Government as Employer

DGS49

Diamond Member
Apr 12, 2012
16,459
14,454
It is a happy coincidence that the Government employs people in the process of performing the duties that it rightly performs under the constraints of our Constitution.

The Department of Defense is totally constitutional and employs millions, both in uniform and otherwise. The post office, the patent office, the mint, the Federal courts, and (some) federal departments and agencies employ hundreds of thousands of valuable people.

These employees take their wages and spend the money on houses, cars, products, food, entertainment, and other commodities; they make investments, put money in banks, lend and borrow money...it's all good, and it helps the economy as a BY-PRODUCT of the fulfillment of the rightful obligations of government.

But are there government employees who, truth be told, are ONLY employed by Government because of their contribution to the economy - employees whose functions are either unconstitutional, duplicative, superfluous, or even counterproductive - and could be eliminated with no real reduction in the functioning of government?

The most obvious examples of this phenomenon is in the scores of superfluous military bases scattered throughout the "fruited plain."

Fiscally-sensitive politicians have tried for decades to lower this burden on the taxpayer, and have appointed commissions and whatnot to take base closings OUT OF THE HANDS of the politicians, but it hasn't worked. We are still saddled with scores of these superfluous bases. The fact is that they often are a primary employer in some out-of-the-way location, and to close them down would be a devastating blow to that small community. I live in a little hamlet called, "Pittsburgh," and we have a sizeable Air Force base that could be closed entirely and I would bet that no Iranian mullah, Russian despot or Cuban comrade would give a shit one way or another. In short, it is a complete waste of taxpayer money. Every couple years they talk about closing the base, and it causes our two Senators and several Reps to go into fits of apoplexy, warning that the U.S. itself could collapse if it lost the added security of the 911th Tactical Airlift Wing. Horsefeathers.

But these military bases are just the tip of the iceburg, when considering how many government agencies (and hence hundreds of thousands of employees) are there only through inertia or misguided congressional initiatives. We have dozens of agencies falling all over themselves with anti-poverty programs, housing subsidy programs, small business programs, loan programs, and who knows what else. And even if you can ignore the fact that most of them are blatantly unconstitutional, there is no conceivable doubt that most of the employees could be eliminated if they were consolidated to a rational number of agencies and programs.

When people like me were having hissy-fits about the new trillion dollar deficits at the end of Bush43, Barry warned us that to adopt "austerity" budgets and put all these superfluous government employees out of work would surely lead to a repeat of the Great Depression. So "we" funded not only the continuation of all these people, but paid state and local governments to HIRE MORE OF THEM! None of them were needed, but in the manner of any large bureaucratic agency, they were all hired, and were all deemed "indispensable," within a short period of time.

And now those state and local governments, and school districts, have had to cough up the money to retain those people who were stupidly hired with the short-term Federal money. Predictably, we are told that they are now VITAL to the accomplishment of the missions of all those departments and school districts who hired them, even though we'll collectively be damned if we can figure out what the hell we paid for with all those trillions of dollars.

At what point can we say, STOP! We are no longer going to fund government employees simply because to fire them would supposedly hurt the economy. It's no longer fair to burden ourselves, our children and grandchildren with these superfluous government employees, paying them generously throughout a non-working career, as well as during a long and generous retirement.

I remember many moons ago when I was taking college classes in "Public Administration." I was taught that any good public-sector agency practiced the discipline of "zero-based budgeting." That is, every single expenditure was presumed to have completed its mission and was no longer necessary in the next year's budget. It would only be continued if a demonstrated need was there. "Zero-base budgeting."

It's time to implement that noble philosophy, and if a lot of government employees lose their jobs, so be it. I've lost my job several times during a 45 year working career, and I survived every one of them. No reason why government employees should be any different.
 
If a government employee is doing something unconstitutional there is a process for addressing that.

There is government spending that is done simply because it helps the economy. Defense contracting is basically just a big pork trough. Could be cut significantly but there would be an economic cost.

Zero based budgeting is a little different than how you describe.

Zero-based budgeting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Government decision making is very much detached from the everyday operations at the agency level. It is very hard to do the marginal cost benefit analysis that should be done. The agencies really have no incentive to do it and have trouble monetizing the benefit and the decision makers make decisions based on what matters to them more so than the cost benefit analysis.

Doing the best cost benefit analysis in the world doesn't mean the politicians will go along with it.
 
I understand the concern in the OP. I'd like to add that there is a trap in cutting direct government spending; it usually is done to enable even more wasteful indirect spending through major corporations. What does it cost for a private contractor to provide meals on a military base in Afganistan?

The truth is that many cost cutting measures are simply methods of siphoning off public dollars for private interests with little or no accountability. Look at the NYC charter school corporations, which under perform public schools, get paid 20% more, use public school facilities, and lie about their effectiveness. The only thing they are good at is having an expulsion rate three times public schools, which magically all comes from poorly performing students on standardized tests. Oh, they are also good at teaching zero special education students and less than half non-English speakers as other schools. Yet a massive PR campaign year after year trumpets how good they are doing and how bad the public schools are.

The trick is not to cut budget items. Zero based budgeting works fine if you apply it uniformly. But everyone wants zero base budgeting for other programs and special consideration to theirs. Developing a profit opportunity merely opens the door to corporate lobbying and PR campaigns.
 
I believe it was Alan Greenspan who observed that with respect to spending, there are four possibilities.

(1) Spend your own money for your own benefit: you are careful about how much you spend and strive to get the best quality of stuff for the money spent.

(2) Spend your own money for someone else's benefit: you want to watch the amount you spend, but are less concerned about the quality of the stuff.

(3) Spend someone else's money for your own benefit: You don't care about the cost, but want to maximize the quality of the stuff.

And the fourth possibility is the case for government spending, to wit,

(4) Spend someone else's money for someone else's benefit: Don't care about the cost, don't care about the quality or value of the stuff.

Explains it all.

But back to my original post. I'm not talking about fraud, waste, and abuse. These things will always be present, and particularly in the public sector. I'm talking about money that we are spending, properly, with our eyes wide open, that is either unconstitutional (DoE, Social Security, etc), duplicative, or unnecessary. Expenses and people who could be gotten rid of, and other than they and their relatives, America wouldn't even notice.
 
I believe it was Alan Greenspan who observed that with respect to spending, there are four possibilities.

(1) Spend your own money for your own benefit: you are careful about how much you spend and strive to get the best quality of stuff for the money spent.

(2) Spend your own money for someone else's benefit: you want to watch the amount you spend, but are less concerned about the quality of the stuff.

(3) Spend someone else's money for your own benefit: You don't care about the cost, but want to maximize the quality of the stuff.

And the fourth possibility is the case for government spending, to wit,

(4) Spend someone else's money for someone else's benefit: Don't care about the cost, don't care about the quality or value of the stuff.

Explains it all.

But back to my original post. I'm not talking about fraud, waste, and abuse. These things will always be present, and particularly in the public sector. I'm talking about money that we are spending, properly, with our eyes wide open, that is either unconstitutional (DoE, Social Security, etc), duplicative, or unnecessary. Expenses and people who could be gotten rid of, and other than they and their relatives, America wouldn't even notice.

Your problem is that every expenditure that everyone agrees fit your criteria is zero. Every expenditure has a constituency which will resist its elimination. So you are left with expenditures that you don't like but other people do. That's politics. Lots of luck in either finding programs no one supports (there are none or they would be gone already) or programs you can convince their entrenched interests to abandon (close to none). No one trusts others in the political process to be "fair", and so no one volunteers to be first to sacrifice their donor base. Let me know how you intend to solve that variation of the Prisoner's Dilemma.
 
I believe it was Alan Greenspan who observed that with respect to spending, there are four possibilities.

(1) Spend your own money for your own benefit: you are careful about how much you spend and strive to get the best quality of stuff for the money spent.

(2) Spend your own money for someone else's benefit: you want to watch the amount you spend, but are less concerned about the quality of the stuff.

(3) Spend someone else's money for your own benefit: You don't care about the cost, but want to maximize the quality of the stuff.

And the fourth possibility is the case for government spending, to wit,

(4) Spend someone else's money for someone else's benefit: Don't care about the cost, don't care about the quality or value of the stuff.

Explains it all.

But back to my original post. I'm not talking about fraud, waste, and abuse. These things will always be present, and particularly in the public sector. I'm talking about money that we are spending, properly, with our eyes wide open, that is either unconstitutional (DoE, Social Security, etc), duplicative, or unnecessary. Expenses and people who could be gotten rid of, and other than they and their relatives, America wouldn't even notice.

Social Security is not unconstitutional.

It just sounds like you take for granted what the government does.
 
Dearest Bombur Person:

I call your attention to Article I, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution, and to the Tenth Amendment. The former lists ALL of the powers of the United States Congress - in effect, the things that Congress may spend taxpayers' money on. The 10th Amendment articulates the counter-principle that the powers not granted to the Federal government are reserved to the States and to the people.

Please identify which of the powers granted to Congress includes within its scope the power to create a compulsory federal retirement system.

And note well, if you propose to give me a response mentioning the "general welfare" wording, don't bother responding because you are a Constitutional ignoramous. I could explain why, but you probably won't understand.
 
Dearest Bombur Person:

I call your attention to Article I, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution, and to the Tenth Amendment. The former lists ALL of the powers of the United States Congress - in effect, the things that Congress may spend taxpayers' money on. The 10th Amendment articulates the counter-principle that the powers not granted to the Federal government are reserved to the States and to the people.

Please identify which of the powers granted to Congress includes within its scope the power to create a compulsory federal retirement system.

And note well, if you propose to give me a response mentioning the "general welfare" wording, don't bother responding because you are a Constitutional ignoramous. I could explain why, but you probably won't understand.

Take it up with the courts IMO.

Until then my point stands.
 
I call your attention to Article I, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution
Yup, social security falls under the taxing and spending clause of Article I. This makes it constitutional.

As Bombur alluded to the Supreme Court has upheld this interpretation, so is what it is.
 
Again, collossal constitutional ignorance.

If Congress were permitted to "tax and spend" to its heart's content, how could any program ever be held unconstituitonal? Indeed, what was the point of listing Congress' powers? They are completely superfluous under your reading.
 
Again, collossal constitutional ignorance.

If Congress were permitted to "tax and spend" to its heart's content, how could any program ever be held unconstituitonal? Indeed, what was the point of listing Congress' powers? They are completely superfluous under your reading.

Take it up with the courts IMO.
 
Dearest Bombur Person:

I call your attention to Article I, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution, and to the Tenth Amendment. The former lists ALL of the powers of the United States Congress - in effect, the things that Congress may spend taxpayers' money on. The 10th Amendment articulates the counter-principle that the powers not granted to the Federal government are reserved to the States and to the people.

Please identify which of the powers granted to Congress includes within its scope the power to create a compulsory federal retirement system.

And note well, if you propose to give me a response mentioning the "general welfare" wording, don't bother responding because you are a Constitutional ignoramous. I could explain why, but you probably won't understand.

Dearest DGS49 Person:
I call YOUR attention to the Sixteenth Amendment of the Constitution. Stop wasting people's time. The 16th Amendment has been in force since 1913, so you could not have missed it had you a brain. Your breathless con tool posts simply prove you are ignorant. And dishonest. Here. See if you can read:
The Sixteenth Amendment (Amendment XVI) to the United States Constitution allows the Congress to levy an income tax without apportioning it among the states or basing it on the United States Census. This amendment exempted income taxes from the constitutional requirements regarding direct taxes, after income taxes on rents, dividends, and interest were ruled to be direct taxes in the court case of Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust Co. (1895). The amendment was adopted on February 3, 1913.
Sixteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Get a clue, dipshit. And quit lying. Even you can not be so stupid as to post the drivel you do.
 
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Taxing.

Spending.

Two different things.

Apparently too complex for some to grasp.
 
Taxing.

Spending.

Two different things.

Apparently too complex for some to grasp.
Really, me boy. You think that taxing and spending being different is complex for someone? That is sad for you. You were talking about taxing and the constitution. And you were wrong. That was very, very simple.
You seem to have a little stupidity issue. Probably a congenital issue. Sorry about that, me boy, probably not your fault. Most likely you are just a congenital idiot.
 

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