Guns rarely used for self defence

[Ernie S.]

For those usages, wouldn't a toy gun work just as well?

I urge you to try that and will even nominate you for a Darwin Award.

Will I win an award when no one in my family is accidentally shot, nor commits suicide with the toy gun? Accidental shootings are twice as likely as shooting an intruder. A gun in the home is 80 times more likely to be used for suicide than shooting an intruder. While the odds of having to fire your weapon at an intruder less than half the odds of being struck by lightning.

Its a numbers game. And in the overwhelming majority of defensive uses of fire arms a toy gun works just as well as a real one.

I'll take those odds.

I have not had to fire my weapon, but I have discouraged an armed robbery and the attempted rape of my ex-wife. In both cases, the bad guy backed down. Had he not, a toy gun would have been useless.
I carry, usually 16 hours/day. My wife carries, my business partners carry. My security carries and most of my customers are aware of that. Consequently, security doesn't get a lot of grief.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Will I win an award when no one in my family is accidentally shot, nor commits suicide with the toy gun?

Will I?

Accidental shootings are twice as likely as shooting an intruder.

Accidental shootings are a fraction of accidental drownings. You seek to deny civil rights to others - but your propaganda is a farce.

A gun in the home is 80 times more likely to be used for suicide than shooting an intruder.

That's a lie that was debunked 20 + years ago - yet as a gun grabber - you continue to spew it. You of the anti-liberty left simply have zero integrity. You seek to crush civil rights and have no problem lying in your quest to deny civil liberty to your neighbor.

While the odds of having to fire your weapon at an intruder less than half the odds of being struck by lightning.

Its a numbers game. And in the overwhelming majority of defensive uses of fire arms a toy gun works just as well as a real one.

I'll take those odds.

I urge you to take the odds. In fact. I think you should show how smart you anti-liberty types are by brandishing a toy gun at some Crips down in Compton - no doubt they will be impressed by your leftism and respect your use of props!

 

[Skylar]

[
It changes them in this country. Which is what we're discussing. A person may *attempt* suicide if there is no gun in the home. But 96% of suicide attempts are survivd. While far less than 10% of suicide attempts with a gun are survived.

Which is why more than half of all suicides involve a gun.

Really?

Care to offer a source for your claim?

Would it matter? You're just going to denounce it as coming from 'George Soros' anyway. Making the presentation of evidence to you a waste of both our times.

For those who are interested, the CDC links I've offfered already cover it.

And in this country, with our culture, guns increase suicide rates. States with higher gun ownership rates have higher suicide rates. States with lower gun ownership rates have lower suicide rates.

That is a blatant lie.

Says you. Studies of the topic say otherwise:

Firearm Access is a Risk Factor for Suicide Means Matter Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health

I'm more inclined to believe them than you.

It does though expose your lie that guns are the cause of suicide.

Suicide attempts cause suicide. Guns merely make it wildly more successful. With 4% of suicide attempts succeeding. But far more than 90% of suicide attempts with a gun succeeding.

The rates of suicide *attempts* may be comparable between US homes that have guns and those that don't. But the rates of 'succeeding' at suicide is far higher in homes with guns. Which is why guns are involved in more than half of all suicides in the US.

 

[9thIDdoc]

Suicide and defensive use of a firearm are two entirely different subjects.

It should be noted that defensive use of a firearm also includes defense against animals and snakes. Waving a firearm around is not likely to scare off a snake, bear, or rabid dog.

 

[Skylar]

Suicide and defensive use of a firearm are two entirely different subjects.

Not when you're discussing guns in the home and whether they actually make you safer. Which I am.

Suicide rates, murder rates of women when guns are in the home, accidental shooting rates, murder rates of women with guns and DV, etc are all relevant. As are the fact that there's no evidence that owning a gun reduces the odds you'll be a victim of any major crime. Rates of burglary, robbery, home invasion, etc are the same for gun owners as for non-gun owners.

So with no increase in safety from crime by owning a gun.....and a massive increase in risk from suicide, accidental shootings, and murder *within* the home when a gun is present...

....owning a gun for self defense is a shitty, shitty bet.

A gun with its firing pin removed and no ammunition works just as well in the overwhelming majority of defensive uses of firearms. But has none of the risks associated with a fire arm in the home.

I'll take those odds.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Would it matter? You're just going to denounce it as coming from 'George Soros' anyway. Making the presentation of evidence to you a waste of both our times.

For those who are interested, the CDC links I've offfered already cover it.

So you just made it up because you figured no one would question it.

That actually is the case in most of the gun-grabbing propaganda you opponents of civil rights spewn

Says you. Studies of the topic say otherwise:

Firearm Access is a Risk Factor for Suicide Means Matter Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health

I'm more inclined to believe them than you.

Your link certainly doesn't support your anti-liberty claims;

{The evidence isn’t strong for either of these hypotheses. Most studies of rurality and depression (not all, but most) have found that people in rural areas do not have higher rates of depression than those in urban areas (e.g., Wang 2004). In addition, data from the National Comorbidity Study indicate that people living in homes with guns are about as likely as those living in homes without guns to suffer from depression, substance use problems, and suicidal thoughts (Ilgin 2008).}

Suicide attempts cause suicide. Guns merely make it wildly more successful. With 4% of suicide attempts succeeding. But far more than 90% of suicide attempts with a gun succeeding.

The rates of suicide *attempts* may be comparable between US homes that have guns and those that don't. But the rates of 'succeeding' at suicide is far higher in homes with guns. Which is why guns are involved in more than half of all suicides in the US.

Yet you claimed the rate of suicide higher in states that support civil rights - where the researchers concede that causality is not confirmed. Put a shotgun in your mouth and pull the trigger, there is no turning back. Still, the desire to do harm to oneself is the ONLY cause of suicide.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Not when you're discussing guns in the home and whether they actually make you safer. Which I am.

Suicide rates, murder rates of women when guns are in the home, accidental shooting rates, murder rates of women with guns and DV, etc are all relevant. As are the fact that there's no evidence that owning a gun reduces the odds you'll be a victim of any major crime. Rates of burglary, robbery, home invasion, etc are the same for gun owners as for non-gun owners.

So with no increase in safety from crime by owning a gun.....and a massive increase in risk from suicide, accidental shootings, and murder *within* the home when a gun is present...

....owning a gun for self defense is a shitty, shitty bet.

A gun with its firing pin removed and no ammunition works just as well in the overwhelming majority of defensive uses of firearms. But has none of the risks associated with a fire arm in the home.

I'll take those odds.

No one has ever promoted a law that forces you to keep a gun in your house.

We merely oppose your quest to deny civil rights to others.

If you don't want to own a gun, don't own one. You simply don't get to revoke my civil rights, as you yearn to do.

 

[Skylar]

Will I win an award when no one in my family is accidentally shot, nor commits suicide with the toy gun?

Will I?

Accidental shootings are twice as likely as shooting an intruder.

Accidental shootings are a fraction of accidental drownings. You seek to deny civil rights to others - but your propaganda is a farce.

First, notice you don't dispute my point that accidental shootings are twice as likely as shooting an intruder. Nor should you. As we both know I'm right.

Second, what 'civil right' have I sought to deny others? Recognizing that I own two fire arms myself (well, technically 3) and target shoot regularly.

Explain how that works. Or admit you don't know what you're talking about.

A gun in the home is 80 times more likely to be used for suicide than shooting an intruder.

That's a lie that was debunked 20 + years ago - yet as a gun grabber - you continue to spew it.

Show me. Don't tell me. As killing an intruder with a gun in self defense happens about 250 times a year. While suicide with a gun happens about 21,000 times a year. Making the latter an 80 times more likely use of a gun than the former.

You of the anti-liberty left simply have zero integrity. You seek to crush civil rights and have no problem lying in your quest to deny civil liberty to your neighbor.

And what civil liberty am I seeking to crush? Or are you just reciting a predigested script like some little partisan robot?

I urge you to take the odds. In fact. I think you should show how smart you anti-liberty types are by brandishing a toy gun at some Crips down in Compton - no doubt they will be impressed by your leftism and respect your use of props!

I do take those odds. None of my guns kept in my home are loaded and I keep all my ammo off site.

And yet here we are.

 

[Vandalshandle]

Guns rarely used for self-defense in US - Yahoo News

For every justifiable homicide involving a gun, 32 criminal homicides carried out with a firearm occurred. Also, gun owners are far more likely to hurt themselves or others, than to use them for self defense.

I have thousands of hours of military training with every gun imaginable. I have NEVER hurt myself and the only time I have EVER taken a human life was at the behest of the United States government. Break into MY house and they will carry the perp out - feet first.

But, you go ahead with your "confiscation" ideas.

As I and my local Sheriff were discussing a few months back - if there were ever a confiscation order given - he would not enforce it. I don't blame him for one minute. I would HATE to be the first LEO through the door of most gun owners houses. Wise up guy. Let's begin re-opening the mental institutions (that we closed long ago) and get the monsters off the streets rather than allowing them to run wild.

Right, Flagg. We are all plotting to come get your guns in the middle of the night. we need them to invade Texas.

 

[Skylar]

Not when you're discussing guns in the home and whether they actually make you safer. Which I am.

Suicide rates, murder rates of women when guns are in the home, accidental shooting rates, murder rates of women with guns and DV, etc are all relevant. As are the fact that there's no evidence that owning a gun reduces the odds you'll be a victim of any major crime. Rates of burglary, robbery, home invasion, etc are the same for gun owners as for non-gun owners.

So with no increase in safety from crime by owning a gun.....and a massive increase in risk from suicide, accidental shootings, and murder *within* the home when a gun is present...

....owning a gun for self defense is a shitty, shitty bet.

A gun with its firing pin removed and no ammunition works just as well in the overwhelming majority of defensive uses of firearms. But has none of the risks associated with a fire arm in the home.

I'll take those odds.

No one has ever promoted a law that forces you to keep a gun in your house.

Strawman. I've never claimed they have.

We merely oppose your quest to deny civil rights to others.

What quest? What civil right am I seeking to deny anyone?

And get specific. Its best if you can quote me saying it.

If you don't want to own a gun, don't own one. You simply don't get to revoke my civil rights, as you yearn to do.

I own 3, though only 2 are relevant to this conversation. And none are loaded, with all ammo kept off site. I target practice regularly. The third is a rifle from my grandfather that floats around our family. Its technically mine, but goes to who ever is hunting this weekend.

It might help if you put the partisan script down and actually read what you were responding to.

 

[Ernie S.]

Suicide and defensive use of a firearm are two entirely different subjects.

Not when you're discussing guns in the home and whether they actually make you safer. Which I am.

Suicide rates, murder rates of women when guns are in the home, accidental shooting rates, murder rates of women with guns and DV, etc are all relevant. As are the fact that there's no evidence that owning a gun reduces the odds you'll be a victim of any major crime. Rates of burglary, robbery, home invasion, etc are the same for gun owners as for non-gun owners.

So with no increase in safety from crime by owning a gun.....and a massive increase in risk from suicide, accidental shootings, and murder *within* the home when a gun is present...

....owning a gun for self defense is a shitty, shitty bet.

A gun with its firing pin removed and no ammunition works just as well in the overwhelming majority of defensive uses of firearms. But has none of the risks associated with a fire arm in the home.

I'll take those odds.

I won't. My ex is rather happy she wasn't raped and I'm just frigging ecstatic that I wasn't knifed.

 

[Skylar]

Guns rarely used for self-defense in US - Yahoo News

For every justifiable homicide involving a gun, 32 criminal homicides carried out with a firearm occurred. Also, gun owners are far more likely to hurt themselves or others, than to use them for self defense.

I have thousands of hours of military training with every gun imaginable. I have NEVER hurt myself and the only time I have EVER taken a human life was at the behest of the United States government. Break into MY house and they will carry the perp out - feet first.

But, you go ahead with your "confiscation" ideas.

As I and my local Sheriff were discussing a few months back - if there were ever a confiscation order given - he would not enforce it. I don't blame him for one minute. I would HATE to be the first LEO through the door of most gun owners houses. Wise up guy. Let's begin re-opening the mental institutions (that we closed long ago) and get the monsters off the streets rather than allowing them to run wild.

Right, Flagg. We are all plotting to come get your guns in the middle of the night. we need them to invade Texas.

Open Carry and all the mud from the storms will keep the US military at bay.

 

[Skylar]

Suicide and defensive use of a firearm are two entirely different subjects.

Not when you're discussing guns in the home and whether they actually make you safer. Which I am.

Suicide rates, murder rates of women when guns are in the home, accidental shooting rates, murder rates of women with guns and DV, etc are all relevant. As are the fact that there's no evidence that owning a gun reduces the odds you'll be a victim of any major crime. Rates of burglary, robbery, home invasion, etc are the same for gun owners as for non-gun owners.

So with no increase in safety from crime by owning a gun.....and a massive increase in risk from suicide, accidental shootings, and murder *within* the home when a gun is present...

....owning a gun for self defense is a shitty, shitty bet.

A gun with its firing pin removed and no ammunition works just as well in the overwhelming majority of defensive uses of firearms. But has none of the risks associated with a fire arm in the home.

I'll take those odds.

I won't. My ex is rather happy she wasn't raped and I'm just frigging ecstatic that I wasn't knifed.

My friend of almost 20 years isn't 'ecstatic' that her son killed himself with a gun she owned. For every 'intruder' shot and killed with a gun, there are more than 80 suicides with a gun.

Accidental shootings are twice as as likely as shooting the 'intruder'. DV incidents with a gun are far more likely by a factor of 5. And a woman is 3 times as likely to be murdered in her home if there is a gun in it.

Those are shit odds.

 

[bendog]

It's all irrelevant since we each have a right to buy firearms if we choose. I'd like more disposable income for more guns, personally. Colt's defunct, and the darn gun grabbers got them to stop making the King Cobra two decades ago.

Sadly, it isn't irrelevant......we are one Supreme Court Justice away from losing gun rights left and right.....and if hilary, the woman who protected her sexual predator husband gets in, she will appoint more than one supreme court justice....stacking the deck against freedom.....

You're hysterical.

 

[Flash]

The crime rate in Florida decreased substantially when the state enacted concealed carry.

Just like home break ins decreased substantially when the Castle Doctrine was enacted.

Sometimes just having a law like those is a significant deterrent.

 

[Ernie S.]

Suicide and defensive use of a firearm are two entirely different subjects.

Not when you're discussing guns in the home and whether they actually make you safer. Which I am.

Suicide rates, murder rates of women when guns are in the home, accidental shooting rates, murder rates of women with guns and DV, etc are all relevant. As are the fact that there's no evidence that owning a gun reduces the odds you'll be a victim of any major crime. Rates of burglary, robbery, home invasion, etc are the same for gun owners as for non-gun owners.

So with no increase in safety from crime by owning a gun.....and a massive increase in risk from suicide, accidental shootings, and murder *within* the home when a gun is present...

....owning a gun for self defense is a shitty, shitty bet.

A gun with its firing pin removed and no ammunition works just as well in the overwhelming majority of defensive uses of firearms. But has none of the risks associated with a fire arm in the home.

I'll take those odds.

I won't. My ex is rather happy she wasn't raped and I'm just frigging ecstatic that I wasn't knifed.

My friend of almost 20 years isn't 'ecstatic' that her son killed himself with a gun she owned. For every 'intruder' shot and killed with a gun, there are more than 80 suicides with a gun.

Accidental shootings are twice as as likely as shooting the 'intruder'. DV incidents with a gun are far more likely by a factor of 5. And a woman is 3 times as likely to be murdered in her home if there is a gun in it.

Those are shit odds.

Bullshit. Sorry for your friend's loss. I too have lost someone dear to me to suicide. The difference is, I don't blame the means.
A gun is an inanimate object. It does exactly what it is intended to do. Blame, if any, belongs to the person who pulls the trigger.

 

[Skylar]

Suicide and defensive use of a firearm are two entirely different subjects.

Not when you're discussing guns in the home and whether they actually make you safer. Which I am.

Suicide rates, murder rates of women when guns are in the home, accidental shooting rates, murder rates of women with guns and DV, etc are all relevant. As are the fact that there's no evidence that owning a gun reduces the odds you'll be a victim of any major crime. Rates of burglary, robbery, home invasion, etc are the same for gun owners as for non-gun owners.

So with no increase in safety from crime by owning a gun.....and a massive increase in risk from suicide, accidental shootings, and murder *within* the home when a gun is present...

....owning a gun for self defense is a shitty, shitty bet.

A gun with its firing pin removed and no ammunition works just as well in the overwhelming majority of defensive uses of firearms. But has none of the risks associated with a fire arm in the home.

I'll take those odds.

I won't. My ex is rather happy she wasn't raped and I'm just frigging ecstatic that I wasn't knifed.

My friend of almost 20 years isn't 'ecstatic' that her son killed himself with a gun she owned. For every 'intruder' shot and killed with a gun, there are more than 80 suicides with a gun.

Accidental shootings are twice as as likely as shooting the 'intruder'. DV incidents with a gun are far more likely by a factor of 5. And a woman is 3 times as likely to be murdered in her home if there is a gun in it.

Those are shit odds.

Bullshit. Sorry for your friend's loss. I too have lost someone dear to me to suicide. The difference is, I don't blame the means.
A gun is an inanimate object. It does exactly what it is intended to do. Blame, if any, belongs to the person who pulls the trigger.

No one is arguing that a gun had intentionality. What is being argued is that a gun makes suicide attempts far more likely to succeed. In general suicide attempts succeed about 4% of the time. Suicide attempts with a gun, far more than 90%.

Which is why half of all suicides in the US involve a gun. And why having a gun in the house doubles the odds of suicide. Suicide attempts may be comparable between homes that have guns and those that don't. But 'success' rates at suicide are far higher in homes with guns.

Roughly double.

 

[westwall]

And once again, the Japanese experience proves you are wrong.

It doesn't. As we're not Japanese and this isn't Japan. We're American. And in our nation and culture access to guns increases the odds of suicide by double. You can go state by state, and the states with higher gun ownership rates have higher suicide rates. The States with lower gun ownership rates have lower suicide rates.

Demonstrating elegantly than in this country that a gun in the home doubles the rate of suicide.

It triples the odds of a woman being murdered without taking domestic violence into account. And quintuples the odds if there is DV. You're twice as likely to die from an accidental shooting than shoot an intruder. Its 80 times more likely that your gun will be used for suicide than shooting an intruder.

Worse, you've already admitted that the overwhelming majority of defensive use of fire arms is pulling the weapon and NOT firing. Making a gun without a firing pin or ammo just as effective in the overwhelming majority of defensive uses of a fire arm.

But with none of the accompanying risks to you or your family.

Simply put, a gun in the home for self defense does NOT make you safer. But less safe.

You have no idea what you are talking about...and are foolish to have a gun that doesn't work....

I know exactly what I'm talking about. As I none of my guns in my home are loaded, with my ammo stored off site. So I know far more about this topic than you do.

As was pointed out, the overwhelming majority of defensive uses of fire involve pulling the weapon but NOT firing it. Thus, an unloaded gun works just as well as a loaded on in the overwhelming jajority of defensive uses.

And has none of the horrible outcomes

A woman in a home with a non alcoholic, non drug using, non criminal male and a gun has nothing to fear...it is the drugs, alcohol and crime that lead to higher rates of women dying at the hands of men...they need to pick better men......

Suicide and accidental shootings are no respecter of your assumptions. And having a gun

And again....you guys don't want to admit that guns aren't the issue in suicide since Japan, China, and South Korea all have higher incidents of suicide than we do...and no guns......

As you pointed out, we don't share a common culture with any of those countries...or Australia, GB, or Canada. In THIS country, a gun in the home doubles suicide rates. With states that higher gun ownership rates having higher suicide rates. And states with lower gun ownership rates having lower suicide rates.

Guns make virtually every suicide attempt a successful one. And guns make impulsive suicide attempts much easier. If you're going to jump off a bridge for example, you've gotta drive all the way down to the bridge. If you want to shoot yourself with a gun, you need only reach across the table. From decision to execution, its a handful of seconds. Where other suicide methods can take hours or even days to prepare for.

Which is why half of our suicides involve guns (21,000 gun suicides). But more than 1,000,000 suicide attempts. You don't 'attempt' suicide with a gun. You do it.

Guns make virtually every suicide attempt a successful one.

As does jumping in front of a train or off of a building...and hanging seems to work pretty well too...since it is the most common way to kill yourself......

Oh, there are equally effective ways of killing yourself. But they take more prep time. The success rate for a suicide attempts in about 4%. 96% survive. While way more than 90% of attempts at suicide with a gun succeed.

Which is why guns are associated with more than HALF of all suicides in this country. And why having a gun in the home doubles your rate of actually killing yourself.

And China, Japan, South Korea and Lithuainia have all have higher suicide rates than us...

As you've pointed out, we don't share a culture with China, Japan, South Korea, or Lithuania. In this country, a gun in your home doubles your chances of suicide.

Robin Williams hung himself to death. That is one of the most agonizing ways to die. I hate that he is gone, but I truly wish he had used a gun to save himself the agony. You still are avoiding the Japanese and their astonishing rate of suicide, all without the benefit of guns.

Maybe because it blows your bullshit meme out of the water perchance?

 

[9thIDdoc]

From the link:
Adolescent Adolescent Psychiatric Inpatients
Suicides Attempters Non-attempters
Firearm in home: 72% 37% 38%

Gosh! I have to wonder if maybe-just maybe-the fact that the adolescents other than ones with firearms in the home were psychiatric inpatients (watched 24/7 and not allowed ANY harmful items) might affected the results.

 

[RandallFlagg]

Guns rarely used for self-defense in US - Yahoo News

For every justifiable homicide involving a gun, 32 criminal homicides carried out with a firearm occurred. Also, gun owners are far more likely to hurt themselves or others, than to use them for self defense.

I have thousands of hours of military training with every gun imaginable. I have NEVER hurt myself and the only time I have EVER taken a human life was at the behest of the United States government. Break into MY house and they will carry the perp out - feet first.

But, you go ahead with your "confiscation" ideas.

As I and my local Sheriff were discussing a few months back - if there were ever a confiscation order given - he would not enforce it. I don't blame him for one minute. I would HATE to be the first LEO through the door of most gun owners houses. Wise up guy. Let's begin re-opening the mental institutions (that we closed long ago) and get the monsters off the streets rather than allowing them to run wild.

Right, Flagg. We are all plotting to come get your guns in the middle of the night. we need them to invade Texas.

Anytime.......bring your best.