CDZ Guantánamo

[oldsoul]

Given that President Trump has promised to keep open Guantánamo concentration camp and increase the number of unconvicted or uncharged inmates, how many prisoners will be added to the current 55 by this time next year?

In the interests of keeping his word, I am supposing the total will be 110 and that they will once again be subjected to the waterboard torture.

Guantánamo

I find it rather difficult to have a rational, fact based discussion with someone who makes statements such as this:

Guantánamo concentration camp

If you care to reword the OP in a way that at least feigns objectivity and civility, I will re-consider, until then, this is pointless.

 

[Tuatara]

There are folks we catch that are too dangerous to simply release again. Is your argument that we should simply kill them?

Prove it in court.

They were captured on the battlefield engaging in unlawful acts of war....per the Geneva convention..

No they were not. Some were taken from their homes in the middle of the night. Some were offered up by rival tribes in hopes of a big payout.

.and they can be held till the hostilities are over.....

Most were grabbed after this.

Waterboarding is not torture.

Wrong again
waterboarding | torture method
No Doubt about It: Waterboarding Is Torture. Period.

 

[Eloy]

Given that President Trump has promised to keep open Guantánamo concentration camp and increase the number of unconvicted or uncharged inmates, how many prisoners will be added to the current 55 by this time next year?

In the interests of keeping his word, I am supposing the total will be 110 and that they will once again be subjected to the waterboard torture.

Guantánamo

I find it rather difficult to have a rational, fact based discussion with someone who makes statements such as this:

Guantánamo concentration camp

If you care to reword the OP in a way that at least feigns objectivity and civility, I will re-consider, until then, this is pointless.

There is nothing uncivil about the wording "Guantánamo concentration camp" for that is as much a concentration camp as Andersonville run by the rebel states during the civil war.
"Since January 2002, the United States has run the Guantánamo Bay prison camp . Some people have called Guantánamo a concentration camp or a gulag. These people have included Fidel Castro, the leader of Amnesty International, and other activist groups like CounterPunch." (Simple English Wikipedia)
Concentration camp - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"a guarded compound for the detention or imprisonment of aliens, members of ethnic minorities, political opponents, etc." (Dictionary.com)
the definition of concentration camp
"Now, however, men in protective custody are mostly those who are brought, for the 'protection of the people and the State,' into a concentration camp without hearing, without court sentence, without the possibility of redress, and for an indefinite time." (The Atlantic, September 1939)
Concentration Camp
I could go on but you get the point.

 

[oldsoul]

Given that President Trump has promised to keep open Guantánamo concentration camp and increase the number of unconvicted or uncharged inmates, how many prisoners will be added to the current 55 by this time next year?

In the interests of keeping his word, I am supposing the total will be 110 and that they will once again be subjected to the waterboard torture.

Guantánamo

I find it rather difficult to have a rational, fact based discussion with someone who makes statements such as this:

Guantánamo concentration camp

If you care to reword the OP in a way that at least feigns objectivity and civility, I will re-consider, until then, this is pointless.

There is nothing uncivil about the wording "Guantánamo concentration camp" for that is as much a concentration camp as Andersonville run by the rebel states during the civil war.
"Since January 2002, the United States has run the Guantánamo Bay prison camp . Some people have called Guantánamo a concentration camp or a gulag. These people have included Fidel Castro, the leader of Amnesty International, and other activist groups like CounterPunch." (Simple English Wikipedia)
Concentration camp - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"a guarded compound for the detention or imprisonment of aliens, members of ethnic minorities, political opponents, etc." (Dictionary.com)
the definition of concentration camp
"Now, however, men in protective custody are mostly those who are brought, for the 'protection of the people and the State,' into a concentration camp without hearing, without court sentence, without the possibility of redress, and for an indefinite time." (The Atlantic, September 1939)
Concentration Camp
I could go on but you get the point.

As I said, this is pointless. Your unmitigated bias is too apparent, thus I have little hope you can be objective, and look at the facts. Such as, all of the prisoners sent to Gitmo (to the best of my knowledge) are what the Geneva Convention terms "enemy combatants". Therefore calling it a POW camp would actually be correct, but a concentration camp? Not even a little.

 

[Hossfly]

Given that President Trump has promised to keep open Guantánamo concentration camp and increase the number of unconvicted or uncharged inmates, how many prisoners will be added to the current 55 by this time next year?

In the interests of keeping his word, I am supposing the total will be 110 and that they will once again be subjected to the waterboard torture.

Guantánamo

I find it rather difficult to have a rational, fact based discussion with someone who makes statements such as this:

Guantánamo concentration camp

If you care to reword the OP in a way that at least feigns objectivity and civility, I will re-consider, until then, this is pointless.

There is nothing uncivil about the wording "Guantánamo concentration camp" for that is as much a concentration camp as Andersonville run by the rebel states during the civil war.
"Since January 2002, the United States has run the Guantánamo Bay prison camp . Some people have called Guantánamo a concentration camp or a gulag. These people have included Fidel Castro, the leader of Amnesty International, and other activist groups like CounterPunch." (Simple English Wikipedia)
Concentration camp - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"a guarded compound for the detention or imprisonment of aliens, members of ethnic minorities, political opponents, etc." (Dictionary.com)
the definition of concentration camp
"Now, however, men in protective custody are mostly those who are brought, for the 'protection of the people and the State,' into a concentration camp without hearing, without court sentence, without the possibility of redress, and for an indefinite time." (The Atlantic, September 1939)
Concentration Camp
I could go on but you get the point.

As I said, this is pointless. Your unmitigated bias is too apparent, thus I have little hope you can be objective, and look at the facts. Such as, all of the prisoners sent to Gitmo (to the best of my knowledge) are what the Geneva Convention terms "enemy combatants". Therefore calling it a POW camp would actually be correct, but a concentration camp? Not even a little.

Given that President Trump has promised to keep open Guantánamo concentration camp and increase the number of unconvicted or uncharged inmates, how many prisoners will be added to the current 55 by this time next year?

In the interests of keeping his word, I am supposing the total will be 110 and that they will once again be subjected to the waterboard torture.

Guantánamo

I find it rather difficult to have a rational, fact based discussion with someone who makes statements such as this:

Guantánamo concentration camp

If you care to reword the OP in a way that at least feigns objectivity and civility, I will re-consider, until then, this is pointless.

There is nothing uncivil about the wording "Guantánamo concentration camp" for that is as much a concentration camp as Andersonville run by the rebel states during the civil war.
"Since January 2002, the United States has run the Guantánamo Bay prison camp . Some people have called Guantánamo a concentration camp or a gulag. These people have included Fidel Castro, the leader of Amnesty International, and other activist groups like CounterPunch." (Simple English Wikipedia)
Concentration camp - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"a guarded compound for the detention or imprisonment of aliens, members of ethnic minorities, political opponents, etc." (Dictionary.com)
the definition of concentration camp
"Now, however, men in protective custody are mostly those who are brought, for the 'protection of the people and the State,' into a concentration camp without hearing, without court sentence, without the possibility of redress, and for an indefinite time." (The Atlantic, September 1939)
Concentration Camp
I could go on but you get the point.

The animal trash in Gitmo are Prisoners Of War. Not in jail or concentration camps. They are in a POW camp

 

[Eloy]

Given that President Trump has promised to keep open Guantánamo concentration camp and increase the number of unconvicted or uncharged inmates, how many prisoners will be added to the current 55 by this time next year?

In the interests of keeping his word, I am supposing the total will be 110 and that they will once again be subjected to the waterboard torture.

Guantánamo

I find it rather difficult to have a rational, fact based discussion with someone who makes statements such as this:

Guantánamo concentration camp

If you care to reword the OP in a way that at least feigns objectivity and civility, I will re-consider, until then, this is pointless.

There is nothing uncivil about the wording "Guantánamo concentration camp" for that is as much a concentration camp as Andersonville run by the rebel states during the civil war.
"Since January 2002, the United States has run the Guantánamo Bay prison camp . Some people have called Guantánamo a concentration camp or a gulag. These people have included Fidel Castro, the leader of Amnesty International, and other activist groups like CounterPunch." (Simple English Wikipedia)
Concentration camp - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"a guarded compound for the detention or imprisonment of aliens, members of ethnic minorities, political opponents, etc." (Dictionary.com)
the definition of concentration camp
"Now, however, men in protective custody are mostly those who are brought, for the 'protection of the people and the State,' into a concentration camp without hearing, without court sentence, without the possibility of redress, and for an indefinite time." (The Atlantic, September 1939)
Concentration Camp
I could go on but you get the point.

As I said, this is pointless. Your unmitigated bias is too apparent, thus I have little hope you can be objective, and look at the facts. Such as, all of the prisoners sent to Gitmo (to the best of my knowledge) are what the Geneva Convention terms "enemy combatants". Therefore calling it a POW camp would actually be correct, but a concentration camp? Not even a little.

Many in Guantánamo could not be described as combatants. Think for a moment, none of the 779 prisoners who have been held by the U.S. military at Guantánamo since the prison opened on January 11, 2002 have been charged with being a combatant. Combatant POWs are held until the end of a war. Yet 738 have been released or committed suicide at different times! Still 41 remain and none of these have been charged. Clearly, the United States does not consider them as POWs.

Since Donald has promised to increase the numbers, it has to be wondered how many will be there a year from now. I am suggesting that Donald Trump did not lie about increasing the numbers and also the reintroduction of waterboarding torture which will double the number to 82.

 

[usmbguest5318]

I think the Gitmo debate is one borne of politics and appearances than of integrity and actual need. Consider the matter of the 20 or so Uighurs held there.

As Obama began trying to empty the prison, it became clear that few people with political power were invested in seeing the detainees moved. The first major effort involved seventeen Uighurs—Chinese Muslims, most of whom had travelled to Afghanistan in the nineties, fleeing persecution by the Communist government. After the U.S. invaded Afghanistan, the Uighurs were turned over to the military, in exchange for a bounty of five thousand dollars each.

When the Bush Administration took up their case, Bellinger, the legal adviser, thought that the Uighurs’ situation was a “tragedy.” But they could not be repatriated to China, where they would likely be tortured or executed. And, when he tried to persuade other countries to accept them, foreign officials wanted to know why they should take people whom the U.S. didn’t want—particularly when China was threatening economic retribution. Bellinger argued that some of the Uighurs should be resettled in the U.S. But, he said, “arrayed against us were Defense, Justice, the C.I.A., Homeland Security, and the Vice-President’s Office.”

The case made its way to U.S. District Court in Washington, D.C. As hearings began, the judge, Ricardo Urbina, wondered if he was “misunderstanding the situation,” as he recalled in an oral history sponsored by Columbia University. “When I reviewed the submissions, there was nothing that suggested anything dangerous about these people.” In October, 2008, Urbina ruled the detention unconstitutional and ordered the Uighurs released into the United States. Bellinger recalled, “That decision was such a shock to Justice, Defense, and Homeland Security. They filed an emergency appeal to reverse, saying, ‘These are dangerous people!’ ” The appeal succeeded, and the Uighurs remained in prison when Obama took office.

In April, 2009, Rahm Emanuel, Obama’s chief of staff, hosted a principals-committee meeting, assembling Cabinet secretaries and agency directors involved in national security. At this meeting, the group concluded that at least two of the Uighurs should be brought to northern Virginia, which had one of the country’s largest Uighur communities.

Frank Wolf, a Republican congressman from the area, was a fervent supporter of the Uighurs and a critic of China. But, as the White House worked on a plan, it failed to involve him; the information was leaked to him, one Friday afternoon, by a contact in the Administration. Wolf angrily refused to accept the detainees, describing them in a letter to Obama as “terrorists” who “would be released into neighborhoods.” Other Republicans joined him; even Harry Reid, the Senate Democratic leader, said, “We don’t want them.” Emanuel abandoned the idea of a transfer, and Obama did not force the issue.

Source
​

Just look at that. It's absolutely disgraceful that Wolf denied his support for the Uighurs because, apparently his feelings were hurt over not having been made party to their transfer to VA, yet Wolf supported their being released into the U.S.

 

[usmbguest5318]

Now, do I actually give a damn about what the U.S. does with Gitmo? Not really as long as there aren't U.S. citizens held there.

 

[Eloy]

Now, do I actually give a damn about what the U.S. does with Gitmo? Not really as long as there aren't U.S. citizens held there.

This strikes me as an unethical attitude because Guantánamo is an American concentration camp and Americans should not be washing their hands of it. It makes me wonder if Germans might have spoken this way about the treatment of inmates in their camps during the Third Reich. It is best to admit wrongdoing and release the remainder 41 inmates. To their credit, Germans are the only people who have built a memorial of shame in their capital.

Usually, monuments commemorate the heroes of a nation. Berlin's Holocaust Memorial is the exact opposite. Renowned German writer Martin Walser called it "the first monument erected by a nation in memory of its crimes." Thousands of people visit every day. It is open to the public and can be accessed around the clock.

President Trump has promised to keep Guantánamo open and make it bigger with the reintroduction of torture. If he keeps his word the current number of 41 inmates could be 82 this time next year. I am wondering if Americans think Trump can be believed and, if so, what will the population of the concentration camp be next year.

 

[usmbguest5318]

This strikes me as an unethical attitude

Well, I'd have to say that, in a manner of speaking, you're right about that. I've not really put much effort into considering the ethics of the Gitmo matter and I haven't researched it enough to be anything other than insouciant about it.

 

[esthermoon]

Given that President Trump has promised to keep open Guantánamo concentration camp and increase the number of unconvicted or uncharged inmates, how many prisoners will be added to the current 55 by this time next year?

In the interests of keeping his word, I am supposing the total will be 110 and that they will once again be subjected to the waterboard torture.

Guantánamo

I find it rather difficult to have a rational, fact based discussion with someone who makes statements such as this:

Guantánamo concentration camp

If you care to reword the OP in a way that at least feigns objectivity and civility, I will re-consider, until then, this is pointless.

There is nothing uncivil about the wording "Guantánamo concentration camp" for that is as much a concentration camp as Andersonville run by the rebel states during the civil war.
"Since January 2002, the United States has run the Guantánamo Bay prison camp . Some people have called Guantánamo a concentration camp or a gulag. These people have included Fidel Castro, the leader of Amnesty International, and other activist groups like CounterPunch." (Simple English Wikipedia)
Concentration camp - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"a guarded compound for the detention or imprisonment of aliens, members of ethnic minorities, political opponents, etc." (Dictionary.com)
the definition of concentration camp
"Now, however, men in protective custody are mostly those who are brought, for the 'protection of the people and the State,' into a concentration camp without hearing, without court sentence, without the possibility of redress, and for an indefinite time." (The Atlantic, September 1939)
Concentration Camp
I could go on but you get the point.

Well but Fidel Castro were not reliable when he called Guantanamo concentration camp a gulag because he was involved in a long time territorial dispute with the USA about Guantanamo.
I mean he couldn't be neutral.

 

[Eloy]

Given that President Trump has promised to keep open Guantánamo concentration camp and increase the number of unconvicted or uncharged inmates, how many prisoners will be added to the current 55 by this time next year?

In the interests of keeping his word, I am supposing the total will be 110 and that they will once again be subjected to the waterboard torture.

Guantánamo

I find it rather difficult to have a rational, fact based discussion with someone who makes statements such as this:

Guantánamo concentration camp

If you care to reword the OP in a way that at least feigns objectivity and civility, I will re-consider, until then, this is pointless.

There is nothing uncivil about the wording "Guantánamo concentration camp" for that is as much a concentration camp as Andersonville run by the rebel states during the civil war.
"Since January 2002, the United States has run the Guantánamo Bay prison camp . Some people have called Guantánamo a concentration camp or a gulag. These people have included Fidel Castro, the leader of Amnesty International, and other activist groups like CounterPunch." (Simple English Wikipedia)
Concentration camp - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"a guarded compound for the detention or imprisonment of aliens, members of ethnic minorities, political opponents, etc." (Dictionary.com)
the definition of concentration camp
"Now, however, men in protective custody are mostly those who are brought, for the 'protection of the people and the State,' into a concentration camp without hearing, without court sentence, without the possibility of redress, and for an indefinite time." (The Atlantic, September 1939)
Concentration Camp
I could go on but you get the point.

Well but Fidel Castro were not reliable when he called Guantanamo concentration camp a gulag because he was involved in a long time territorial dispute with the USA about Guantanamo.
I mean he couldn't be neutral.

Why should anyone be neutral about torture and incarceration without trial?

 

[Indeependent]

Given that President Trump has promised to keep open Guantánamo concentration camp and increase the number of unconvicted or uncharged inmates, how many prisoners will be added to the current 55 by this time next year?

In the interests of keeping his word, I am supposing the total will be 110 and that they will once again be subjected to the waterboard torture.

Guantánamo

I find it rather difficult to have a rational, fact based discussion with someone who makes statements such as this:

Guantánamo concentration camp

If you care to reword the OP in a way that at least feigns objectivity and civility, I will re-consider, until then, this is pointless.

There is nothing uncivil about the wording "Guantánamo concentration camp" for that is as much a concentration camp as Andersonville run by the rebel states during the civil war.
"Since January 2002, the United States has run the Guantánamo Bay prison camp . Some people have called Guantánamo a concentration camp or a gulag. These people have included Fidel Castro, the leader of Amnesty International, and other activist groups like CounterPunch." (Simple English Wikipedia)
Concentration camp - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"a guarded compound for the detention or imprisonment of aliens, members of ethnic minorities, political opponents, etc." (Dictionary.com)
the definition of concentration camp
"Now, however, men in protective custody are mostly those who are brought, for the 'protection of the people and the State,' into a concentration camp without hearing, without court sentence, without the possibility of redress, and for an indefinite time." (The Atlantic, September 1939)
Concentration Camp
I could go on but you get the point.

Well but Fidel Castro were not reliable when he called Guantanamo concentration camp a gulag because he was involved in a long time territorial dispute with the USA about Guantanamo.
I mean he couldn't be neutral.

Why should anyone be neutral about torture and incarceration without trial?

Because the enemy isn't.

 

[flacaltenn]

how many prisoners will be added to the current 55 by this time next year?

Probably a third of the number that Obama let go and who have returned to the battlefield to savage more civilians and kill people...

 

[Eloy]

how many prisoners will be added to the current 55 by this time next year?

Probably a third of the number that Obama let go and who have returned to the battlefield to savage more civilians and kill people...

I have not seen any data showing that any of the inmates (all uncharged) have gone to a battlefield somewhere or even returning to one. Would you please supply a link to your numbers? Thanks.

 

[flacaltenn]

how many prisoners will be added to the current 55 by this time next year?

Probably a third of the number that Obama let go and who have returned to the battlefield to savage more civilians and kill people...

I have not seen any data showing that any of the inmates (all uncharged) have gone to a battlefield somewhere or even returning to one. Would you please supply a link to your numbers? Thanks.

I'm surprised to find out that you don't know that fact. WELL known and documented. And no -- if you're THAT far behind in the facts concerning this issue, it would better if YOU looked it up.. It's FUNDAMENTAL to understanding the realities and scope of this problem.

 

[Eloy]

how many prisoners will be added to the current 55 by this time next year?

Probably a third of the number that Obama let go and who have returned to the battlefield to savage more civilians and kill people...

I have not seen any data showing that any of the inmates (all uncharged) have gone to a battlefield somewhere or even returning to one. Would you please supply a link to your numbers? Thanks.

I'm surprised to find out that you don't know that fact. WELL known and documented. And no -- if you're THAT far behind in the facts concerning this issue, it would better if YOU looked it up.. It's FUNDAMENTAL to understanding the realities and scope of this problem.

I didn't expect you to provide data about freed inmates going to battlefields somewhere but you did surprise me by admitting you will not be doing so.

 

[flacaltenn]

how many prisoners will be added to the current 55 by this time next year?

Probably a third of the number that Obama let go and who have returned to the battlefield to savage more civilians and kill people...

I have not seen any data showing that any of the inmates (all uncharged) have gone to a battlefield somewhere or even returning to one. Would you please supply a link to your numbers? Thanks.

I'm surprised to find out that you don't know that fact. WELL known and documented. And no -- if you're THAT far behind in the facts concerning this issue, it would better if YOU looked it up.. It's FUNDAMENTAL to understanding the realities and scope of this problem.

I didn't expect you to provide data about freed inmates going to battlefields somewhere but you did surprise me by admitting you will not be doing so.

After Guantanamo, Freed Detainees Returned to Violence in Syria Battlefields

CASABLANCA—A decade ago, the U.S. released three hardened Moroccan militants from Guantanamo and turned them over to the Moroccan government on the assumption they wouldn't return to the battlefield.

They wound up leading one of the most violent Islamist groups fighting in Syria's civil war.

Their story serves as a cautionary tale days after President Barack Obama released five high-level Taliban figures from the same detention center in a swap for an American soldier held in Afghanistan for nearly five years.


By January 2014, about 29% of 614 detainees released from the prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba had returned to violence, according to the Director of National Intelligence.

100s of similar references. So not only are 30% of released detainees RETURNING to the battlefield, but MANY have become KEY leadership in conflict zones. Anything else you need help on to defend your opinion on Gitmo?

 

[flacaltenn]

Pentagon official: Release of Guantanamo detainees has led to American deaths

A senior Pentagon official said Wednesday that the release of detainees from the U.S. military’s prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, has led to American deaths, though he did not provide any specific examples.

Paul Lewis, the Defense Department’s special envoy for Guantanamo closure, told the House Foreign Affairs Committee under questioning that “unfortunately, there have been Americans that have died because of Gitmo detainees.” He did not provide any details on whether those deaths occurred in terrorist attacks or on a military battlefield, or how many Americans were killed.

U.S. officials have said previously that detainees were involved in some operations that killed Americans, including the 2011 attacks in Benghazi, Libya. But Lewis’s comments Wednesday led to new calls to keep the prison open and keep its most hardened detainees there.

The Office of the Director of National Intelligence (DNI) said this monthin its most recent report on former Guantanamo detainees that of the 532 detainees released by Bush, 111 of them are confirmed to have returned to terrorist activities. Twenty-nine of those are dead, 25 are back in custody and 57 remain free. An additional 74 of the 532 detainees are suspected of returning to the battlefield.

Now let me be clear here. I'm no fan of our Mid East policy. It sucks. Under both Dem and Repub admins. But it's an INSULT to the blood, lives and treasure of the people we send to FIGHT these bastards to make them risk their lives and limbs AGAIN to capture rather than kill them on the battleground ---- a 2nd time...

 

[Eloy]

how many prisoners will be added to the current 55 by this time next year?

Probably a third of the number that Obama let go and who have returned to the battlefield to savage more civilians and kill people...

I have not seen any data showing that any of the inmates (all uncharged) have gone to a battlefield somewhere or even returning to one. Would you please supply a link to your numbers? Thanks.

I'm surprised to find out that you don't know that fact. WELL known and documented. And no -- if you're THAT far behind in the facts concerning this issue, it would better if YOU looked it up.. It's FUNDAMENTAL to understanding the realities and scope of this problem.

I didn't expect you to provide data about freed inmates going to battlefields somewhere but you did surprise me by admitting you will not be doing so.

After Guantanamo, Freed Detainees Returned to Violence in Syria Battlefields

CASABLANCA—A decade ago, the U.S. released three hardened Moroccan militants from Guantanamo and turned them over to the Moroccan government on the assumption they wouldn't return to the battlefield.

They wound up leading one of the most violent Islamist groups fighting in Syria's civil war.

Their story serves as a cautionary tale days after President Barack Obama released five high-level Taliban figures from the same detention center in a swap for an American soldier held in Afghanistan for nearly five years.


By January 2014, about 29% of 614 detainees released from the prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba had returned to violence, according to the Director of National Intelligence.

100s of similar references. So not only are 30% of released detainees RETURNING to the battlefield, but MANY have become KEY leadership in conflict zones. Anything else you need help on to defend your opinion on Gitmo?

I would have liked to read the article you cited but there is a paywall on The Wall Street Journal.
You wrote: "Probably a third of the number that Obama let go and who have returned to the battlefield to savage more civilians and kill people..." Are you not interested in those released by George W Bush, then? I wonder why. "However, it’s worth noting that about 90 percent who re-engaged or were suspected of doing so were released before Obama took office when George W. Bush was president. It was while Obama was president that the percent of released detainees who re-entered the battlefield became a Republican talking point."
How many released Guantanamo prisoners re-offend?
So, are you saying about 30% of the 10 percent released by Obama or do you want to revise your estimate?