How Can Anyone Defend This...

[Kalam]

It’s a good thing we've got Kalam on the board to define for us who is and is not a muslim. I guess they are only real muslims if they agree with him and hate Jews. He never answered the question of muslim fighting for the U.S. in the Iraq and Afghanistan. I guess they are not real muslims either, they are traitors in his warped mind

You sure do want me to hate Jews. I don't, though; sorry.

Any Muslim who fights for a cause other than God's is condemned to Hell. In the case of so-called Muslims who turn against their own community, we've been given a clear precedent:

Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? God hath upset them for their deeds. Would ye guide those whom God hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom God hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing: But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and take no friends or helpers from their ranks; Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty, or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If God had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and send you peace, then God Hath opened no way for you. - 4:88-90​

 

[Foxfyre]

I imagine they have rejected such a doctrine Kalam. I am going to guess--in fact I've heard testimony from one that concurs with my opinion--that all or most have discovered that the Jew is not their enemy, is not an abomination, and treats them with the utmost deference, courtesy, and consideration when such is reciprocated.

Are you under the impression that I hate Jews or consider them to be less than human? No, my position isn't merely a reversal of Zionist racism. I wouldn't see them herded into open air prisons, strangled with dehumanizing blockades, decimated with cluster munitions, or punished with any of the many injuries "Israel" has inflicted on the Muslims of Palestine over the past 60 years. I subscribe to the radical belief that no segment of the region's population should be forced to suffer through any of that sort of depravity. But I'm told that this is anti-Semitic since anything short of eternal Jewish supremacism will result in them being driven into the sea.

There are those who reject the blood lust doctrine of Jihad

Associating 'blood lust' with jihad makes it clear that the concept eludes you, but no matter.

and have chosen a more enlightened path. They still belong to Allah, but they now understand a better way.

Do they now?

I suppose it's appropriate that support for brutal collective punishment and the seizure of lebensraum are cornerstones of "enlightenment" according to the Zionist understanding. 'Audhu billah min dhalik.

And some would take the view that the Jews have done only what was necessary to keep the blood lusting jihadists from kidnapping, torturing, beheading or otherwise killing people, to keep them from firing rockets into residential neighborhoods hoping to hurt, maim, or kill ANYBODY, and to keep them from blowing themselves up on busses crowded with school children or in crowded markets.

At such time as the Palestinians, including their leadership, denounce and reject such policy and do what they reasonably can do to stop it from happening, and then the Israelis are not good neighbors to the Palestinians? Then I will have issues with the Israelis. Until then I cannot fault them for their policies.

Selective history is a really bad teacher for instructing national policies, and I think far too many pro-Palestinians have been provided only selective history that all the problem is the Jews and the Palestinians are innocent and maltreated victims.

And when you write about those Muslims who choose to live peacefully with the Israelis as full responsible Israeli citizens:

They deserve death and what follows. Any person complicit in the oppression of people he claims are his coreligionists is a wretched, miserable creature who lives and dies in a state of abject ignominy.

perhaps you can understand that you don't give Israel much incentive to trust that you would choose to live peacefully with them. Sound pretty much like blood lust to me.

 

[Jroc]

You sure do want me to hate Jews. I don't, though; sorry.

Humm.. You hate Zionists, you hate Israel, and you hate Jews. Whether you want to admit it or not is up to you. The Jews in Israel are in the way of your "Caliphate", you would see them all slaughtered to achieve this goal. The slaughter of those children means nothing, as they are part of that Zionist movement. You are no different then the animals that killed those babies. It’s pretty clear to me

Any Muslim who fights for a cause other than God's is condemned to Hell. In the case of so-called Muslims who turn against their own community, we've been given a clear precedent:

Really? Who is it that determines that? You can't have what you want because your caliphate is not possible in the modern age. it is a pipe dream, who determines what is the proper interpretation of islamic law?… Men… Whomever interprets islamic law are the rulers. They are men. what you want cannot exist...Only in your own mind.

 

[Kalam]

And some would take the view that the Jews have done only what was necessary to keep the blood lusting jihadists from kidnapping, torturing, beheading or otherwise killing people, to keep them from firing rockets into residential neighborhoods hoping to hurt, maim, or kill ANYBODY, and to keep them from blowing themselves up on busses crowded with school children or in crowded markets.

Apparently, the poor Zionists are only able to save themselves from certain destruction by doing every single thing you listed short of self-detonation.

At such time as the Palestinians, including their leadership, denounce and reject such policy and do what they reasonably can do to stop it from happening, and then the Israelis are not good neighbors to the Palestinians? Then I will have issues with the Israelis. Until then I cannot fault them for their policies.

Have you ever bothered to turn a critical eye toward those policies? You may find it beneficial to begin by taking a glance at the history and nature of the Gaza Strip blockade.

Selective history is a really bad teacher for instructing national policies, and I think far too many pro-Palestinians have been provided only selective history that all the problem is the Jews and the Palestinians are innocent and maltreated victims.

Studying the region's history independently and within a formal academic setting has exposed me to a fairly diverse body of analysis. I wouldn't involve myself in discussions like this if I spoke from a position of ignorance or flawed understanding -- If you feel that I'm guilty of doing this, I invite you to demonstrate that and I look forward to your criticism.

And when you write about those Muslims who choose to live peacefully with the Israelis as full responsible Israeli citizens:

When 'living peacefully' entails complicity in the oppression or destruction of one's own people, it ceases to be an option for anyone with a trace of honor.

perhaps you can understand that you don't give Israel much incentive to trust that you would choose to live peacefully with them.

I only desire peace with the people; the state is irredeemably oppressive by virtue of its very structure and will have to be destroyed.

Sound pretty much like blood lust to me.

A person who kills because he lusts for blood or because he's angry or for the sake of vengeance or fame or a country -- he becomes an inhabitant of the Fire. A life can only be extinguished for the sake of God.

 

[Kalam]

Humm.. You hate Zionists, you hate Israel, and you hate Jews. Whether you want to admit it or not is up to you. The Jews in Israel are in the way of your "Caliphate", you would see them all slaughtered to achieve this goal. The slaughter of those children means nothing, as they are part of that Zionist movement. You are no different then the animals that killed those babies. It’s pretty clear to me

It must be, as you've taken it upon yourself to tell me what I think in spite of what I've said to the contrary. Good day.

 

[HUGGY]

Ah...ya..."The Chosen People". What a crock Jroc. The self appointed special ones. HOW CONVENIENT! It must be a real drag when someone doesn't buy into your bullshit and sees you for what you really are. When your god is exposed as an impostor and melts away and all you have left is what you are doing here and now and have done then and there what are you really? What are you when the excuses run thin? Must be a bitch when you have to stand on the shaky truth.

Does it ever occur to you that if what you believe is not true that you have fucked up a large part of the world for NOTHING?

Does it ever occur to you that if you stopped thinking you are chosen and "special" and actually had to get along with the rest of the people on the planet on your merits and not some mythical bullshit that the world would be a better place?

Does it ever occur to you that personal responsibility and your true standing among men starts with YOU?

I don't really hate Jews. I have had many good Jewish friends. As a people you have imposed your supposed "special" status on the world long enough. It is high time you intellectually grow up and do your part to help make the world more livable for your neighbors as well as yourselves.

 

[High_Gravity]

It’s a good thing we've got Kalam on the board to define for us who is and is not a muslim. I guess they are only real muslims if they agree with him and hate Jews. He never answered the question of muslim fighting for the U.S. in the Iraq and Afghanistan. I guess they are not real muslims either, they are traitors in his warped mind

You sure do want me to hate Jews. I don't, though; sorry.

Any Muslim who fights for a cause other than God's is condemned to Hell. In the case of so-called Muslims who turn against their own community, we've been given a clear precedent:

Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? God hath upset them for their deeds. Would ye guide those whom God hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom God hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing: But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and take no friends or helpers from their ranks; Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty, or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If God had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and send you peace, then God Hath opened no way for you. - 4:88-90​

How do we know what gods cause is though? for all we know the guys fighting for Hamas and the Taliban are going to burn in hell.

 

[High_Gravity]

Also the Arab Muslims in the IDF are there voluntarily. Israeli law that does require some compulsory military service does not include Arab citizens in that law as they wisely understood that being in the military could require some Arabs to be in combat against friends, neighbors, family. It's tough enough for some to have to do violence to people who look like them. So any Arabs in the Israeli military or police forces are there because their loyalty to country and community overrides loyalty to a race or a religion or any other such criteria.

Indeed, I think these men deserve to be saluted, not pissed on.

They deserve death and what follows. Any person complicit in the oppression of people he claims are his coreligionists is a wretched, miserable creature who lives and dies in a state of abject ignominy.

These Muslims live in Israel and most have family there, it makes sense for them to want to defend it because they have as much stake in it as the Jews do. Black people enlisted and fought in every American war even when they were treated as second class citizens for the same reason.

 

[Jroc]

Ah...ya..."The Chosen People". What a crock Jroc. The self appointed special ones. HOW CONVENIENT! It must be a real drag when someone doesn't buy into your bullshit and sees you for what you really are. When your god is exposed as an impostor and melts away and all you have left is what you are doing here and now and have done then and there what are you really? What are you when the excuses run thin? Must be a bitch when you have to stand on the shaky truth.

Does it ever occur to you that if what you believe is not true that you have fucked up a large part of the world for NOTHING?

Does it ever occur to you that if you stopped thinking you are chosen and "special" and actually had to get along with the rest of the people on the planet on your merits and not some mythical bullshit that the world would be a better place?

Does it ever occur to you that personal responsibility and your true standing among men starts with YOU?

I don't really hate Jews. I have had many good Jewish friends. As a people you have imposed your supposed "special" status on the world long enough. It is high time you intellectually grow up and do your part to help make the world more livable for your neighbors as well as yourselves.

"The Chosen People" I don't believe I've ever used that phrase, and this thread is about the slaughter of a family in their beds. You attempt to defend that, you're position is clear. You have "many good Jewish friends." congradulations..Seems I hear a lot of that from racists..."I have many black friends" just let them stay in their own nieborhood right? As I said you are clear with you're hate, we know were you stand.

 

[Foxfyre]

And some would take the view that the Jews have done only what was necessary to keep the blood lusting jihadists from kidnapping, torturing, beheading or otherwise killing people, to keep them from firing rockets into residential neighborhoods hoping to hurt, maim, or kill ANYBODY, and to keep them from blowing themselves up on busses crowded with school children or in crowded markets.

Apparently, the poor Zionists are only able to save themselves from certain destruction by doing every single thing you listed short of self-detonation.

At such time as the Palestinians, including their leadership, denounce and reject such policy and do what they reasonably can do to stop it from happening, and then the Israelis are not good neighbors to the Palestinians? Then I will have issues with the Israelis. Until then I cannot fault them for their policies.

Have you ever bothered to turn a critical eye toward those policies? You may find it beneficial to begin by taking a glance at the history and nature of the Gaza Strip blockade.



Studying the region's history independently and within a formal academic setting has exposed me to a fairly diverse body of analysis. I wouldn't involve myself in discussions like this if I spoke from a position of ignorance or flawed understanding -- If you feel that I'm guilty of doing this, I invite you to demonstrate that and I look forward to your criticism.


When 'living peacefully' entails complicity in the oppression or destruction of one's own people, it ceases to be an option for anyone with a trace of honor.

perhaps you can understand that you don't give Israel much incentive to trust that you would choose to live peacefully with them.

I only desire peace with the people; the state is irredeemably oppressive by virtue of its very structure and will have to be destroyed.

Sound pretty much like blood lust to me.

A person who kills because he lusts for blood or because he's angry or for the sake of vengeance or fame or a country -- he becomes an inhabitant of the Fire. A life can only be extinguished for the sake of God.

Well thank you Kalam. You have in a short time here confirmed every belief that honorable people hold regarding Islamofacist terrorist thugs and those who condone what they do. How sad it must be to worship a deity who would require such behavior. How sad that you are not allowed to have love and concern for people who do not share your beliefs and doctrine. How sad that you are not allowed to accept love and compassion that is yours to have should you choose to receive it. You have my pity.

It does explain perhaps why Islam has produced so little for the general benefit of humankind for many generations now while Judaism and Christianity have produced so much.

Judaism and Christianity both know the great IAM, the God who directs their hearts and leads them in a path of justice and compassion even for those who believe differently. We of course differ a bit on how God is carrying out his plan, but that's okay. God is wise enough and big enough to work out those differences too.

I think the Allah who requires such cruelty and brutality does not know the God of the Jew and Christian. If he did, and could make peace, a great many of the problems of the world would immediately cease to exist.

 

[logical4u]

Yet, "you" did not say,

Are you having trouble reading?

and managed to call Jews, apes in the same post.

The murderer was actually Druze. Yes, he and the individuals who cleared his name are all apes. Any person who murders or child or commits some similarly heinous offense is an ape. Feel free to misrepresent my statements and pretend as if I extended that insult to all Jews, though; I'm past the point where that sort of petty libel bothers me.

Is this your idea of showing "consideration"?

Shall I follow your example and attempt to justify the murder by lying about the circumstances surrounding it? Perhaps that would be more considerate.

You did not "condemn" the man or men that killed the Jewish family. You did go to great lengths to insult the soldier and all (Jews or those you regard as 'no longer faithful to islam') involved with that trial (with reason). You did not criticize those that "celebrated" the brutal slaughter of this family in the streets of their community. I am not having trouble reading. What you leave out of your comments is far more telling than what you "actually" post.

How did I lie? I stated that soldiers are obligated to protect their 'area'. If someone charges (or as you have corrected my understanding, is running away from) a military position (possibly after setting or intending to bomb), it is the nature to shoot first and find out later. That shooting was wrong. It was understandable.
Now, explain how those man/men that broke into someone's home were acting in defense of their position.

 

[logical4u]

Also the Arab Muslims in the IDF are there voluntarily. Israeli law that does require some compulsory military service does not include Arab citizens in that law as they wisely understood that being in the military could require some Arabs to be in combat against friends, neighbors, family. It's tough enough for some to have to do violence to people who look like them. So any Arabs in the Israeli military or police forces are there because their loyalty to country and community overrides loyalty to a race or a religion or any other such criteria.

Indeed, I think these men deserve to be saluted, not pissed on.

They deserve death and what follows. Any person complicit in the oppression of people he claims are his coreligionists is a wretched, miserable creature who lives and dies in a state of abject ignominy.

So all of the islamic country leaders and many, many of their clerics and imams are "complicit in the oppression of people he claims are his coreligionists" are "wretched, miserable creature"(s) "who lives and dies in a state of abject ignominy"? Why don't those "believers" do the same thing to them that they would do to a muslim that was "unarmed or defenseless" accused of 'similar' crimes? Why do the muslim 'citizens' celebrate and support leaders that oppress "people he claims are his coreligionists"? Conflicting actions Kalam.

 

[Ropey]

Go fuck yourself. It is too bad rats and vermin breed in places that are not safe for their families

The self appointed special ones.

TI don't really hate Jews. I have had many good Jewish friends.

Yes, you like rats and vermin, don't you?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Indeed, I think these men deserve to be saluted, not pissed on.

They deserve death and what follows. Any person complicit in the oppression of people he claims are his coreligionists is a wretched, miserable creature who lives and dies in a state of abject ignominy.

These Muslims live in Israel and most have family there, it makes sense for them to want to defend it because they have as much stake in it as the Jews do. Black people enlisted and fought in every American war even when they were treated as second class citizens for the same reason.

Some Palestinians living in Israel consider themselves citizens.

Other Palestinians believe they are living in Israeli occupied Palestine.

 

[High_Gravity]

They deserve death and what follows. Any person complicit in the oppression of people he claims are his coreligionists is a wretched, miserable creature who lives and dies in a state of abject ignominy.

These Muslims live in Israel and most have family there, it makes sense for them to want to defend it because they have as much stake in it as the Jews do. Black people enlisted and fought in every American war even when they were treated as second class citizens for the same reason.

Some Palestinians living in Israel consider themselves citizens.

Other Palestinians believe they are living in Israeli occupied Palestine.

Thats funny considering Palestine doesn't exist.

 

[Jos]

IDF tank fire kills four family members

Israel Defense Forces tank fire struck a home in the Gaza Strip on Tuesday killing four Palestinians from the same family and wounding another 13, Gaza hospital officials said

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...-members-gaza-hospital-officials-say-1.351154
They don't put a name to the Dead

 

[GHook93]

You sure do want me to hate Jews. I don't, though; sorry.

LOL you do. I know you will try to PC thing and say you hate Zionist, but you really mean Jews! Don't mask it Kalam your Muslim you can get a way with openly hating Jews!

 

[HUGGY]

Ah...ya..."The Chosen People". What a crock Jroc. The self appointed special ones. HOW CONVENIENT! It must be a real drag when someone doesn't buy into your bullshit and sees you for what you really are. When your god is exposed as an impostor and melts away and all you have left is what you are doing here and now and have done then and there what are you really? What are you when the excuses run thin? Must be a bitch when you have to stand on the shaky truth.

Does it ever occur to you that if what you believe is not true that you have fucked up a large part of the world for NOTHING?

Does it ever occur to you that if you stopped thinking you are chosen and "special" and actually had to get along with the rest of the people on the planet on your merits and not some mythical bullshit that the world would be a better place?

Does it ever occur to you that personal responsibility and your true standing among men starts with YOU?

I don't really hate Jews. I have had many good Jewish friends. As a people you have imposed your supposed "special" status on the world long enough. It is high time you intellectually grow up and do your part to help make the world more livable for your neighbors as well as yourselves.

"The Chosen People" I don't believe I've ever used that phrase, and this thread is about the slaughter of a family in their beds. You attempt to defend that, you're position is clear. You have "many good Jewish friends." congradulations..Seems I hear a lot of that from racists..."I have many black friends" just let them stay in their own nieborhood right? As I said you are clear with you're hate, we know were you stand.

You are not "clear" on anything that I can tell. I asked my oldest Jewish friend to move in as a room mate when he needed a place to stay. This was before I traveled outside of Seattle and discovered what a bunch of rude self-serving assholes most Jewish people are. You are almost "clear" in that the vast majority of Jews are different...just not special. Unless you admire assholes. Anyway I don't see Jews a a "race". I see a mish mash of many heredities that have deluded themselfs and unfortunately many non Jews into believing they are "chosen" and get to live by rules that would get anyone else killed.

 

[logical4u]

What they found on that humanitarian aid ship bound for Gaza: http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk

 

[Kalam]

It’s a good thing we've got Kalam on the board to define for us who is and is not a muslim. I guess they are only real muslims if they agree with him and hate Jews. He never answered the question of muslim fighting for the U.S. in the Iraq and Afghanistan. I guess they are not real muslims either, they are traitors in his warped mind

You sure do want me to hate Jews. I don't, though; sorry.

Any Muslim who fights for a cause other than God's is condemned to Hell. In the case of so-called Muslims who turn against their own community, we've been given a clear precedent:

Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? God hath upset them for their deeds. Would ye guide those whom God hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom God hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing: But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and take no friends or helpers from their ranks; Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty, or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If God had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and send you peace, then God Hath opened no way for you. - 4:88-90​

How do we know what gods cause is though?

Good question --

It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Musa Ash'ari that a desert Arab came to the Holy Prophet and said, "Messenger of Allah -- one man fights for the spoils of war, another fights so that he may be remembered, and another fights so that he may secure his reputation. Which of these is fighting in the cause of God?" The Messenger of Allah said, "Whoever fights so that the Word of Allah is exalted is fighting in the way of Allah." (Muslim)​

IOW, fulfilling divine commandments on a personal level and on the societal level. That's how I understand it.

for all we know the guys fighting for Hamas and the Taliban are going to burn in hell.

That's completely possible. It doesn't matter how depraved your enemy is or how noble your companions are if you aren't fighting for the right reason.

...Allah will say, "What did you do?" He will say, "I fought for Thee until I died as a martyr." Allah will say, "You have told a lie. You fought so that you might be called a 'brave warrior' -- and you were called so." Orders will be passed against him and he will be dragged with his face downward and cast into Hell. (Muslim)​

That's about the first person judged on the Day of Resurrection. And you're totally right about us not knowing whose intentions are pure; intentions are God's knowledge.