Guns rarely used for self defence

[Skylar]

You still are avoiding the Japanese and their astonishing rate of suicide, all without the benefit of guns.

I've addressed it directly. This isn't Japan. We aren't Japanese. We have a different culture than Japan.

In this country, guns account for half of all suicides. Having a gun in the house doubles the rate of suicide in that house. And this holds up state to state. States with higher gun ownership rates have higher suicide rates. States with lower gun ownership rates have lower suicide rates. You're more than 80 times more likely to use a gun for suicide than you are to shoot an intruder in self defense.

In Japan, it may be different. Here, that's how it goes down.

Maybe because it blows your bullshit meme out of the water perchance?

You simply ignore the answer you were given and then pretends it doesn't exist.

Which has no impact on US suicide rates, accidental gun injury rates, murder rates for women when a gun is in the house, or murder rates for women when a gun is involved.

They're all significantly higher when a gun is in the house in this country.

 

[9thIDdoc]

"Not when you're discussing guns in the home and whether they actually make you safer. Which I am"

Then you are off the threads stated topic.

"So with no increase in safety from crime by owning a gun..."

You have proven no such thing. You are just begging the question.

 

[RandallFlagg]

From the link:
Adolescent Adolescent Psychiatric Inpatients
Suicides Attempters Non-attempters
Firearm in home: 72% 37% 38%

Gosh! I have to wonder if maybe-just maybe-the fact that the adolescents other than ones with firearms in the home were psychiatric inpatients (watched 24/7 and not allowed ANY harmful items) might affected the results.

My point EXACTLY. I don't know the exact stats - but it seems as though, in the vast majority of these cases, the bad guy has been crazy as hell. Why do we not blame the "so-called" mental health professionals who allow these monsters to walk our streets? Why do we not put these nut jobs away?

 

[Skylar]

The crime rate in Florida decreased substantially when the state enacted concealed carry.

Just like home break ins decreased substantially when the Castle Doctrine was enacted.

Sometimes just having a law like those is a significant deterrent.

Crime rates have trended lower for pretty much everywhere in the US. Even in states that doesn't have Florida's concealed carry or 'castle doctrine' laws as deterrents.

When your 'effect' exists regardless of the existence of your 'cause', your 'cause' isn't.

 

[Skylar]

"Not when you're discussing guns in the home and whether they actually make you safer. Which I am"

Then you are off the threads stated topic.

The thread OP says otherwise:

For every justifiable homicide involving a gun, 32 criminal homicides carried out with a firearm occurred. Also, gun owners are far more likely to hurt themselves or others, than to use them for self defense.

Guns rarely used for self defence US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

I'm right on topic. You're simply trying to change the topic.

 

[RandallFlagg]

The crime rate in Florida decreased substantially when the state enacted concealed carry.

Just like home break ins decreased substantially when the Castle Doctrine was enacted.

Sometimes just having a law like those is a significant deterrent.

I'm looking forward to the latest stats from Kansas - they recently instituted "Constitutional carry" where ANYONE (except felons) can carry without permit.

 

[9thIDdoc]

"No one is arguing that a gun had intentionality. What is being argued is that a gun makes suicide attempts far more likely to succeed. In general suicide attempts succeed about 4% of the time. Suicide attempts with a gun, far more than 90%".

These figures are meaningless because it is impossible to tell actual suicide attempts from acts just intended to get attention. And,again, suicide and defense are two entirely different subjects.

 

[9thIDdoc]

"Not when you're discussing guns in the home and whether they actually make you safer. Which I am"

Then you are off the threads stated topic.

The thread OP says otherwise:

For every justifiable homicide involving a gun, 32 criminal homicides carried out with a firearm occurred. Also, gun owners are far more likely to hurt themselves or others, than to use them for self defense.

Guns rarely used for self defence US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

I'm right on topic. You're simply trying to change the topic.

The thread topic is:
Guns rarely used for self defence

Are you seriously trying to claim suicide and accidents are types of self defense? If not they are obviously different subjects.

 

[Uncensored2008]

First, notice you don't dispute my point that accidental shootings are twice as likely as shooting an intruder. Nor should you. As we both know I'm right.

I notice you don't dispute my point that accidental shootings are a fraction of accidental drownings. Nor should you, as we both know I'm right.

Second, what 'civil right' have I sought to deny others? Recognizing that I own two fire arms myself (well, technically 3) and target shoot regularly.

You argue against the most fundamental right of persons to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves, their family, and their property.

I understand, and armed populace cannot be ruled.

Explain how that works. Or admit you don't know what you're talking about.

You are in this thread arguing against the right of people to defend themselves. The opposition to civil rights is one of the most fundamental goals of the democrats and the left in general.

Show me. Don't tell me. As killing an intruder with a gun in self defense happens about 250 times a year. While suicide with a gun happens about 21,000 times a year. Making the latter an 80 times more likely use of a gun than the former.

You post that as if it has some sort of meaning.

Defense of home and person usually does not require the discharge of a firearm.

And what civil liberty am I seeking to crush? Or are you just reciting a predigested script like some little partisan robot?

Are their any civil rights you don't oppose?

Support of abortion is not support of civil rights.

I do take those odds. None of my guns kept in my home are loaded and I keep all my ammo off site.

And yet here we are.

You should wave that empty gun at some Crips members.

 

[bendog]

You should wave that empty gun at some Crips members.

Unwise, as they tend to be very well armed. But, I'm keeping my pistol handy in any event.

 

[2aguy]

Suicide and defensive use of a firearm are two entirely different subjects.

Not when you're discussing guns in the home and whether they actually make you safer. Which I am.

Suicide rates, murder rates of women when guns are in the home, accidental shooting rates, murder rates of women with guns and DV, etc are all relevant. As are the fact that there's no evidence that owning a gun reduces the odds you'll be a victim of any major crime. Rates of burglary, robbery, home invasion, etc are the same for gun owners as for non-gun owners.

So with no increase in safety from crime by owning a gun.....and a massive increase in risk from suicide, accidental shootings, and murder *within* the home when a gun is present...

....owning a gun for self defense is a shitty, shitty bet.

A gun with its firing pin removed and no ammunition works just as well in the overwhelming majority of defensive uses of firearms. But has none of the risks associated with a fire arm in the home.

I'll take those odds.

I won't. My ex is rather happy she wasn't raped and I'm just frigging ecstatic that I wasn't knifed.

My friend of almost 20 years isn't 'ecstatic' that her son killed himself with a gun she owned. For every 'intruder' shot and killed with a gun, there are more than 80 suicides with a gun.

Accidental shootings are twice as as likely as shooting the 'intruder'. DV incidents with a gun are far more likely by a factor of 5. And a woman is 3 times as likely to be murdered in her home if there is a gun in it.

Those are shit odds.

And with on average 2 million violent crimes stopped and prevented each year and lives saved…that far outweighs accidental gun deaths and injuries….and even suicides with guns….considering they will just change the method….my mother worked with a girl whose boyfriend broke up with her…she drove to an isolated spot and poured gasoline all over herself and the interior of the car….and set herself on fire. Why fire…so she wouldn't stop herself and no one else could save her…and we know this because it was in her suicide note….so again…guns are not the problem……explain Russia, France, Denmark, Sweden….all have strict gun control and higher suicide rates than the U.S.

 

[Skylar]

And with on average 2 million violent crimes stopped and prevented each year and lives saved…

2 million violent crimes prevented a year, huh? Can you back that stat up?

nd even suicides with guns….considering they will just change the method….

They might attempt a suicide using a different method. But suicides only succeed about 4% of the time. If you're using a gun, it jumps to more than 90%. Guns are so effective that more than half of all suicides are by gun. That's more than all other methods put together.

And having a gun actually increases the odds of suicide by about double. So no, they won't commit suicide by another method. They might attempt it, but they'll almost certainly fail.

 

[blackhawk]

It's been my experience smart, responsible intelligent gun owners don't kill themselves or a family member with there own gun.

Too bad there are so many gun owners that don't fall anywhere close to the category of being "smart, responsible [and] intelligent"!

I would say the majority do the problem is it's the ones who don't that always get the headlines.

 

[2aguy]

Okay...smart anti gun extremists......if guns are the problem....why do France, Belgium, Finland, Luxembourg and Sweden all have a higher suicide rate than we do....

And we are at 10.2 while denmark is 10.1........

SUICIDE DEATH RATE BY COUNTRY

If having a gun has nothing to do with suicide rates in this country.....then why does having a gun in your home here double your odds of suicide? Why are more than half of all suicides in the US gun inflicted?

And why are guns used in so few *attempted* suicides. Despite suicides outnumbered by suicide attempts by a factor about 25 to 1.

easy...take guns out of the homes of those suicidal people...and they will still commit suicide.......it didn't change the suicide rates in countries that banned guns like Australia...they simply changed methods....

It changes them in this country. Which is what we're discussing. A person may *attempt* suicide if there is no gun in the home. But 96% of suicide attempts are survivd. While far less than 10% of suicide attempts with a gun are survived.

Which is why more than half of all suicides involve a gun.

Suicide is a mental issue, not a gun issue.....people who want to kill themselves do...like in Japan, South Korea, China, France, Denmark Ukraine, Sweden and Russia....all have more gun control than we do and higher suicide rates than we do....

And in this country, with our culture, guns increase suicide rates. States with higher gun ownership rates have higher suicide rates. States with lower gun ownership rates have lower suicide rates.

What they do in Japan doesn't affect any of these numbers. What we do here does.

yes…because you state having a gun increases the suicide rate……Japan, South Korea and China show you otherwise….and France….France has a higher suicide rate than we do as does Belgium………and they have stricter gun control than we do…they have extreme gun control…….

 

[2aguy]

And with on average 2 million violent crimes stopped and prevented each year and lives saved…

2 million violent crimes prevented a year, huh? Can you back that stat up?

nd even suicides with guns….considering they will just change the method….

They might attempt a suicide using a different method. But suicides only succeed about 4% of the time. If you're using a gun, it jumps to more than 90%. Guns are so effective that more than half of all suicides are by gun. That's more than all other methods put together.

And having a gun actually increases the odds of suicide by about double. So no, they won't commit suicide by another method. They might attempt it, but they'll almost certainly fail.

Yes…I can back it up…….and countries that have banned guns have not seen a reduction in suicides…...

 

[bendog]

I was sort of curious how the SF law requiring hand guns to be secured was consistent with Heller. I was thinking of responding to the more paniced takes on "they're gonna take away our guns." Which they aren't. and can't do. I found this in SF's brief to the supreme court arguing that the court shouldn't take the case, and the court ended up declining the case.


The District of Columbia ordinance at issue in

Heller “totally ban[ned] handgun possession in the


home.” 554 U.S. at 628. The ordinance also required

“that firearms in the home be rendered and kept inoperable

at all times,” even during emergencies. Id. at


630 (emphasis added). Although the Court’s opinion

10

in Heller was lengthy, it devoted only a single paragraph


to the validity of the District’s trigger-lock

requirement. What petitioners characterize as “crystal

clear” evidence of the impermissibility of San

Francisco’s ordinance, Pet. 10, reads in its entirety:

“We must also address the District’s requirement (as

applied to respondent’s handgun) that firearms in the

home be rendered and kept inoperable at all times.

This makes it impossible for citizens to use them for


the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence

unconstitutional.” Heller, 554 U.S. at 630 (emphasis


added).

In contrast, San Francisco’s ordinance allows

citizens to carry loaded and unlocked handguns on

their person at any time, including in a holster. It

also allows citizens to store loaded handguns within

an easily opened lockbox rather than “disassembled

or bound by a trigger lock at all times.” Heller, 554


U.S. at 628. San Francisco’s ordinance does not

regulate the use or storage of long guns. Perhaps

most importantly, San Francisco’s storage law allows

handguns to be used for self-defense, in contrast to

the District’s absolute inoperability requirement,

which contained no exception allowing a gun to be

assembled or untethered from a trigger lock for selfdefense

uses. Id. at 630 (holding that any self-defense


exception was “precluded by the unequivocal text” of

the District’s ordinance). Moreover, the district court

found, and the court of appeals agreed, that in light

of San Francisco’s showing that modern lockboxes

allow ready access to handguns, the ordinance did

11

not impair the ability of citizens to use those guns for

self-defense.

Thus, petitioners are flatly wrong when they

suggest that San Francisco’s ordinance “has the very

same forbidden effect” as the District’s absolute ban.

Pet. 10. On the contrary, Heller itself disavows “the


invalidity of laws regulating the storage of firearms

to prevent accidents” because such laws “do not

remotely burden the right of self-defense as much as

an absolute ban on handguns.” 554 U.S. at 632. The

circuit court’s determination that the San Francisco

law imposes only an insubstantial burden on the

Second Amendment right, and is therefore a valid

storage law, is consistent with Heller’s reasoning and


its conclusion.
http://sblog.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/2015-03-13-CCSFs-Brief-in-Opposition.pdf

 

[2aguy]

And with on average 2 million violent crimes stopped and prevented each year and lives saved…

2 million violent crimes prevented a year, huh? Can you back that stat up?

nd even suicides with guns….considering they will just change the method….

They might attempt a suicide using a different method. But suicides only succeed about 4% of the time. If you're using a gun, it jumps to more than 90%. Guns are so effective that more than half of all suicides are by gun. That's more than all other methods put together.

And having a gun actually increases the odds of suicide by about double. So no, they won't commit suicide by another method. They might attempt it, but they'll almost certainly fail.

Here you go...notice how many of the studies were conducted by anti gunners like clinton, the serial sexual predator and obama's CDC....

I just averaged the studies......which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC

And these aren't all of the studies either...there are more...and they support the ones below.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)
DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)
Kleck...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

 

[bendog]

Apparently, the 19 year old shooter's father bought him a .45ACP for Christmas. The kid had no job, wasn't in school, stayed in his room a lot, and had charges for drugs and trespass. But they never saw this coming. Sigh.

 

[Skylar]

I notice you don't dispute my point that accidental shootings are a fraction of accidental drownings. Nor should you, as we both know I'm right.

Accidental drowings have nothing to do with gun deaths. Accidental shootings do. You have yet to refute my point that an accidental shooting is twice as likely as shooting an intruder.

A gun doesn't make you safer.

Second, what 'civil right' have I sought to deny others? Recognizing that I own two fire arms myself (well, technically 3) and target shoot regularly.

You argue against the most fundamental right of persons to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves, their family, and their property.

And where have I done this?

Quote me.

I understand, and armed populace cannot be ruled.

You clearly don't understand. As you're not quoting me. You're quoting an imaginary character inside your head that you're pretending is me.

And that's not 'understanding'. That's what we call 'delusion'.

You are in this thread arguing against the right of people to defend themselves. The opposition to civil rights is one of the most fundamental goals of the democrats and the left in general.

I've never argued you shouldn't be able to own a gun or use it. I've argued that a gun is far more likely to hurt you and your family than an intruder when kept in your home.

Again, you're scripting. Just reciting some prechewed, predigested, canned and mechanical argument. And it has nothing to do with me.

Show me. Don't tell me. As killing an intruder with a gun in self defense happens about 250 times a year. While suicide with a gun happens about 21,000 times a year. Making the latter an 80 times more likely use of a gun than the former.

You post that as if it has some sort of meaning.

It means guns are 80 times more likely to be used for suicide than in shooting an intruder.

Defense of home and person usually does not require the discharge of a firearm.

Which is why I've argued that a gun without a firing pin or ammunition is far more useful in increasing the safety of you family than an actual gun is. You get all the 'does not require the discharge of of a firearm' benefits with none of accompanying harm to your family or yourself.

As a functioning gun in your home doesn't make you safer. Quite the opposite. The presence of a functioning gun in the home endangers your family.

 

[Uncensored2008]

You should wave that empty gun at some Crips members.

Unwise, as they tend to be very well armed. But, I'm keeping my pistol handy in any event.

Soros hate drone Skyler claims that a "toy gun" is just as effective as a real one - so she should be happy to test her theory. I even offered to nominate her for a Darwin award!