Has any private citizen EVER fired more than 20 shots in Self-Defense? EVER?

[IlarMeilyr]

You only miss your rights when you need them and they're gone.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

Since the 2nd Amendment also pertains to the Militia, both organized and unorganized your point is meaningless. As a Militia the people need to have the same carry capacity as the military. Which is 30 rounds for the supposed assault weapons.

Just out of curiosity, when was the last time the militia was called up? The Spanish - American War?

Because we now have a TREMENDOUS professional army, which is the greatest threat to American liberty today.

What we should do, is decrease the size of our military by 90%, in instead of having 18 year old men sign up for the Selective Service (draft), provide them with 12 weeks of free training how to use a current standard military issue rifle and send them home with that rifle for free (assuming they pass basic sanity tests and have no negative psychiatric history).

Now you would have an entire nation prepared to defend itself against foreign threats at any time, while not having to fear that military might being used to oppress the people.

Oh, isn't this how our Founding Fathers intended it?

 

[Avatar4321]

Does it matter? if I have a mob of a dozen people attacking me, i want a hell of alot more than 20 rounds.

 

[jtpr312]

Yeah, duruing the War of Northern Aggression private citizens fired millions of rounds in self defense against the illegal invasion by federal troops.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

Well, guess I got my answer. Never, not once, in recent history has a private citizen needed over 20 rounds in a self defense situation.

I had posted an answer, but I'm not allowed to post URL's due to trial account restrictions.

This is an example from MY OWN town.

newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/09/07/long-island-man-arrested-for-defending-home-with-ak-47/]Long Island Man Arrested For Defending Home With AK-47 « CBS New York

The man was acquitted later. However, the very fact that he had the ABILITY to use 30+ rounds in rapid time, and the hostiles were aware of it, made them NOT proceed with their assault.

Thus, the reason you don't hear about these things too often, is because criminals ARE NOT dumb enough to engage people who have these weapons, they choose a far weaker target instead.

 

[jtpr312]

Well, guess I got my answer. Never, not once, in recent history has a private citizen needed over 20 rounds in a self defense situation.

Make up your mind son. You're resetting the bar. You never said anythng about "recent history", you said; "Has any private citizen EVER fired more than 20 shots in Self-Defense? EVER?" You even mentions and capitalized ever twice. The instances of citizens using more than 20rd in self defense in our history is hundreds of times starting with the War for Indenpendce and just a few years ago at Waco.

 

[OriginalShroom]

Well, guess I got my answer. Never, not once, in recent history has a private citizen needed over 20 rounds in a self defense situation.

I had posted an answer, but I'm not allowed to post URL's due to trial account restrictions.

This is an example from MY OWN town.

newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/09/07/long-island-man-arrested-for-defending-home-with-ak-47/]Long Island Man Arrested For Defending Home With AK-47 « CBS New York

The man was acquitted later. However, the very fact that he had the ABILITY to use 30+ rounds in rapid time, and the hostiles were aware of it, made them NOT proceed with their assault.

Thus, the reason you don't hear about these things too often, is because criminals ARE NOT dumb enough to engage people who have these weapons, they choose a far weaker target instead.

I remember that.

I am very glad he was acquitted.

As some would say, I would rather face a jury of 12 than be carried by 6.

 

[Redbone]

I wouldn't know.

What I do know is that I carry 31 rounds with me whenever I leave the house. Even if I am just going to Wal*Mart.

Can I respectfully ask why?

I carry a Smith and Wesson M&P compact .40. 10 rounds. I have an extra 10 round mag in the truck, with an extra box of ammo (not loaded, dont want the spring to wear down). I've never felt under-armed for what I may realistically face (although unlikely).

I would suggest that you never feeling under-armed with 20 rounds is fine for you. It has zero bearing upon the quantity another person feels to be adequate. How would you like to be told how many knives, hammers, cars , homes or hamburgers you need or should have?

My freedom to carry more or less ammo is none of your business. Feel free to carry even less. You being so secure with 20 rounds how about cutting it to ten ? You know , up your confidence.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

I remember that.

I am very glad he was acquitted.

As some would say, I would rather face a jury of 12 than be carried by 6.

It's a travesty that he was even arrested to begin with. He only shot 4 bullets into the grass.

You and I probably do NOT agree on most issues (for instance I'm in favor of national healthcare, I see it as a Ninth Amendment Right).

However, I'm glad to say that you and agree on what is most important, The 2nd Amendment, the only barrier between you and tyranny.[/I]

EDIT:

Also where is the OP since I provided this example?

It like posting about the The Battle of Athens, Tennessee, 1946, when the people overthrew the State government. Suddenly all the gun-control kids go home, knowing they've lost the argument completely.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

Hello gun hating OP, I'm calling you out to play.

 

[Freewill]

Yes, at the Alamo.

 

[blackhawk]

I will fire as many shots as necessary be it 2 or 20.

 

[martybegan]

The only "out" cops and former cops have is the Patriot Act allows all cops and former cops to carry concealed (without permit) nationwide, anywhere except military bases and courts. I guess the reasoning is that they know cops have the safety and tactical training to act should a terror attack or mass shooting break out. BUT, I think the same rule should apply to former military members, or at least certain military jobs or ranks (not sure, military guys could add better info on this).

But as for all other gun laws, cops aren't exempt. We cant have a full auto M4 without the stamp, just like you cant either without it....unless we are on duty. And even then the department must buy and issue it.

I disagree with that part of the law. Once you are no longer a police officer, or even off duty you should have to conform to the exact same laws the rest of us have to follow. On Duty you can be issued whatever is needed, but at the end of the day (in new york) you should have to put it in the armory, and slap on that 7 shot pea shooter everyone else is allowed to carry.

Yeah, Im torn on it too. I saw a lot of guys come and go, do 2-4 years as a cop, and get out because they simply had no business doing that job. But once they left, they are "former cops" and can carry. I'd be ok with retired cops, who did their 25 years. They are a bit more trustworthy.

I see the approach that with the modern day in age, we have terrorism and crazy ass idiots out there, so while the cops are minutes away, maybe some former cops are nearby. But, like I said, our ex-military guys should have the same right. AND, I would not be against a National Concealed Carry Permit, which would have a much lengthier process and training requirement for private citizens, sort of like a mini-boot camp or police academy, 2-5 weeks or something.

Anything a retired peace officer or a former military person could own HAS to be ownable by a normal citizen. Again you don't want to create two classes of citizens, one of which has extra rights by way of being part of the government. There used to be people like that in feudalism, they were called Knights or "My Lord"

 

[Mad Scientist]

I never have but I know the day will come when I may have to.

 

[Redbone]

I never have but I know the day will come when I may have to.

Quite likely far sooner than you anticipate too. Have had the same thought myself. One good look at how the boy king is currently trampling our Constitution and any sane person should be having the same thoughts.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

I never have but I know the day will come when I may have to.

Quite likely far sooner than you anticipate too. Have had the same thought myself. One good look at how the boy king is currently trampling our Constitution and any sane person should be having the same thoughts.

I'm a Democrat, and right now, I feel like revolting against this government to overturn every single infringement on the 2nd Amendment. A very good Democrat had to withdraw her nomination from Jesse Jackson's Rep seat, because she had an A rating from the NRA.

 

[koshergrl]

I want some facts and truthiness. Has ANY private citizen (not a cop, solider, militia, security guard)....EVER needed more than 20 shots for any single incident of self-defense? I tried researching it, and I cant fine a single incident. Ever. I found one website with a lot of good stats from the NRA's own sources: The Thinking Gunfighter: Self Defense Findings

How many self defense situations required a "reload"? : About 1/2 of 1% it says, so, 0.5%.

How many shots are fired by the defender? : In most cases, about 2. Yes, TWO.

The average number of shots fired by the defender? 2. The median? 2.

It says the majority of cases where more than 2 were fired were the defender simply shooting the gun until empty, out of reaction, not necessity.

Out 482 shooting incidents studied (By the NRA), only 3 required a reload. 1 of the 3 was to kill a Lion (like the cat) who escaped, and a large cal revolver was used, needing 13 shots to kill the animal.

The largest number of "attackers" reported, across the country, was 7...where 7 men tried to do a home invasion. The home owner fought them off, killed 2, wounded 1................with a SHOTGUN.

Im trying to find an example. And I cant. I cant find one single example of a private citizen needing a 30 round magazine to fight off intruders or attackers. Not one. Not one single incident. In fact, every single incident seems that a 15 round magazine would be PLENTY to get the job done....yep, even if the attacker is an African Lion.

Im a gun rights supporter, but I also try to see both sides of all issues. Well....Im having trouble justifying the need for 30, 45, 50, or 100 round magazines in the hands of private citizens. Should they be banned? I dont think so. It wouldnt change anything except add more work for the understaffed PD's to enforce yet another law. But, is there a justified NEED for them? Absolutely not.

We dont' have the right to bear arms for self protection against single intruders. We have the right to bear arms so we don't need to fear OPPRESSION from a better armed government.

 

[MisterBeale]

Well, guess I got my answer. Never, not once, in recent history has a private citizen needed over 20 rounds in a self defense situation.

You're wrong actually. But the truth is decidedly inconvenient and messy, so it is ignored.

What Really Happened at Waco
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jim-moore/what-really-happened-at-w_b_42326.html

Fourteen years ago today, federal agents descended on a clapboard structure outside of Waco to take into custody a man who called himself David Koresh. I was present throughout every day of the subsequent ordeal. And I still don't think the truth of what transpired has ever been told. What follows here is what I know to be fact, much of it observed first hand. - JM

. . . .

The BATF officers went ahead with their plan of attack even though they had been told by their own undercover agent, Robert Rodriguez, that the Davidians were ready and itching for a fight. David Koresh had been tipped by David Jones, the mailman who had met Peeler on the country road. The Davidians must have been blind if they did not pick up on many other developments in Waco that indicated this was to be an unusual Sunday morning. A parade of agents in their personal cars had stretched out over two miles up Interstate 35 as they drove up from their training grounds at Fort Hood. The team assembled at Bellmead Community Center where highway 84 and Loop 340 intersect. Even on a Sunday, there was passing auto traffic as the agents milled about the parking lot wearing their Kevlar suits and BATF insignia. The raid team on the cattle trailers also passed the Mag Bag where three Davidians had been hanging out and working on cars. In the fifteen minutes it took the BATF raid team to drive between the Mag Bag and Mt. Carmel, one of them could have easily phoned Koresh inside of the compound to offer a warning.

Gunfire stopped and Mulloney and McLemore saw the wounded BATF agents lying in front of the compound. A cease-fire had been negotiated over the telephone and injured were being evacuated. Mulloney changed tapes in his camera and slipped the first one down the front of his pants because he was worried that police or BATF officials might try to confiscate his recording. He walked over to his KWTX-TV news truck, which was one of only two vehicles capable of carrying the wounded. Three seriously injured agents were loaded into the Bronco, holding their open wounds as McLemore drove them back to meet the Lifeflight helicopter for transport to a hospital. BATF officers thanked Mulloney and McLemore and credited them with saving the lives of the agents. The two journalists had also assisted with communications. The BATF had asked them to call for medical help because radios being used by agents, absurdly, were not programmed to communicate with the command and control center.

If private citizens hadn't had the right to a free press, and the right to bear arms, it is likely this whole fiasco would have went down much differently. The truth to this story is still being unveiled to us. Who knows if we will ever know what really happened. Lies are all we here about in the official version of events.

Once thing is for sure, the government should never be given a monopoly or asymmetric advantage of violence and power. They can't do anything right, and you are in favor of letting them be in control of all the most powerful guns? Nice.

 

[bucs90]

I remember that.

I am very glad he was acquitted.

As some would say, I would rather face a jury of 12 than be carried by 6.

It's a travesty that he was even arrested to begin with. He only shot 4 bullets into the grass.

You and I probably do NOT agree on most issues (for instance I'm in favor of national healthcare, I see it as a Ninth Amendment Right).

However, I'm glad to say that you and agree on what is most important, The 2nd Amendment, the only barrier between you and tyranny.[/I]

EDIT:

Also where is the OP since I provided this example?

It like posting about the The Battle of Athens, Tennessee, 1946, when the people overthrew the State government. Suddenly all the gun-control kids go home, knowing they've lost the argument completely.

It says he had an AK, but, only fired 4 shots. I asked when has a private citizen fired 20 or more rounds in a pure self defense situation.

Someone said the Civil War and Revolutionary War. Well, thats an example, but they are wars. If you count wars as "self defense", then sure, BUT, in those two wars NO ONE had a 20+ round magazine. I know, I said when has anyone fired 20 shots. In context, meaning used a 20 round magazine. But fair enough, I did say 20 shots. The 1946 Tennessee situation...that is the same deal. It was a mini-war, like a Revolutionary in their little town, and while they surely fired more than 20 shots, they too didnt have 20 round mags.


Im not anti-gun, or pro-gun control. Im just opening a discussion on the topic. That statistically, the NEED for a 30 round magazine for self defense is virtually non-existent. Stats show it is extremely rare for more than 2-3 bad guys to be involved, and that study said appx 80% of the time the bad guys run at first shot. Cops use bigger mags, because they chase bad guys and tend to get into bunkered-down shootouts, whereas the private citizen encounter will last a few seconds and be over.

I really was kinda hoping to be proven wrong, that people would give me multiple examples of a private citizen in a self defense situation fires 20 plus rounds from the same gun/magazine, thus showing a NEED for those high cap magazines.

 

[Bigfoot]

The tragic thing about the terrible incident in Waco was that it could have easily been avoided. Koresh was seen in town on a regular basis and could have simply been picked up without a fight and the Feds. knew that. This was an intended show of force.