Health Care Is A Right Not a Privilege!

[Gadawg73]

OK so since everyone is opposed to free government paid for health care when do we end Medicare and the all you can eat DOPE buffet?

 

[Andylusion]

OK so since everyone is opposed to free government paid for health care when do we end Medicare and the all you can eat DOPE buffet?

I would phase it out. I would say everyone 60 and over, are the last. Everyone 59 and younger, must purchase private health insurance, and just let the program die on the vine.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

OK so since everyone is opposed to free government paid for health care when do we end Medicare and the all you can eat DOPE buffet?

its not free its stolen from other people. The more people habituated to living off stolen entitlements the weaker our nation and citizens become. Our nation was founded and grew great due to people who were proud and strong enough to support themselves.

Do you understand?

 

[Political Junky]

yes but in general he's right. Europe has worse care because:

1) they are poorer and can afford less. France has the income of Arkansas, for example. THey buy less and they buy older drugs and treatments which are cheaper and less effective.

2) being more socialist they invent far less. USA hold 80% of all recent health care patents for example

3) in Europe most of those who can afford to buy care elect to do so because competitive free market care is naturally superior to monopolistic inefficient socialist care.

No links from you either.
The French have access the most advanced drugs, but the manufacturers charge them less than they charge Americans. That should really piss you off.
You should really do some traveling. Europe has changed a lot since the days immediately following WW2.

I have been to Europe, and specifically France. It's not the same, nor superior. French hospitals are ridiculous compared to US hospitals.

You were hospitalized in France?

 

[Listening]

OK so since everyone is opposed to free government paid for health care when do we end Medicare and the all you can eat DOPE buffet?

I would phase it out. I would say everyone 60 and over, are the last. Everyone 59 and younger, must purchase private health insurance, and just let the program die on the vine.

It should take longer than that. We've all been paying for a while with a promise it would be there.

I don't mind paying more and getting less (for what I pay for) as long as it goes in the right direction.

Otherwise, people who have paid a long time will be screwed.

 

[anotherlife]

If you also made it a little more painful for granny to go visit her doctor because she's lonely (which happens an awful lot) and had an honest discussion about end of life care (30% of all care a person consumes is in the last year of life)....you might find things to be less costly.

Yes, if the buyer of healthcare services was put back into the picture, prices would normalize. Too bad, the semi-communist mass base of the ruling democrat party will never allow that to happen, neither will the insurance cartell backed republican congressional minority. HEHEHE

My American friends, you are just beginning the dance, how well you all have been punked out of your own cash and with you all cheering along to get screwed some more. WHEHEHEHEHE

Actually, there is a growing number of Hospitals and care providers, now openly posting prices. There is even a growing number of clinics that refuse insurance, and require direct payment for care.

That would be a road back to civilization. Somehow I feel that these hospitals/providers are sitting ducks for buyouts, because after not boosing their profit margins with deferring income from insurer limit/deductible to customer, they will not be able to maintain their revenues at competitive levels.

No links from you either.
The French have access the most advanced drugs, but the manufacturers charge them less than they charge Americans. That should really piss you off.
You should really do some traveling. Europe has changed a lot since the days immediately following WW2.

I have been to Europe, and specifically France. It's not the same, nor superior. French hospitals are ridiculous compared to US hospitals.

yes France has the per capita income of Arkansas, about our poorest state so of course many things there will be substandard by American standards.

Not up to US standards? Do you mean like not enough HFC and not enough GM chemicals in French wine and cheese?

 

[Andylusion]

No links from you either.
The French have access the most advanced drugs, but the manufacturers charge them less than they charge Americans. That should really piss you off.
You should really do some traveling. Europe has changed a lot since the days immediately following WW2.

I have been to Europe, and specifically France. It's not the same, nor superior. French hospitals are ridiculous compared to US hospitals.

You were hospitalized in France?

I personally was not, but a member of our group was, and we've had subsequent people there who were Hospitalized. One in fact, was directly told by the people at the hospital, that he had to return to the US because he would get better care back here.

Only one of the three, was told this, I'll grant you that much. But I've been there, I've seen the difference first hand... it's not the same.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I have been to Europe, and specifically France. It's not the same, nor superior. French hospitals are ridiculous compared to US hospitals.

You were hospitalized in France?

I personally was not, but a member of our group was, and we've had subsequent people there who were Hospitalized. One in fact, was directly told by the people at the hospital, that he had to return to the US because he would get better care back here.

Only one of the three, was told this, I'll grant you that much. But I've been there, I've seen the difference first hand... it's not the same.

not so surprising since France is a poor county and socialist too!

 

[Political Junky]

You were hospitalized in France?

I personally was not, but a member of our group was, and we've had subsequent people there who were Hospitalized. One in fact, was directly told by the people at the hospital, that he had to return to the US because he would get better care back here.

Only one of the three, was told this, I'll grant you that much. But I've been there, I've seen the difference first hand... it's not the same.

not so surprising since France is a poor county and socialist too!

I'm pretty sure you couldn't afford to live in Paris in the style you do in the US. What is it with the Right thinking that Europeans are all poor?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I personally was not, but a member of our group was, and we've had subsequent people there who were Hospitalized. One in fact, was directly told by the people at the hospital, that he had to return to the US because he would get better care back here.

Only one of the three, was told this, I'll grant you that much. But I've been there, I've seen the difference first hand... it's not the same.

not so surprising since France is a poor county and socialist too!

I'm pretty sure you couldn't afford to live in Paris in the style you do in the US. What is it with the Right thinking that Europeans are all poor?

its a simple fact. France has the per capita income of Arkansas about our poorest state. Productive French people move to London. THe idiot socialist president said he did not like the rich!

 

[Andylusion]

Yes, if the buyer of healthcare services was put back into the picture, prices would normalize. Too bad, the semi-communist mass base of the ruling democrat party will never allow that to happen, neither will the insurance cartell backed republican congressional minority. HEHEHE

My American friends, you are just beginning the dance, how well you all have been punked out of your own cash and with you all cheering along to get screwed some more. WHEHEHEHEHE

Actually, there is a growing number of Hospitals and care providers, now openly posting prices. There is even a growing number of clinics that refuse insurance, and require direct payment for care.

That would be a road back to civilization. Somehow I feel that these hospitals/providers are sitting ducks for buyouts, because after not boosing their profit margins with deferring income from insurer limit/deductible to customer, they will not be able to maintain their revenues at competitive levels.

First off, a buyout only happens when the owner can't make a profit at all.

It's very rare, in fact nearly unheard of, that a perfectly profitable growing business, is bought out because the owner was just making too much money and got bored.

The main reason an owner considers selling the business, is because he is looking at the numbers, and he'll end up bankrupt if he doesn't sell.

As long as the owner is making enough of a profit to fund the reinvestment into the business, and fund his own salary, he'll keep the business. Hospitals can easily make enough profit without padding the books with fees.

The only exception to that, would be hospitals run by Unions. The Cooks unions, and the cleaner Unions are way over paid. I'm sorry to those of you who make a great living doing that work, but pouring canned soup into a vat, and turning the heat on, and stirring every 10 minutes, is not a $20/hour job.

Those Hospitals locked into long term, high pay, Union contracts are going to start having problems if we allow a free-market, because someone is going to open a hospital without Union contracts, and their daily costs to room patients, is going to be a fraction of what the Union hospital cost, and your customers are going to dwindle.

Additionally, and most importantly, adopting a free-market will automatically result in investment into cost-reduction. The moment you have an open free-market capitalist system involved, having a market price, will encourage hospitals into driving investment to reduce costs.

Under the current system, in many ways, a hospital is more likely to be penalized for cutting costs. If they find a way to reduce the cost of a CAT scan, this doesn't bring them a single new customer, because the customers pay a deductible, and insurance covers the rest anyway. Or worse, Medicare and Medicaid cover it, and the customer never pays anything.

But if government finds out that the hospital reduced cost, they might reduce medicare and medicaid payments. So little up side, possible down side.

 

[Political Junky]

not so surprising since France is a poor county and socialist too!

I'm pretty sure you couldn't afford to live in Paris in the style you do in the US. What is it with the Right thinking that Europeans are all poor?

its a simple fact. France has the per capita income of Arkansas about our poorest state. Productive French people move to London. THe idiot socialist president said he did not like the rich!

You avoided my point, that you can't afford to live in Paris in the style that you do in the US.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I'm pretty sure you couldn't afford to live in Paris in the style you do in the US. What is it with the Right thinking that Europeans are all poor?

its a simple fact. France has the per capita income of Arkansas about our poorest state. Productive French people move to London. THe idiot socialist president said he did not like the rich!

You avoided my point, that you can't afford to live in Paris in the style that you do in the US.

thats because your point is 100% idiotic. Some parts of Paris have a world class style that many from all over the world love so prices can be very very steep thanks to supply and demand. Take the subway 10 minutes out of town and you have miles and miles of muslim ghettos. On average a Frenchman will have the income of someone from Arkansas.
10 years ago you could get a very nice room in Chaminox for $30, for example.

 

[Toro]

Healthcare is neither a right nor a privilege.

It's a product that is consumed.

How the distribution of the product is organized is a political question.

 

[Doubletap]

RE: Rights...
If some men are entitled by right to the products of the work of others, it means that those others are deprived of rights and condemned to slave labor.

A “right” is a moral principle defining and sanctioning a man’s freedom of action in a social context. There is only one fundamental right (all the others are its consequences or corollaries): a man’s right to his own life. Life is a process of self-sustaining and self-generated action; the right to life means the right to engage in self-sustaining and self-generated action—which means: the freedom to take all the actions required by the nature of a rational being for the support, the furtherance, the fulfillment and the enjoyment of his own life. (Such is the meaning of the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.)

The concept of a “right” pertains only to action (not services or products)—specifically, to freedom of action. It means freedom from physical compulsion, coercion or interference by other men.
Thus, for every individual, a right is the moral sanction of a positive—of his freedom to act on his own judgment, for his own goals, by his own voluntary, uncoerced choice. As to his neighbors, his rights impose no obligations on them except of a negative kind: to abstain from violating his rights.

The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.

Bear in mind that the right to property is a right to action, like all the others: it is not the right to an object, but to the action and the consequences of producing or earning that object. It is not a guarantee that a man will earn any property, but only a guarantee that he will own it if he earns it. It is the right to gain, to keep, to use and to dispose of material values.

There is no such thing as “a right to a job”—there is only the right of free trade, that is: a man’s right to take a job if another man chooses to hire him. There is no “right to a home,” only the right of free trade: the right to build a home or to buy it. There are no “rights to a ‘fair’ wage or a ‘fair’ price” if no one chooses to pay it, to hire a man or to buy his product. There are no “rights of consumers” to milk, shoes, movies or champagne if no producers choose to manufacture such items (there is only the right to manufacture them oneself). There are no “rights” of special groups, there are no “rights of farmers, of workers, of businessmen, of employees, of employers, of the old, of the young, of the unborn.” There are only the Rights of Man—rights possessed by every individual man and by all men as individuals" ---Ayn Rand

 

[Political Junky]

its a simple fact. France has the per capita income of Arkansas about our poorest state. Productive French people move to London. THe idiot socialist president said he did not like the rich!

You avoided my point, that you can't afford to live in Paris in the style that you do in the US.

thats because your point is 100% idiotic. Some parts of Paris have a world class style that many from all over the world love so prices can be very very steep thanks to supply and demand. Take the subway 10 minutes out of town and you have miles and miles of muslim ghettos. On average a Frenchman will have the income of someone from Arkansas.
10 years ago you could get a very nice room in Chaminox for $30, for example.

No, not idiotic, you still can't live in Paris in the style you enjoy in the US.
I assume you referred to Chamonix.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

you still can't live in Paris in the style you enjoy in the US.

and if this was true what would it demonstrate???? the same is true of Caracas but what does it mean? Nothing actually. Sorry to rock your world!

 

[Cecilie1200]

I personally was not, but a member of our group was, and we've had subsequent people there who were Hospitalized. One in fact, was directly told by the people at the hospital, that he had to return to the US because he would get better care back here.

Only one of the three, was told this, I'll grant you that much. But I've been there, I've seen the difference first hand... it's not the same.

not so surprising since France is a poor county and socialist too!

I'm pretty sure you couldn't afford to live in Paris in the style you do in the US. What is it with the Right thinking that Europeans are all poor?

Virtually NO ONE in Paris lives in the style that we do in the US, which is rather the point. Why are we supposed to believe in the superiority of a nation which, despite being technically a first-tier country, has a lower standard of living than we take for granted at home?

We think Europeans are poor in large part BECAUSE it takes so much more money to live so much worse. That's not rich; that's fucking stupid.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

not so surprising since France is a poor county and socialist too!

I'm pretty sure you couldn't afford to live in Paris in the style you do in the US. What is it with the Right thinking that Europeans are all poor?

Virtually NO ONE in Paris lives in the style that we do in the US, which is rather the point. Why are we supposed to believe in the superiority of a nation which, despite being technically a first-tier country, has a lower standard of living than we take for granted at home?

We think Europeans are poor in large part BECAUSE it takes so much more money to live so much worse. That's not rich; that's fucking stupid.

Yes France has the per capita income of Arkansas about our poorest state.

 

[Political Junky]

I'm pretty sure you couldn't afford to live in Paris in the style you do in the US. What is it with the Right thinking that Europeans are all poor?

Virtually NO ONE in Paris lives in the style that we do in the US, which is rather the point. Why are we supposed to believe in the superiority of a nation which, despite being technically a first-tier country, has a lower standard of living than we take for granted at home?

We think Europeans are poor in large part BECAUSE it takes so much more money to live so much worse. That's not rich; that's fucking stupid.

Yes France has the per capita income of Arkansas about our poorest state.

How many times did you repeat that in this thread alone?