of what God is, other than the God of the Bible.

I don't see that as threatening at all.

An alternative view of God other than the Biblical view is false. The view from the Bible is the truth. Dragon is satans henchman.

An alternative view of God can include the Bible. It means attending to loving passages more than wrathful ones.

Some people reject the idea that God created imperfect beings in order to condemn most of them to an eternal hell.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Obviously, you didn't get much out of your study.

(Sigh.)

This is really a bit tangential, but --

"So you must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." - Matthew 5:48

"There is no one who always does what is right, not even one." - Psalm 14

"But God has a way to make people right with him without the law, and he has now shown us that way which the law and the prophets told us about. God makes people right with himself through their faith in Jesus Christ. This is true for all who believe in Christ, because all people are the same: Everyone has sinned and fallen short of God's glorious standard, and all need to be made right with God by his grace, which is a free gift. They need to be made free from sin through Jesus Christ." - Romans 3:21-24

The standard of behavior within Christianity flows from this. It is impossible, through self-discipline, to live up to the standard set by God. Everyone is sinful, everyone has been condemned to perpetual torture. Only through God's grace and forgiveness through faith in Jesus Christ is there any hope of redemption.

This is not anything obscure. It's taught in the Catholic Church and all mainstream and major Evangelical Protestant churches. When you say that God expects only that people do their best, you are either referring to a reasonable expectation for Christians and not for all mankind (whereas I was referring to the latter), or you are presenting your own views outside of standard Christian doctrine.

God, according to traditional Christian theology, condemns most of mankind to scream forever in horrible torture. He gives Christians a pass, although (according to some sects) not even all of them. In any case, most people aren't Christians, and so are condemned to eternal suffering.

These are the acts of a monstrous, evil, bloodthirsty tyrant -- and that is how traditional Christian theology sees God. That he offers forgiveness to those relatively few who will worship Christ does not make him a loving God.

It's His universe. He gets to make the rules.

You don't like it?

Make your own universe.

That's your view. Whether you like it or not, we still have to live together in the same Universe. You don't get to eject anyone out of the universe, unless you plan on killing everyone who doesn't share your narrow view of God.

Try and find one phenomena in the entire universe that isn't impermanent and changing and get back to me.

 

[Sky Dancer]

All of you who think Dragon is a "militant atheist". He's not an atheist at all. His view of God is bigger than yours.

Examine your own concepts of God. Does God have a gender, a body, and normal human emotions?

Or is God beyond conception, beyond expression, beyond description?

IMO, the Bible is misunderstood. It's supposed to be pointing out instructions on how to experience God. IMO, there isn't much of a living lineage of followers of Christ who have become Christ-like. I haven't met many in this category.

God is bigger than the Bible. God is bigger than religion.

 

[Si modo]

All of you who think Dragon is a "militant atheist". He's not an atheist at all. His view of God is bigger than yours.

Examine your own concepts of God. Does God have a gender, a body, and normal human emotions?

Or is God beyond conception, beyond expression, beyond description?

IMO, the Bible is misunderstood. It's supposed to be pointing out instructions on how to experience God. IMO, there isn't much of a living lineage of followers of Christ who have become Christ-like. I haven't met many in this category.

God is bigger than the Bible. God is bigger than religion.

Yup, at least that is what I would like to believe.

 

[BluePhantom]

I think one of the big problems with Christianity stems from Paul and Constantine. Paul's writings are very difficult to understand because they are letters and we don't have the other letters that he was responding to. Neither do we have the complete letters. So it's kind of like walking into a room while someone is on the phone and trying figure out what they are discussing, then leaving and coming back a bit later and trying to listen in a little more. You think you know what they are talking about but you really don't.

The other problem with Paul was that he used language that no one understands. There are certain critical words in his writings that were not used at the time. No one knows what those words mean so we're left to guess. Lastly, it seems that, at least in Peter's view, Paul wasn't the most credible guy in the world. Peter writes in 2 Peter 3:15-16 essentially that Paul's a good guy and he does his best, but he doesn't quite get it sometimes and you might be wise not to pay too much attention to him.

Yet who is the most influential person in regards to shaping the modern view of Christianity? Well....Paul. Why? Well..Constantine and successive Roman Emperors. Prior to the Council of Nicaea there was no "Bible" nor any real official definition of what a Christian really was. Each cult or sect used their own collection of books and had their own beliefs and some of them were quite anti-establishment. The Gospel of James or the Gospel of Mary Magdalene for example contained some things that were certainly not going to fly with a Roman emperor who demanded order, efficiency, and obedience. So those books were not included when the canon was finalized at the Council of Carthage and instead emphasis was placed on Paul because his teachings were a little more strict and hard, a little more orderly, a little more black and white than the others and that's exactly what a Roman Emperor wants. Even better Paul's writings were vague and difficult to understand so the church and state could use the tradition of Midrash to "clarify" it's meaning....and of course they "clarified" it right into something that would create fear based, blind obedience....which is exactly what a Roman Emperor wants.

Through the Middle Ages the church found that this worked real well for them and through fear and blind obedience they could rule all of Europe by proxy. Even the kings were subject to their demands...at least until Henry VIII told them to go fuck themselves so he could fuck Anne Boleyn.

Anyhow, that's really where it came from and it's persisted until the modern day unfortunately because fear is a very powerful tool in the hands of a group of people who stay in power only because of the willingness of other people to follow them.

 

[rightwinger]

For the most part, God is a good guy. The type of guy you would like to have a beer with

Once in a while, he has a bad day and unleashes floods, famines and pestilence

 

[BluePhantom]

Anyhow, that's really where it came from and it's persisted until the modern day unfortunately because fear is a very powerful tool in the hands of a group of people who stay in power only because of the willingness of other people to follow them.

I might also point out that the methods by which the church enforced this was historically pretty brutal. I mean if you didn't do what the church said or even made the suggestion that the church might be wrong they flat out fucking killed you. The Catholic Church was still burning people at the stake as recently as 1732 so we're talking roughly 1,400 years after the First Council of Nicaea where these beliefs were pounded into the heads of the masses under threat of a pretty gruesome death. Trying to dispel 1,400 years of tradition doesn't happen overnight, especially when fear and terror is involved.

 

[freedombecki]

I mean the God of traditional Christian theology, of course. Consider:

1) He made human beings fallible, then expected them to be perfect.

Nope. He made them like himself.

2) Because they sought the knowledge of good and evil -- that is, tried to develop a conscience -- he condemned not only those who did this, but all of their descendants, to be tortured forever and ever.

Nope. They got in trouble for disobedience.

3) For thousands of years, everyone (with perhaps a very few exceptions -- theory isn't clear on this) were sentenced to be tortured forever and ever, since he had designed everyone to be perfect but judged them according to an unachievable standard.

You grossly misunderstand: God is merciful and without iniquity. You should try it sometime.

4) After thousands of years and millions of victims, who were screaming endlessly under horrible tortures, doubtless to his pleasure and satisfaction, he sent his son to assume human form and be tortured to death. Apparently, although we're not told why, this was sufficient to appease the divine blood-lust.

Christ only taught people what scriptures meant, and exposed traitors in the synagogues who were making them into little more than meaningless marketplaces where good is bought and sold. That was false. Justice and mercy are not commodities.

5) Meanwhile, all those millions of victims continued to scream endlessly under horrible torture.

I don't think so. Do you hear them in your head?

6) Although Jesus' being whipped with cords studded with sharp metal so that his flesh was ripped apart and then nailed to a piece of wood to die slowly over several hours supposedly appeased the divine sadism, most people continued to be condemned to scream forever under horrible tortures, as the only ones who could take advantage of Jesus' being abused in this way were those who believed in this story (which was offered without evidence) and submitted to the authority of the Church. (Although there is some dispute about that last minor point.)

Actually, you are putting the wrongs of angry Pharisees onto God's plate, which is putting judgment against God for the wrongs of somebody else. God well knew that the law was too hard for people, so he renewed grace as salvation, not keeping the letter of the law.

This, we are told, is the creator of the universe, perfectly good, perfectly wise, and all-powerful. We are asked to believe that the sublime all-in-all is worse by far than any mere human despot, who must be content with torturing people for only finite amounts of time.

God is not the tormenter. That capacity is taken by a Fallen Angel and his minions.

In fairness, it's not unlikely that someone like Torquemada or Hitler would have had people screaming endlessly under horrible tortures, too, were that humanly possible. So perhaps God is not actually morally worse than the worst examples of human depravity, but merely endowed with power that gives his depravity more dreadful consequences.

It's those who judged God who wound up in the pits.

Be that as it may, it is reasonable to question whether this conception of God makes any sense -- and by that I mean, on this occasion, not logical or scientific sense, but moral sense.

Your interpretation of God is not in accordance with anything I have ever read and know to be true.

Whenever I hear the statement, "For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son," and I remember the divine blood-lust and cruelty and smarmy pretense that is supposed to accompany this "gift," I want to puke.

That's likely because you judge God and disbelieve in his goodness.

I hope your opinion of Him changes sometime.

 

[Dragon]

I mean the God of traditional Christian theology, of course. Consider:

1) He made human beings fallible, then expected them to be perfect.

Nope. He made them like himself.

God had no knowledge of good and evil? God had the fallibility to succumb to temptation?

2) Because they sought the knowledge of good and evil -- that is, tried to develop a conscience -- he condemned not only those who did this, but all of their descendants, to be tortured forever and ever.

Nope. They got in trouble for disobedience.

"Disobedience" is the general. "Sought the knowledge of good and evil" is the particular: that's HOW they disobeyed. When we condemn someone for a crime, we don't say they "broke the law," we say the committed murder, theft, fraud, or whatever specific offense they committed.

You grossly misunderstand: God is merciful and without iniquity.

So you say, but how is that compatible with a God who condemns almost everyone to scream forever in horrible torture?

I don't think so.

Well, then you, like me, reject the God of traditional Christian theology, because according to Christian doctrine the condemned in Hell are there forever.

God well knew that the law was too hard for people, so he renewed grace as salvation, not keeping the letter of the law.

First, Christian doctrine holds that in order for God to forgive sins and let people not scream forever in horrible torture, he required that his only begotten son be horribly tortured (albeit not forever) and die in agony. Second, even after that he still condemned most people to scream forever in horrible torture, allowing only those who were willing to worship him and his son to escape that fate. This is not what I would consider mercy.

God is not the tormenter. That capacity is taken by a Fallen Angel and his minions.

Horseshit. Got is omnipotent. Therefore, nothing happens that is not by God's will. Therefore, people screaming forever in horrible torture is God's will. Who wields the actual instruments of torture is irrelevant.

I hope your opinion of Him changes sometime.

It's not my opinion of God that's the problem. It's traditional Christianity's opinion of God. Christian doctrine, not I, describes God as a monstrous, evil, bloodthirsty tyrant. All I'm doing is pointing out that those labels fit the description.

 

[freedombecki]

Dragon, what I believe the Bible says and what others believe the Bible says do not always interface. You seem to believe EVERYBODY who believes thinks God is "a God who condemns almost everyone to scream forever in horrible torture"

I've never seen a scripture saying such a silly thing.