How do you expand the middle class

[candycorn]

Again, this is why it's so important to find creative ways to pay for the enterprise for the middle class;

*Expanding the "4 year degree" to a easier to swallow 6-8 year model for example
*The idea that mimics Social Security where you pay through out your work career for the reward at the end is turned on it's head as to where you get the money up front and then pay for it through out your work career with the option to pay it off directly,

i'm not really following you here....it sounds like you want people to wind up as financial slaves to the government for their education....(which is essentially happening already)

Hardly.

Lets say that 60 hours of college (2 years) costs $20,000 which is probably a bit high for junior colleges.

If you work, like most of us do, for 30-40 years, you're repaying between $700 and $500 a year; over 52 paychecks, that is between $14 and $10 a check per year. Hardly slavery for having Uncle Sam front the money for your education. It would be deducted before taxes which would actually ease your taxable income by a few nickels.

Also remember that not everyone will use all 60 hours. Some will use none of it and that college isn't for them. Some will use part of it to get a certificate or some sort of specialized training.

It would also be usable for those established in their careers who may want to get a leg-up; those who want to take classes in specialized fields, the truck driver who wants to take HAZMAT courses, etc...

 

[candycorn]

private colleges cost more because the government isn't subsidizing them like the others....yet they typically offer the students smaller size classes and more participation and higher quality education....private colleges also typically have more money to help qualified students financially....

The difference between the average is nominal. But, without question, the best colleges are the private colleges.

If you see Harvard on the diploma it means much more than Florida State. However if you see Brigham Young, few think it means much more than Florida State.


Again, this is why it's so important to find creative ways to pay for the enterprise for the middle class;

*Expanding the "4 year degree" to a easier to swallow 6-8 year model for example
*The idea that mimics Social Security where you pay through out your work career for the reward at the end is turned on it's head as to where you get the money up front and then pay for it through out your work career with the option to pay it off directly,


I happen to think that the state supported schools should be barred from having athletics or at the very least that coaches and coaching staffs and facilities have standardized contracts just like where the Dean of the Music department has a slot for their contract versus the music professors, etc...

college loans for students should go back into the private market where they are serious business and not handed out like candy to teenagers....scholarships should become the primary government method of helping out.....

Are you talking about grants from the Government? I agree with the stipulation that the recepient go to State schools.

People get out after 4 or 5 years of college and they are not employable. Why would expanding that time to 8 years of drinking beer and chasing girls make it any better?

Speak for yourself. We have plenty of college educated people working here.

Schools make lots of money off college football (and other sports). Why would you want to prevent that?

A very small percentage of schools make money off of football. Even smaller percentage make money off of anything else.

The issue is that colleges have sold a bill of goods, that a degree is the ticket to a good job. Maybe when I was in school in the early 1980s that was still true. It sure isnt anymore. Kids come out with degrees in "Gay gender studies" and other fluff. They have learned nothing worthwhile and spent a bunch of money doing it.
That is not to say every college grad is like that.

You don't like being studied?

The pre meds, pre laws, and engineering students have learned actual skills necessary for their careers. The others, not so much.

Again, the plan described above is not designed solely for those who are going to study you although I'm sure you could keep platoons of psychiatrists busy for decades.

You can use the 60 hours for anything; learning how to pound a fender or turn a wrench or design a website or take your pre-req's for the traditional college path.

The key is to get more skilled people into the workforce which will expand the middle class.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Again, this is why it's so important to find creative ways to pay for the enterprise for the middle class;

*Expanding the "4 year degree" to a easier to swallow 6-8 year model for example
*The idea that mimics Social Security where you pay through out your work career for the reward at the end is turned on it's head as to where you get the money up front and then pay for it through out your work career with the option to pay it off directly,

i'm not really following you here....it sounds like you want people to wind up as financial slaves to the government for their education....(which is essentially happening already)

Hardly.

Lets say that 60 hours of college (2 years) costs $20,000 which is probably a bit high for junior colleges.

If you work, like most of us do, for 30-40 years, you're repaying between $700 and $500 a year; over 52 paychecks, that is between $14 and $10 a check per year. Hardly slavery for having Uncle Sam front the money for your education. It would be deducted before taxes which would actually ease your taxable income by a few nickels.

Also remember that not everyone will use all 60 hours. Some will use none of it and that college isn't for them. Some will use part of it to get a certificate or some sort of specialized training.

It would also be usable for those established in their careers who may want to get a leg-up; those who want to take classes in specialized fields, the truck driver who wants to take HAZMAT courses, etc...

pay the loans back without interest...? over the next 30-40 years....? everybody would start going to college whether they really needed to or not...the schools would be flooded and probably compromised even more than they already are....

and can you imagine the enormous resulting bubble in college costs....? you'd be practically signing the colleges a blank check...

 

[candycorn]

i'm not really following you here....it sounds like you want people to wind up as financial slaves to the government for their education....(which is essentially happening already)

Hardly.

Lets say that 60 hours of college (2 years) costs $20,000 which is probably a bit high for junior colleges.

If you work, like most of us do, for 30-40 years, you're repaying between $700 and $500 a year; over 52 paychecks, that is between $14 and $10 a check per year. Hardly slavery for having Uncle Sam front the money for your education. It would be deducted before taxes which would actually ease your taxable income by a few nickels.

Also remember that not everyone will use all 60 hours. Some will use none of it and that college isn't for them. Some will use part of it to get a certificate or some sort of specialized training.

It would also be usable for those established in their careers who may want to get a leg-up; those who want to take classes in specialized fields, the truck driver who wants to take HAZMAT courses, etc...

pay the loans back without interest...? over the next 30-40 years....?

No, there will be interest. You can pay it off by payroll deduction or you can make bulk payments in addition, you can use sweat equity (Military Service), etc....

everybody would start going to college whether they really needed to or not...the schools would be flooded and probably compromised even more than they already are....

Classes fill up; always have always will. That is a false concern. We can only hope that people get more training in droves. What is the downside to having a more skilled workforce?

[
and can you imagine the enormous resulting bubble in college costs....? you'd be practically signing the colleges a blank check...

Well, there is only so much expansion that can happen; more campuses but it's not as if we're suffering from too many colleges today are we?

Are you just creating "concerns" at this point?

 

[Stephanie]

Here is the Obama and his comrades in arms plan to EXPAND the middle class..I hope a lot of people CHOSE to live next to the Obama's and all HIS commie appointments such as this brilliant IDIOT..
a lot links in article at site

SNIP:
Obama's HUD to Expand Middle Class
Richard Butrick




How? Just move people from low income neighborhoods into middle class neighborhoods.



This brilliant stratagem is being promoted by Shaun Donovan, Obama's newly appointed head of HUD.



According to Donovan, the middle class is the middle class because they have all the advantages of living in middle class neighborhoods. After all, middle class neighborhoods have better "schools, jobs, transportation, and other important neighborhood resources that can play a role in helping people move into the middle class."



Move people from low income neighborhoods with poor "assets" into neighborhoods with good "assets" and presto they will have middle class jobs and all the other "assets" of being in the middle class.



Not only is this economically sound, it follows from the moral principle that every American has the right "to choose to live in a community they feel proud of."



That being the case, not only is it immoral to discriminate on the housing front on the basis of ethnicity and sexuality, it is equally immoral to discriminate on the basis of ability to pay. Under HUD"s new "Fair Housing" plan, HUD, one way or another, will make sure taxpayers eat the tab for this brilliant piece of social engineering.. Unlike the old failed Housing Choice Voucher (HCV) program, this one under HUD Secretary Shaun Donovan is going to work because Donovan is going to use "21st Century methods":

all of it here
Read more: Blog: Obama's HUD to Expand Middle Class
Follow us: [MENTION=20123]American[/MENTION]Thinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook

 

[boedicca]

As I've noted earlier in the thread: having middle class symbols such as a house in a nice neighborhood doesn't make somebody middle class. Behaviors and values which lead to the ability to purchase such a house and maintain it do.

 

[The Rabbi]

Speak for yourself. We have plenty of college educated people working here.


A very small percentage of schools make money off of football. Even smaller percentage make money off of anything else.

The issue is that colleges have sold a bill of goods, that a degree is the ticket to a good job. Maybe when I was in school in the early 1980s that was still true. It sure isnt anymore. Kids come out with degrees in "Gay gender studies" and other fluff. They have learned nothing worthwhile and spent a bunch of money doing it.
That is not to say every college grad is like that.

You don't like being studied?

The pre meds, pre laws, and engineering students have learned actual skills necessary for their careers. The others, not so much.

Again, the plan described above is not designed solely for those who are going to study you although I'm sure you could keep platoons of psychiatrists busy for decades.

You can use the 60 hours for anything; learning how to pound a fender or turn a wrench or design a website or take your pre-req's for the traditional college path.

The key is to get more skilled people into the workforce which will expand the middle class.

OK, so your response is "That isn't my personal experience so you must be wrong."
"You're stupid"
"You can use the 60 hours for anything" which probably includes work avoidance.
"MOre school equals more skill" which is simply flat out wrong.

You also assume people will be employable when they leave so they can have payroll deduction on their paychecks. Of course about 50% of college grads over the last 2 years are unemployed or underemployed. Producing legions more won't help that at all.

So in all your proposals are half baked and typically liberal, in that they call for massive spending that will make a problem worse. No doubt you will blame the GOP for not doing enough.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Again, this is why it's so important to find creative ways to pay for the enterprise for the middle class;

*Expanding the "4 year degree" to a easier to swallow 6-8 year model for example
*The idea that mimics Social Security where you pay through out your work career for the reward at the end is turned on it's head as to where you get the money up front and then pay for it through out your work career with the option to pay it off directly,

i'm not really following you here....it sounds like you want people to wind up as financial slaves to the government for their education....(which is essentially happening already)

Hardly.

Lets say that 60 hours of college (2 years) costs $20,000 which is probably a bit high for junior colleges.

If you work, like most of us do, for 30-40 years, you're repaying between $700 and $500 a year; over 52 paychecks, that is between $14 and $10 a check per year. Hardly slavery for having Uncle Sam front the money for your education. It would be deducted before taxes which would actually ease your taxable income by a few nickels.

Also remember that not everyone will use all 60 hours. Some will use none of it and that college isn't for them. Some will use part of it to get a certificate or some sort of specialized training.

It would also be usable for those established in their careers who may want to get a leg-up; those who want to take classes in specialized fields, the truck driver who wants to take HAZMAT courses, etc...

No interest?

 

[candycorn]

i'm not really following you here....it sounds like you want people to wind up as financial slaves to the government for their education....(which is essentially happening already)

Hardly.

Lets say that 60 hours of college (2 years) costs $20,000 which is probably a bit high for junior colleges.

If you work, like most of us do, for 30-40 years, you're repaying between $700 and $500 a year; over 52 paychecks, that is between $14 and $10 a check per year. Hardly slavery for having Uncle Sam front the money for your education. It would be deducted before taxes which would actually ease your taxable income by a few nickels.

Also remember that not everyone will use all 60 hours. Some will use none of it and that college isn't for them. Some will use part of it to get a certificate or some sort of specialized training.

It would also be usable for those established in their careers who may want to get a leg-up; those who want to take classes in specialized fields, the truck driver who wants to take HAZMAT courses, etc...

No interest?

No there is interest. The above is just an example. ...

 

[candycorn]

Speak for yourself. We have plenty of college educated people working here.


A very small percentage of schools make money off of football. Even smaller percentage make money off of anything else.

The issue is that colleges have sold a bill of goods, that a degree is the ticket to a good job. Maybe when I was in school in the early 1980s that was still true. It sure isnt anymore. Kids come out with degrees in "Gay gender studies" and other fluff. They have learned nothing worthwhile and spent a bunch of money doing it.
That is not to say every college grad is like that.

You don't like being studied?

The pre meds, pre laws, and engineering students have learned actual skills necessary for their careers. The others, not so much.

Again, the plan described above is not designed solely for those who are going to study you although I'm sure you could keep platoons of psychiatrists busy for decades.

You can use the 60 hours for anything; learning how to pound a fender or turn a wrench or design a website or take your pre-req's for the traditional college path.

The key is to get more skilled people into the workforce which will expand the middle class.

OK, so your response is "That isn't my personal experience so you must be wrong."
"You're stupid"
"You can use the 60 hours for anything" which probably includes work avoidance.
"MOre school equals more skill" which is simply flat out wrong.

We're hiring 80 degreed professionals for our campuses we're opening over the next 20 months.

Fewer school grads certainly doesn't lead to greater skills in the real world; your mileage may vary in Conservistan where education is seen as an impediment.

I think having more auto mechanics, welders, AC repair persons is better than having fewer.

Why do you disagree?

You also assume people will be employable when they leave so they can have payroll deduction on their paychecks. Of course about 50% of college grads over the last 2 years are unemployed or underemployed. Producing legions more won't help that at all.

Link to 50% of college grads not being employed or under employed...?

So in all your proposals are half baked and typically liberal, in that they call for massive spending that will make a problem worse. No doubt you will blame the GOP for not doing enough.

Your answer/ideas for expanding the middle class is what exactly? Complain about Obama...personal insults...false claims about the value of education.

 

[The Rabbi]

Speak for yourself. We have plenty of college educated people working here.


A very small percentage of schools make money off of football. Even smaller percentage make money off of anything else.



You don't like being studied?



Again, the plan described above is not designed solely for those who are going to study you although I'm sure you could keep platoons of psychiatrists busy for decades.

You can use the 60 hours for anything; learning how to pound a fender or turn a wrench or design a website or take your pre-req's for the traditional college path.

The key is to get more skilled people into the workforce which will expand the middle class.

OK, so your response is "That isn't my personal experience so you must be wrong."
"You're stupid"
"You can use the 60 hours for anything" which probably includes work avoidance.
"MOre school equals more skill" which is simply flat out wrong.

We're hiring 80 degreed professionals for our campuses we're opening over the next 20 months.

Fewer school grads certainly doesn't lead to greater skills in the real world; your mileage may vary in Conservistan where education is seen as an impediment.

I think having more auto mechanics, welders, AC repair persons is better than having fewer.

Why do you disagree?

You also assume people will be employable when they leave so they can have payroll deduction on their paychecks. Of course about 50% of college grads over the last 2 years are unemployed or underemployed. Producing legions more won't help that at all.

Link to 50% of college grads not being employed or under employed...?

So in all your proposals are half baked and typically liberal, in that they call for massive spending that will make a problem worse. No doubt you will blame the GOP for not doing enough.

Your answer/ideas for expanding the middle class is what exactly? Complain about Obama...personal insults...false claims about the value of education.

No, you dont get it. The fact that your company is hiring college grads isnt proof of anything. Your personal experience is irrelevant here.
This took 25 seconds. Google is your friend.
Recent U.S. college graduates disillusioned, more than 40% unemployed: poll* - NY Daily News

It isnt that "education" doesnt help. But there is no such thing as "education." People who majored in Gay Band Studies have some kind of education. But not anything anyone wants to use.

My solution is complex because the problem is complex. Getting gov't out of the education business is a good first start. Generous grants and loans have only caused colleges to increase tuitions, which have risen many times the rate of inflation. There are way too many people going to college as it is.
Go read Charles Murray's Real Education. I realize that isn't as much fun or as easy as spouting ignorant inane opinions here. But it might make your posts a tad less ridiculous.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Hardly.

Lets say that 60 hours of college (2 years) costs $20,000 which is probably a bit high for junior colleges.

If you work, like most of us do, for 30-40 years, you're repaying between $700 and $500 a year; over 52 paychecks, that is between $14 and $10 a check per year. Hardly slavery for having Uncle Sam front the money for your education. It would be deducted before taxes which would actually ease your taxable income by a few nickels.

Also remember that not everyone will use all 60 hours. Some will use none of it and that college isn't for them. Some will use part of it to get a certificate or some sort of specialized training.

It would also be usable for those established in their careers who may want to get a leg-up; those who want to take classes in specialized fields, the truck driver who wants to take HAZMAT courses, etc...

No interest?

No there is interest. The above is just an example. ...

I hate to say this... not a bad idea.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Hardly.

Lets say that 60 hours of college (2 years) costs $20,000 which is probably a bit high for junior colleges.

If you work, like most of us do, for 30-40 years, you're repaying between $700 and $500 a year; over 52 paychecks, that is between $14 and $10 a check per year. Hardly slavery for having Uncle Sam front the money for your education. It would be deducted before taxes which would actually ease your taxable income by a few nickels.

Also remember that not everyone will use all 60 hours. Some will use none of it and that college isn't for them. Some will use part of it to get a certificate or some sort of specialized training.

It would also be usable for those established in their careers who may want to get a leg-up; those who want to take classes in specialized fields, the truck driver who wants to take HAZMAT courses, etc...

pay the loans back without interest...? over the next 30-40 years....?

No, there will be interest. You can pay it off by payroll deduction or you can make bulk payments in addition, you can use sweat equity (Military Service), etc....

everybody would start going to college whether they really needed to or not...the schools would be flooded and probably compromised even more than they already are....

Classes fill up; always have always will. That is a false concern. We can only hope that people get more training in droves. What is the downside to having a more skilled workforce?

[
and can you imagine the enormous resulting bubble in college costs....? you'd be practically signing the colleges a blank check...

Well, there is only so much expansion that can happen; more campuses but it's not as if we're suffering from too many colleges today are we?

Are you just creating "concerns" at this point?

why don't you just extend high school for another 2 years....?

 

[Wyatt earp]

Hardly.

Lets say that 60 hours of college (2 years) costs $20,000 which is probably a bit high for junior colleges.

If you work, like most of us do, for 30-40 years, you're repaying between $700 and $500 a year; over 52 paychecks, that is between $14 and $10 a check per year. Hardly slavery for having Uncle Sam front the money for your education. It would be deducted before taxes which would actually ease your taxable income by a few nickels.

Also remember that not everyone will use all 60 hours. Some will use none of it and that college isn't for them. Some will use part of it to get a certificate or some sort of specialized training.

It would also be usable for those established in their careers who may want to get a leg-up; those who want to take classes in specialized fields, the truck driver who wants to take HAZMAT courses, etc...

No interest?

No there is interest. The above is just an example. ...

I hate to say this not a bad idea except how much would it cost us a trillion fricking dollars over 5 years? we need more technical high schools.

 

[The Rabbi]

Murray's solution was to have a comprehensive exam, similar to what CPAs take. Anyone who takes and passes the exam is assured of possession certain basic skills in writing and numeracy. Thus companies could hire certificate holders knowing they had certain basic skills. As opposed to now when you have a high school grad and he might be brilliant or he might be illiterate.

 

[candycorn]

pay the loans back without interest...? over the next 30-40 years....?

No, there will be interest. You can pay it off by payroll deduction or you can make bulk payments in addition, you can use sweat equity (Military Service), etc....


Classes fill up; always have always will. That is a false concern. We can only hope that people get more training in droves. What is the downside to having a more skilled workforce?

[
and can you imagine the enormous resulting bubble in college costs....? you'd be practically signing the colleges a blank check...

Well, there is only so much expansion that can happen; more campuses but it's not as if we're suffering from too many colleges today are we?

Are you just creating "concerns" at this point?

why don't you just extend high school for another 2 years....?

I prefer not to have 20 year olds in high school for one thing
I would estimate that, at minimum, 3 out of 10 won't participate and they will go directly into the workforce or the military or whatever so there is no need to expand high school
I think four years of compulsory studies are quite enough

Are we done?

 

[ScreamingEagle]

i think high schools should stop at age 16.....the kid can then either attend trade school type classes or else choose two years of college prep classes...

 

[candycorn]

No interest?

No there is interest. The above is just an example. ...

I hate to say this not a bad idea except how much would it cost us a trillion fricking dollars over 5 years? we need more technical high schools.

It won't cost anywhere near a trillion dollars. IF the money is spent though, it will be going to other state entities in a lot of cases; not as if it just disappears. So you get a bit of a relief on the funding front for these colleges.

A technical high school...I agree. Lets put more vocational training back into school. I like the idea. Of course opening more technical high schools would cost quite a bit too.

I think training those already in the workforce is a good idea as well.

 

[candycorn]

i think high schools should stop at age 16.....the kid can then either attend trade school type classes or else choose two years of college prep classes...

Not the worst idea ever.

 

[Wyatt earp]

i think high schools should stop at age 16.....the kid can then either attend trade school type classes or else choose two years of college prep classes...

great idea.....