How do you explain a ordered universe without a Creator?

[Wuwei]

Perhaps you can tell me one day why the USA destroyed Germany, Austria-Hungaria and the empire of the Osmans in world war 1. That's a mystery to me. I never understood the US-american motivation to do so.

That was before my time. However I have no idea why the US was so stupid and invaded Iran and set the stage for a total mess in the Mideast.

I'm a fundamentalist on my own, because the fundament of the christian religion is Peter, the rock. And our current rockstar is Francescso. For me personally is scientology for example an extremistic organisation, which has absolutelly nothing to do with religion. It's a criminal organisation - nothing else. This sociopaths use just simple mindmanipulating methods to make slaves out of everyone. By the way: Why did you use the formula "religiuos fundamentalism" (=¿antichristian?) and for example not "religious extremism"? Are you yourselve a victim of mindmanipulating methods?

Yes I consider Scientology extremism. But when over half of Americans don't believe in evolution and the big bang theory, I really couldn't call that large a population extremists.

The father of the big-bang theory was the priest and phycicist Georges Lemaître and every farmer since thousands of years uses the natural law "evolution" by practicing "'natural' selection". On the other side the expression "evolution" or "genes" are today used in contextes which have often nothing to do with anythgin else any longer. Sometimes its pure ideology and I have the feeling the most people who are using the wors "evolution" don't know what they are speaking about. So no wonder if no one trusts in such people. For example exists not an evolution of cars (or any other machine including software). Such things follow justs simple human plans and fashions.

I agree for the most part. I think "natural selection" is a more exact term than "evolution".

I needed once a longer time to understand why it's impossible to understand the anglo-american discussion "creation vs evolution". It's an empty discussion. You say yourselve here that it is a problem not to believe in evolution (energy becomes tranformed in living entities) and creation (creation of rules, energy, space, time and so on). If you believe in the 'big bang' (=a beginning of the world) then you are a creationist.

As I understand it, creationism means a sudden appearance, where evolution means a gradual natural selection.

The big bang is the only theory of the universe that makes sense to me. But to say I'm a creationist would be confusing a biblical creationist with a science outlook. The word creationist in that context generally means biblical.

 

[Wuwei]

¿What are "hard sciences"?

Physics and chemistry where rigorous mathematical modeling is used.

No. It's for example a problem that the star HD 140283 has an age of about 14.5 billion years while the universe is about 13.8 billions years old. Both together is not able to be true - so everyone starts immediatelly to find out what's wrong with such measurements. The scientific paradigma behind such problems is: "What's not wrong is true". But in this case exists something what's wrong. To find the reasons why something is wrong brings progress.

In my opinion there are so many things pointing to the age as 14.5 B years, that the age of that particular star is probably either a measurement error, or there is a stellar process that is different than assumed.

Truth is a word that philosophers use, but you won't find scientists calling a theory "true".

 

[zaangalewa]

Perhaps you can tell me one day why the USA destroyed Germany, Austria-Hungaria and the empire of the Osmans in world war 1. That's a mystery to me. I never understood the US-american motivation to do so.

That was before my time. However I have no idea why the US was so stupid and invaded Iran and set the stage for a total mess in the Mideast.

Iran? ... I guess you thought about the war of G.W. Bush against the Iraq. The Iraq was founded from the english empire in 1932. Also one of the strange 'solutions' after world war 1. It seems to me everything what was a result of world war 1 exploded. In the english plans for this region was for example no place for the Kurds - and today even Turkey is in danger to lose democracy and to end in a kind of civil war or genocide.

I'm a fundamentalist on my own, because the fundament of the christian religion is Peter, the rock. And our current rockstar is Francescso. For me personally is scientology for example an extremistic organisation, which has absolutelly nothing to do with religion. It's a criminal organisation - nothing else. This sociopaths use just simple mindmanipulating methods to make slaves out of everyone. By the way: Why did you use the formula "religiuos fundamentalism" (=¿antichristian?) and for example not "religious extremism"? Are you yourselve a victim of mindmanipulating methods?

Yes I consider Scientology extremism. But when over half of Americans don't believe in evolution and the big bang theory, I really couldn't call that large a population extremists.

The father of the big-bang theory was the priest and phycicist Georges Lemaître and every farmer since thousands of years uses the natural law "evolution" by practicing "'natural' selection". On the other side the expression "evolution" or "genes" are today used in contextes which have often nothing to do with anythgin else any longer. Sometimes its pure ideology and I have the feeling the most people who are using the wors "evolution" don't know what they are speaking about. So no wonder if no one trusts in such people. For example exists not an evolution of cars (or any other machine including software). Such things follow justs simple human plans and fashions.

I agree for the most part. I think "natural selection" is a more exact term than "evolution".

I needed once a longer time to understand why it's impossible to understand the anglo-american discussion "creation vs evolution". It's an empty discussion. You say yourselve here that it is a problem not to believe in evolution (energy becomes tranformed in living entities) and creation (creation of rules, energy, space, time and so on). If you believe in the 'big bang' (=a beginning of the world) then you are a creationist.

As I understand it, creationism means a sudden appearance, where evolution means a gradual natural selection.

The big bang is the only theory of the universe that makes sense to me. But to say I'm a creationist would be confusing a biblical creationist with a science outlook. The word creationist in that context generally means biblical.

One example: When the big bang started then suddenly all energy of the universe existed in a size less than an atom. Since this energy was created no one and nothing is able to create or to destroy energy and this energy found lots of different ways and forms. So "creation" and "evolution" are senseful words. We could for example imagine that all possible worlds were spiritually precreated and our world realizes now different ways. I don't see anything what leads to a confrontation between religion and science. While some people seem to think a human being is the own brain and nothing else (biological evolution builds bio-machines and bio-computers) others seem to think we are only our information and nothing else. But we are both: body and soul. It's difficult for me to undrestand the very extreme positions in the english speaking world which seem to block the free flow of human thoughts and human energy. I fear in the english speaking world science degenerates more and more into a new form of ideology. And unfortunatelly we gave it up to use our own language in science any longer. We use english too.

 

[zaangalewa]

¿What are "hard sciences"?

Physics and chemistry where rigorous mathematical modeling is used.

Mathematics is not a science. The atheist Feynman said for example something about this. Feynman was one of the best phycisists the world ever had seen.

No. It's for example a problem that the star HD 140283 has an age of about 14.5 billion years while the universe is about 13.8 billions years old. Both together is not able to be true - so everyone starts immediatelly to find out what's wrong with such measurements. The scientific paradigma behind such problems is: "What's not wrong is true". But in this case exists something what's wrong. To find the reasons why something is wrong brings progress.

In my opinion there are so many things pointing to the age as 14.5 B years, that the age of that particular star is probably either a measurement error, or there is a stellar process that is different than assumed.

Truth is a word that philosophers use, but you won't find scientists calling a theory "true".

True is what's not wrong. We know for example that the theory of relativity - the best proven theory in physics - and the standard theory of quantum mechanics give under special conditions different results. So we know something is wrong. That's the sad truth. We know this because of the paradigma of science "There's only one common truth". Sure we could give up this paradigma, because some people hate god and his children - but in this case we give up science too. A result in whatever science is not able to be true and the opposit of this result is also able to be true in another science. Science depends not on the perception of truth how we do as individuals. It depends on truth itselve in intersubjective agreements and tested in the reality around. That's what scientists worldwide are doing. They ask "Can it be true if we ... then ..." ... better to say: this is what they should ask. I fear more and more people don't give themselve and others any longer the chance to be wrong. They define: "I am right and everyone else is an idiot."

 

[Wuwei]

Iran? ... I guess you thought about the war of G.W. Bush against the Iraq. The Iraq was founded from the english empire in 1932. Also one of the strange 'solutions' after world war 1. It seems to me everything what was a result of world war 1 exploded. In the english plans for this region was for example no place for the Kurds - and today even Turkey is in danger to lose democracy and to end in a kind of civil war or genocide.

You are right. I meant to say Iraq.

One example: When the big bang started then suddenly all energy of the universe existed in a size less than an atom. Since this energy was created no one and nothing is able to create or to destroy energy and this energy found lots of different ways and forms. So "creation" and "evolution" are senseful words. We could for example imagine that all possible worlds were spiritually precreated and our world realizes now different ways. I don't see anything what leads to a confrontation between religion and science. While some people seem to think a human being is the own brain and nothing else (biological evolution builds bio-machines and bio-computers) others seem to think we are only our information and nothing else. But we are both: body and soul. It's difficult for me to undrestand the very extreme positions in the english speaking world which seem to block the free flow of human thoughts and human energy. I fear in the english speaking world science degenerates more and more into a new form of ideology. And unfortunatelly we gave it up to use our own language in science any longer. We use english.

I agree with the word "creation" but not "creationism" when used in the big bang.

I don't understand the English speaking world either. Most Americans think the USA is exceptional, and above all other countries. That was the case once, but we are now behind many countries in education and health care.

 

[Boss]

Most Americans think the USA is exceptional, and above all other countries. That was the case once, but we are now behind many countries in education and health care.

Just to clarify something here... American exceptionalism doesn't mean Americans think they are above all other countries. You've misconstrued the term if that's what you think it means.

We are "exceptional" because of our system of government. Our founding principle is based on inalienable human rights endowed by our Creator and not man. This makes us exceptional because our rights cannot be denied by man.

 

[Wuwei]

Just to clarify something here... American exceptionalism doesn't mean Americans think they are above all other countries. You've misconstrued the term if that's what you think it means.

We are "exceptional" because of our system of government. Our founding principle is based on inalienable human rights endowed by our Creator and not man. This makes us exceptional because our rights cannot be denied by man.

American exceptionalism has different slants depending on the historian, politician, pundit or man on the street. Many think of it as a justified chauvinism.

 

[Boss]

Just to clarify something here... American exceptionalism doesn't mean Americans think they are above all other countries. You've misconstrued the term if that's what you think it means.

We are "exceptional" because of our system of government. Our founding principle is based on inalienable human rights endowed by our Creator and not man. This makes us exceptional because our rights cannot be denied by man.

American exceptionalism has different slants depending on the historian, politician, pundit or man on the street. Many think of it as a justified chauvinism.

Well the first know usage of the term was from Alexis de Tocqueville around 1840:

The position of the Americans is therefore quite exceptional, and it may be believed that no democratic people will ever be placed in a similar one. Their strictly Puritanical origin, their exclusively commercial habits, even the country they inhabit, which seems to divert their minds from the pursuit of science, literature, and the arts, the proximity of Europe, which allows them to neglect these pursuits without relapsing into barbarism, a thousand special causes, of which I have only been able to point out the most important, have singularly concurred to fix the mind of the American upon purely practical objects. His passions, his wants, his education, and everything about him seem to unite in drawing the native of the United States earthward; his religion alone bids him turn, from time to time, a transient and distracted glance to heaven. Let us cease, then, to view all democratic nations under the example of the American people.

Certainly, this idea has been articulated in many different ways through the years by various sources. I can't claim that it is a purified statement that has never meant anything else to anyone else. Although the concept is rooted in our founding principles it is not some self-imposed proclamation of superiority.

 

[Wuwei]

Yes, I read Tocqueville. He seems to praise the early Americans in one sense, and then scoff at them for lack of interest in literature, arts, and science. Of course life was harder in the US than it was for the more culturally established Europeans.

 

[Boss]

Yes, I read Tocqueville. He seems to praise the early Americans in one sense, and then scoff at them for lack of interest in literature, arts, and science. Of course life was harder in the US than it was for the more culturally established Europeans.

My point was, this is not a phrase Americans concocted to laud their superiority over others. It is often misconstrued as such and I simply wanted to set the record straight. Our "American Exceptionalism" is derived from our uniqueness in government and founding principles.

 

[Wuwei]

My point was, this is not a phrase Americans concocted to laud their superiority over others. It is often misconstrued as such and I simply wanted to set the record straight. Our "American Exceptionalism" is derived from our uniqueness in government and founding principles.

Yes, I agree. But it seems that the phrase has been taken over and the original meaning has been changed by some of the more current pundits.

 

[zaangalewa]

Most Americans think the USA is exceptional, and above all other countries. That was the case once, but we are now behind many countries in education and health care.

Just to clarify something here... American exceptionalism doesn't mean Americans think they are above all other countries.

"You" think for example you have the right to get every information about every citizen of the European Union. But "you" never would send the same data about your citizens to the European Union.

You've misconstrued the term if that's what you think it means.

We are "exceptional" because of our system of government. Our founding principle is based on inalienable human rights endowed by our Creator and not man. This makes us exceptional because our rights cannot be denied by man.

A million abortions a year in the USA are reducing the average lifetime in the USA drastically. I guess from about 80 years down to 50 years. Is this not a very heavy fight against "the creation" or "the universal power" or "life itselve" or "the logos" or whatever word we are using for "the creator"? The USA denies in many ways the right to live. So what is it worth to say: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, ..."

 

[zaangalewa]

My point was, this is not a phrase Americans concocted to laud their superiority over others. It is often misconstrued as such and I simply wanted to set the record straight. Our "American Exceptionalism" is derived from our uniqueness in government and founding principles.

Yes, I agree. But it seems that the phrase has been taken over and the original meaning has been changed by some of the more current pundits.

May I ask what's your own nationality?

 

[there4eyeM]

Much easier to explain an ordered universe without a 'creator' than to explain a creator without a universe.

 

[there4eyeM]

Abortions cannot reduce life expectancy; this can't even make sense in German.

 

[Wuwei]

My point was, this is not a phrase Americans concocted to laud their superiority over others. It is often misconstrued as such and I simply wanted to set the record straight. Our "American Exceptionalism" is derived from our uniqueness in government and founding principles.

Yes, I agree. But it seems that the phrase has been taken over and the original meaning has been changed by some of the more current pundits.

May I ask what's your own nationality? And is this important for you?

I'm American. I don't believe America is "exceptional" in the current meaning of the word.

 

[Boss]

"You" think for example you have the right to get every information about every citizen of the European Union. But "you" never would send the same data about your citizens to the European Union.

As far as I know, we are allies with everyone in the EU. I don't really know what you're talking about but our government is so incompetent now that they can't do anything even if they have all the information on someone... the FBI had the Orlando shooter in for questioning TWICE and look what happened there. Half our society thinks we should empty Gitmo and let mentally disturbed men use women's restrooms.

A million abortions a year in the USA are reducing the average lifetime in the USA drastically. I guess from about 80 years down to 50 years. Is this not a very heavy fight against "the creation" or "the universal power" or "life itselve" or "the logos" or whatever word we are using for "the creator"? The USA denies in many ways the right to live. So what is it worth to say: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, ..."

And you'll notice also, on this very forum, there are quite a few of us who are opposed to this injustice and want it changed.

 

[zaangalewa]

My point was, this is not a phrase Americans concocted to laud their superiority over others. It is often misconstrued as such and I simply wanted to set the record straight. Our "American Exceptionalism" is derived from our uniqueness in government and founding principles.

Yes, I agree. But it seems that the phrase has been taken over and the original meaning has been changed by some of the more current pundits.

May I ask what's your own nationality? And is this important for you?

I'm American. I don't believe America is "exceptional" in the current meaning of the word.

The USA is "exceptional" - but only Americans think they are "god owns country". No one else in the world thinks so - specially not the christains of other countries. Nevertheless "gods own country" became a kind of synonyme, a phrase. Often used very negative - sometimes positive.

A turkish Lady here said once to me: "If you travel in a country then you know after 4 weeks everything about this country and the mentality of the people - but I live now 40 years here. I don't know Germany any longer - I am a German who knows some Germans and also some people from other countries. They all are different people."

 

[zaangalewa]

"You" think for example you have the right to get every information about every citizen of the European Union. But "you" never would send the same data about your citizens to the European Union.

As far as I know, we are allies with everyone in the EU. I don't really know what you're talking about but our government is so incompetent now that they can't do anything even if they have all the information on someone... the FBI had the Orlando shooter in for questioning TWICE and look what happened there. Half our society thinks we should empty Gitmo and let mentally disturbed men use women's restrooms.

Every information of every european government about the own citizens, every transaction with money in banks, every information about travels with tickets, every production and movement of goods with papers and so on and so on will automatically transferred to the secret services of the USA. And I don't have any idea why the concentration camp Guantanamo is still open. Close it. Best day to do so: yesterday. And are Germans in general "mentally disturbed" so we all are allowed to ... ? We can live in a nation without men and public restrooms for women and nearly-women.

A million abortions a year in the USA are reducing the average lifetime in the USA drastically. I guess from about 80 years down to 50 years. Is this not a very heavy fight against "the creation" or "the universal power" or "life itselve" or "the logos" or whatever word we are using for "the creator"? The USA denies in many ways the right to live. So what is it worth to say: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, ..."

And you'll notice also, on this very forum, there are quite a few of us who are opposed to this injustice and want it changed.

This gives me a little hope.

 

[Boss]

Every information of every european government about the own citizens, every transaction with money in banks, every information about travels with tickets, every production and movement of goods, every phone call and so on and so on will automatically transferred from the EU to the secret services of the USA. And I don't have any idea why the concentration camp Guantanamo is still open. Close it. Best day to do so: yesterday.

And where should we send all the terrorists currently residing in Gitmo? Germany?

It is NOT a concentration camp. It is a place where we can detain enemies of state without the risk of bringing them into our country. I think it serves a valid purpose and does so well, which is why even Obama wasn't able to close it.

And I still don't understand your insistence that the "secret services" of the US are getting "automatic transfers" of information from the EU on every citizen.... that's just absolute bullshit.