Historical Injustices and Precedents for Reparations

[Hawk1981]

Historically, reparations are a relatively recent phenomenon. One type is the reparations paid from one state to another, extracted by the victors, as spoils, as a condition for peace. France paid Germany reparations after the Franco-Prussian War of 1872. Germany paid France reparations after World War I and the Soviet zone of Germany paid reparations to the Soviet Union after the Second World War, and Iraq paid reparations for the destruction that it caused after the Gulf War.

Another type of reparations seeks to accomplish a political or moral purpose, and they are usually paid to individuals or groups. In this sense, the most famous reparations are the Holocaust reparations paid by West Germany after the Second World War. Although the United States and other countries did pressure Germany to pay reparations to Holocaust victims, and although the West Germany reparations can be traced to earlier reparations programs imposed from 1947 to 1949 by the occupying powers, the Holocaust case differs from the standard cases of coerced wartime reparations. The Holocaust reparations did not go to the victorious powers, and the program emerged more or less autonomously from the German political system, at a time (the 1950s and 1960s) when Germany was no longer under imminent threat of further physical or economic destruction.

Other notable reparations programs were established by the Czech Republic to compensate owners who had property confiscated by the Communist regime between 1948 and 1990; and by Germany to owners of confiscated property and political imprisonment during the Communist era in the Eastern Zone. Chile set up a pension system for the victims and families of the Pinochet regime; and Canada has set aside considerable funds for the forced assimilation of aboriginal children.

The history of reparations for past injustices have a number of important elements in the process of effectively compensating the victims and their descendants. There is the importance of financial compensation as the tangible token of society's recognition and commitment. There must be some measure of punishment for the perpetrators crimes against the victims. There must be strong financial and political backing for the process to move forward. Finally, there is the element of lasting moral responsibility driving the process of commemorating and rectifying past wrongs.

 

[Hawk1981]

In the United States, the first reparations plan was considered before the Civil War ended when General Sherman issued special orders allocating 40 acres and a mule to freed slaves in the coastal areas of South Carolina and Georgia abandoned by or confiscated from slave owners as a way to "assure the harmony of action in the area of operations." Although about 400,000 acres were allocated, the orders were rescinded by President Andrew Johnson. Additional efforts to pass bills redistributing confiscated land to freed slaves were defeated in Congress during the Reconstruction Era.

The next push for reparations for slavery occurred in the 1890s. Several black organizations lobbied Congress to provide pensions for former slaves and their children. One bill introduced into the U.S. Senate in 1894 would have granted direct payments of up to $500 to all ex-slaves plus monthly pensions ranging from $4 to $15. The proposals for pensions faded away at the onset of the First World War.

The first US reparations program passed by Congress was in 1946 to redress a wide range of claims pressed by Native American tribes, including violations of treaties for which a judicial remedy was denied, and the loss of lands under treaties signed under duress. Compensation has been paid to numerous Native American groups in the decades since.

Other notable reparations programs by the United States have included the payments to Japanese-American internees confined during the Second World War; compensation to people exposed to radiation from nuclear tests and mining; and victims of syphilis experiments who were denied treatment. An unusual case of reparations was paid by the state of Florida to the survivors and descendants of residents of the black town of Rosewood, Florida, destroyed following a race riot in 1923.

Since the 1960s there has been a resurgence in the requests for reparations for American slavery, for descendants of native Hawaiian groups who lost land following the annexation by the US, and for descendants of Mexican land owners whose Spanish and Mexican land titles were not recognized under the terms of the peace treaty of 1848. In the United States, the resurgence of requests has been, in part, due to the successful precedents set by numerous claims made in the last 75 years to both federal and state governments.

 

[Hawk1981]

Historically in the United States, reparations programs were often cases in which sovereign immunity or some other bar to recovery has thrown the issue out of the courts and into legislatures. An example is the statute compensating Japanese-American internees, which was enacted only after, and in part because, the courts had denied compensation suits against the government.

Demands for reparations more typically appeal from courts to the moral norms held in society at large.

Reparations programs stand as an extraordinary remedy. A common view of "reparations justice" permits reparations where compensation is paid to actual victims of wrongdoing and "reparations justice" permits the payment to be extracted in part from those who did not themselves wrong anyone, through taxes or other mechanisms.

 

[Hawk1981]

Negotiations between West Germany and the State of Israel over reparations began in early 1952. The discussions between the two delegations were not easy. It had been only seven years since the liberation of the concentration camps and the end of Second World War. Most of the population in West Germany opposed the reparations.

The German public mainly was against the large sum that Chancellor Konrad Adenauer was prepared to accept as a starting point of the negotiations, some four billion German marks. However, Adenauer understood that there was no alternative to reaching a compromise with the Israeli side, in order to restore West Germany's sovereignty and end the occupation.

In contrast, every claim against the East German government remained unanswered. The Communist regime, while forced to pay substantial reparations to the Soviet Union, never recognized the responsibility of the entire German people for the Holocaust and the atrocities committed during the National Socialist regime.

 

[toobfreak]

Where are the reparations for the American Indian, who was wronged far more than the black man?

 

[jwoodie]

There must be some measure of punishment for the perpetrators crimes against the victims.

Just who are the "perpetrators" and who are the "victims?" In the examples you cited, both parties were contemporary actors. And the "reparations" were final payments, not unending installments.

 

[jwoodie]

Where are the reparations for the American Indian, who was wronged far more than the black man?

Exclusive casino rights.

 

[MaryL]

I created a thread with a similar name months back about "reparations".Mine was specifically addressing the"reparations" push by American liberals for slavery. Reparations for slavery (an event 150 years back) sounded absurd, paying reparations for something that nobody living had any involvement in. Your thoughts?

 

[whitehall]

I wonder if reparations and compensation would even be recognized by "emerging UN nations" and their UN enablers for the ongoing genocide in Africa. Maybe they want the U.S. to pay for it.

 

[MaryL]

I am not a kid anymore. I don't want reparations for the holocaust, but recognition for the millions of white male nationalist that fought REAL fascism. Russians, Brititans, Austalians, Canadians free french and yes, Americans.

 

[Hawk1981]

I created a thread with a similar name months back about "reparations".Mine was specifically addressing the"reparations" push by American liberals for slavery. Reparations for slavery (an event 150 years back) sounded absurd, paying reparations for something that nobody living had any involvement in. Your thoughts?

From the historical viewpoint, the US missed its best chance to do the most meaningful reparations for ex-slaves in the 1890s, when there were many former slaves still living and it would not have been especially difficult to identify descendants.

Reparations theory does include the possibility of compensation in an era where there are only people several generations removed from the original offense, but even if the political will existed, the possibility of comprehensively identifying living descendants of slaves would be very difficult.

Compensation could be made indirectly in the form of global benefits (e.g. health and/or education) for entire communities or groups of people that could be defined in some way to include the descendants of slaves, and likely the descendants of some slave-holders too.

There's some precedent for that. When West Germany paid reparations to Israel in the 1950s, the payments were made to the country rather than to individuals since so many victims had perished without any living relatives left to compensate. Much of the reparations was made in goods rather than money. The Germans contributed to the construction of Israel's infrastructure including a sizable percentage of the country's rail system with rolling stock.

 

[TroglocratsRdumb]

2 huge problems with reparations
1 punishing people for something that they are not responsible for
2 rewarding people who are not harmed

 

[flacaltenn]

Historically, reparations are a relatively recent phenomenon. One type is the reparations paid from one state to another, extracted by the victors, as spoils, as a condition for peace. France paid Germany reparations after the Franco-Prussian War of 1872. Germany paid France reparations after World War I and the Soviet zone of Germany paid reparations to the Soviet Union after the Second World War, and Iraq paid reparations for the destruction that it caused after the Gulf War.

View attachment 335981

Another type of reparations seeks to accomplish a political or moral purpose, and they are usually paid to individuals or groups. In this sense, the most famous reparations are the Holocaust reparations paid by West Germany after the Second World War. Although the United States and other countries did pressure Germany to pay reparations to Holocaust victims, and although the West Germany reparations can be traced to earlier reparations programs imposed from 1947 to 1949 by the occupying powers, the Holocaust case differs from the standard cases of coerced wartime reparations. The Holocaust reparations did not go to the victorious powers, and the program emerged more or less autonomously from the German political system, at a time (the 1950s and 1960s) when Germany was no longer under imminent threat of further physical or economic destruction.

Other notable reparations programs were established by the Czech Republic to compensate owners who had property confiscated by the Communist regime between 1948 and 1990; and by Germany to owners of confiscated property and political imprisonment during the Communist era in the Eastern Zone. Chile set up a pension system for the victims and families of the Pinochet regime; and Canada has set aside considerable funds for the forced assimilation of aboriginal children.

The history of reparations for past injustices have a number of important elements in the process of effectively compensating the victims and their descendants. There is the importance of financial compensation as the tangible token of society's recognition and commitment. There must be some measure of punishment for the perpetrators crimes against the victims. There must be strong financial and political backing for the process to move forward. Finally, there is the element of lasting moral responsibility driving the process of commemorating and rectifying past wrongs.

The main "perpetrator" of racist institutions in America were the duly elected politicians who created mandated segregation, legal inequality, built entirely segregated cities, segregated the military, etc and were very slow to resolve any of this..

To make the govt ACCOUNTABLE for their screw-ups is a FOOLS errand. Especially when screw-ups that cost LIVES AND FORTUNES made by Fed, state, local govts even from the ONGOING Covid crisis -- will never see "reparations"...

We have been tuned to ACCEPT govt incompetence and their limits of accountability by the old saw of "resolve it at the ballot box"... Which IS --- evidently, the ONLY recourse that people THINK they have left.

 

[Dick Foster]

Historically, reparations are a relatively recent phenomenon. One type is the reparations paid from one state to another, extracted by the victors, as spoils, as a condition for peace. France paid Germany reparations after the Franco-Prussian War of 1872. Germany paid France reparations after World War I and the Soviet zone of Germany paid reparations to the Soviet Union after the Second World War, and Iraq paid reparations for the destruction that it caused after the Gulf War.

View attachment 335981

Another type of reparations seeks to accomplish a political or moral purpose, and they are usually paid to individuals or groups. In this sense, the most famous reparations are the Holocaust reparations paid by West Germany after the Second World War. Although the United States and other countries did pressure Germany to pay reparations to Holocaust victims, and although the West Germany reparations can be traced to earlier reparations programs imposed from 1947 to 1949 by the occupying powers, the Holocaust case differs from the standard cases of coerced wartime reparations. The Holocaust reparations did not go to the victorious powers, and the program emerged more or less autonomously from the German political system, at a time (the 1950s and 1960s) when Germany was no longer under imminent threat of further physical or economic destruction.

Other notable reparations programs were established by the Czech Republic to compensate owners who had property confiscated by the Communist regime between 1948 and 1990; and by Germany to owners of confiscated property and political imprisonment during the Communist era in the Eastern Zone. Chile set up a pension system for the victims and families of the Pinochet regime; and Canada has set aside considerable funds for the forced assimilation of aboriginal children.

The history of reparations for past injustices have a number of important elements in the process of effectively compensating the victims and their descendants. There is the importance of financial compensation as the tangible token of society's recognition and commitment. There must be some measure of punishment for the perpetrators crimes against the victims. There must be strong financial and political backing for the process to move forward. Finally, there is the element of lasting moral responsibility driving the process of commemorating and rectifying past wrongs.

I really liked the reparations Germany paid France for WWI, it came to be called WWII.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

The race question in the U.S. is complex, profound and yet in some ways “artificial.” It’s mixed with so many other issues and misconceptions that “reparations for slavery” can seem both a moral imperative and a reactionary political provocation raised to divide.

It is indeed a shame that “40 Acres and a Mule” were never provided to freed slaves after the Civil War. I recall how Stephen Austin’s pioneer immigrant families in East Texas in 1830 were granted (by Mexico no less) 640 acres to every husband, 320 to every wife, 160 for every child, and 80 acres for every slave ... given to the masters of course.

We are all, as it were, still paying interest on that old debt. In my experience most African Americans today just demand a fair deal and real understanding and respect for all they went through. Our society, like most, is not very forgiving. Not very fair. Historical injustices can rarely be “repaid” — either in full or even in part. After all in the wider world they are usually repaid with more injustice, war, violence. Others have spoken about WWI and WWII and the forced “war guilt” reparations that led nowhere but to more war.

If we become a better, more egalitarian, more democratic society — a big “if” I admit — “reparations for slavery” will likely never become a serious issue in itself. Too much time has already passed. But nobody should forget the central importance slavery once played in our nation’s history.

Today’s powerful U.S. identities like “black” and “white” may not fade away anytime soon. But time passing will make the idea of “reparations for slavery” fade. Eventually it will no longer be raised by a minority of African Americans — even when they are bitter or angry. Nor will it be raised mockingly by white racists seeking to provoke division. Even racism will fade away. We are just not there yet ...

 

[whitehall]

How is it that the lilly white progressive elitists assume that Black Americans haven't gotten a fair deal and respect after a hundred and sixty years and the music industry and hollywood not to mention the half Black former president and the a Supreme Court Justice? Isn't it time to stop viewing a segment of society that has achieved so much as victims simply on the basis of their skin color and/or DNA?

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

How is it that the lilly white progressive elitists assume that Black Americans haven't gotten a fair deal and respect after a hundred and sixty years and the music industry and hollywood not to mention the half Black former president and the a Supreme Court Justice? Isn't it time to stop viewing a segment of society that has achieved so much as victims simply on the basis of their skin color and/or DNA?

Whoa! A lot of assumptions there! This is a discussion about the history of reparations. My comment on black/white relations in the U.S. was in respect to the “reparations for slavery” issue. The things you are imputing to “lilly white progressive elitists” have nothing to do with me or my comment or the subject of the OP. I no doubt disagree with your larger views on racism in American society, but this is not the place to go into all that...

 

[whitehall]

How is it that the lilly white progressive elitists assume that Black Americans haven't gotten a fair deal and respect after a hundred and sixty years and the music industry and hollywood not to mention the half Black former president and the a Supreme Court Justice? Isn't it time to stop viewing a segment of society that has achieved so much as victims simply on the basis of their skin color and/or DNA?

Whoa! A lot of assumptions there! This is a discussion about the history of reparations. My comment on black/white relations in the U.S. was in respect to the “reparations for slavery” issue. The things you are imputing to “lilly white progressive elitists” have nothing to do with me or my comment or the subject of the OP. I no doubt disagree with your larger views on racism in American society, but this is not the place to go into all that...

How to determine slavery victims for reparation awards after 150 years when some alleged victims are millionaires? The notion is ludicrous but probably relevant to left wing political activists.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

This whole issue of “individual reparations for slavery” is raised, often in this same bedraggled way, by aggrieved and racist whites and right wing media ... about a hundred times more frequently than by left wing political activists. This is certainly my experience here on the internet, on USMB, and in talking with “left wing activists,” of whom I know quite a few.

Again, can you please stay on topic and discuss some of the historical issues raised by the OP?

 

[Invisibleflash]

In the United States, the first reparations plan was considered before the Civil War ended when General Sherman issued special orders allocating 40 acres and a mule to freed slaves in the coastal areas of South Carolina and Georgia abandoned by or confiscated from slave owners as a way to "assure the harmony of action in the area of operations." Although about 400,000 acres were allocated, the orders were rescinded by President Andrew Johnson. Additional efforts to pass bills redistributing confiscated land to freed slaves were defeated in Congress during the Reconstruction Era.

The next push for reparations for slavery occurred in the 1890s. Several black organizations lobbied Congress to provide pensions for former slaves and their children. One bill introduced into the U.S. Senate in 1894 would have granted direct payments of up to $500 to all ex-slaves plus monthly pensions ranging from $4 to $15. The proposals for pensions faded away at the onset of the First World War.

The first US reparations program passed by Congress was in 1946 to redress a wide range of claims pressed by Native American tribes, including violations of treaties for which a judicial remedy was denied, and the loss of lands under treaties signed under duress. Compensation has been paid to numerous Native American groups in the decades since.

Other notable reparations programs by the United States have included the payments to Japanese-American internees confined during the Second World War; compensation to people exposed to radiation from nuclear tests and mining; and victims of syphilis experiments who were denied treatment. An unusual case of reparations was paid by the state of Florida to the survivors and descendants of residents of the black town of Rosewood, Florida, destroyed following a race riot in 1923.

Since the 1960s there has been a resurgence in the requests for reparations for American slavery, for descendants of native Hawaiian groups who lost land following the annexation by the US, and for descendants of Mexican land owners whose Spanish and Mexican land titles were not recognized under the terms of the peace treaty of 1848. In the United States, the resurgence of requests has been, in part, due to the successful precedents set by numerous claims made in the last 75 years to both federal and state governments.

You have obviously thought a lot about reparations. Thanks for all the history.

What does the group think is a fair amount of money to be given to each black for reparations of slavery of their ancestors?