How do you expand the middle class

[ScreamingEagle]

And that would expand the middle class how exactly? You had a good idea with the technical school. This one seems like what we have now which is based on long obsolete models of what education is. It's no longer serving this nation well.

we can encourage more and better participation in both the technical and the regular colleges...

you would have more kids studying harder to go to college (& stay in college) because they would be GUARANTEED to get funding no matter what....right now the funding application process is confusing and daunting to many...even the parents.....lots of high school students don't even know about them...

right now alot of kids do not understand the relationship between their grades & study habits and money for college/getting a better job....this would CLARIFY it for them...

in fact we could sweeten the pot by also promising a combination of guaranteed grants with the guaranteed loans....

what we want in the colleges (and high tech trade schools) are young people who have proven their worth and ability......not a carte blanche ticket to everybody so they can attend the Party School of their choice...

we don't need to completely change the relationship between the state and federal governments with regard to college....just streamline the loan process we have now...

So basically tweaking the system and streamlining a process of loans and grants, you think, will expand the middle class? I think you are woefully mistaken. To quote a movie I once saw, "The time for talk and half measures has passed."

I'm talking about taking those who have "proved their worth and ability" and giving them a real opporutnity to further their training to stay on that cutting edge. I'm talking about allowing kids to get a leg up for college or, if THEY WISH, a lifetime of fixing automobiles or welding or logistics or what have you. There is no shame in learning how to turn a wrench or working in a machine shop.

As for changing the relationship; currently the government backs loans, right? The "change" is that they will back the loans that will come with no qualification.

Whatsmore, wee get rid of the unfair grant process as to where you're punished if your family is comfortable; we remove the #1 barrier between people and education/training which is paying for it; and we end up with a largely self-sustaining system that will take years to get up and running but tomorrow's workers will be paying for the training of today's studiers. Much in the same way social security works

Changing the relationship (between state and federal) is what you are really proposing...you obviously want the Life of Julia.....

by keeping the fed loans/scholarships as they are today we can still maintain STATE-RUN institutions....

tweaking them so if kids get a B or better average they will know automatically that they can get a scholarship or automatic loan to go to college or tech school...this will encourage the smarter ones...

new jobs are going to come from innovation....and major innovations will mainly come from the smart kids....

do all B or better students attend college today?....no....many slip through the cracks...
will many C students strive to get a B if they know they will be funded for sure....? most likely...

we don't need to educate every tom, dick, and harry coming out of high school.....many prefer to just get a job...lots of jobs only need on-the-job training....

 

[deltex1]

Perhaps it's not the number who go to college but rather the number of unproductive degrees they earn. One of my grandsons is getting a degree in actuarial math. In his university of 40000 plus students 400 plus are math majors. Who will be middle class?

 

[nitroz]

1. Raise minimum wages to what it would be if indexed to inflation. Then make future min income increases automatic to inflation, in order to take the power away from any greed-based GOP dominated government to undo it or stop it.

2. Limit imports, weaken "free trade" agreements, use anti-dumping laws as an end-around on the trade agreements that sadly do exist. If it's worth selling here, it's worth making here, end of debate.

3. Increase union power. Mandate union membership for all companies with 50 employees or above.

4. Increase income taxes. We need more rates and higher rates, up to 50% of income on anything over 3 million/year. And scrap the needless "capital gains" rate too. The people who "earn" capital gains spend it the same way they spend income, so it should be taxed the same way too. The new government revenue from this positive change should be spent on shoring up social spending programs, especially in poor, black neighborhoods. This will also help bring down the crime rates that white conservatives are supposedly so worried about.

I half agree.
Union power is something that is good, but also something that can be abused.
Also, everyone needs to be taxed equally at a certain percentage. Taxing too much won't work if you can't fix your budget issues.

If companies want to import their products? fine. But I think an income tax is in order to even out the costs, making it not worth it to invest in sweatshops overseas.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Perhaps it's not the number who go to college but rather the number of unproductive degrees they earn. One of my grandsons is getting a degree in actuarial math. In his university of 40000 plus students 400 plus are math majors. Who will be middle class?

critical thinking is something that has disappeared from the college campus...

a special report by The Chronicle of Higher Education and American Public Media’s Marketplace published in March found that about half of 704 employers who participated in the study said they had trouble finding recent college graduates qualified to fill positions at their company.

But, surprisingly, it wasn’t necessarily specific technical skills that were lacking.

“When it comes to the skills most needed by employers, job candidates are lacking most in written and oral communication skills, adaptability and managing multiple priorities, and making decisions and problem solving,” the report said.

Jaime S. Fall, a vice president at the HR Policy Association, an organization of chief human resources managers from large employers, said these findings backed up what his organization was hearing over and over from employers.

Young employees “are very good at finding information, but not as good at putting that information into context,” Mr. Fall said. “They’re really good at technology, but not at how to take those skills and resolve specific business problems.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/29/y...graduates-employable.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[Wyatt earp]

Not everything has to do with elections.
It is perfectly logical. What has happened to the starting salaries of all college grads over the last 20 years?

What has happened to job prospects for non college grads--forget salaries--in the last 20 years? Hmmm?

Avoiding the question means you've lost.

It depends. The non college grads who went to trade school and became electricians and computer programmers seem to be doing just fine.

Forget about being a residental electrician unless you join a union all the illegals took over.. I did a few side jobs during shut downs all they want to pay is like $10 ~ $16 bucks an hour in SC and when I lived in Illinois, fuck doing that for a real job.

 

[RandallFlagg]

What has happened to job prospects for non college grads--forget salaries--in the last 20 years? Hmmm?

Avoiding the question means you've lost.

It depends. The non college grads who went to trade school and became electricians and computer programmers seem to be doing just fine.

Forget about being a residental electrician unless you join a union all the illegals took over.. I did a few side jobs during shut downs all they want to pay is like $10 ~ $16 bucks an hour in SC and when I lived in Illinois, fuck doing that for a real job.

My buddy (after getting his Journeyman's license) opened his own business and made a fine living. Like I said earlier, his last year (before he died) he made about $125,000. He also worked at Ford for 20 years in Maintenance (IBEW) and pulled down about $70,000.

Not peanuts.....

 

[Nova78]

How do you expand the middle class

Get rid of Obama and the 100,000 immigrants he imports every month to take your job !

 

[candycorn]

Not everything has to do with elections.
It is perfectly logical. What has happened to the starting salaries of all college grads over the last 20 years?

What has happened to job prospects for non college grads--forget salaries--in the last 20 years? Hmmm?

Avoiding the question means you've lost.

It depends. The non college grads who went to trade school and became electricians and computer programmers seem to be doing just fine.

Put another way, the more education the have, the more likely you are to find a job. Having no job means you're making $0.00

 

[candycorn]

Perhaps it's not the number who go to college but rather the number of unproductive degrees they earn. One of my grandsons is getting a degree in actuarial math. In his university of 40000 plus students 400 plus are math majors. Who will be middle class?

I have absolutely no problem with loans/grants being steered toward those STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering and Math).

Unfortunately, most conservatives would call that "picking winners" and they're against that.

I think that there is a benefit to government intervention.

I would prefer that there is no government intervention on the whole; That there would be some sort of "reality check" performed on people who are going to college or thinking about going; perhaps a giant Ad Council program to encourage STEM educations.

Don't know...more education is better...I'd rather have 400 Drama Majors than 400 HS drop outs.

 

[The Rabbi]

What has happened to job prospects for non college grads--forget salaries--in the last 20 years? Hmmm?

Avoiding the question means you've lost.

It depends. The non college grads who went to trade school and became electricians and computer programmers seem to be doing just fine.

Put another way, the more education the have, the more likely you are to find a job. Having no job means you're making $0.00

That doesnt really contradict anything I wrote. The fact you think it is even remotely relevant shows how ignorant you are of the issues here.

 

[candycorn]

we can encourage more and better participation in both the technical and the regular colleges...

you would have more kids studying harder to go to college (& stay in college) because they would be GUARANTEED to get funding no matter what....right now the funding application process is confusing and daunting to many...even the parents.....lots of high school students don't even know about them...

right now alot of kids do not understand the relationship between their grades & study habits and money for college/getting a better job....this would CLARIFY it for them...

in fact we could sweeten the pot by also promising a combination of guaranteed grants with the guaranteed loans....

what we want in the colleges (and high tech trade schools) are young people who have proven their worth and ability......not a carte blanche ticket to everybody so they can attend the Party School of their choice...

we don't need to completely change the relationship between the state and federal governments with regard to college....just streamline the loan process we have now...

So basically tweaking the system and streamlining a process of loans and grants, you think, will expand the middle class? I think you are woefully mistaken. To quote a movie I once saw, "The time for talk and half measures has passed."

I'm talking about taking those who have "proved their worth and ability" and giving them a real opporutnity to further their training to stay on that cutting edge. I'm talking about allowing kids to get a leg up for college or, if THEY WISH, a lifetime of fixing automobiles or welding or logistics or what have you. There is no shame in learning how to turn a wrench or working in a machine shop.

As for changing the relationship; currently the government backs loans, right? The "change" is that they will back the loans that will come with no qualification.

Whatsmore, wee get rid of the unfair grant process as to where you're punished if your family is comfortable; we remove the #1 barrier between people and education/training which is paying for it; and we end up with a largely self-sustaining system that will take years to get up and running but tomorrow's workers will be paying for the training of today's studiers. Much in the same way social security works

Changing the relationship (between state and federal) is what you are really proposing...you obviously want the Life of Julia.....

by keeping the fed loans/scholarships as they are today we can still maintain STATE-RUN institutions....

States will still run their universities.

tweaking them so if kids get a B or better average they will know automatically that they can get a scholarship or automatic loan to go to college or tech school...this will encourage the smarter ones...new jobs are going to come from innovation....and major innovations will mainly come from the smart kids....
do all B or better students attend college today?....no....many slip through the cracks...
will many C students strive to get a B if they know they will be funded for sure....? most likely...

we don't need to educate every tom, dick, and harry coming out of high school.....many prefer to just get a job...lots of jobs only need on-the-job training....

We currently have grants, loans, scholarships and other ways to pay for college. Not everybody goes to college. Why? Because they don't want to. The proposal I parroted will be no different. We won't be educating every Tom Dick and Harry. No way, no how.

As for the "on the job training" BS, it's just that. As soon as the economy shifts, the OTJT people are often the first to get let go and you see them on the 6 o'clock news talking about being out of work for a dozen months or so.

The OTJT people also top out quickly. We have nurses aides and LVNs. Simply put, they may be LVNs for 20 years and the raises stop sometime around 12 years or so. RN's top out as well but at a much higher rate of pay. DONs get paid more than staff nurses.

The difference isn't OTJT...it's college training. Sorry.

The difference is that Tom, Dick and Harry will go as far as their training will take them and no further. They can go back to school, of course, if they want to go through the process of grants, loans, scholarships etc...someone called it onerous.

If these people knew they had 60 hours of schooling at their disposal...wow...

By the way, your B student who gets to go to college, according to statistics, have a 3 out of 10 chance of working in their major:
Only 27 percent of college grads have a job related to their major

Being able to get the training later in life is important...


Anyway, we're going round in circles...thanks for the debate.
More schooling is better than less schooling. Be it at the age of 18, 38, or 58.

 

[candycorn]

Avoiding the question means you've lost.

It depends. The non college grads who went to trade school and became electricians and computer programmers seem to be doing just fine.

Put another way, the more education the have, the more likely you are to find a job. Having no job means you're making $0.00

That doesnt really contradict anything I wrote. The fact you think it is even remotely relevant shows how ignorant you are of the issues here.

Sure it does. It clearly reports that the more education, the higher your pay; starting or otherwise gayboy.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Avoiding the question means you've lost.

It depends. The non college grads who went to trade school and became electricians and computer programmers seem to be doing just fine.

Forget about being a residental electrician unless you join a union all the illegals took over.. I did a few side jobs during shut downs all they want to pay is like $10 ~ $16 bucks an hour in SC and when I lived in Illinois, fuck doing that for a real job.

My buddy (after getting his Journeyman's license) opened his own business and made a fine living. Like I said earlier, his last year (before he died) he made about $125,000. He also worked at Ford for 20 years in Maintenance (IBEW) and pulled down about $70,000.

Not peanuts.....

Not interested in a Union job would rather make minimum wage at Walmart then ever be controlled by a Union boss... sorry but just a man.....

 

[Wyatt earp]

no mother fucker can tell me what to do... no boss or Union faggot.... I own my own world. Because I have over 30 years of the skill to do my job...and I am good at it...

 

[candycorn]

 

[The Rabbi]

Put another way, the more education the have, the more likely you are to find a job. Having no job means you're making $0.00

That doesnt really contradict anything I wrote. The fact you think it is even remotely relevant shows how ignorant you are of the issues here.

Sure it does. It clearly reports that the more education, the higher your pay; starting or otherwise gayboy.

That wasn't what I said. That's irrelevant to what I said.
You are one stupid broad.

 

[candycorn]

That doesnt really contradict anything I wrote. The fact you think it is even remotely relevant shows how ignorant you are of the issues here.

Sure it does. It clearly reports that the more education, the higher your pay; starting or otherwise gayboy.

That wasn't what I said. That's irrelevant to what I said.
You are one stupid broad.

Here is what you said:

What has happened to the starting salaries of all college grads over the last 20 years?

The graph shows what has happened; they have remained superior to those with less education. I imagine as one who has less education that pisses you off, fag.

 

[The Rabbi]

Sure it does. It clearly reports that the more education, the higher your pay; starting or otherwise gayboy.

That wasn't what I said. That's irrelevant to what I said.
You are one stupid broad.

Here is what you said:

What has happened to the starting salaries of all college grads over the last 20 years?

The graph shows what has happened; they have remained superior to those with less education. I imagine as one who has less education that pisses you off, fag.

Damn are you playing dumb or are you the genuine article? I suspect you really are brain damaged in some way and unable to understand a logical argument.
I didnt ask about college grads vs non grads. I asked about college grads in the past vs college grads now. And I would bet money starting salaries have declined as the market is saturated with idiots holding BAs who are unable to read and understand a simple sentence. Like you.

 

[Nosmo King]

How do those jobs get created...by government or by entrepreneurs?

Entreprenuers, corporations, small businesses, etc. Not government. Government doesn't create jobs, they buy them with our money.

Folks in construction, engineering and transportation tend to disagree. New infrastructure means new jobs. Someone has to design and build it and once it's built, infrastructure plays a key role in development.

And if the very well capitalized private sector refuses to pump that money back into America, the government has to.

The question is: if the private sector is holding so much capital, why aren't they circulating in through our economy?

 

[The Rabbi]

How do those jobs get created...by government or by entrepreneurs?

Entreprenuers, corporations, small businesses, etc. Not government. Government doesn't create jobs, they buy them with our money.

Folks in construction, engineering and transportation tend to disagree. New infrastructure means new jobs. Someone has to design and build it and once it's built, infrastructure plays a key role in development.

And if the very well capitalized private sector refuses to pump that money back into America, the government has to.

The question is: if the private sector is holding so much capital, why aren't they circulating in through our economy?

Remind me how refurbishing unused train stations and building airports no one uses play a key role in the economy.
The role of the private sector is not to "circulate money through the economy" (whatever the hell that means). It is to engage in profitable business. This isnt happening due to gov't policies of increased taxes and regulation.